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04:28:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-redecentralize-irc
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04:28:53 <npdoty_> rrsagent, make logs public
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04:30:47 <npdoty_> scribenick: npdoty_
04:31:01 <npdoty_> [show of hands for fans and skeptics of decentralization]
04:31:26 <npdoty_> Irina: get input on what is happening in this space, what you're interested in, what are the opportunities or concerns
04:31:35 <npdoty_> ... is there something we can be doing in standards / w3c?
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04:32:40 <npdoty_> ... context is that we're ever more dependent on the digital, personally, socially, professionally
04:33:02 <npdoty_> ... increasingly, interactions with vast monopolies in tech companies
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04:33:24 <npdoty_> ... based on, for example, freemium/advertising-based business models
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04:33:54 <npdoty_> ... but we want to be able to message people beyond a walled garden or signing up for a particular service
04:34:20 <npdoty_> ... a lack of real choice, with terms of service and privacy policies that are incomprehensible or not user-supportive
04:35:01 <npdoty_> ... missing out on potential innovation. for example, email in a world where you could only reach people at the same provider would be impoverished
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04:35:42 <npdoty_> ... but we appear to lack the same situation in other social media communication tools
04:36:15 <npdoty_> ... lack of healthy ecosystem, but also privacy and resiliency concerns of centralized databases
04:37:02 <npdoty_> ... approaches include self-hosting, different protocol layers (IPFS, blockchain, distributed web),
04:37:13 <npdoty_> ... problem of adoption and business models
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04:37:41 <npdoty_> ... not great alternatives. difficult to switch everything away
04:37:46 <npdoty_> rrsagent, pointer?
04:37:46 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-redecentralize-irc#T04-37-46
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04:38:43 <npdoty_> Irina, W3C Team, redecentralize.org bringing together communities and developing common strategies
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04:39:12 <npdoty_> Andrei, W3C Team, researcher at MIT with decentralized technologies on the Web
04:39:15 <npdoty_> ... Solid
04:39:53 <npdoty_> deiu: a lot of technologies for re-decentralization are not on the Web, for example, blockchain
04:40:00 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has joined #redecentralize
04:40:13 <npdoty_> ... redecentralize.org has a very long list of projects
04:40:34 <npdoty_> https://github.com/redecentralize/alternative-internet
04:40:37 <shevski> https://redecentralize.github.io/alternative-internet/
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04:41:06 <npdoty_> deiu: that's a good start if you want to get involved. but a key aspect is: Standards
04:41:19 <npdoty_> ... difficult to come up with solution not based on standards
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04:41:40 <timbl> timbl has changed the topic to: Redecentralize the web
04:41:42 <npdoty_> timbl: could be architecturally centralized, even if it's physically distributed
04:42:07 <timbl> timbl has changed the topic to: Redecentralize the Web breakout at W3C TPAC
04:42:11 <npdoty_> deiu: unless you keep up to date with all the new versions of that product, you'll be out of date
04:42:26 <npdoty_> ... we should be looking into how we can build standards that will let us build decentralized solutions
04:42:38 <npdoty_> ... not just messaging, but a platform for lots of decentralized use cases
04:42:45 <timbl> RRSAgent, pointer?
04:42:45 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-redecentralize-irc#T04-42-45
04:42:56 <npdoty_> shevski: what are the incentive mechanisms? different business models?
04:43:09 <npdoty_> ... what would be necessary for a viable set of alternatives?
04:43:15 <tantek> q+
04:43:23 <npdoty_> chair: shevski, deiu
04:44:03 <npdoty_> dka: in a previous Social Web workshop, we had a speaker from the Tahrir Square protests
04:44:37 <npdoty_> ... use case was using tools to organize, distribute information to people involve in a protest, even after the upstream source was removed
04:44:55 <tantek> dka that may have been the 2011 Federated Social Web Summit / Workshop that was organized by the Federated Social Web Interest Group
04:45:02 <kazue> q+
04:45:03 <npdoty_> ... was discussed by the TAG (Technical Architecture Group), but not clear what we could do in the Web Platform that would help
04:45:33 <npdoty_> ... distributed cache of pulling content from people around you also creates privacy problems (about who has visited certain pages)
04:45:49 <npdoty_> mnot: Mark Nottingham, Person
04:46:07 <npdoty_> ... security properties of a decentralized protocol are very different from what we've gotten used to on the Web in HTTPS
04:46:22 <npdoty_> ... anything that is decentralized is "mixed content", different scheme, not the same lock icon, etc.
