IRC log of dpub on 2015-10-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

23:31:27 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
23:31:33 [ivan]
rrsagent, set log public
23:31:50 [ivan]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
23:32:12 [ivan]
Meeting: DPUB IG F2F second day, 2015-10-30, Sapporo
23:32:17 [ivan]
Chair: Tzviya
23:33:10 [ivan]
Present+ Tzviya_Siegman, Karen_Myers, Yoshii_Jun-ichi, Charles_LaPierre, Dave_Cramer, Heather_Flanagan, Jeff_Xu
23:33:31 [ivan]
23:33:39 [ivan]
ivan has changed the topic to: Agenda:
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23:51:06 [ivan]
Present+ Shinyu_Murakami, Richard_Ishida
23:51:35 [ivan]
Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
00:00:36 [brady_duga]
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00:00:38 [jeff_xu]
need to leave earlier today at about 15:00 right after ARIA session
00:01:21 [Florian]
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00:02:36 [Bert1]
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00:02:39 [ivan]
Present+ Felix_Sasaki, Brady_Duga, Georg_Riem, Johannes_Wilm
00:02:50 [LarsG_]
present+ LarsG
00:02:51 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
00:02:51 [Zakim]
Present: Tzviya_Siegman, Karen_Myers, Yoshii_Jun-ichi, Charles_LaPierre, Dave_Cramer, Heather_Flanagan, Jeff_Xu, Shinyu_Murakami, Richard_Ishida, Takeshi_Kanai, Felix_Sasaki,
00:02:54 [Zakim]
... Brady_Duga, Georg_Riem, Johannes_Wilm, LarsG
00:02:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Bert1, LarsG_, johanneswilm, Florian, brady_duga, sam, clapierre, LarsG, baba, ShaneM, shigeya, RRSAgent, jeff_xu, Zakim, tzviya, HeatherF, Karen, shepazu, Ralph,
00:02:54 [Zakim]
... ivan, rego, liam, JakeA, fantasai, hober, nikos, leaverou_away, bigbluehat, plinss, astearns, iank, Bert, trackbot
00:03:14 [takeshi]
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00:04:17 [ivan]
Present+ Lars_Svensson
00:05:50 [ivan]
zakim, who is here?
00:05:50 [Zakim]
Present: Tzviya_Siegman, Karen_Myers, Yoshii_Jun-ichi, Charles_LaPierre, Dave_Cramer, Heather_Flanagan, Jeff_Xu, Shinyu_Murakami, Richard_Ishida, Takeshi_Kanai, Felix_Sasaki,
00:05:53 [Zakim]
... Brady_Duga, Georg_Riem, Johannes_Wilm, LarsG, Lars_Svensson
00:05:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see murakami, takeshi, LarsG, johanneswilm, Florian, brady_duga, sam, clapierre, baba, ShaneM, shigeya, RRSAgent, jeff_xu, Zakim, tzviya, HeatherF, Karen, shepazu, Ralph,
00:05:53 [Zakim]
... ivan, rego, liam, JakeA, fantasai, hober, nikos, leaverou_away, bigbluehat, plinss, astearns, iank, Bert, trackbot
00:06:37 [ivan]
Present+ Takao_Baba
00:07:06 [dauwhe]
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00:07:44 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
00:07:50 [ivan]
scribenick: fsasaki
00:07:52 [fsasaki]
topic: education and outreach
00:08:14 [fsasaki]
karen presenting on education and outreach
00:08:34 [fsasaki]
karen: now more information on kodansha, one of the largest japanese publishers
00:09:42 [fsasaki]
junichi: there are about 25 japanese publishers sharing the market
00:09:53 [fsasaki]
... big publishing areas like books and mangas
00:10:02 [fsasaki]
... epub 3.0 did not work for manga publishing
00:10:20 [fsasaki]
... 3.1 helped with that
00:10:34 [fsasaki]
... but it is also a kind of headache since there are changes again
00:10:59 [fsasaki]
... there is lot of interested epubweb and related initatives
00:11:06 [fsasaki]
... have worked on publishing for a long time
00:11:15 [fsasaki]
... /me probably
00:11:33 [fsasaki]
... a great pleasure to be in this group and being able to discuss these items
00:11:54 [fsasaki]
[scribe comment: above "3.1" may actually menat to be 3.01]
00:12:12 [fsasaki]
karen: we made progress in meeting with editorial boards of major publishers in the US
00:12:24 [fsasaki]
... publishers weekly, publishers perspective, digital bookworld
00:12:34 [fsasaki]
... they all would like to hear from us and want content on a regular basis
00:12:43 [fsasaki]
... challenge is that we don't have enough people to have content
00:12:56 [fsasaki]
... wondering if any of you want to be an author for some of those publications
00:13:07 [fsasaki]
... we also have the w3c blog, the w3c digital publishing page
00:13:10 [tzviya]
00:13:14 [HeatherF]
00:13:24 [fsasaki]
... and the IDPF would welcome shared information for some fo the work that we are doing together
00:13:35 [tzviya]
ack hea
00:13:42 [fsasaki]
... we might encourage participation today and find out topics your task forces would like to advance
00:13:53 [fsasaki]
heatherF: what type of content are you looking for?
00:14:06 [tzviya]
q+ to talk about blogging publication
00:14:15 [fsasaki]
karen: looking into introductory piece about the work w3c and ipdf do together
00:14:26 [fsasaki]
... then specific items on accessibility, stem etc. - the task forces
00:14:35 [fsasaki]
... not only the "what" but also the "why"
00:14:51 [fsasaki]
... they want to have a regular cadance on the issues we are working on
00:14:59 [fsasaki]
... small pieces are ok 500 words or less
00:15:13 [fsasaki]
... if more people are able to contribute on a regular basis we can have the w3c presence more often
00:15:18 [tzviya]
ack tzv
00:15:18 [Zakim]
tzviya, you wanted to talk about blogging publication
00:15:31 [fsasaki]
tzviya: ivan, karen and I spoke about this yesterday
00:15:51 [fsasaki]
... in some of the other groups, when there is a publication, there is the rule that there is a blog post
00:16:12 [fsasaki]
.... that is somebody has to write it, and then you become comfortable with blog posts
00:16:21 [fsasaki]
... it seems like another task but we can put that togehter
00:16:29 [fsasaki]
00:16:45 [fsasaki]
tzviya: just created a draft post took 10 minutes
00:16:57 [fsasaki]
... minutes are important but we need more on the blog
00:17:07 [fsasaki]
... if we do something interesting let's talk about it
00:17:50 [fsasaki]
... did you play werewolf? write about it
00:17:58 [fsasaki]
... we are serious but we also have fun
00:18:24 [fsasaki]
@@: can write personal things in my blog post
00:18:33 [tzviya]
00:18:40 [fsasaki]
... nothing I would have to clear with the company
00:18:42 [tzviya]
00:19:02 [fsasaki]
tzviya: can talk about great meeting we had with i18n
00:19:27 [fsasaki]
karen: we are missing rest of the world - what are the other outlets that are valuable?
00:19:44 [fsasaki]
... where do you think we should reach out to that would be important for the publishing industry in japan
00:20:02 [fsasaki]
... are there publications or blogs that you read reguarly?
00:20:18 [fsasaki]
@@: joined japanese meetup last sunday
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00:20:25 [fsasaki]
... we need to work on more communication
00:20:32 [fsasaki]
... we are a technical vendord
00:20:51 [fsasaki]
... we need to translate the publisher language to w3c language
00:20:56 [tzviya]
00:21:06 [LarsG]
00:21:07 [fsasaki]
... hope that we can build such a channel for publishers requirements
00:21:27 [fsasaki]
... we can broadcast then items to the broadcaster
00:21:38 [tzviya]
00:21:44 [fsasaki]
karen: would you be willing to work with us on this?
00:21:46 [takeshi]
00:21:48 [fsasaki]
jeff_xu: sure
00:21:57 [fsasaki]
karen: web sites, blogs, journals, ...
00:22:11 [tzviya]
ack takeshi
00:22:18 [fsasaki]
jeff_xu: I'll start from informal communication, then look into more official channel
00:22:37 [fsasaki]
takeshi: I have some concern to focus on publishers too much
00:22:46 [fsasaki]
... the publishers experience is based on printing
00:22:56 [fsasaki]
... most of the publishers will say: content will start from upper right
00:23:05 [fsasaki]
... but the web site will start from left up
00:23:11 [fsasaki]
... even if content is written vertical
00:23:21 [fsasaki]
.... that is because the design is important for the web designers
00:23:30 [fsasaki]
... works for japanese and translated web content
00:23:48 [fsasaki]
... there are no publication features designed both for japanese layout and translated english content
00:23:56 [fsasaki]
... need to get the japanese web designer on board!
