13:02:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dwbp
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13:02:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 351
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13:02:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DWBP
13:02:23 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
13:02:24 <trackbot> Meeting: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:02:24 <trackbot> Date: 30 October 2015
13:03:26 <deirdrelee> o worries
13:03:34 <deirdrelee> no
13:03:37 <ericstephan> ericstephan present+
13:03:45 <deirdrelee> present+ deirdrelee
13:03:47 <phila_irc_only> present+ phila_irc_only
13:04:05 <riccardoAlbertoni> present+ riccardoAlbertoni
13:05:12 <jerdeb> jerdeb has joined #DWBP
13:05:51 <SumitPurohit> SumitPurohit has joined #DWBP
13:06:24 <deirdrelee> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon20151030
13:06:42 <deirdrelee> Chair: deirdrelee
13:06:46 <deirdrelee> scribe: deirdrelee
13:07:44 <SumitPurohit> There is noise.difficult to hear.
13:07:45 <riccardoAlbertoni> very noisy line today ..  deirdrelee  please speak louder . .
13:08:00 <deirdrelee> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from meeting of the 9th October
13:08:07 <deirdrelee> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/09-dwbp-minutes
13:08:17 <ericstephan> 0 (didn't attend)
13:08:19 <jerdeb> present+ jerdeb
13:08:30 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
13:08:42 <SumitPurohit> present+ SumitPurohit
13:08:46 <fradulov> present+ fradulov
13:08:56 <ericstephan> +1 sorry didn't read
13:09:04 <fradulov> +1
13:09:10 <deirdrelee> APPROVED: Approve minutes from meeting of the 9th October http://www.w3.org/2015/10/09-dwbp-minutes
13:09:11 <jerdeb> 0 (didn't attend)
13:09:22 <SumitPurohit> 0 (did not attend)
13:09:29 <deirdrelee> PROPOSED: Approve minutes from meeting of the 23rd October http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-10-23
13:09:32 <phila_irc_only> s/APPROVED:/RESOLUTION:/
13:09:41 <deirdrelee> +1
13:09:56 <SumitPurohit> 0 (did not attend)
13:09:58 <fradulov> +1
13:10:09 <ericstephan> 0 ( ok for sure didn't attend)
13:10:09 <jerdeb> 0 (didn't attend)
13:10:22 <riccardoAlbertoni> +1
13:10:38 <deirdrelee> three ppl only online today that were online last week
13:11:37 <deirdrelee> RESOLUTION: Approve minutes from meeting of the 23rd October http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/dwbp/2015-10-23
13:12:04 <deirdrelee> topic: Data Usage Vocabulary
13:12:08 <ericstephan> https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/New_thoughts_on_citations
13:12:23 <ericstephan> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/images/vocab-overview.png
13:12:54 <ericstephan> present+ ericstephan
13:13:37 <deirdrelee> ericstephan: the first link is the outline I'm going to talk about
13:13:56 <deirdrelee> ... the second link is the overview of the vocab that we talked about in Sao Paulo
13:14:18 <deirdrelee> ... what struck me about our discussion is that the citation concept is too lightweight
13:14:28 <deirdrelee> ... is it adding any value apart from acting as a placeholder
13:14:33 <ericstephan> https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/New_thoughts_on_citations
13:14:38 <ericstephan> Different Perspectives
13:14:39 <deirdrelee> ... berna, sumit and I have been reviewing our models
13:15:18 <deirdrelee> ... the different perspectives we were thinking about is 'i have a datasets and I want other people to be able to reference it, for example in an article/journal'
13:15:46 <deirdrelee> ... the other perspective of a citation is that I have a journal article and I want to point to a dataset that I use within the article
13:16:13 <ericstephan> https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/New_thoughts_on_citations Questions
13:16:14 <deirdrelee> ... we started talking about these perspectives early on in th evocab discussion, but then we moved to simple how to cite a dataset on the web
13:17:03 <deirdrelee> ... the new thoughts and questions we asked ourselves were is the citation just a piece of inforamtion, like a blog, or is it a machine-readable concept that can be reused
13:18:07 <deirdrelee> ... for someone who is published for a while, there is differences in how for example a name is expressed. there is work to model authors in a common form, so that they're seen as agents, similar to other concepts in the DUV
13:19:00 <deirdrelee> ... because citations care about identifiers such as DOI, should we care about that, should we carry that over into the DUV, so that the citation contains enough information to ensure accessiblity/interoperability
13:19:18 <deirdrelee> ... we were also thinging about how we cite things on the Web, and how about retractions?
13:19:50 <deirdrelee> ... if somebody makes a statement, but then wants to retract it, how is this retracted carried forward into places where the data is cited?
13:20:08 <deirdrelee> ... these are some of our ideas around our thinking on citations
13:20:17 <ericstephan> Activities
13:20:19 <deirdrelee> ... will jump into activities now
13:20:47 <deirdrelee> ... we've been looking at some of the citation ontologies out there. There are so many pieces to some of these ontologies!!