04:46:35 <npdoty_> ... don't want others on my network to know what I'm browsing
04:47:03 <npdoty_> ... security community is very worried about anything that makes the security model more nuanced, when users are already having trouble keeping up
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04:47:36 <npdoty_> deiu: use case of being cut off isn't just government control, but, for example, emergency disaster scenarios
04:47:37 <timbl> q+ to challenge Mnot’s assumptins aout incremental change from http Same Origin etc
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04:48:18 <npdoty_> mnot: decentralized protocols that are more application-specific could be fruitful
04:48:18 <dka> present+ Dan Appelquist
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04:48:30 <bigbluehat> present+ Benjamin_Young
04:48:35 <deiu> q?
04:48:41 <npdoty_> ack tantek
04:48:41 <mnot> The blog entry that I mentioned: https://www.mnot.net/blog/2015/08/18/distributed_http
04:48:42 <rhiaro_> present+ rhairo
04:48:52 <rhiaro_> present+ rhiaro
04:48:54 <Bert1> present+ Bert Bos
04:49:01 <npdoty_> tantek: Tantek, IndieWebCamp, Social Web Working Group
04:49:12 <dbaron> present+ dbaron
04:49:22 <npdoty_> ... IndieWebCamp community was formed to fix those problems:
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04:49:36 <npdoty_> ... 1) smart people solving decentralization problems with a centralized project
04:49:52 <npdoty_> ... ... principles over a single project
04:50:18 <npdoty_> ... ... specifically avoiding the anti-pattern of "monoculture", which we see in Diaspora, tent.io, and more every year
04:51:04 <npdoty_> ... 2) incentives: admit that everyone has their own incentives, including self-dogfooding and scratching your own itch, implementing your own solutions rather than selling others on it
04:51:15 <npdoty_> ... ... a good thing to solve problems in parallel
04:51:22 <tantek> https://indiewebcamp.com/#Beyond_Blogging_and_Decentralization
04:51:28 <npdoty_> ... 3) design first, with protocols and formats to follow
04:52:05 <npdoty_> ... earlier movement stalled at Pingback, where social networks innovated on design, user interface, features, etc.
04:52:27 <npdoty_> ... because users care about features more than they do about low-level technology
04:52:49 <tantek> https://indiewebcamp.com/#Beyond_Blogging_and_Decentralization
04:52:54 <npdoty_> ... make a decent UI / user experience
04:53:17 <npdoty_> present+ npdoty
04:53:20 <rhiaro_> present- rhairo
04:53:36 <deiu> q?
04:54:34 <npdoty_> Irina: push for adoption of protocols and execution on UX/design, so as to provide something that larger silos have an incentive to interoperate
04:54:41 <npdoty_> q+ shepazu
04:55:05 <npdoty_> ... governments should care about these standards, because of the ability of thriving ecosystems in this space
04:55:09 <tantek> npdoty - no insults were levied - just a recognition of difference dominant focus
04:55:21 <deiu> ack
04:55:25 <npdoty_> ... tax companies that don't use open standards
04:55:29 <deiu> ack kazue
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04:55:46 <shepazu> q?
04:56:21 <tantek> kazue: personal data store as important
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04:56:25 <npdoty_> kazue: share the situation in Japan. my first time in seeing the phrase decentralized Web. seeing large companies taking hold of our data. seeing a personal datastore as an alternative, where we have control over our own data
04:56:32 <tantek> ++ on ownyourdata
04:56:40 <tantek> q?