00:24:23 [fsasaki]
tzviya: communication between web designers and publishers is very important
00:24:24 [tzviya]
00:24:38 [fsasaki]
takeshi: web designers do what is available in web standards
00:24:48 [fsasaki]
... designers just accept the current situation
00:24:57 [baba]
00:25:00 [fsasaki]
00:25:04 [fsasaki]
00:25:15 [fsasaki]
jeff_xu: we need to involve more creators
00:25:26 [fsasaki]
... who work with css, vertical writing mode etc.
00:25:34 [tzviya]
ack baba
00:25:47 [tzviya]
00:25:50 [fsasaki]
baba: I posted URI of ebpaj in japan
00:26:13 [fsasaki]
... most of japanese publishers like kodansha and others are member of this association
00:26:26 [fsasaki]
karen: so this would be a good way to reach developers?
00:26:35 [fsasaki]
baba: they make epub templates of japanese publishing
00:26:49 [fsasaki]
... allmost all publishers including small publishers use the templates used by ebpaj
00:26:51 [ivan]
00:26:53 [shigeya]
EBPAJ = The Electric Book Publishers Association Japan
00:27:02 [fsasaki]
... they have some opinion on epub specs
00:27:29 [fsasaki]
00:27:31 [ivan]
Present+ Shigeya_Suzuki
00:27:47 [fsasaki]
baba: sometimes I talk to members of these association and they say: epub should do ...
00:28:03 [fsasaki]
... I am not member of this
00:28:33 [fsasaki]
junichi: japanese publishing industry could adopt epub 3
00:28:49 [fsasaki]
... and standardize and "japanese" spec to small and medium sized company
00:29:22 [fsasaki]
... various people do a great job of translating epub 3 spec for the japanese book and printing industry
00:29:39 [fsasaki]
... but we need more production side people of japanese industry
00:29:46 [fsasaki]
... publishers are so small and slized
00:29:58 [fsasaki]
... there is toppan insatsu, other big companies
00:30:06 [fsasaki]
... they are capable of taking up things
00:30:29 [fsasaki]
... we have to touch distribution and platform people and engage them in w3c
00:30:57 [fsasaki]
... epubweb is accceptable for me
00:31:07 [fsasaki]
... but publishers are concerned about backward compatibility
00:31:49 [fsasaki]
... if it is a guranetee that epub will stay back ward compatibly, and also a new version that would be great
00:32:07 [fsasaki]
tzviya: just to clarify: this group is not doing a new standardization of epub
00:32:16 [fsasaki]
... we are not addressing backward compatibility
00:32:31 [fsasaki]
... some of things that we are supporting is addressing IDPF
00:32:43 [fsasaki]
... e.g. in the area of identifiers
00:33:02 [fsasaki]
... the work we are doing here takes backward compatility into account
00:33:07 [tzviya]
ack ivan
00:33:12 [fsasaki]
... css layout is a great concern for vertical writing
00:33:14 [Karen]
00:33:36 [fsasaki]
ivan: EBPAJ is very important to fit another contact
00:33:49 [fsasaki]
... e.g. german börsenverein, german equivalent etc.
00:34:00 [fsasaki]
00:34:07 [fsasaki]
ivan: page is kind of a blog
00:34:46 [fsasaki]
.. it seems. my question: can japanese colleagues at keio help to translate blog?
00:34:55 [fsasaki]
... that is to use the office and host network we have?
00:34:55 [fsasaki]
00:35:26 [fsasaki]
ivan: would be quite challenging to do that on our own
00:35:51 [fsasaki]
... e.g. can sam or others can see if we can give blogs on side xyz?
00:36:08 [fsasaki]
... the blog we are talking about is for portable web application
00:36:10 [tzviya]
some english info from EBPAJ:
00:36:14 [fsasaki]
... have that translated in japan
00:36:32 [fsasaki]
tzviya: we should expand our request to our membership
00:36:35 [tzviya]
00:37:03 [fsasaki]
ivan: yes, for the people who are providing information to publishers
00:37:15 [fsasaki]
karen: we are working on building an infrastructure for dissemination
00:37:22 [fsasaki]
.. working with our offices
00:37:48 [fsasaki]
... we have a platform, providing info about who to reach out to for what topic
00:37:57 [tzviya]
ack fs
00:38:40 [tzviya]
scribenick: tzviya
00:39:10 [tzviya]
fsasaki: maybe these organizations would like to do the transalations themselves
00:39:29 [tzviya]
scribenick: fsasaki
00:39:53 [fsasaki]
ivan: agree, the offices or hosts can be a conduit to these organizations
00:40:11 [fsasaki]
ivan: about what takeshi said - relationship between publishers and web designers is not only a japanese issue
00:40:24 [fsasaki]
... publishers have long time experience of presenting
00:40:55 [fsasaki]
... sometimes wish that web sites would be as good layouted as publications
00:41:09 [fsasaki]
... believe me takeshi that this is not only a japanese problem
00:41:27 [fsasaki]
tzviya: various organisations work around the world
00:41:45 [fsasaki]
... conversion houses, printers, ... these are the organisations producing ebooks around the world
00:42:00 [fsasaki]
... even amazon is using them!
00:42:30 [fsasaki]
karen: we have both technical information to distribute, but also business messages on trends, issues etc.
00:43:21 [fsasaki]
ivan: should this also be raised at next offices meeting?
00:43:22 [fsasaki]
karen: sure
00:44:19 [fsasaki]
ivan: I did not thing about that aspect previously, whether they are interested in more information
00:44:36 [fsasaki]
felix: think these organizations would love to distribute content
00:45:00 [fsasaki]
karen: we need to involve people in creating webinars
00:45:21 [fsasaki]
... we could do general, vision like, css, i18n, aria, accessiiblity etc.
00:45:33 [fsasaki]
... it takes some time including getting permission from your company
00:45:44 [fsasaki]
... others are doing marketing - we provide the content
00:45:54 [fsasaki]
... so is a webinar interesting for your to participate in?
00:46:08 [LarsG]
00:46:13 [fsasaki]
tzviya: a first webinar can remind people that we exist
00:46:22 [fsasaki]
... who are we, what do we do, do you know w3c?
00:46:33 [clapierre]
00:46:42 [fsasaki]
... then with more technical work we have done, css, esp. related to publishing
00:46:54 [fsasaki]
... talking about great tricks you can do to make your ebooks better
00:47:10 [fsasaki]
... we need to mindful about doing this jointly with IDPF
00:47:24 [fsasaki]
... we don't want to create a webinar about how to create an ebook
00:47:26 [fsasaki]
ivan: agree
00:47:42 [fsasaki]
... for this type of messaging a clear synchronization with IDPF is important
00:47:52 [HeatherF]
00:47:53 [tzviya]
ack cl
00:48:06 [fsasaki]
... we want to be clear that we will not take IDPFs place
00:48:16 [fsasaki]
charles: will be on panels
00:48:22 [fsasaki]
... on accessibility and mathML
00:48:34 [fsasaki]
... and will be on panel on csun on accessibility and mathML
00:48:52 [fsasaki]
tzviya: we should just touch base about what we do with karen
00:48:55 [tzviya]
ack heather
00:49:11 [fsasaki]
karen: yes, conferences is also another ecosystem we want to address
00:49:17 [fsasaki]
heather: I hate webinars
00:49:30 [fsasaki]
... I have a hard time to understand who are the target audiences
00:49:41 [fsasaki]
... one is the mgmt in publishing, more high level
00:49:54 [fsasaki]
... then there is more technical area, update on work that we are doing
00:50:07 [fsasaki]
... new resources, educational outreach for a more technical audience
00:50:27 [fsasaki]
tzviya: may be hard to get a c-level audience to watch a webinar
00:50:34 [tzviya]
00:50:52 [fsasaki]
karen: no, would not be c- level publishing. for c- level we are looking into a c- level event, working with jeff and bill on that
00:51:12 [fsasaki]
... back to events - what are the events you think are important
00:51:15 [clapierre]
00:51:25 [tzviya]
ack cl
00:51:33 [fsasaki]
charles: in march there is csun
00:51:57 [fsasaki]
... one of the biggest disability conferences, a week long conference on disabilty
00:52:15 [fsasaki]
00:52:24 [fsasaki]
karen: is that always in california?
00:52:33 [fsasaki]
charles: yes, in last 3-4 years has been in san diego
00:52:47 [fsasaki]
ivan: the WAI team is always present
00:53:13 [fsasaki]
tzviya: there is ebook craft in toronoto, that is run by book net canada
00:53:40 [fsasaki]
... look of people involved in ebook development
00:53:49 [clapierre]
00:54:08 [fsasaki]
ivan: local publishers association have their information
00:54:15 [clapierre]
CSUN March 21-26 2016 in San Diego CA
00:54:33 [tzviya]
00:54:47 [tzviya]
00:54:54 [tzviya]
00:54:57 [tzviya]
00:54:58 [clapierre]
00:55:01 [fsasaki]
... probably somebody should be at these events - maybe not me; I then would be in the french event
00:55:08 [fsasaki]
... issue is sometimes to have the info
00:55:41 [fsasaki]
tzviya: IDPF had its event last year, doing it again this year
00:55:51 [tzviya]
ack cl
00:55:53 [fsasaki]
ivan: IDPF also wants to have an evetn in paris
00:56:01 [fsasaki]
00:56:15 [fsasaki]
charles: do we have a twitter account?
