16:47:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
16:47:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-pf-irc
16:47:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:47:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
16:47:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:47:45 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:47:46 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:47:46 <trackbot> Date: 11 November 2015
16:47:46 <janina> agenda?
16:47:51 <janina> agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
16:47:51 <janina> agenda+ APA Charter Impact http://www.w3.org/2015/10/apa-charter.html
16:47:51 <janina> agenda+ RQTF Organization -- Markku Hakkinen
16:47:51 <janina> agenda+ Long Text Mechanism Resolution [See Below]
16:47:52 <janina> agenda+ ARIA and the future of W3C Accessibility
16:47:53 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review (Specs) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open
16:47:56 <janina> agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html
16:47:58 <janina> agenda+ Community Groups http://www.w3.org/community/groups/
16:48:01 <janina> agenda+ MAUR Note Status Update
16:48:03 <janina> agenda+ HTML 5.1 Alt Edits -- https://w3c.github.io/alt-techniques/
16:48:06 <janina> agenda+  Other Task Force Updates; COGA; HTML-A11Y;
16:48:08 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
16:48:11 <janina> agenda+ next and future meetings http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273
16:48:14 <janina> agenda+ be done
16:49:03 <janina>  zakim, remove item 3
16:49:03 <Zakim> agendum 3, RQTF Organization -- Markku Hakkinen, dropped
16:49:18 <janina> agenda?
16:57:26 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #PF
16:58:11 <janina> Hi, It's 647 857 439 passwd pfwg
16:59:03 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #pf
16:59:15 <tzviya> it worked this time with a captcha
16:59:27 <janina> argh, captcha?
16:59:31 <fesch> fesch has joined #pf
16:59:58 <fesch> Janina what is the meeting paswword?
17:00:11 <janina> 647 857 439 passwd pfwg
17:01:04 <tzviya> present+ TzviyaSiegman
17:01:11 <janina> present+ janina
17:01:32 <janina> present+ Jason_White
17:03:19 <fesch> present+ fesch
17:03:51 <janina> Leonie, it's lower case pfwg for the password, but there may be a captcha problem that's newly shown up too
17:04:11 <janina> You might rather want to ask for a call out via your mobile
17:04:18 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
17:08:24 <janina> regrets: Gottfried, John_Foliot, Markku
17:08:58 <fesch> scribe: fesch
17:09:07 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:09:07 <Zakim> agendum 1. "preview agenda with items from two minutes" taken up [from janina]
17:09:13 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
17:09:34 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
17:10:02 <fesch> js: anyone with news, items?
17:10:09 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:10:09 <Zakim> agendum 2. "APA Charter Impact http://www.w3.org/2015/10/apa-charter.html" taken up [from janina]
17:10:10 <MichaelC> regrets: James_Nurthen, Gottfried_Zimmerman, John_Foliot, Michiel_Bijl
17:10:16 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0061.html
17:11:16 <fesch> js: #1 thing, everyone needs to sign up for the new working group (APA), PF will expire...
17:12:12 <joanie> q+ To ask if we'll all be auto-subscribed to the new list when most of us have joined
17:12:15 <fesch> js: newer things will move over, new mailing list..., not moving to new mailing list until most members are moved over would be counter productive, please get your transition underway
17:12:45 <fesch> js: may be end of year before we cut over, ARIA will get similar message tomorrow
17:13:39 <fesch> mc: we will have a change of infrastructure.... will get it worked out over the next few weeks (Rich, Janina, MC)
17:13:40 <janina> ack joa
17:13:40 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask if we'll all be auto-subscribed to the new list when most of us have joined
17:14:31 <fesch> js: yes (we will be auto-subscribed to new group, when we join new group)
17:14:54 <fesch> zakim, nest item
17:14:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'nest item', fesch
17:15:12 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:15:12 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Long Text Mechanism Resolution" taken up [from See Below]
17:17:15 <fesch> js: Rich are you here?  I think Rich is wrong in initial post on details,  we know Chrome and Safari have support, Mozilla has it underway, thinking MS Edge will
17:17:50 <fesch> js: 2nd item, issue of making details visible, believe we can do that via CSS
17:19:11 <fesch> js: 3rd issue - how we disambiguate use of details  - no mechanism, so not quite there yet, think unfortunate aspect is if we do it with ARIA then restricting to users of AT
17:19:51 <fesch> js: some of use cases we were given don't use AT (COGA, keyboard only user...)
