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00:39:35 <yingying> https://mit.webex.com/mw3000/mywebex/default.do?service=1&siteurl=mit&nomenu=true&main_url=%2Fmc3000%2Fe.do%3Fsiteurl%3Dmit%26AT%3DMI%26EventID%3D388391827%26UID%3D512661617%26Host%3DQUhTSwAAAAIIP6GY417ZVwB_7-wmsPiwJRBBJObCAxTtu8ihZFPHLKShvd6Xd_baDhA45Ywhx-J-4ZDhonilKDacTKh1B5Oz0%26FrameSet%3D2%26MTID%3Dmbb1ef91548ad10d73d58806deb6901d9
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00:40:22 <yingying> scribe: yingying
00:41:16 <yingying> Johanes: ask people to introduce themselves on the webEx dailling in.
00:41:35 <yingying> ...We will start the breakout.
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00:42:01 <yingying> Topic: RESTful Design for Internet of Things Systems (Ari)
00:42:19 <yingying> slides->https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/images/e/e4/W3c-wot-tpac2015_t2trg-rest-iot-00.pdf
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00:43:41 <yingying> Chair: Johannes
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00:44:01 <Claes> Present+ Claes_Nilsson
00:44:06 <yingying> Ari: introduces the RESTful design
00:45:12 <jhund> Present+ Johannes_Hund
00:45:54 <ddahl> Present+ Debbie_Dahl
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00:47:47 <yingying> Ari shows the goal of the document, the background and the status.
00:48:40 <yingying> Ari: this is the very starting point of discussion. Your contributions are welcome.
00:50:24 <yingying> ...comments on terms are welcome.
00:51:20 <yingying> ...if you have already read the document? is there anything we need to discuss more?
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00:53:02 <yingying> ...components in system: client and server can change the role.
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00:53:29 <Raj> present+ Raj
00:54:16 <stakagi> present+ stakagi
00:55:02 <kotakagi> present+ kotakagi
00:55:38 <yingying> ...application state: session state with client only, resource state.
00:56:16 <yingying> Nilsson: could you explain the resource state?
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00:57:39 <yingying> Ari: I would appreciate your opinion on it.
00:58:45 <yingying> @@@1: sometime it's difficult to know the state of client.
00:59:13 <yingying> Ari: Yes, especially when client /server changes the role.
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01:01:03 <yingying> Joerg: it's not easy to clarify the session state and resource state. How are they related to application state.
01:01:15 <yingying> Ari: concrete use case would be appreciated.
01:01:31 <kawaguch> present+ Toru_Kawaguchi
01:01:40 <yingying> ...we will discuss it in IRTF meeting.
01:02:17 <yingying> Ari explains UIR.
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01:04:57 <yingying> Johannes: Do you have an example that only  the scheme is different while other parts are the same?
01:05:06 <yingying> Ari:@@@@@@1
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01:09:13 <yingying> @@@2: there are various contexts that need to take into account.
01:10:52 <yingying> Dave: how would the upper level abstraction? is there any consideration?
01:11:53 <yingying> why should we use it for web of things context?
01:12:07 <yingying> s/why/...why
01:15:06 <yingying> Ari: safe/Idempotent methods.
01:16:31 <yingying> ...simplest one is GET.
01:17:46 <yingying> ...POST method: not safe nor idempotent.
01:19:44 <yingying> ...PUT method: idempotent.
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01:22:12 <yingying> ...DELETE method
01:22:15 <yingying> ...comments.
01:23:16 <yingying> Johannes: in the plugfest, we use DELETE to cancel the execution. Why do you guy do it? We use it.
01:24:31 <yingying> Ari: modifying properties of resources with methods.
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01:26:16 <yingying> Nilsson:confused about PUT and POST. example please.
01:27:02 <yingying> Dave: PUSH and PATCH
01:34:17 <yingying> Ari: PUT or POST is not a clear cut.
01:35:09 <yingying> Johannes: example of light bulb. set on or off, use PUT; set fading, suggest POST.
01:36:36 <yingying> Louay: We have actions on services and resources at the same time. How to handle it?
01:37:35 <yingying> Ari: Actuation is less obvious at the moment.
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01:39:01 <yingying> Johannes: request Ari to send out the topics for further discussion in the mailing list.
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01:41:16 <yingying> Topic: Tech landscape, next steps and milestones
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01:43:25 <yingying> ->https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Mapping_of_tech_landscape_to_IoT_approaches
01:44:02 <yingying> Johannes: request for volunteers to fill in the landscape mapping.