00:56:23 [Georg]
Georg has joined #dpub
00:56:29 [fsasaki]
karen: we have w3c account
00:56:37 [fsasaki]
.. using #dpub hashtag
00:56:49 [fsasaki]
ivan: I am twitter reader mostly
00:57:06 [fsasaki]
karen: what about library community?
00:57:30 [fsasaki]
sven: american libraries association event
00:57:40 [fsasaki]
... then IFLA conference, always in august
00:57:50 [fsasaki]
... between 3-4 thousand participants
00:57:59 [fsasaki]
... including c-level people from libaries
00:58:24 [fsasaki]
... having special sessions like assecibiliaty, long term preservation, information acess (where I am in), preservation
00:58:33 [fsasaki]
... the next one is augst 13-18 in columbus ohia
00:58:43 [fsasaki]
00:58:51 [fsasaki]
... these are the two main events
00:59:02 [fsasaki]
ivan: what is profile of dublin core these days?
00:59:13 [fsasaki]
00:59:17 [fsasaki]
lars: metadata
00:59:22 [fsasaki]
... not sure about details
00:59:29 [fsasaki]
... in that community
00:59:40 [fsasaki]
karen: what about annotations?
00:59:47 [tzviya]
00:59:50 [fsasaki]
ivan: may be hard for library community at the moment
01:00:06 [fsasaki]
tzviya: event in june, see link, we should be there
01:00:20 [fsasaki]
karen: in asia? some large publishing events?
01:00:44 [fsasaki]
ivan: there is chinese publishers event - I will find out next week
01:00:51 [fsasaki]
... there are big conferences
01:01:03 [fsasaki]
... problem is that chinese publishers are in their own world
01:01:10 [fsasaki]
... there are very much in their own silo
01:01:23 [fsasaki]
... bill has been there several times, I'll go next week - we'll see
01:01:40 [fsasaki]
... India is next item - a lot of things happening here
01:01:47 [fsasaki]
... pryanka was at one of those events
01:01:53 [fsasaki]
karen: I'll check with her
01:01:58 [murakami]
01:02:10 [LarsG]
s/information acess/information technology/
01:02:11 [fsasaki]
murakamia: toko international bookfair
01:02:12 [tzviya]
london book fair, Frankfurt Book Fair
01:02:26 [fsasaki]
01:02:36 [fsasaki]
murakami: largest event in japan
01:02:38 [LarsG]
01:02:39 [ivan]
01:02:47 [Georg]
01:02:52 [fsasaki]
... then there is paige event, of the print industry associat
01:02:54 [fsasaki]
01:03:16 [tzviya]
Rio de Janeiro International Book Fair
01:03:18 [tzviya]
01:03:25 [fsasaki]
felix: jagat where main contact for doing the japanese layout requirements work
01:03:32 [fsasaki]
01:03:56 [fsasaki]
junichi: new law related to accessibility requirements
01:04:05 [clapierre]
01:04:06 [fsasaki]
... very hard for text book companies
01:04:09 [clapierre]
BookExpo America (BEA) 2016 | Exhibits, Special Events, and Conferences: May 11 - May 13 | McCormick Place, Chicago
01:04:14 [fsasaki]
... universities also must catch up
01:04:21 [ivan]
01:04:40 [fsasaki]
... next paige event or tokyo book fair must work on those fields
01:04:40 [tzviya]
ack geo
01:04:53 [fsasaki]
georg: interested in facts about the conferences you mention?
01:05:02 [ivan]
01:05:13 [murakami]
01:05:19 [tzviya]
ack iv
01:06:27 [fsasaki]
ivan: physical fair, in 90% of the cases, this is not the audience we are looking for
01:06:37 [fsasaki]
... many people listening to author and signing books
01:06:48 [fsasaki]
... for this group it is uninteresting
01:07:01 [fsasaki]
... this is only interesting if there is a side event around
01:07:27 [tzviya]
01:07:52 [fsasaki]
[about page conference, see jagat site: ]
01:08:13 [fsasaki]
ivan: frankfurt bookfair is a huge monster, we are not the ones that run the show
01:08:23 [fsasaki]
georg: we had an interesting experience
01:08:41 [fsasaki] berlin there was a conference on the industrial internet of things - different area
01:08:54 [fsasaki]
... the company organizes events that are very expensive to attend
01:09:03 [fsasaki]
... they want to get c- level people to the event
01:09:27 [fsasaki]
... speakers may be expensive but this is ok, since the tickets are expensive
01:09:46 [fsasaki]
.... ticket around 3000 euro - we had dave raggett at the event talking about web of things
01:09:55 [fsasaki]
... we had a booth in the expose, had visibility
01:10:09 [fsasaki]
... that gave a great boost to web of things
01:10:41 [fsasaki]
... not if there is space in the company plannings - but it may make sense to organize events
01:10:54 [fsasaki]
tzviya: there was an event like that - books and browsers
01:10:59 [johanneswilm]
01:11:01 [fsasaki]
... it was run by o'reilly
01:11:14 [fsasaki]
... the event stopped, o'reilly shiftet to big data topic
01:11:18 [tzviya]
ack tzv
01:11:23 [fsasaki]
georg: ok, more technical stuff
01:11:29 [tzviya]
01:11:35 [LarsG]
01:11:43 [fsasaki]
tzviya: korea has event for educational content
01:11:52 [tzviya]
ack Johannes
01:11:59 [fsasaki]
karen: great, will pass this to korean office
01:12:16 [fsasaki]
johannes: about frankfurt bookfair, I presented
01:12:27 [fsasaki]
... there are small sections with people interested
01:12:37 [fsasaki]
.. you need to be in the right section
01:12:55 [fsasaki]
ivan: still it is an expensive exercise
01:13:01 [LarsG]
q+ to offer to contact the relevant people at IFLA
01:13:09 [fsasaki]
01:13:11 [brady_duga_]
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01:13:43 [fsasaki]
tzviya: my impression in frankfurt was that there are mostly business people, no chance to discuss our topics
01:13:56 [fsasaki]
johannes: the smaller ones send technical people
01:14:13 [tzviya]
ack Lars
01:14:13 [Zakim]
LarsG, you wanted to offer to contact the relevant people at IFLA
01:14:13 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:14:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
01:14:13 [fsasaki]
.. was discussing with service companies
01:14:39 [tzviya]
ack fs
01:14:41 [fsasaki]
tzviya: want to reach out to IFLa, will be in touch will karen
01:14:53 [fsasaki]
... about ALA, talk to robert
01:15:11 [fsasaki]
heather: has connection to special libraries
01:15:37 [tzviya]
01:15:54 [ivan]
01:15:54 [fsasaki]
felix: to johannes, your work is related to akep?
01:16:03 [fsasaki]
johannes: don't know them
01:16:13 [HeatherF]
01:16:16 [fsasaki]
felix: let's touch base and maybe join forces next year
01:16:17 [tzviya]
ack iv
01:16:25 [fsasaki]
karen: great conversation, this has been very helpful
01:16:40 [fsasaki]
ivan: what are the topics for the next weeks e.g. for blogs?
01:16:44 [LarsG]
s/tzviya: want/LarsG: want/
01:16:54 [fsasaki]
karen: announcement of portable web publications
01:16:58 [LarsG]
01:17:16 [LarsG]
s/touch will karen/touch with karen/
01:17:29 [fsasaki]
karen: want something about TPAC
01:17:49 [fsasaki]
... open to see what is another milestone until the end of the year?
01:17:55 [clapierre]
01:18:07 [fsasaki]
ivan: a blog post about css priorities that they have published about a month ago
01:18:31 [fsasaki]
.... in CSS discussion, it became clear that the influence is different
01:18:38 [fsasaki]
... a blog on that would be interesting
01:18:46 [fsasaki]
... and aria vocabulary
01:19:02 [fsasaki]
... in an ideal world in which there is no discussion about the role of aria
01:19:41 [fsasaki]
... the presence of the vocabulary
01:19:57 [fsasaki]
karen: who would do the blogs?
01:20:06 [fsasaki]
ivan: maybe florian for CSS
01:20:09 [tzviya]
ack cla
01:20:28 [fsasaki]
tzviya: for CSS work with @@
01:20:37 [fsasaki]
charles: tpac blog, should we coordinate this?
