13:02:32 RRSAgent has joined #wot-td 13:02:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-wot-td-irc 13:02:42 rrsagent, set logs public 13:02:42 Zakim has joined #wot-td 13:02:52 meeting: Thing description task force 13:03:17 chair: Darko Anicic 13:03:29 michael has joined #wot-td 13:03:29 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-ig/2015Nov/0021.html 13:03:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:03:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 13:04:42 So far so good! 13:05:07 webex not starting? 13:05:39 dape has joined #wot-td 13:06:37 taki1 has joined #wot-td 13:06:56 present+ Kaz_Ashimura 13:06:56 present+ Dave 13:07:07 present+ taki 13:07:10 present+ Daniel_Peintner 13:07:12 present+DarkoAnicic 13:07:12 kawaguch has joined #wot-td 13:07:13 ryuichi has joined #wot-td 13:07:13 present+ Yingying 13:07:22 present+ DarkoAnicic 13:07:26 Victor has joined #wot-td 13:07:31 scribenick: dsr 13:07:42 present+ Toru_Kawaguchi 13:08:29 Darko: I would like to recap where we got to at the Sapporo face to face. 13:08:42 [just in case: Kaz, Dave, Darko, aparna, Daniel, Frank, Katsuyoshi, Kotakagi, Ryuichi, Taki, Toru, Victor, Yingying] 13:08:44 He presents a summary slide 13:09:19 -> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-wot-minutes.html f2f minutes (still need to be tidied up) 13:09:22 agenda+ to discuss limitations of open world assumption for data models 13:10:12 stakagi has joined #wot-td 13:11:30 Darko summarises the plug-fest. Some 8 or 9 implementations. Focus on using thing description as a basis for interoperability 13:12:01 These descriptions were made available on GitHub 13:12:45 The use case centered on an RGB lamp 13:13:39 We had some 14 different thing description files. Almost all using REST. For next time we should have some none REST based approaches too, 13:15:20 Some discussion on additional semantics and on hypermedia controls. We could discuss this in future calls. 13:15:37 Let us know if you want to raise this. 13:15:54 For the next plug-fest, we want to hear your ideas. 13:16:29 q+ 13:16:37 ack kaz 13:17:13 kaz: do you want to mention the IRTF T2TRG interest in participating in a joint plug-fest exercise 13:17:38 Darko: yes, they would like us to organise a joint meeting for that. 13:17:40 q+ 13:17:57 -> http://www.w3.org/2015/11/01-wot-minutes.html IRTF joint meeting minutes (still need to be cleaned up) 13:18:33 T2TRG are working on HATEOAS and approaches to representing resources 13:19:16 We discussed that the HATEOAS approach should be supplemented with a thing description 13:19:30 ack dsr 13:20:14 dsr: had a meeting with OIC open source group about collaboration 13:20:36 darko: would you invite them to the TD call? or the whole IG call? 13:20:49 dsr: they have some resource description 13:21:07 ... and binding for protocols 13:21:16 ... that's one thing to consider 13:21:32 ... there are interested in following the TF work 13:21:48 ... would come with some representation 13:21:57 s/would/might/ 13:22:16 darko: another point from the Yokohama joint meeting 13:22:41 ... prepare for the next plugfest during our IG calls 13:22:53 ... mapping, thing description, etc. 13:23:13 ... inviting them to our calls would be useful for the preparation for the next plugfest 13:23:13 Dave: we should consider what it would take to transform between different representations — what problems emerge - what is present or absent in each representation 13:23:28 i/had a meeting/scribenick: kaz/ 13:23:36 i/we should/scribenick: dsr/ 13:24:39 Darko summarises the break out session. The first part covered the feedback from the plugfest, and the second covered the relevance of EXI for efficient message encoding 13:25:05 http://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Breakout_topics_30-10-2015 13:25:09 katsu has joined #wot-td 13:26:17 We also heard some results for data compaction using different approaches 13:27:37 These were raw JSON, CBOR and EXI4JSON. The latter compresses raw JSON to a quarter of the size. 13:27:52 (for the test messages) 13:28:41 dsr: it's question of computation as well, so could be 3-dimensional score 13:29:09 Dave: we should try to compare the encodings on three dimensions: message size, RAM and CPU resource requirements. 13:29:26 Sebastian: Yes, that would be desirable for future work. 13:29:51 Darko: how could that be done? 13:30:44 Sebastian: in the EXI WG we set up a test framework and measure the time needed to process the test files. 13:31:02 Dave: I agree, measuring the RAM usage is a little harder but doable. 13:31:44 Daniel: how was the conversion from JSON to EXI4JSON done? 13:32:17 Sebastian: there are techniques for mapping JSON to XML. 13:33:09 Daniel: why didn’t you go JSON-LD to XML-RDF and then to EXI? 13:34:28 s/Daniel/Darko/g 13:34:35 s/Sebastian/Daniel/g 13:35:26 Dave: I have done some experiments myself on efficient encodings and would be happy to report on that in future 13:35:56 Darko: okay when you are ready, we can put it on the agenda 13:36:23 Darko: any other comments/questions? [no] 13:36:56 Darko switches the topic to the part of the break out on extending thing descriptions with additional context 13:38:13 We talked about addition domain dependent and domain independent context info 13:40:24 -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/master/TF-TD/TD%20Samples/brightnessProximitySensor.jsonld brightnessProximitySensor.jsonld 13:40:28 An example is “who are you”. A name is insufficient unless you relate it to an ontology with further background 13:41:10 s/addition/additional/ 13:41:48 Darko presents a layer cake diagram for contextual semantic models 13:42:25 q+ 13:42:28 ack dsr 13:43:32 Dave: provided we have a way to map terms in the JSON to Linked data URLs we have plenty of flexibility 13:44:20 Darko: some people looking at thing description examples have missed this point 13:44:57 Michael: how do we use semantic models that describe things via ontologies 13:45:31 schema.org is a web resource with vocabularies covering range and domain. 