01:44:46 <yingying> Nilsson: volunteer for IIC
01:44:58 <yingying> Louay: @@@@@@@
01:45:31 <yingying> @@3: @@@@@@@1
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01:45:48 <yingying> s/@@@@@@@/AIOTI
01:46:35 <yingying> s/ @@3: @@@@@@@1//
01:46:49 <yingying> people volunteer to fill in the table.
01:47:29 <Claes> s/Nilsson: volunteer for IIC/Claes volunteer for AllSeen
01:47:53 <kaz> s/Claes volunteer/Claes: volunteer/
01:48:15 <kaz> i/people/kajimoto: volunteer for Echonet/
01:48:19 <yingying> Johannes: will do a temporary freeze on wiki and transfer materials to GitHub.
01:50:12 <yingying> Johannes: explains the table colunms
01:50:29 <ryuichi> volunteer for oneM2M
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01:51:35 <yingying> Joerg: suggest to put some criteria for each aspects.
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01:52:41 <yingying> Dave: suggest to add one free column when not feed into.
01:58:29 <yingying> Johannes: hope to fill in the whole table by end of the year.
01:59:18 <yingying> Topic: Document status
01:59:27 <yingying> -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/APIs_and_Protocols_TF#Documents_and_deliverables
01:59:59 <stakagi> At least, multiple parties thought that the sensor or Low Level Device API for web browser and were related to WoT, and have proposed it yesterday.
02:00:44 <stakagi> I think that WoT IG should search for it within a certain framework (TF etc.).
02:02:43 <yingying> Johannes: THe purpose of the topic is that we need to make a decision on which documents we would like to actively maintain.
02:03:15 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
02:03:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
02:03:28 <kaz> s/THe/The/
02:03:47 <yingying> ...1st doc is  architecture model. How should we proceed with this document?
02:04:30 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
02:04:31 <yingying> ...should we put it alive or just archive it?
02:04:37 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
02:04:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
02:05:30 <kaz> ryuichi: thinking about concrete/comprehensive implementation model is good
02:05:57 <kaz> Meeting: WoT AP Breakout
02:06:06 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
02:06:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
02:06:24 <kaz> claes: architecture?
02:06:42 <kaz> johannes: we don't have architecture as a target in the charter
02:06:57 <kaz> joerg: actually, there is some description on architecture within the charter :)
02:07:21 <kaz> -> http://www.w3.org/2014/12/wot-ig-charter.html#deliverables WoT IG Charter
02:10:01 <yingying> Johannes: what is the tooling for architeture docs?
02:10:17 <yingying> Dave:there is tooling for specification.
02:10:37 <yingying> Johannes: How to move forward?
02:12:25 <kaz> (some discussion on how to deal with the document)
02:13:13 <kaz> johannes: would start a document with this picture and Kajimoto-san's implementation model
02:13:19 <kaz> ... any volunteer?
02:13:24 <kaz> kajimoto: will do
02:13:48 <kaz> johannes: you should ask people for help
02:13:58 <kaz> s/should/can/
02:14:29 <kaz> ... gh-pages branch is directly accessible as an HTML
02:15:08 <kaz> ... next, we have Web Thing API proposal from COMPOSE
02:15:18 <kaz> claes: official input to W3C
02:15:26 <kaz> johannes: meaning a submission?
02:15:28 <kaz> claes: yes
02:15:53 <kaz> johannes: this link (to COMPOSE proposal) links to GitHub now
02:16:07 <kaz> ... and will be the one for that submission in the future
02:16:55 <kaz> ... and add an entry for COMPOSE to the Conso table
02:17:13 <kaz> ... next, FOKUS
02:17:21 <kaz> ... there is a space on GitHub
02:17:51 <kaz> ... make sense to have a place on the APIs
02:18:09 <kaz> ... (w3c/wot/TF-AP/thing-api on GitHub)
02:18:32 <kaz> louay: landscape lists something like presentation api
02:18:48 <kaz> ... how to apply those apis to wot?
02:19:11 <kaz> ... can put all the examples
02:19:19 <kaz> johannes: great
02:19:44 <kaz> ... accessing APIs should also be added to the landscape doc?
02:19:47 <kaz> louay: yes
02:19:55 <kaz> johannes: where to put all the info?
02:20:05 <kaz> ... should create a place on GitHub now?
02:20:15 <kaz> ... what's the good method?
02:21:11 <kaz> joerg: a possibility is putting all the deliverables together
02:22:03 <kaz> johannes: until we reach the final stage (=can ask people to refer to the doc), simpler approach would be better
02:24:55 <kaz> louay: WebIDL, security model, user interaction, etc.