01:20:44 [tzviya]
s/@@/rich schwerdferger
01:20:48 [fsasaki]
ivan: we can also have several ones
01:21:02 [fsasaki]
karen: can also do both, coordinated and separate
01:21:20 [ivan]
Present+ Liam_Quin
01:21:27 [fsasaki]
tzviya: tpac snapshots, summaries, ...
01:21:39 [fsasaki]
... I always point people to the summaries written by ivan
01:21:49 [fsasaki]
[big thanks to ivan for that!]
01:22:04 [fsasaki]
karen: I'll put some items on the wiki and get that better organizsed
01:22:11 [fsasaki]
01:22:16 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:22:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
01:22:22 [fsasaki]
break, contine
01:22:35 [fsasaki]
01:33:17 [HeatherF]
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01:41:04 [shigeya]
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01:42:31 [ivan]
Topic: Identifiers
01:43:06 [takeshi]
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01:43:58 [liam]
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01:44:03 [ivan]
-> Slides to start up the discussion
01:48:36 [dauwhe]
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01:52:23 [brady_duga]
ScribeNick: brady_duga
01:52:28 [brady_duga]
ivan: I have a lot of questions with no answers
01:52:40 [Florian]
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01:52:44 [brady_duga]
… maybe some of you have answers, maybe it will take years to get answer
01:52:50 [Bert1]
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01:52:56 [brady_duga]
… What is PWP?
01:53:00 [SteveZ]
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01:53:18 [Bert1]
present+ Bert_Bos
01:53:23 [brady_duga]
… fundamentally has a single URL for a collection
01:53:30 [brady_duga]
… of web resources
01:53:52 [brady_duga]
… And then we have potability, which is a little vague
01:54:03 [SteveZ]
present+ Steve Zilles
01:54:05 [brady_duga]
… but essentially the entire entity can be moved around
01:54:09 [Florian]
present+ Florian
01:54:20 [dauwhe]
present+ dauwhe
01:54:48 [brady_duga]
… example of fonts - they may not be essential for displaying content because they are stylistic
01:55:01 [brady_duga]
… but sometimes they are fundamental (for example, for musical notes)
01:55:38 [brady_duga]
… also different ways to access the PWP (file vs protocol), but skipping over that for now
01:55:59 [brady_duga]
… New browser features like service workers help with this
01:56:21 [brady_duga]
… acts as a network proxy
01:57:03 [brady_duga]
… Worked on an architecture that intercepts web requests that may used cached state
01:57:12 [brady_duga]
… or even access a package file
01:57:37 [brady_duga]
… and happens without the rendering engine knowing or caring where the data comes from
01:57:44 [brady_duga]
… Looks like it is always on the web
01:57:55 [Georg]
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01:58:04 [tzviya]
01:58:25 [brady_duga]
.. finally, the packaging structure (whatever it is) has a bunch of web resources (JS, html, etc)
01:58:39 [brady_duga]
… and some admin files (manifests, rights data, etc)
01:58:48 [brady_duga]
… which together form a PWP
01:59:06 [brady_duga]
… As we mentioned yesterday, there is ongoing EPUB 3.1 work
01:59:28 [brady_duga]
… The most important thing is 3.1 makes a comitment that it be backwards compatible
01:59:51 [brady_duga]
… but they are still looking at something similar to what we are, so we have to coordinate
01:59:58 [brady_duga]
… So, identification.
02:00:15 [brady_duga]
… Have one identifier the seemlessly works across all states
02:00:26 [brady_duga]
… Need to coordinate this with web workers
02:00:38 [brady_duga]
… also want identifiers that have fragments
02:00:53 [brady_duga]
… because we may want to reference inside the PWP
02:01:04 [brady_duga]
… BUT, don’t want to reinvent the wheel
02:01:37 [brady_duga]
… So, what is the URI?
02:01:51 [brady_duga]
… We have the magic of service workers. Is that good enough?
02:01:52 [jyoshii_]
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02:02:15 [brady_duga]
… There is one URI for the book, magic of service workers makes it look like it is always there
02:02:51 [brady_duga]
… Need to understand how it works with local content (for instance, file: protocol won’t work with service workers)
02:03:14 [brady_duga]
… Second, what does this really identify?
02:03:20 [tzviya]
present+ Peter_Linss
02:03:49 [brady_duga]
… A general book (Hamlet) or a specific book (SomePubs third edition of Hamlet in Japanese)
02:04:07 [brady_duga]
… Plus lots of versions (epub, pdf, kindle)
02:04:33 [brady_duga]
… Different domains have different habits and approaches to identifiers
02:04:39 [brady_duga]
… ISBN, DOI, etc
02:05:03 [brady_duga]
… Is it realistic at all to solve all the requirements by separate identifiers?
02:05:14 [brady_duga]
… Just asking questions!
02:05:27 [brady_duga]
… It is NOT W3C’s role to solve this
02:05:37 [brady_duga]
… but who the hell will do that?
02:05:46 [SteveZ]
q+ to say I think there is a confusion between object and the format in which the object iexists
02:05:57 [brady_duga]
… handled by libraries forever, and still not solved
02:06:07 [brady_duga]
… What does a GET return?
02:06:39 [brady_duga]
… Manifest file, html with link, a file with something in the header? All? None? Something else?
02:06:57 [brady_duga]
How do we get into a publication?
02:07:06 [brady_duga]
EPUB CFI has some cryptic method
02:07:25 [brady_duga]
… Maybe use ‘!’ as a separator
02:07:43 [brady_duga]
… Or mimic the file system and just use a slash
02:07:53 [brady_duga]
… slash is closest to the web
02:08:15 [brady_duga]
… CFI is hard to reuse, relies on xml
02:08:23 [brady_duga]
… and specifically the package file
02:08:56 [brady_duga]
… all of these assume a hierarchical structure
02:09:06 [johanneswilm]
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02:09:07 [brady_duga]
… but PWP doesn’t inherently imply that
02:09:15 [Jyoshii_]
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02:09:41 [brady_duga]
… We could have a manifest file that has some sort of redirection
02:09:51 [tzviya]
02:09:52 [brady_duga]
02:10:14 [brady_duga]
… RFC650 has some stuff about URL templates
02:10:43 [brady_duga]
… once in the document, we need to get into content
02:10:59 [brady_duga]
… Can use fragment identifiers
02:11:15 [takeshi]
02:11:29 [brady_duga]
… This is how the web works, so may not be great, but it works today
02:11:42 [brady_duga]
… we may be able to influence ongoing work
02:11:53 [brady_duga]
… for example, the findText API in web annotations
02:12:03 [brady_duga]
… richer than just a search string
02:12:13 [brady_duga]
… will be experessible as a frag identifier
02:12:24 [brady_duga]
… How should the resources refer to each other?
02:12:31 [brady_duga]
… Do we need to restrict it?
02:12:53 [tzviya]
02:12:54 [brady_duga]
… Maybe only relative URI?
02:13:23 [brady_duga]
… Seems sad, maybe we can solve this with service workers instead of restricting it?
02:13:42 [kwkbtr]
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02:13:46 [brady_duga]
… Need to define some scenarios about how the identifiers will work with all the states
02:13:53 [brady_duga]
… may guide us to some answers
02:13:59 [tzviya]
ack liam
02:13:59 [Zakim]
liam, you wanted to remind us that URIs can be redirected, e.g. like an XML Catalogue, e.g. by a servant-worker
02:14:05 [brady_duga]
liam: Nice overview!
02:14:31 [brady_duga]
… We have similar problem with identifiers in xml
02:14:43 [brady_duga]
… we solve it with an xml catalog for fetching DTDs
02:14:57 [brady_duga]
… common practice rewriting the URI
02:15:21 [brady_duga]
… makes sense to have a service worker look in a manifest to get a DTD from somewhere else
02:15:42 [brady_duga]
… specifically on the syntax, you use a hash and slash, could also use ‘?’
02:16:04 [brady_duga]
ivan: I may not have emphasized enough
02:16:13 [brady_duga]
… a web pub is a collection of resources
02:16:16 [ShaneM]
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02:16:26 [brady_duga]
… but each resource is on the web, so you want to access them directly
02:17:00 [brady_duga]
… the canonical URI should be the URI used, which pushes us to using path separators instead of ‘!’ or ‘?’