13:45:34 s/Yingying]/Yingying, Michael]/ 13:45:45 It is a little looser than OWL ontologies 13:46:33 Darko: schema.org is widely used and we could look at how to exploit it 13:46:59 We should elaborate some examples as a basis to explain what is possible 13:47:18 This could be a goal for future plugfests 13:48:44 Michael: ontologies allow us to have scalable descriptions 13:50:38 darko: during the encoding process, useful to handle mapping with existing model 13:51:23 ... what I mean here is application model is something specific to apps 13:51:45 ... some particular application domain like smart home 13:52:16 ... maybe that layer is not in scope of our (=WoT IG) standardization 13:53:35 victor: in the api tf, people are also talking about that 13:53:55 ... so kind of strange to hear application model layer is out of scope 13:54:07 ... maybe a bit different name should be assigned to avoid confusion 13:54:27 dsr: vertical domestic meta data? 13:55:02 s/domestic/domain/ 13:55:18 i/encoding process/scribenick: kaz 13:55:55 scribenick: dsr 13:56:28 Michael: there are existing organisations that are working on domain specific vocabularies 13:57:23 Darko: we should also look at other approaches e.g. HATEOAS, Hydra, RESTdesc, RAML, etc. 13:58:24 Dave: can we clarify how these compare to the role of RDF as a general metadata framework? 13:59:11 Darko: our current thing description examples lack details on which protocols can be used with specific properties 13:59:50 s/Daniel: how was/Victor: how was/ 13:59:53 These other approaches are at a lower level and offer such specificity for protocol usage 14:00:35 Michael expands on the kinds of metadata involved 14:00:49 … the notion of APIs goes away 14:01:40 Dave: do you mean we should give applications direct access to lower layers in the abstraction stack? 14:01:43 Michael: yes 14:02:16 katsu has joined #wot-td 14:03:43 Dave: the ability to enable apps to be decoupled from the transfer and transport layers is made practical through rich communications metadata that servers can exploit to suit the context 14:04:01 present+ Katsuyoshi_Naka 14:04:09 DanhLePhuoc has joined #wot-td 14:04:23 Darko runs through the mapping from thing descriptions to REST 14:04:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:04:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:05:42 The choice of REST methods can be determined based upon the thing description 14:06:15 Michael: given that we need to embrace a wide range of existing systems, then giving the server the means to adapt has value 14:07:32 http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015/SessionIdeas#Space.2C_Time_and_Sensor_Semantics_in_the_Web_of_Things 14:07:38 Louay has joined #wot-td 14:07:47 Darko switches to the cross group meetings that took place in Sapporo, e.g. with the automotive and spatial data groups 14:09:09 Kerry Taylor and colleagues talked to us about space, time, and sensor semantics. The spatial data on the web WG plan to standardise the semantic sensor network ontology 14:09:33 s/Michael]/Michael, Arne, Danh, Louay]/ 14:09:37 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:09:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:10:22 -> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-wot-minutes.html IRC minutes (to be cleaned up) 14:10:38 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:10:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz 14:11:18 Darko: the last thing on my agenda is the tech landscape which we need to start work on 14:11:23 i/I would like to recap/@@@Darko's slides@@@/ 14:12:22 Darko: I have started a wiki page as a collector. This has a table with columns for various critiera 14:12:33 s/critiera/criteria/ 14:12:42 -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wot-TD_Tech_Landscape TF-TD Tech Landscape 14:13:54 We could have several such tables 14:16:45 Dave: I would recommend that we have a separate summary for each approach. We could check these with the originating organization. The tables are great but too constraining to be the whole thing. 14:16:52 Michael: I agree 14:17:17 Darko: so you will do that the IPSO, right? 14:17:36 Michael: once I have joined the group, so I get write access to the wiki, right. 14:17:55 agenda? 14:18:18 Darko: any further comments/suggestions? [no] 14:19:40 Dave: we want to include people’s names as a reward and to enable peer pressure on finishing each task 14:20:32 Darko: we need volunteers … 14:21:56 Dave: one suggestion is to switch to GitHub and use markdown, so that people can use pull requests and we can track issues more easily 14:22:23 I would do this once we have clarified that document structure 14:22:51 Kaz: during the face to face we have several volunteers 14:23:22 count me in for Thing description 14:23:55 Dave: suggests doing a poll to see who knows about which approaches as a stepping stone to signing people up as volunteers. 14:24:36 and also 2.Metadata model 14:25:02 arne has joined #wot-td 14:25:41 agenda? 14:28:50 Darko: we will discuss and track the tech landscape study in this call 14:29:06 Dan: if we have the volunteer’s names on the wiki that would help 14:30:00 Darko: okay, but we need further volunteers 14:30:32 … end of meeting … 14:30:40 rrsagent, make minutes 14:30:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-wot-td-minutes.html dsr 14:30:51 taki1 has left #wot-td 14:35:02 kotakagi has joined #wot-td 15:26:25 yingying has joined #wot-td