04:56:42 <timbl> q+ andrei
04:56:44 <npdoty_> [+1's]
04:56:50 <npdoty_> ack timbl
04:56:50 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to challenge Mnot’s assumptins aout incremental change from http Same Origin etc
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04:57:19 <npdoty_> timbl: distinction between the Internet and the Web, Vint Cerf in the 1960s
04:57:45 <npdoty_> ... the Web is the abstract space of data and information, HTML, HTTP, URLs, invented in 1989, building on top of the Internet, without having to ask Vint for permission
04:57:57 <npdoty_> ... just chose a different port number, based on my parents' telephone number
04:58:51 <npdoty_> timbl: could put a web server up on my NeXT box with a network connection on my desk, everyone could run their own webserver
04:59:06 <npdoty_> ... if you had improved on something I had written, you could edit it and save it back (a read-write web)
04:59:15 <npdoty_> ... finding things by following links, no Google in those days
04:59:57 <npdoty_> ... looking back over 25 years, we don't have the decentralized ability to author, or to control your own data
05:00:00 <bigbluehat> q+
05:00:21 <npdoty_> timbl: web model was that you'd have lots of different servers, controlled by different people
05:00:34 <npdoty_> ... held together by these common standards
05:01:13 <npdoty_> ... same-origin security policy assumes that your data is all inside this website
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05:01:36 <npdoty_> ... which can be disempowering for the person, and the amount of data that the site has is a barrier to entry
05:01:40 <fluffy> q?
05:02:04 <tantek> q?
05:02:24 <npdoty_> timbl: we should be able to move data from one to another, move identity, etc.
05:03:18 <npdoty_> ... when you run an app, there's no reason that the data has to be stored on a server run by the company that wrote the app
05:03:40 <npdoty_> ... personal datastores, PDs or PODs
05:04:03 <dka> Amr Gharbeia was the speaker at the Berlin social web workshop from years ago that I mentioned in my question (https://twitter.com/gharbeia - yes I recognize the irony of sharing a twitter url in a meeting about redecentralizing the web but there you go)
05:04:20 <tantek> that was tried with "LockerProject" - didn't have a compelling UX so didn't get adoption
05:04:30 <dbaron> q+ to ask timbl how the system can guarantee that the app doesn't move data out of the personal data store
05:04:57 <dka> Still feel I would like to explore this use case some more.
05:05:03 <npdoty_> ack shepazu
05:05:41 <npdoty_> shepazu: tantek had advocated dogfooding; Irina had called for scaled solutions -- I think those are absolutely complementary
05:06:07 <npdoty_> ... making prototypes and getting people to use those prototypes is a way to convince larger players or build a community
05:06:18 <npdoty_> ... a way to get from here to there: making really compelling applications
05:06:43 <bigbluehat> +1 to new motivators!
05:06:46 <npdoty_> ... more than just re-inventing, but building a new way to connect
05:06:52 <dka> +1 to doug’s comment
05:07:01 <mnot> +1 to doug
05:07:36 <mnot> … especially applications that traditional / centralised / big business can't do.
05:07:53 <npdoty_> Irina: @@@ project lets you make calls when the mobile networks are down
05:08:14 <tantek> q+ to amplify doug's message about more compelling apps
05:08:33 <tantek> ack andrei
05:08:45 <npdoty_> ack bigbluehat
05:08:59 <npdoty_> bigbluehat: the original Web was part UI and part spec, both things at the same time
05:09:03 <shevski>  s/@@@/Serval Project
05:09:23 <npdoty_> ... the Web is greater than the public Web, like offline/disaster recovery
05:09:25 <timbl> Person Data Integration
05:09:38 <tantek> bigbluehat: I need a name when that's all gone (domain names)
05:09:41 <npdoty_> ... I need a name without renting it, need a name even when those resources are gone
05:09:41 <mnot> q+
05:09:44 <shevski> http://www.servalproject.org/: earlier and open source version of fire chat which you may have heard of
05:09:45 <deiu> q?