02:17:09 [tzviya]
ack steve
02:17:09 [Zakim]
SteveZ, you wanted to say I think there is a confusion between object and the format in which the object iexists
02:17:10 [brady_duga]
liam: OK, don’t need to get bogged down
02:17:20 [brady_duga]
SteveZ: I think almost all the issues are important
02:17:25 [brady_duga]
… but there is one red herring
02:17:38 [brady_duga]
… and that is what does the identifier identify
02:18:08 [brady_duga]
… what you point to is not something you need to answer in this case unless it effects the format
02:18:14 [brady_duga]
ivan: I would love it if you were right
02:18:24 [brady_duga]
… but if you look at our uses cases we need it
02:18:33 [brady_duga]
… for instance, you annotate some book
02:18:46 [brady_duga]
… then you take the book and move it locally
02:18:51 [brady_duga]
… then you push it back
02:19:04 [brady_duga]
… originally the book might be a public resource on the web
02:19:16 [brady_duga]
… when I make changes it because something different
02:19:28 [brady_duga]
… I may need a copy of the original which has a different ID
02:19:47 [brady_duga]
SteveZ: But that has to do with the format of the annotations on something than on what the something is
02:20:02 [brady_duga]
… it means the annotation format needs to reference the base thing
02:20:15 [brady_duga]
ivan: it may mean the same pub has several identifiers
02:20:18 [tzviya]
02:20:21 [brady_duga]
… a canonical one
02:20:30 [brady_duga]
… with say the metadata from the pub
02:20:39 [brady_duga]
… another is one for my local one
02:20:46 [brady_duga]
… maybe we need two different ids
02:20:47 [Florian]
02:20:59 [brady_duga]
SteveZ: Yes, that’s what I am getting at
02:21:02 [tzviya]
ack br
02:21:18 [brady_duga]
… the issue of what you are pointing at depends on how you are using it
02:21:20 [dauwhe]
scribenick: dauwhe
02:21:29 [dauwhe]
brady_duga: you were talking about heirarchical nature of these
02:21:42 [dauwhe]
... epub-cfi doesn't require that, it already has aliasing
02:21:50 [dauwhe]
... it still requires a spine
02:21:57 [dauwhe]
... but things can live wherever
02:22:10 [dauwhe]
... you're not reaching things by URL, but by reference in manifest
02:22:15 [tzviya]
ack takeshi
02:22:21 [dauwhe]
scribnick: brady_duga
02:22:33 [brady_duga]
takeshi: I was also thinking about the same approach
02:22:38 [brady_duga]
… but ran into some issues
02:22:53 [brady_duga]
… we have to remember ISSN
02:23:00 [brady_duga]
… mainly for periodicals
02:23:01 [johanneswilm]
02:23:07 [brady_duga]
… and collections
02:23:15 [Bert1]
q+ to ask if packed & unpacked are expected to have different IDs (URLs), or if they are just states/views of the same resource (converted on demand), or maybe there are *three* IDs, packed, unpacked and both?
02:23:23 [brady_duga]
… since they are collections, we can’t reach each issue
02:23:36 [brady_duga]
ivan: I don’t understand - why is an ISSN different than say DOI?
02:23:47 [brady_duga]
takeshi: ISSN has a title, but doesn’t have the physical content
02:24:10 [LarsG]
q+ to talk about issn
02:24:12 [brady_duga]
… It may have “this is todays issue”, “this is yesterday’s”, etc
02:24:20 [brady_duga]
takeshi: But still virtual
02:24:39 [brady_duga]
ivan: But maybe that is the purest form of this identifier
02:24:46 [brady_duga]
… maybe they are all virtual
02:24:46 [baba]
02:24:54 [brady_duga]
tzviya: DOI can include ISSN
02:25:03 [brady_duga]
… functionally may be the same as ISBN
02:25:17 [brady_duga]
LarsG: I think we are on the same page
02:25:32 [brady_duga]
… ISSN references a series of things that are published periodically
02:25:52 [brady_duga]
… I see you could make an ebook of everything that is reference by an ISSN
02:26:11 [brady_duga]
… but that is weird. An ISSN references the series itself, not the items in the series
02:26:23 [brady_duga]
… An ISSN isn’t appropriate for an ebook
02:26:35 [brady_duga]
tzviya: But we aren’t using it for that
02:26:44 [LarsG]
02:26:50 [brady_duga]
… You would use ISSN + DOI for a specific article
02:26:53 [tzviya]
ack fl
02:26:59 [brady_duga]
ivan: Too deep in the weeds
02:27:04 [fsasaki]
file 1: <p id=p1. file 2: <p id
02:27:14 [brady_duga]
Florian: While this topic is important for us, it is broader than this
02:27:17 [tzviya]
s/functionally may be the same as ISBN/
02:27:43 [fsasaki]
02:27:58 [brady_duga]
… need some sort of identifier that doesn’t require an authority
02:28:03 [brady_duga]
… using a hash. Bert?
02:28:15 [brady_duga]
Bert: There is a system that uses a hash
02:28:33 [brady_duga]
… it’s the old URN idea with an actual implementation
02:28:50 [brady_duga]
ivan: Half of me says, let’s explore that, it’s exciting
02:29:02 [LarsG]
s/file 1: <p id=p1. file 2: <p id//
02:29:08 [brady_duga]
… but difficult to go to publishers with it
02:29:16 [tzviya]
02:29:22 [brady_duga]
… anything we come up with should be very down to earth
02:29:38 [Bert1]
s/system/system, in particular a system called Freenet,/
02:29:39 [brady_duga]
Florian: Don’t want to require this, but need to work with the rest of the web
02:30:01 [brady_duga]
… maybe it just works on http, and it ony works to identify on the web
02:30:31 [tzviya]
ack jo
02:30:34 [brady_duga]
… instead of specifying protocols, we have multiple pieces and we can implement all or part to get different levels of expression
02:30:51 [brady_duga]
johanneswilm: If we have some identifier for this, we should resolve larger issues we have with ISBN
02:31:09 [brady_duga]
… sometimes we have multiple ISBN, there is no control over reuse (done in practice), etc
02:31:29 [brady_duga]
ivan: This is my last bullet item - we will NOT solve it. We shouldn’t even try
02:31:37 [brady_duga]
… Industry needs to solve ISBN
02:31:51 [brady_duga]
tzviya: You say publishing industry, but it is not just one
02:31:54 [rossen]
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02:32:06 [brady_duga]
Florian: Maybe it shouldn’t be one authority, it needs to be decentralized
02:32:26 [tzviya]
02:32:29 [brady_duga]
ivan: I understand, but all we can say is a specific publications should have a unique ID
02:32:53 [brady_duga]
… But that is all. Saying exactly what the form is not up to us
02:32:58 [tzviya]
ack bert
02:32:58 [Zakim]
Bert, you wanted to ask if packed & unpacked are expected to have different IDs (URLs), or if they are just states/views of the same resource (converted on demand), or maybe there
02:33:01 [Zakim]
... are *three* IDs, packed, unpacked and both?
02:33:06 [brady_duga]
johanneswilm: Let’s make it clear we are not depending on ISBN
02:33:10 [brady_duga]
ivan: agreed
02:33:12 [Florian]
02:33:27 [brady_duga]
Bert: What does it mean for the format to packed vs unpacked? How does it change?
02:33:59 [tzviya]
ack baba
02:33:59 [brady_duga]
ivan: Conceptually, it is the same publication that can appear as a package, or it can be on the web and you get a URI
02:34:23 [brady_duga]
baba: On the books store, we have 2 versions. Sample vs full
02:34:44 [brady_duga]
… The package document has different IDs
02:34:50 [brady_duga]
… but we want to share bookmarks
02:34:59 [brady_duga]
… so in this case the id should be the same
02:35:05 [brady_duga]
tzviya: I think this would help that
02:35:15 [SteveZ]
02:35:17 [brady_duga]
… Just use one id, but control access
02:35:29 [brady_duga]
… so it is just access
02:35:50 [brady_duga]
baba: Having the same id is a good id, but the indentifier is not a single string
02:36:33 [brady_duga]
… I don’t know what the ID is in that case
02:36:39 [tzviya]
ack fs
02:36:44 [fsasaki]
file 1: <p id=p1> ... file 2: <p id=p1> ... uniqueness & scope issues for identifiers then assembling ebooks from distributed html content? see xliff fragment identiifers special purposed for "assembling content" scenarios
02:36:45 [brady_duga]
tzviya: Not dealing with access at the moment, but is important
02:37:01 [brady_duga]
fsasaki: Imagine existing content as above
02:37:11 [rossen]
rossen has changed the topic to:
02:37:17 [brady_duga]
… assembling existing content is a real use
02:37:43 [brady_duga]
… so a sub-resource was identified uniquely, but now isn't
02:37:56 [dauwhe]
02:37:57 [brady_duga]
… may need to consider scope issues. Have you considered it?
02:38:01 [brady_duga]
ivan: No.
02:38:02 [dauwhe]
02:38:14 [brady_duga]
… so the fragment is within only 1 html file
02:38:22 [dauwhe]
ack me
02:38:35 [brady_duga]
… fragment is unique inside the file
02:38:53 [brady_duga]
… could have collisions at the file level
02:39:07 [brady_duga]
… but that is problem for the person merging these
02:39:26 [tzviya]
02:39:30 [brady_duga]
fsasaki: Wondering about sub-portions of a publication
02:39:37 [brady_duga]
… not a problem for file level
02:39:44 [tzviya]
ack st
02:39:47 [brady_duga]
ivan: Not specific to us, can always happen
02:40:10 [brady_duga]
SteveZ: Asking about identity - can I tell if something else is the same thing as an ID I have
02:40:29 [brady_duga]
… But if you aren’t solving this, then why is it an identifier?