02:25:05 <kaz> ... all the discussions should go into one document
02:26:06 <kaz> johannes: yes, but what would be the appropriate structure?
02:26:40 <kaz> joerg: the closest deliverable is a guideline in the Charter
02:27:07 <kaz> johannes: need an action
02:27:40 <kaz> ... next, Interaction model and Protocol mappings defined for the Plugfest
02:28:14 <kaz> joerg: discussion on TD, DI, AP, SP
02:28:35 <kaz> joerg: what would be the best structure to handle this?
02:28:51 <kaz> joerg: separate structure would be good
02:29:07 <kaz> ... physically could be one document
02:30:12 <kaz> johannes: so we should go for having two docs?
02:30:38 <kaz> ... one for landscape guideline to provide a single point of entry
02:31:05 <kaz> ... do we have somebody who would provide an idea on the structure?
02:31:24 <kaz> dsr: can have a brainstorming discussion now :)
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02:34:23 <kaz> johannes: merging all the three points (proposal for client-side scripting API, Proposed document template for interaction primitives and their mapping to APIs and Protocols, Interaction model and Protocol mappings defined for the WpT Plugfest)
02:34:30 <kaz> ... what would be the best structure?
02:36:06 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/APIs_and_Protocols_TF#Documents_and_deliverables TF-AP wiki
02:37:51 <kaz> kaz: how about simply putting all together with having a section for each?
02:38:08 <kaz> johannes: don't have an answer at the moment...
02:38:25 <kaz> ... would wrap-up the discussion
02:39:05 <kaz> ... 1. definition of an architecture model
02:39:20 <kaz> ... 2. Landscaping of relevant technologies
02:39:35 <kaz> ... 3. Web Thing API proposal from COMPOSE
02:40:48 <yingying> Topic: Implementer's experiences and feedback
02:41:26 <kaz> i|Topic:|... 4. new respec doc including three points (client-side scripting API, interaction primitives and mapping to APIs/Protocols, Interaction model/Protocol mapping for Plugfest)|
02:42:11 <kaz> i|thinking about concrete/comprehensive|scribenick: kaz|
02:43:24 <kaz> louay: imagine having a sensor for humidity and temperature and another sensor only for temperature
02:43:33 <kaz> ... need different protocols for each
02:44:52 <kaz> johannes: other comments?
02:45:48 <kaz> danielp: how we could model device updates
02:46:04 <kaz> ... thing description should have that capability
02:46:37 <kaz> johannes: set of actions and properties which could be handled by the native level
02:46:48 <kaz> ... and how to handle thing description changes
02:47:30 <kaz> danielP: as the starting point, we can record the issues
02:48:00 <kaz> johannes: ok
02:48:24 <kaz> ... we'll look into more deeper detail on actions and properties
02:48:33 <kaz> q?
02:48:59 <kaz> ... may need multiple layers or hierarchy
02:49:19 <kaz> louay: we need some definition
02:49:46 <kaz> ... how should I describe temperature sensor?
02:49:56 <kaz> ... need some Ontorogy?
02:50:09 <kaz> s/Ontorogy/ontology
02:50:46 <kaz> johannes: one option is describe within TD, another is accessible URI
02:51:06 <kaz> louay: we can have more interoperability
02:51:50 <kaz> ... e.g., for DLNA, there is a specific mechanism for the description
02:51:56 <kaz> q?
02:51:58 <kaz> q+
02:52:24 <kaz> johannes: this discussion should go to TF-TD
02:52:55 <kaz> ... another point is how things relates to other things
02:53:05 <kaz> ... consider this room is a "thing"
02:53:27 <kaz> ... this topic is something to be handled by TF-TD
02:54:09 <kaz> ... and Daniel's point?
02:54:14 <kaz> ... changes over tme
02:54:16 <kaz> s/tme/time
02:54:33 <kaz> ... we didn't handle this so far
02:54:54 <kaz> ... some of the description could be rendered dynamically
02:55:05 <kaz> ... really interesting topic
02:56:03 <kaz> ... maybe we could add an implication about that
02:56:10 <kaz> ... possible changes over time
02:56:21 <kaz> ... any more points?
02:56:45 <kaz> ... how to deal with long-learning/short-learning?
02:57:11 <kaz> ... actions for input/output
02:57:18 <kaz> ... more than execution
02:57:23 <kaz> s/execution/executions/
02:57:44 <kaz> ... like the COMPOSE model
02:58:18 <kaz> s/executions/executions for one action
02:59:53 <kaz> ... wonder if we would extend our model
03:00:26 <kaz> s/long-learning/long-running/
03:00:34 <kaz> s/short-learning/short-running/
03:02:21 <kaz> johannes: e.g., normally this schedule
03:02:28 <kaz> ... but on holidays use this schedule
03:02:39 <kaz> ... huge tree of resources
03:03:39 <kaz> ... if we have 50 parameters for heating system at home, that doesn't scale for a factory
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03:05:46 <kaz> ... any more experience?