13:21:31 <ericstephan> Standards (Not necessarily web) Activity Examples
13:21:35 <deirdrelee> ... there are other activities, like the Force11 group, Phil mentioned efforts around cross-referencing. They're very detailed, but there's lots of good work that we may be able to reuse in a meaningful way
13:22:35 <deirdrelee> ... are we going about this the wrong way? not only looking at what ppl in the Semantic Web community are doing in terms of ontologies, but maybe we should look wider at how difference communities / standard bodies are recommending how to use citations
13:22:53 <deirdrelee> ... this helped think about different elements
13:23:04 <ericstephan> Additional Examples
13:23:11 <deirdrelee> ... especially how journals are cited in the publication world
13:23:57 <deirdrelee> ... in the Examples section, there is some guidance on rules to cite data. I'm not suggesting we should incorporate all these examples, but we could try to utilise some of these patterns
13:24:12 <ericstephan> Path forward on building the model
13:24:17 <deirdrelee> ... make citations machine-readable in some way
13:25:01 <deirdrelee> ... we just have to acknowledge there is not one standard way of citing data on the Web. At the meeting, we had a meaningful exchange with Antoine, etc. about reusing vocabularies
13:25:39 <deirdrelee> ... when we were trying to reuse vocabs, we were looking to bring in allthe concepts and relationships. But what we think we'll do is to bring in the guidelines from communities on how to cite data
13:26:15 <deirdrelee> ... and where appropriate bring in these ideas, but we will build the DUV classes from the rest of the DUV model, but incorporating these guidelines
13:26:45 <deirdrelee> ... what is sometimes confusing for ppl is to think of citations as being directly tied to dataset
13:27:08 <deirdrelee> ... however sometimes the citation might be used in a differenct sense, for example, as part of feedback
13:27:25 <deirdrelee> ... another example is if in the DQV if a user wants to use a citaion
13:27:46 <deirdrelee> ... the last part of the model is the DUV component, maybe the citation is just a user's guide for data
13:27:47 <deirdrelee> q?
13:28:31 <deirdrelee> ... what we're trying to build out is that citation is more robust and malliable and people can build these out and can use citations as they need to, in difference scenarios, e.g. quality, whatever
13:30:12 <deirdrelee> deirdrelee: could you explain how this thought process is reflected in the actual concepts used in the model?
13:30:17 <deirdrelee> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/images/vocab-overview.png
13:30:32 <deirdrelee> ... what do the concepts represent for you?
13:31:29 <deirdrelee> ericstephan: what we have now is a really simplified model: cito:CitationAct, foaf:Document and duv:Citation
13:31:49 <deirdrelee> ... what i'm wondering about is, from the class diagram, do we have to actually inherit from cito?
13:32:38 <deirdrelee> ... another thing is in the picture we have prov:Agent. Discussing authors that might be part of a citation, should we be more explicit in that we need a more detailed description of these authors?
13:33:01 <deirdrelee> ... if all we have is first name / surname, do we want to make this discrete so that it's standardised
13:33:49 <deirdrelee> ... some of the standards that we've seen, have a similar duv:Citation class. We'll be looking to these for more specific properties
13:33:50 <deirdrelee> q?
13:35:26 <deirdrelee> ericstephan: we will offer a more streamlined approach, trying to align with the citation community, as opposed to a certain ontology
13:36:14 <deirdrelee> deirdrelee: how do you see duv being used as opposed to continuing to use their own ontology?
13:36:30 <deirdrelee> ericstephan: there's a force11 meeting in spring, will get feedback from them
13:37:29 <deirdrelee> ... but will be in touch with them asap around the citation model. I've been talking to some contacts there
13:37:57 <ericstephan> Agreed Phil
13:38:42 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
13:38:48 <deirdrelee> ack riccardoAlbertoni
13:39:17 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: very intersting discussion
13:39:39 <deirdrelee> ... i haven't understood if you will restructure the schema based onthis research or is this the final schema on which we can comment
13:40:09 <deirdrelee> ericstephan: what we need to is translate the thoughts from the wiki page into the model, so that the group can comment on it
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13:40:29 <deirdrelee> ... we should have a picture by next week and also details on the concept/properties
13:40:29 <PeterWinstanley> present+ PeterWinstanley
13:40:42 <PeterWinstanley> Hi
13:40:55 <PeterWinstanley> apologies for being late
13:41:40 <deirdrelee> topic: DQV
13:42:27 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: not fair to talk about issue-205 when antoine isn't here, would like to have a technical discussion about this
13:42:49 <deirdrelee> ... what I would like to talk about is if Christoph can remain as editor as he has left the group
13:42:56 <deirdrelee> ... I would like to ask to the chairs
13:43:04 <deirdrelee> ... what is the policy here?