02:40:57 [brady_duga]
ivan: Correct, it is not an identifier in that sense, just in URI sense
02:41:02 [tzviya]
02:41:11 [brady_duga]
… Not ISBN
02:41:29 [brady_duga]
… what we care about is something on the web, using it in the sense of URI
02:41:47 [brady_duga]
tzviya: Ted says offline we should be using URL, because we want a locatior
02:41:56 [brady_duga]
02:42:00 [tzviya]
02:42:15 [LarsG]
q+ to talk about URI vs URL when it comes to location
02:42:34 [tzviya]
ack lars
02:42:34 [Zakim]
LarsG, you wanted to talk about URI vs URL when it comes to location
02:42:39 [brady_duga]
ivan: Get’s into religious arguments about DOI being an identifier vs URI
02:42:52 [brady_duga]
LarsG: I don’t URN is appropriate in this case
02:43:05 [brady_duga]
… if I unpack the thing local (from a web address)
02:43:13 [brady_duga]
… then the location is not what the URI says
02:43:21 [brady_duga]
… so it isn’t about where the resource is
02:43:37 [brady_duga]
… DOI isn’t about location, since it can be multiple places
02:44:05 [kurosawa]
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02:44:08 [brady_duga]
ivan: But when I use an http thing, I can udentify specific things (like myself), so there are arguments about these uses
02:44:18 [brady_duga]
… so we must clarify in the doc
02:44:20 [Bert1]
(Another location-independent URI scheme is the Magnet-URI, a generalization of the Freenet scheme, and probably better known.)
02:44:37 [brady_duga]
peter: This is just rehashing old TAG arguments
02:44:46 [brady_duga]
… Please don’t go there
02:44:54 [brady_duga]
… URL is a locator.
02:45:08 [brady_duga]
… If you give it magic meaning beyond that you will have a bad time
02:45:15 [brady_duga]
… let’s not resurrect the semantic web
02:45:28 [tzviya]
02:45:30 [brady_duga]
… what it means is the thing you get when you dereference the URL
02:45:43 [takeshi]
02:46:00 [brady_duga]
02:46:18 [jeff_xu]
02:46:25 [brady_duga]
… If I fetch a GIF off the net, even if it is in the cache it is still the same thing
02:46:39 [LarsG]
q+ to talk about what I annotate
02:46:44 [tzviya]
ack tak
02:46:48 [brady_duga]
… so they are equivalent. The URL doesn’t mean the image itself
02:47:03 [brady_duga]
takeshi: I think this doc needs IRI
02:47:08 [tzviya]
ack jeff
02:47:09 [brady_duga]
ivan: That is another aspect, but yes
02:47:36 [brady_duga]
jeff_xu: For pubs, it is easy to identify, but for self pubs how does it work?
02:47:41 [brady_duga]
ivan: Don’t understand
02:47:58 [brady_duga]
jeff_xu: Is there a mechanism for self pubs to create an identifier?
02:48:09 [brady_duga]
ivan: By virtue of being on the web, it has a URL
02:48:35 [brady_duga]
… if I want I can use a service to create a stable URL that behnind the scenes redirects you
02:49:00 [brady_duga]
jeff_xu: If I put my book on a different store, it might have different identifiers
02:49:01 [johanneswilm]
02:49:20 [johanneswilm]
ack johanneswilm
02:49:28 [brady_duga]
ivan: Just like today, it will have two different identifiers
02:49:43 [brady_duga]
tzviya: This is a retail question and isn’t somethingwe can address
02:49:46 [tzviya]
ack lars
02:49:46 [Zakim]
LarsG, you wanted to talk about what I annotate
02:50:01 [brady_duga]
LarsG: In that case we need to careful about what we are really identifying
02:50:26 [brady_duga]
… if I have a URL for something I can download, then download it they get different identifiers
02:50:48 [brady_duga]
ivan: If you downloaded because you are online
02:51:06 [brady_duga]
… then when you get online, it magically works when you are online
02:51:49 [brady_duga]
… different scenario, when you really duplicate, you made a different pub so has it’s own id
02:51:54 [brady_duga]
tzviya: Next steps
02:52:06 [brady_duga]
ivan: I would hate if starting tomorrow I was the only one thinking about it
02:52:22 [brady_duga]
… needs more common work
02:52:37 [plinss]
s/resurrect the semantic web/resurrect the semantic web abuse of URLs/
02:52:37 [brady_duga]
… need scenarios of usage
02:52:48 [brady_duga]
… so we can get to possible answers
02:53:01 [brady_duga]
… whether we uses hierarchy vs redirects for instance
02:53:14 [brady_duga]
… not writing a spec, just want to gather points and come to some sort of format
02:53:25 [brady_duga]
… not sure how far IDPF wants to go
02:53:31 [brady_duga]
tzviya: Yes
02:53:46 [brady_duga]
tzviya: Next step, talk to Luc
02:54:00 [brady_duga]
… how about this group?
02:54:05 [brady_duga]
ivan: Collect scenarios
02:54:15 [brady_duga]
… then see how these possibilities work with them
02:54:29 [brady_duga]
… indepentantly, I am not the first person who has thought about this
02:54:44 [brady_duga]
… so there may be others with at least partial answers
02:55:00 [brady_duga]
tzviya: Do we have insights from the visiting types?
02:55:06 [brady_duga]
… words of wisdom?
02:55:28 [brady_duga]
SteveZ: Deciding how to tear something apart before you know what is in it is a hard task
02:55:38 [tzviya]
02:55:44 [brady_duga]
… probably want to know what the manifest is before you decide how to address pieces of it
02:55:58 [brady_duga]
LarsG: Talking about works vs editions
02:56:27 [brady_duga]
tzviya: Q: thing like “Shakespeare’s Hamlet” is out of scope. What about revisions?
02:56:33 [brady_duga]
… and versions
02:56:45 [brady_duga]
… publish a version with typo
02:56:56 [brady_duga]
.. fix it, repeat
02:57:41 [brady_duga]
… does the version and revision show up in the URL?
02:57:47 [brady_duga]
… like github?
02:58:02 [brady_duga]
dauwhe: Maybe leave something for the document itself
02:58:22 [brady_duga]
SteveZ: Don’t put metadata in the URL, since you won’t get it all
02:58:48 [brady_duga]
ivan: In some sense regardless of syntax, what are the info you need in the manifest
02:59:13 [brady_duga]
… You need something like a manifest, what is the required info for it.
02:59:34 [Florian]
02:59:59 [brady_duga]
brady_duga: Point versions, may need to point at a specific version
03:00:10 [brady_duga]
ivan: Yes, just like CSS versions of specs
03:00:36 [Florian]
03:01:06 [brady_duga]
Florian: Can we encode all this in the URL?
03:01:12 [brady_duga]
… It is very broad
03:01:33 [brady_duga]
… we can’t solve all of version control, unless we put the whole web in git
03:01:46 [brady_duga]
ivan: This requires lots more mail discussion
03:02:35 [Karen]
rrsagent, draft minutes
03:02:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Karen
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scribenick: HeatherF
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04:09:26 [HeatherF_]
04:09:32 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: introductions
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04:11:56 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: talked about extended descriptions. Michael Cooper put together information on the descriptions.
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04:12:30 [HeatherF_]
... our group offered feedback. ARIA (Michael Cooper) needs to review.
04:12:40 [HeatherF_]
Michael: thought this was just input into the grid.
04:12:56 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: some discussion on that list may be necessary in the future
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04:13:39 [HeatherF_]
... some of the things we want to update is where we stand with some of the elements
04:13:45 [tzviya]
dpub feedback from DPUB on extended desc
04:13:46 [HeatherF_]
... do we want to even try to address that today?
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04:14:36 [ivan]
Present+ Lea_Verou, Chris_Lilley, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Myles, Alan_Stearns, Markku_Hakkinen, Jason_White
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04:15:04 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: what we want to get to is a ruling out of some approaches.
04:15:15 [tzviya]
04:15:22 [HeatherF_]
... of the approaches that don't get ruled out, which have issues with implementation or authoring complexity.
04:16:00 [HeatherF_]
... You can start with the first table to rule out approaches. If use cases are important then any "no" in a use case steers it to being ruled out
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04:16:26 [HeatherF_]
... A couple of the figure and detail approaches ("describedat", etc) don't actually fly
04:16:55 [HeatherF_]
??: if there is no disagreement, but also if there is no factual disagreement, then probably a reasonable next step will be to take the ones out that do not support what we need supported
04:17:03 [HeatherF_]
... That takes us down to just a few.