03:06:06 <kaz> dsr: cyclic dependencies
03:06:38 <kaz> ... server needed to have a queue
03:07:33 <kaz> johannes: might want to elaborate what a proxy is like
03:07:45 <kaz> dsr: shows his demo
03:08:47 <kaz> s/demo/slides/
03:09:01 <kaz> dsr: definition of "Things"
03:09:57 <kaz> ... Things stand for physical or abstract entities
03:10:27 <kaz> ... Things as software objects in the application programs execution environment
03:10:43 <kaz> ... There are many potential protocols which will depend upon the context
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03:10:55 <kaz> johannes: how to create the "abstraction"?
03:12:37 <kaz> (some discussion)
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03:13:14 <kaz> dsr: shows the picture of "Distributed Web of Things"
03:13:37 <kaz> ... Question of Relativity
03:14:33 <kaz> ... Some Requirements
03:14:53 <kaz> ... create a thing from its metadata and an implementation
03:16:21 <kaz> ... Communication Patterns
03:17:16 <kaz> ... tree proxy
03:17:22 <kaz> ... Simple Message Exchange
03:18:38 <kaz> ... can be layered on top of transport protocols
03:18:55 <kaz> johannes: is there any atomic approach?
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03:22:46 <kaz> dsr: Protocol Bindings
03:24:40 <kaz> johannes: clear idea on what's comparable?
03:24:49 <kaz> ... communication patterns?
03:25:06 <kaz> ... should we include those topics?
03:25:16 <kaz> ... looking at the time
03:25:28 <kaz> ... we're pretty much ahead of time
03:26:10 <kaz> ... ari, have you sent out your points?
03:26:14 <kaz> ari: yes, done
03:26:33 <kaz> johannes: skimms what we did in the morning
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03:26:55 <kaz> ... deliverables defined in the Charter
03:27:21 <kaz> q?
03:29:04 <kaz> ... quite a lot topics
03:29:19 <kaz> ... thanks for scribing
03:29:46 <kaz> ... one-hour break and breakout report at 1:30
03:29:57 <kaz> ... will do TF-AP report myself
03:29:59 <kaz> q-
03:30:07 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
03:30:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-wot-ap-minutes.html kaz
03:35:37 <yingying> present+ Kaz_Ashimura(W3C), Toru_Kawaguchi(Panasonic), Yingying_Chen(W3C), Kichul_Park(Samsung), Debaraj_Dahl(Invited Expert), Joerg_Heuer(Siemens)
03:38:32 <yingying> Present+ Claes_Nilsson(Sony), Kosuke_Nagano(Access), Adam_Alfer(Plantronics), Johannes_Hund(Siemens), Naoki_Sekiguchi(KDDI), Kazuo_Kajimoto(Panasonic)
03:49:23 <yingying> Present+ Kazuaki_Nimura(Fujitsu), Ryuichi_Matsukara(Fujitsu), Koichi_Takagi(KDDI), Shuichiro_Chiba(Sharp), Braud_Arnaud(Orange), Hyunjin_Shin(Mtreecare), Hyejin_Lee(HTML5), Yoshiyuki_Kato(Mitsubishi), Muhdhilmi_Binshapien(NTT Docomo), Youngwha_Kim(HTML5), Shinya_Katayama(ORO), Yusuke_Nakaya(ORO), Tetsuya_Negishi(Kyocera), Hiroyuki_Matsumoto(Kyocera), Yuki_Matsuda(UNI), Shintaro_Nagasale(Seiko Epson), Philipp Hoschka(W3C)
03:53:31 <yingying> Present+ Yuma_Inagaki(ORO), Yusuke_Amagai(FujiTV), Yasushi_Kikkawa(NEC), Dake_He(BlackBerry), Msaru_Miyazaki(NHK), Louay_BassBouss(Fokus)
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04:35:32 <yingying> Present+ Dasiuke_Ajitomi(Toshiba)
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05:53:51 <dsr> WG items proposals at https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Proposals_for_WoT_WG_work_items
05:54:03 <dsr> draft charter at https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/master/WG/charter.md
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06:58:02 <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
06:58:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-wot-ap-minutes.html dsr
06:58:12 <dsr> rrsagent, set logs public
06:58:19 <dsr> rrsagent, make minutes
06:58:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-wot-ap-minutes.html dsr
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