17:20:10 <tzviya> q+
17:20:17 <janina> ack t
17:20:30 <fesch> js: without a non ARIA use we may be similar to...
17:20:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #pf
17:20:44 <Ryladog> Ryladog has joined #pf
17:20:59 <janina> Rich, lower case pfwg
17:21:03 <fesch> tz: aria may be broader use than AT
17:21:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> did that. will try again
17:21:14 <Ryladog> I have the same question
17:21:22 <fesch> jw: is it correct to say a details element can use CSS?
17:21:54 <fesch> js: you can, but that doesn't discriminate between use - advertisement vs dscription
17:22:07 <fesch> s/dsc/desc/
17:22:27 <fesch> jw: you could style differently using CSS
17:22:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
17:22:46 <Ryladog> Present+ Katie Haritos-Shea
17:22:56 <fesch> jw: web controls allow us to do that, Mark H showed a demo
17:23:25 <fesch> js: talking about details
17:23:55 <tzviya> q+ to say that these are not new requirements
17:23:56 <fesch> js: we haven't found a way to disambiguate between uses
17:24:10 <MichaelC> present+ Rich, Cynthia, Katie
17:24:13 <fesch> rs: requirements keep growing ... where does it end?
17:24:32 <janina> ack tz
17:24:32 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say that these are not new requirements
17:24:40 <fesch> tz: these are the same requirements, we talked about them in the past
17:25:00 <fesch> rs: we didn't talk about them
17:25:19 <fesch> tz: we gave broad examples, not every use case in the publishing world
17:25:36 <fesch> rs: describedat won't do what you want, that is off the table
17:25:57 <fesch> rs: when you have an iframe, why do you need pagination?
17:26:04 <fesch> tz: that is off topic...
17:26:17 <fesch> rs: that was a reason we couldn't use it
17:26:55 <fesch> tz: I will have to go back to Daniel about that... I think he is concerned about widgets in iframes....
17:27:26 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #pf
17:27:51 <fesch> tz: Daniel entered in the middle of the conversation... Janinia brought up, need a way to disambiguate usage
17:28:20 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:28:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-pf-minutes.html jamesn
17:28:42 <fesch> js: perhaps we could use a aria tag ...  but want non AT users to benefit too
17:29:17 <fesch> js: don't know if there will be a rush to implement ARIA for all users - in ereaders
17:30:00 <fesch> js: are ebook reader's going to implement aria for use outside supporting AT?
17:30:28 <fesch> tz: I can't speak for the platform developers, most are on top of a browser implementation
17:30:54 <fesch> rs: all dpub readers support HTML 5 markup - all based on web browser technology
17:31:09 <fesch> js: so data is available to them, if they want to take advantage of it
17:31:14 <fesch> rs: yes
17:31:57 <fesch> tz: may happen, but will depend on underlying technology
17:32:43 <fesch> js: we haven't found how to disambiguate - other users may see the link but won't know if it is a description or advertisement
17:33:17 <fesch> rs: for Diagram project, wanted to crowd source that is why they wanted a URL
17:33:39 <janina> q?
17:33:49 <fesch> tz: that wasn't forwarded by dpub, we have a formal document...
17:34:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ok
17:34:19 <tzviya> DPUB requirements for extended desc: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Publisher_requirements_for_extended_descriptions
17:34:20 <fesch> rs:: we take requirements from more than dpub
17:34:57 <LJWatson> q+
17:35:09 <fesch> js: how can we disambiguate? Looking for suggestions
17:35:42 <fesch> rs: we could have a detailed view, sections - regular description, detailed description
17:36:06 <fesch> rs: I heard that having a URL was a requirement - is that a requirement?