04:17:06 [tzviya]
04:17:15 [HeatherF_]
ivan: which would stay?
04:17:43 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: figures with detail source and role attribute meets most of the use cases; ariadescribedat meets all of them; web components proposal might meet all of them;
04:17:54 [HeatherF_]
... web annotations might meet all of them. Those are the four we should look at most closely.
04:18:05 [HeatherF_]
... We are therefore ruling out people's pet solutions.
04:18:30 [HeatherF_]
ivan: don't know if it is a good idea to rule them out all together at this point. If you take them out then there must be some trace that they were at least considered
04:18:48 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: table must provide data as to why we made decisions
04:18:59 [HeatherF_]
liam: some of the "no's" we have in th euse cases are about what is, not what could be
04:19:29 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: some of the "yes's" almost exist (e.g., web annotations). We need to talk about what works today, tomorrow, or next year.
04:19:46 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: not sure the column reflects today, but we think work is being done towards something.
04:19:46 [tzviya]
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04:20:22 [HeatherF_]
jason: in the comment on the draft posted to the list, pointed out issues with details element. It doesn't reflect the proposal made by James Craig.
04:20:40 [HeatherF_]
... whether extended descriptions are even wanted; could be used to hide content from people who don't want to see details.
04:20:49 [HeatherF_]
... The whole media query idea is not captured in the document.
04:21:19 [HeatherF_]
... and the details element, most of the people discussing it did not like the idea of adding an additional source element.
04:21:29 [HeatherF_]
... The live proposals are not the same as the proposals in the table.
04:21:44 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: the table was an attempt to collect data non-judgementally
04:21:53 [tzviya]
04:22:09 [HeatherF_]
liam: table is fabulous to inspire discussion
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04:22:44 [HeatherF_]
... the first "no" is not restricted to images (e.g., longdesk). We have somewhere else in the table where solution is not widely used, but the proposal is for a solution that no one is using.
04:23:10 [HeatherF_]
... This could be improved by being more fine-grained with the yes's and no's
04:23:28 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: The first table is a description of the approaches; we could add data there. It is a seven-dimensional table.
04:23:44 [HeatherF_]
... we can't rule something out only because there are no's in this one column in the table.
04:24:13 [HeatherF_]
... One of the lower down table tries to get into whether things are, or are likely, to be implemented in use agents. That's a proxy for whether people do/don't like the approach.
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04:24:38 [tzviya]
04:24:49 [HeatherF_]
... If something passes the use cases but fails the likely-to-be-implemented, we need further discussion on why
04:25:06 [HeatherF_]
... Table after that is an attempt to get to that (e.g., is this easy/hard to implement?)
04:25:24 [HeatherF_]
ivan: looking at a table, would put the web annotation column in a slightly different format. It is different from the others.
04:25:48 [HeatherF_]
... it is an abstract model, so it feels like comparing apples and oranges.
04:26:04 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: Figure with details is another mechanism being proposed.
04:26:27 [HeatherF_]
ivan: but this has nothing to do with markup. Maybe we will have markup for webannotation, but that has not been decided. We also have no idea if any browser will implement it.
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04:26:52 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: that's why subsequent tables say "not likely to be implemented in the future". We shouldn't put too much weight on this table; it's a discussion exercise not a decision
04:27:09 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: there are a few things here that can be considered generic elements.
04:27:42 [HeatherF_]
... Instead of walking through different elements and seeing what works/doesn't today, we should talk about how we want to proceed.
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04:27:54 [HeatherF_]
... DPUB has given ARIA a bunch of information; what else would you like?
04:28:15 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: Haven't gotten feedback from other groups. This is the only feedback that hasn't been incorporated yet into the ARIA table.
04:28:34 [HeatherF_]
... Not looking for more input specifically from DPUB.
04:29:20 [HeatherF_]
... We aren't yet at the point to make decisions. This is now a heavy discussion phase.
04:29:43 [HeatherF_]
... Pick 3-4 of the approaches most likely to succeed, and then start having discussion with stakeholders specifically on those.
04:30:20 [HeatherF_]
... We will ask them to provide details about how their specific implementation might meet the use cases, if they argue for their position.
04:30:33 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: Hoping Mark can give an overview on what he's been doing.
04:31:17 [HeatherF_]
Mark: Am with ETS, doing educational assessments. We author and produce educational tests for K-12 to university entrance exams and workforce exams.
04:31:26 [HeatherF_]
... Much of the work comes out of the ???
04:31:40 [HeatherF_]
... In almost all cases, the assessments are delivered via web technologies and browsers.
04:31:55 [HeatherF_]
... We are looking at how to use models out of the QTI world in the web world.
04:32:26 [HeatherF_]
... We're motivated to do this because different testing orgs will implement the test items in all manner of HTML implementations, leaving poor interop and poor user experience
04:32:36 [tzviya]
s/???/IMS Global Consortium
04:33:02 [HeatherF_]
... Started to tackle something different in a prototyping effort: the need to provide extended/alternat descriptions for images.
04:33:30 [HeatherF_]
... So, took a tool called diagrammer that include a variety of information that described an image.
04:33:56 [HeatherF_]
... How do we get that into the HTML? We dont' have anything that is reliable for long descriptions, for example.
04:34:05 [tzviya]
04:34:30 [HeatherF_]
... So, took the diagrammer content model and tried to apply it to HTML. Could then build a prototype object.
04:34:55 [HeatherF_]
... Allowed for some interesting UI development based on the existence of information in this model.
04:34:56 [tzviya]
04:35:04 [tzviya]
04:35:42 [HeatherF_]
Mark: next step is that IMS is looking at a new version of QTI and the custom element model is being actively considered as a part of that.
04:35:51 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: are you translating APIC into ARIA?
04:36:01 [HeatherF_]
04:36:36 [HeatherF_]
Mark: APIP was not a well designed approach, so we are diligently trying to transform the best principles of APIP and transforming it for the next version of QTI.
04:36:45 [clapierre]
04:37:13 [HeatherF_]
ivan: At this moment, custom elements is something that is available in Chrome, but no other browser implements it.
04:37:21 [HeatherF_]
... We are on very shaky ground with this.
04:37:51 [HeatherF_]
??? there are issues with custom elements being worked on, and there is progress being made
04:37:59 [astearns]
04:38:01 [tzviya]
04:38:06 [HeatherF_]
... When will it be ready? who knows?
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04:39:10 [HeatherF_]
Mark: looking at a fallback using detail elements and scripting
04:39:31 [HeatherF_]
... We do have a pressing need to solve this problem. Having every vendor of assessments coming up with their own approach will be a Bad Thing.
04:39:33 [tzviya]
hober: the existing implementation that polymer is built on will probably be incopmatible
04:39:51 [tzviya]
04:39:55 [tzviya]
ack cl
04:40:12 [HeatherF_]
clapierre: Beniteck is going to be working with mark's team to take the custom elements and take it to readium for a solution.
04:40:42 [clapierre]
04:40:43 [liam]
04:40:51 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: In the DPU module of ARIA, we have several roles that have questions (e.g., *ref)
04:41:14 [HeatherF_]
... there has been a suggestion to replace with rel* attributes or use something from the COBA (?) model
04:41:23 [hober]
04:42:02 [HeatherF_]
ivan: Talking about rel*, I have offered conflicting opinions. Current position is that it is not appropriate.
04:42:02 [tzviya]
04:42:27 [tzviya]
s/rel*/rel = " "
04:42:39 [HeatherF_]
... You can find yourself in a situation where a value used in the rel attribute can be misinterpreted by an RDFa processor, because the RDFa uses the value of a rel attribute under certain circumstances
04:43:18 [HeatherF_]
... this is a consideration that cannot be ignored.
04:43:36 [HeatherF_]
... Using rel for a possibly large number of additional values around ARIA may be a very dangerous proposition
04:43:55 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: we don't have consensus on that yet.
04:44:21 [HeatherF_]
ivan: we discussed on the mailing list re: defining it, but that has more of a social aspect to it. My problem is more a purely technical situation.
04:44:27 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: if we used rel, it would break things.
04:44:56 [HeatherF_]
??? COGA is not part of the picture. They worked their way into the conversation because part of their remit
04:45:27 [liam]
04:45:30 [HeatherF_]
... As they were roadmapping and blue-skying, they were creating attributes. The conversation then went away from requirements, but whether this was an appropriate application of ARIA technology
04:45:36 [tzviya]
04:45:52 [HeatherF_]
Janina: we asked them a few days ago for clarification, and asked them to reset their examples that does not use ARIA
04:46:06 [HeatherF_]
... i.e., just call it coga-[something]
04:46:28 [tzviya]
04:46:46 [HeatherF_]
... At least lay out the overall pictures of what the problems and opportunities are, so we as W3C can look collaboratively on how to extend the benefits of web technology to people with disabilities
04:47:13 [HeatherF_]
... we haven't really served that community well to date
04:47:27 [HeatherF_]
ivan: we get back to th original issue, which is what do we do with ref from the DPUB side
04:47:47 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: A number of people rejected these roles, whereas people outside the W3C asked for these roles?