05:09:54 <npdoty_> ack dbaron
05:09:54 <Zakim> dbaron, you wanted to ask timbl how the system can guarantee that the app doesn't move data out of the personal data store
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05:10:17 <Karen> q+
05:10:29 <bigbluehat> q+
05:10:30 <npdoty_> dbaron: scared by Tim's diagram [not pictured] -- what do you do to guarantee the properties that you want
05:10:53 <npdoty_> ... how do you ensure that the site/app is putting the data in your personal store
05:11:20 <npdoty_> ... or alternatively, how do you ensure that the data doesn't leave the store when you don't want it to
05:11:38 <npdoty_> timbl: when we pay for software applications, we historically trusted them
05:12:00 <bigbluehat> incentive model discussion is *huge* for these concerns
05:12:07 <npdoty_> ... it's a side effect of the advertising business model is what decreases trust in the app
05:12:19 <npdoty_> ... if the user can't trust the app, then it can't empower the user
05:12:31 <rigo> bigbluehat: the only incentive there is, is to harvest a maximum of data to monetize
05:12:34 <npdoty_> dbaron: people using traditional desktop OS'es downloaded lots of viruses
05:12:48 <npdoty_> ... which is why mobile and Web have succeeded with a very different security model
05:12:49 <bigbluehat> rigo: you mean currently. I'm talking toward new incentives
05:13:20 <npdoty_> deiu: why should we trust the browser?
05:13:37 <npdoty_> dbaron: one reason to trust Firefox is that it's open source
05:13:58 <npdoty_> deiu: indeed, we generally like apps that we install to be open source, or to develop reputation based on experience with them
05:14:16 <npdoty_> dbaron: there is a permissions model for apps that is not "install an app and get permission to everything"
05:14:31 <bhill2> q+
05:14:33 <tantek> +1 to that
05:14:34 <npdoty_> ... I don't want to build a world that just works for highly-technical people
05:14:39 <npdoty_> [+1s to that]
05:14:42 <tantek> +1 build a world that works for not so technical people
05:14:46 <dka> +1 to how does this work for non-technical people?
05:15:24 <npdoty_> timbl: [@@ scribe didn't catch all that@@]
05:15:56 <bigbluehat> the only thing needed is effort on the UX for these new pieces--re: rigo's project that's working to do just that
05:16:21 <npdoty_> rigo: important project @@@ between Firefox OS and DT, on a guest mode for sharing your phone with your friend
05:16:23 <dka>  Question: has anyone has tried Project Maelstrom (bittorrent browser)?
05:16:38 <deiu> q?
05:17:12 <npdoty_> tantek: important to come back to UI, like using OAuth to give a clear and specific way to give certain permissions
05:17:35 <npdoty_> ... has scaled to large solutions. our work on micropub is also based on OAuth
05:17:45 <npdoty_> ack tantek
05:17:45 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to amplify doug's message about more compelling apps
05:17:49 <dbaron> s/one reason to trust Firefox/that's a fair question... although one reason to trust Firefox/
05:17:50 <rigo> except that bearer tokens are the road to hell from a security point of view :)
05:17:54 <mnot> q?
05:18:15 <npdoty_> ack mnot
05:18:31 <tantek> micropub uses OAuth, deliberately
05:18:36 <npdoty_> mnot: distributed naming, for example for a DNS replacement, could be tangibly achievable
05:18:42 <tantek> https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
05:18:53 <npdoty_> ... possible for the blockchain to scale to DNS-size in the next couple of years
05:19:06 <npdoty_> timbl: naming can be done in ways that aren't just blockchain-based
05:19:16 <tantek> agreed, blockchain is unnecessary
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05:19:23 <npdoty_> mnot: just got .onion registered in a not too painful fashion, could consider alternatives
05:19:27 <npdoty_> ... who doesn't love ICANN?
05:19:34 <tantek> q+ to amplify doug's message about more compelling apps
05:19:47 <npdoty_> ack Karen
05:20:23 <npdoty_> Karen: what is the timeline for this kind of initiative? how will we overcome the public misunderstanding of what constitutes the Web?
05:20:29 <deiu> q?