17:36:53 <fesch> rs: I don't want to rule out iframes...
17:37:08 <janina> q?
17:37:21 <fesch> tz: at TPAC MC said we would look at the table he put together, look at options and put to group
17:37:59 <fesch> mc: I was going to harmonize the table from feedback from TPAC, Jason and private discussions,   haven't done that yet
17:38:21 <fesch> mc: only a couple options seem viable from use cases
17:38:38 <fesch> lw: we have a definitive set of requirements?
17:38:57 <fesch> mc: I have a table, don't know if it is definitive
17:39:18 <fesch> lw: if we don't know the requirements.... makes it hard to work out solution...
17:39:51 <fesch> lw: does it mean there is no consensus on requirements
17:40:26 <fesch> rs: describedat won't do it   - will have an item on ARIA call tomorrow
17:41:42 <tzviya> Michael's long analysis: http://www.w3.org/2015/08/extended-description-analysis.html
17:41:45 <fesch> js: number one question about tables are they representational?  If not, then the table won't help us make a decision
17:42:26 <fesch> js: we know about unadded changes... details is best option, how to disambiguate use?
17:43:52 <fesch> jw: mentioned on list - use CSS for visual, can't apply styles to underlying to shadow DOM element - if you can't do it then it would rule out using CSS ...
17:44:20 <MichaelC> q+
17:44:24 <fesch> jw: web components don't have that problem... Mark H has demoed this
17:44:47 <fesch> jw: can use web components to satisfy  requirements
17:45:16 <fesch> js: it is unclear what support web components will get?
17:45:54 <fesch> jw: I think that is clear, but capabilities of web components are greater
17:46:03 <tzviya> q+ to mention http://caniuse.com/#search=custom
17:46:11 <janina> q?
17:46:25 <fesch> js: web components are one, web annotations are another, need support now
17:46:44 <fesch> jw: may not get everything immediately
17:47:15 <fesch> jw: if can use CSS to handle visually different, that would handle the disambiguation issues
17:47:26 <janina> ack l
17:47:30 <janina> ack m
17:48:38 <fesch> mc: what details doesn't do - is disambiguate, could use class='description" but that would be a convention, so support a role..
17:48:50 <fesch> mc: might have to add a role to ARIA
17:49:24 <fesch> rs: I don't think I would use role='description' , we have a role...
17:49:45 <fesch> mc: don't care what the role is - just as long as there is a role
17:49:45 <janina> ack t
17:49:45 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to mention http://caniuse.com/#search=custom
17:50:44 <fesch> tz: dpub is neutral, web components have limited support, apple did not commit to supporting web components (unless it is well supported)
17:51:01 <fesch> js: that is what I am trying to convey to Jason...
17:51:14 <fesch> mc: are the implemented? are they easy to use?
17:51:23 <janina> q?
17:51:48 <fesch> mc: if we fill in web components with no, no, no then it will fail the test, but have the capability to pass later
17:53:52 <fesch> fe: I like something that disambiguated roles
17:54:11 <fesch> mc: I think this is a question for ARIA
17:54:50 <fesch> js: sounds like answer is yes, do we need to worry about styling?
17:55:11 <fesch> mc: want styling on a universally predictable thing
17:56:07 <fesch> js: is it reasonable to ask ARIA for a thing to disambiguate roles?
17:56:27 <fesch> rs: you can ask.... trying to get ARIA 1.1 out...
17:56:27 <janina> q?
17:57:05 <fesch> jw: Mark H will work on prototypes using details and migrate to web components
17:57:31 <janina> q?
17:57:32 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-pf-minutes.html fesch
17:58:08 <fesch> rs: where are we on the IRC?
17:58:45 <fesch> js: talked about this earlier.... IRC may switch earlier, email later -
17:59:02 <fesch> mc: no need for ARIA to switch IRC :)
17:59:32 <fesch> rrsagent, make minutes
17:59:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/11/11-pf-minutes.html fesch