04:48:11 [HeatherF_]
Janina: We tried to get to unanimity, but we don't always succeed. W3C does not require unanimity, it requires consensus.
04:48:32 [HeatherF_]
... We have to decide at some point and move forward, and we do that on preponderance of opinion, not unanimity
04:48:48 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: Yes. We are interested in doing this well. If there are reasons not to include those roles, we need to give it seirous thought.
04:49:02 [HeatherF_]
... The rel thing sounded appealing, but if it causes more harm than good, then we shouldn't do it.
04:49:28 [HeatherF_]
Janina: It got close exampination; if the facts were wrong, then we need to fix that. But if th efacts are right, then we need to move forward with aria-
04:49:49 [HeatherF_]
... Due diligence is what the process requires, and that has been applied.
04:50:12 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: While we're on the topic of the DPUB-ARIA module, we have a few outstanding issues (but nothing major aside from the API mappings)
04:50:40 [HeatherF_]
... we have a timeline for a second public working draft. Is there anything standing in our way with that draft, modulo those few outstanding issues?
04:50:49 [HeatherF_]
Janina: No, we should be able to go forward
04:51:02 [HeatherF_]
hober: publishing working drafts more often than not is what we should be doing
04:51:14 [HeatherF_]
ivan: since the prefix has changed, we need to get this out sooner rather than later
04:51:48 [HeatherF_]
Mark: Have been looking at the spec, and playing with the aria- role description. It might be interesting to build some of those examples into the next draft.
04:52:02 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: yes, the draft needs examples.
04:52:09 [HeatherF_]
Mark: have examples to share.
04:52:51 [HeatherF_]
ivan: there is a group in Bologna that are developing a profile for scholarly publishing. They use these terms with the latest prefix as structure in the article.
04:53:11 [tzviya]
04:53:40 [HeatherF_]
Mark: We were talking about our use of QTI; one of the reasons we asked for ARIA role descriptions is to help users by impacting the UI. e.g., make a question sound like a question
04:54:00 [HeatherF_]
... So, existing aria role plus role description gets us most of the way there, rather than bringing in new roles
04:54:41 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: the public review period ended over a month ago for this draft. Would love to look at Mark's examples and at various implementations, but we don't want to abuse aria
04:55:07 [HeatherF_]
... if the whole vocabularly can be duplciated with role descriptions, and can convey the information for more than just the audio reader...
04:55:20 [MichaelC]
q+ to mention pub timeline
04:55:47 [HeatherF_]
Mark: We have had the discussions on how to bring semantics of HTML back when we talked about DAISY. There must be a mechanism for bring semantics in, but still uncomfortable with overburdening roles.
04:55:54 [tzviya]
ack michael
04:55:54 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to mention pub timeline
04:56:21 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: The likelihood on imiment feedback on one topic doesn't mean we shouldn't go ahead and publish. We can always do a third draft.
04:56:35 [HeatherF_]
04:57:04 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: the ARIA group is going to do a lot of work after TPAC, but it would be great to work with the revised draft.
04:57:21 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: need to check with markus, and see mark's examples
04:57:56 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: We are working on a revision of EPUB. We would like to incorporate this into the EPUB 3.1 revision. Hoping to have that finalized within the year.
04:58:21 [HeatherF_]
... We have added an errata to 3.1 re: describedat, but we don't have anything to replace it with.
04:58:33 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: describedat is not entirely off the table, but it's not solidly on it either
04:58:57 [HeatherF_]
... You would like us to resolve extended descriptions sooner rather than later to help with the EPUB 3.1 spec
04:59:02 [HeatherF_]
Janina: Who would work on that?
04:59:11 [HeatherF_]
tzvia: ARIA, not DPUB.
04:59:20 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: ARIA shouldn't do it by themselves.
04:59:44 [tzviya]
04:59:50 [HeatherF_]
Janina: This needs a home. APA's role is to make sure this happens, so we'll work on coordinating. But we need decisions.
04:59:58 [tzviya]
05:00:01 [HeatherF_]
MichaelC: We can only make good decisions based on information we have.
05:00:10 [HeatherF_]
(sorry, tzviya)
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05:00:46 [HeatherF_]
Janina: we are trying to get more feedback and discussion, but we are reaching (have reached?) topic exhaustion
05:00:53 [tzviya]
05:01:20 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: That was what we had on the agenda.
05:01:33 [HeatherF_]
Janina: Ted, you are ok with details?
05:01:36 [HeatherF_]
hober: yes.
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05:01:56 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: Next up - wrap up and action items for the DPUB meeting
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05:03:08 [HeatherF_]
... DPUB-ARIA will have a meeting this coming week and discuss publication of the draft
05:03:18 [ivan]
Topic: Housekeeping
05:03:35 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: Great turnout at this meeting.
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05:03:57 [HeatherF_]
... two years ago, that wouldn't have happened. But the amount of work has increased too
05:04:50 [HeatherF_]
... some highlights: Dave now has friends from DPUB in CSS (e.g., Florian, Allen).
05:05:01 [HeatherF_]
... we will clean up the priorities document and have more communciation with the CSS group
05:05:12 [HeatherF_]
... will try to have more conversations with our math friends
05:05:53 [HeatherF_]
ivan: the CSS WG needs very clear example of what typesetting means for publishers, and what can be achieved compared to that with current tools
05:06:09 [Florian]
05:06:29 [HeatherF_]
... This kind of documentation as part of the prioritization is importnt
05:06:40 [tzviya]
ack fl
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Florian: bringing the examples is important. The people who bring them will need to understand them very well, since CSS will ask very detailed questions about why things were designed the way they were
05:07:24 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: We will be bringing examples at least in English and Japanese, and hopefully other languages.
05:07:38 [HeatherF_]
... In the session with Daniel, we started a community group on the Publishing Object Model
05:07:51 [HeatherF_]
... Daniel will work on creating sample files.
05:07:54 [tzviya]
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05:08:40 [HeatherF_]
... That overlaps with the work happening in this group and the IGBF. There needs to be communication between these groups.
05:09:28 [HeatherF_]
ivan: During the 3.1 discussion, there was one aspect that came up re: the analysis of 3.1 hope that the ??? will abstract out what the manifest needs for more than just EPUB
05:10:08 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: Jake came to talk about Service Workers, and discussed details. Explained to us that accessing the file may not be what Service Workers are going to do.
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05:10:31 [HeatherF_]
... We filed some issues on github on the portable web document. Jake offered to create some samples for us.
05:11:24 [HeatherF_]
Florian: He proposed to create a pair of applciations. One where you can go online and read online, and one where you read offline and can export. The second part of the application would be consuming it and preserving integrity.
05:11:36 [HeatherF_]
ivan: if he does that, we owe him more than cookies
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tzviya: In our session with Karen re: education and outreach, we all have action items to write, blog, inform.
05:13:55 [HeatherF_]
... If you know of conferences or industry organizations, let Karen know
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ivan: regarding identifiers, we have many questions.
05:14:59 [HeatherF_]
... it seems to be unavoidable that for decent usage of portable publications, we need a manifest. So we need to know what a manifest should/must/may include.
05:15:29 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: With ARIA, we will continue discussions.
05:16:03 [HeatherF_]
... It was good to see everyone here and participating. But our mailing list doesn't reflect the energy and enthusiam. It takes someone frustrating us to get us active.
05:16:25 [HeatherF_]
... You don't need to wait until the weekly calls to talk about issues. If you have a question/idea/thought/haiku about TPAC send it to the list.
05:16:36 [HeatherF_]
... Let's get work done ON THE LIST.
05:17:34 [HeatherF_]
... The work needs to be distributed to more participants.
05:18:32 [HeatherF_]
ivan: One thing that came up yesterday. We have been using this time slot for calls for a few years, knowing that for people on the west coast that it's not idea.
05:18:38 [HeatherF_]
05:19:18 [HeatherF_]
... Maybe it's time to look at the time again given the evolution of participants?
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05:19:59 [HeatherF_]
... The India office had a similar problem and tried to create a time convenient to them. We set up an infrastructure to support that, but it ended up not be used.
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05:20:33 [HeatherF_]
... We could try an east asian collection, but whether that would be successful or not not sure.
05:20:39 [HeatherF_]
... This will require more thought and discussion
05:20:41 [HeatherF_]
05:21:21 [HeatherF_]
Florian: two meetings probably wouldn't work unless the core people attended both, which is not realistic
05:21:58 [HeatherF_]
tzviya: May have a regular time and one alternate time a month. Will discuss ON THE LIST
05:22:22 [ivan]
---- adjurned
05:22:31 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
05:22:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
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