05:21:15 <npdoty_> Irina: redecentralize.org is a way to coordinate that kind of planning. but I think we may need some concrete organization with funding to promote
05:21:32 <npdoty_> ... or a consultancy that helps projects with their UI and explaining
05:21:44 <npdoty_> ... and high profile cases of things that go wrong, so that ideas are likely to spread
05:21:55 <shepazu> (prototypes and adoption help convince browsers and big players that an idea is worth investing in)
05:21:57 <shepazu> q+
05:22:33 <npdoty_> ... a highly-successful Netflix series about decentralization (markw smiles)
05:22:37 <npdoty_> ack shepazu
05:23:00 <npdoty_> shepazu: everyone wins when the biggest player has lots of competition
05:23:03 <timbl> q+
05:23:04 <npdoty_> ack bigbluehat
05:23:04 <shepazu> q-
05:23:22 <npdoty_> bigbluehat: "ego-centric architecture" as an alternative phrase
05:23:31 <npdoty_> ... that is, with you (the user) in the middle of things
05:23:38 <npdoty_> [plug for a later session]
05:23:51 <timbl> q+ to mention geek community as an early adopter community “we are outnumberd” - smaller communities
05:24:09 <npdoty_> bigbluehat: don't want browsers to conclude that fascism as a solution to security problems
05:24:12 <npdoty_> ack bhill
05:24:34 <npdoty_> bhill2: Facebook security. I gave up on running my own email server because of spam, which I had trouble overcoming in a decentralized way
05:24:43 <mnot> q+
05:24:56 <npdoty_> ... having a centralized view of spam/abuse/attacks at Facebook gives us a chance to see patterns of those attacks / broader view
05:25:09 <npdoty_> ... the systems that knock out spam/abuse give the best user experience
05:25:22 <dbaron> My small email provider deals decently with incoming spam, but it's getting more common for *my* email to get rejected because it's email not from gmail/yahoo/ms, so it must be spam.
05:25:27 <npdoty_> ... which is a big advantage for Facebook over Myspace, for example
05:25:35 <deiu> q?
05:25:38 <bigbluehat> bhill2: is the Mozilla spam control information openly available and reusable elsewhere by others?
05:25:40 <dka> q?
05:25:43 <deiu> ack tantek
05:25:43 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to amplify doug's message about more compelling apps
05:25:46 <dka> q+
05:25:51 <npdoty_> ... which are key things to the user experience (+1 to tantek)
05:25:57 <mnot> q-
05:26:18 <npdoty_> tantek: +1 on compelling apps, curious what people really want
05:26:37 <dka> q?
05:26:41 <npdoty_> ... like a push-up app, which counts based on how often his nose touches his phone, and then uploads to his website
05:26:55 <deiu> ack tilgovi
05:26:59 <deiu> ack timbl
05:26:59 <Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention geek community as an early adopter community “we are outnumberd” - smaller communities
05:27:12 <tantek> see Vouch for an attempt at distributed spam solving http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
05:27:13 <npdoty_> ... and encourage people to look at the projects that matter just to them
05:27:47 <npdoty_> timbl: scratching your own itch -- can be difficult to show off the prototypes because the data is so personal
05:28:12 <npdoty_> ... having a domain name with no public web pages, for example
05:28:14 <tantek> yet there's plenty we can learn from people scratching their own itch!
05:28:53 <deiu> q?
05:29:03 <deiu> Zakim, close queue
05:29:03 <Zakim> ok, deiu, the speaker queue is closed
05:29:10 <tantek> the point is not that there aren't private use-cases - of course there are! the point is that there are SO MANY public use-cases we can learn from that we should!
05:29:12 <npdoty_> ... re: designing for geeks, and the people who are managing the technology are outnumbered, but indeed you need a small number of early adopters so that it's possible to convince a significant fraction so that it can virally take off
05:29:30 <npdoty_> ... starting with developers as a target might make sense
05:29:48 <npdoty_> [have to start somewhere]
05:29:52 <npdoty_> dka: anarchists!1!
05:30:09 <npdoty_> ... that's the community you want to start with :)
05:30:14 <npdoty_> Zakim, clear the queue
05:30:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'clear the queue', npdoty_
05:30:20 <tantek> q?
05:30:23 <tantek> ack dka
05:30:31 <npdoty_> Irina: thank you all for coming
05:30:41 <npdoty_> ... follow up on redecentralize.org
05:30:51 <npdoty_> ... but also, find friends with lots and lots of money to invest
05:31:03 <npdoty_> ... for a beautiful future of whistleblowers and happy children
05:31:29 <npdoty_> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
05:31:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-redecentralize-minutes.html npdoty_
05:32:18 <npdoty_> Meeting: Re-decentralizing the Web breakout (#tpac2015)
05:32:27 <npdoty_> rrsagent, please draft the minutes
05:32:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-redecentralize-minutes.html npdoty_
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