13:44:08 <deirdrelee> deirdrelee: maybe ask in an email to phil, as this is a w3c policy issue
13:44:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-dqg.html
13:45:27 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: if you look at the picture there is the DQV that is DCAT centric, which comes from many discussions via calls and f2f
13:46:30 <deirdrelee> ... one of the consequence of this discussion is that i tried to restrict the DAQ ontology (Jeremy & co's work) to refer only to DCAT dataset and distribution
13:47:07 <deirdrelee> ... so we can have a quality measure that comes from DCAT, and we can have an inverse property that is not yet in the model,but is generated from computed on
13:47:29 <jerdeb> q
13:47:33 <jerdeb> q+
13:47:37 <deirdrelee> ... here i would like to restrict to dcat dataset and distribution. Is this something we want to keep? or it's not a big problem
13:48:08 <deirdrelee> or should the DQV be open to non dcat datasets
13:48:29 <riccardoAlbertoni> i cant't hear can you type
13:49:09 <riccardoAlbertoni> yes this is the idea..
13:49:18 <deirdrelee> jerdeb: if you restrict to only dcat datasets, you are restricting to a small group of datasets that are out on the web
13:50:08 <deirdrelee> ... also i ask if we could use dqv for triple stores, then only pointing to dcat restricts this
13:50:36 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: this was the idea actually, restricting to dcat. in daq you are addressing a larget set of resources
13:50:38 <deirdrelee> ack jerdeb
13:51:27 <deirdrelee> ... the question here is if we want to restrict to dcat. this could help the vocab to be more dcat centric. I have no issues with this and could be a distinction between dqv and daq
13:52:26 <riccardoAlbertoni> sorry  i can't hear..
13:52:46 <jerdeb> (sorry I'm eating).. but i think that we (as dqv) should not be limited to just a group of datasets
13:52:46 <riccardoAlbertoni> q+
13:52:49 <deirdrelee> deirdrelee: not sure i agree with 'restricting' usage of dqv
13:53:03 <jerdeb> i agree with deirdre
13:53:13 <deirdrelee> ack riccardoAlbertoni
13:53:49 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: it seems like it's not a good idea to restrict to dqv. it's not a big problem, but in the f2f we discussed a lot about our vocabs being dcat centric
13:53:50 <deirdrelee> q+
13:53:58 <deirdrelee> ... we can stay general
13:54:14 <deirdrelee> ... and we can maybe restrict after next working draft
13:54:48 <riccardoAlbertoni> ok..
13:55:08 <deirdrelee> deirdrelee: don't see why it has to be either or - dcat-centric or restrictive - why not both?
13:55:26 <deirdrelee> I mean dcat-centric and non-restrictive
13:55:32 <deirdrelee> ack deirdrelee
13:55:40 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: one more issue to discuss
13:55:49 <deirdrelee> issue-200?
13:55:49 <trackbot> issue-200 -- Can we align the quality dimension hints in DQV with the ones in ISO 25012? -- open
13:55:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/track/issues/200
13:56:24 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: we could replace the metrics with the ISO ones suggested by Nandana, this will advance the discussion anyway
13:56:48 <deirdrelee> ... we can decide if these are a good list of dimensions to use. At least we will then have a clearer section in DQV
13:57:05 <deirdrelee> ... let's close the issue and open an action
13:57:14 <deirdrelee> deirdrelee: sounds good
13:57:19 <jerdeb> q
13:57:21 <jerdeb> q+
13:57:56 <deirdrelee> jerdeb: i think we should also consider the paper from ? as it covers dimensions that may not be covered in ISO standards
13:58:21 <deirdrelee> riccardoAlbertoni: idea is to add iso dimensions and then add the dimensions from the paper to fill in any gaps
13:58:49 <deirdrelee> ... so jerdeb's proposal is included in our plan
13:59:05 <riccardoAlbertoni> zaveri
13:59:41 <riccardoAlbertoni> thanks
13:59:44 <riccardoAlbertoni> bye
13:59:51 <SumitPurohit> thanks
13:59:54 <jerdeb> bye
13:59:54 <deirdrelee> ack jerdeb
14:00:00 <ericstephan> thanks!
14:00:06 <fradulov> bye all
14:00:32 <phila_irc_only> Thanks Dee for chairing and scribing!
14:00:43 <phila_irc_only> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:00:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-dwbp-minutes.html phila_irc_only
14:06:09 <phila_irc_only> zakim, code?
14:06:09 <Zakim> I have been told this is DWBP, WebEx: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m2c0af451188e3c2177f8d56453c588e9 or +1-617-324-0000 (US Toll Number) Access code: 645 329 153, Password
14:06:12 <Zakim> ... dwbp. Host Key: 641444
14:19:44 <phila_irc_only> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:19:49 <phila_irc_only> RRSAgent, generate minutes
14:19:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/30-dwbp-minutes.html phila_irc_only
17:51:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dwbp