07:01:16 RRSAgent has joined #e0 07:01:16 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-irc 07:01:26 Zakim has joined #e0 07:01:31 Florian_ has joined #e0 07:01:37 trackbot has joined #e0 07:01:45 present+ Charles_LaPierre 07:01:57 present+ Florian 07:01:58 present+ Tzviya_Siegman 07:02:13 Norm has joined #e0 07:03:52 brady_duga has joined #e0 07:04:02 Jeff_Xu has joined #e0 07:04:19 cscho has joined #e0 07:04:23 glazou has joined #e0 07:04:26 murakami has joined #e0 07:04:28 jun has joined #e0 07:04:29 chair: dauwhe 07:04:31 Topic: EPUB 0 07:04:33 HeatherF has joined #e0 07:04:41 dauwhe: session decided at last minute 07:04:50 ... surprised the room is packed 07:04:55 idea a few years old 07:05:06 inspired by glazou and his posts about epub3 07:05:12 kwkbtr has joined #e0 07:05:19 and his epub editor that is the only one 07:05:22 he found issues 07:05:31 ivan has joined #e0 07:05:49 interesting features in epub3 07:05:56 for instance duplication in package files 07:06:39 if we have to add a file to an epub, we add it to folder, manifest, spine, nav, landmarks, ncx and and and 07:06:45 significant work 07:06:51 five ordered lists of content 07:07:08 idea was what if we started the spec from scratch, simplest as possible 07:07:13 what would it look like ? 07:07:19 hence the name epub0 07:07:25 it's an experiment 07:07:38 no intention of changing the world 07:07:42 (room is _packed_) 07:07:50 astearns has joined #e0 07:07:50 what if we try 07:08:09 goals were simplicity and keep things closer to the web 07:08:15 html css images and stuff 07:08:25 but the scaffolding around is xml dialects 07:08:26 ls 07:08:33 (oops) 07:08:43 s/ls/ 07:08:52 certain level of complexity 07:09:14 tzv: no bash of EPUB today please :-D 07:09:25 tzviya: we can talk about that later :-) 07:09:36 dauwhe: started about thinking of the various lists of content 07:09:47 the one that is important is the nav file 07:09:52 accessibility does matter here 07:10:08 I started thinking about could we use the nav file for the other manifests? 07:10:18 first idea was let's take the epub nav file 07:10:30 and call it index.html 07:10:44 all of the sudden you can make usable books just w/ that 07:11:03 opera can make nice things with that 07:11:21 navigation is automatically generated 07:11:56 some people became of course mad at that experiment 07:12:02 the W3C has embarked on that effort 07:12:15 the publishing community was isolated from web and web stanards 07:12:25 the DPUB was created with IDPF and W3C together 07:13:05 that collaboration is shown in EPUB+WEB 07:13:15 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/ 07:13:20 Portable Web Publications 07:13:22 Florian_ has joined #e0 07:13:23 mhakkinen has joined #e0 07:13:50 dauwhe: and so that effort of writing that document has been ongoing for a year 07:13:56 tzviya: started before last tpac 07:14:07 dauwhe: vision for fully-web compatible ebooks 07:14:12 online, offline, etc 07:14:26 dauwhe: at same time, IDPF has chartered epub3.1 WG 07:14:34 starting from 3.0.1 07:14:50 some work areas include "browser-friendly manifestation" 07:15:01 exploding the zip package on server to get access to components 07:15:14 dauwhe: so what other things can we do to ease the pain for browsers? 07:15:27 create data structure that decsribe the epub easier for web developers 07:15:55 Florian_: where cn I read about that? 07:16:02 tzviya: IG meeting tomorrow 07:16:20 Ralph has joined #e0 07:16:28 tzviya: first major revision of EUB3 but must be backwards compatible 07:16:52 ivan: IG started with idea that if possible be backwards compatible BUT no mandatory 07:17:11 formal work plan for EPUB 3.1 http://www.idpf.org/workplans/2015/epub/ 07:17:16 dauwhe: explore various versions to make that browser friendly epub so E0 reappeared 07:17:33 dauwhe: EPUB WG proposes a JSON version of manifests 07:17:40 rossen_ has joined #e0 07:17:46 some other people said can we avoid yet another format? 07:18:17 what is interesting about ebooks we have these collections of html files and we also have to define relationships between these files 07:18:23 some files may have special properties 07:18:38 that's where html has not quite fully addressed the requirements 07:18:51 glazou is working for example on transitions between pages 07:19:05 address questions unadressed by web 07:19:16 Florian_: howcome is also active in that space 07:19:26 dauwhe: leads to a interesting problem space 07:19:41 link relations in html between various files but those things are underused 07:20:20 Florian_: each file describing its relationships with other you can create thinsg beyond what we actually care about 07:21:02 johanness: and you want those files to be readable long time from now in the future 07:21:20 dauwhe: most reading systems don't support scripting for various reasons 07:21:27 q? 07:21:28 most authors don't have knowledge of scripting 07:22:18 tzviya: in PWP no sure it's clear about first P 07:22:29 offline not always most important for portability 07:22:39 archiving in publishing world is crucial 07:22:43 what does that mean ? 07:22:53 linking to it and identifying it is crucial 07:23:03 archivable format 07:23:16 traversing the package has not been defined in the past 07:23:38 navigation is one issue but we also need to traverse the package 07:23:51 a11y is super important for publishing too 07:24:06 dauwhe: long term goal of epub is a11y by default 07:24:11 brady_duga: two things 07:24:50 -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork 07:24:51 comment about having relationships between docs powerful but easy to get into a linking mess 07:25:31 dauwhe: preview of an ebook for instance is a subset of files 07:25:51 brady_duga: about sets, what is a set and what is the publication? 07:25:59 fsasaki has joined #e0 07:26:19 how do you define where the spidering should end ? 07:26:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki 07:26:32 dauwhe: fundamental question is the idea of the manifest 07:26:42 does the author need to explicitely list all resources? 07:26:51 brady_duga: mùanifest is almost silly, stupid 07:26:56 fsasaki: yes 07:27:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki 07:27:20 brady_duga: manifest existed because we did not have the zip archive 07:27:30 brady_duga: but now we have a manifest soo..... 07:27:41 tzviya: what if we generate the manifest instead of authoring it? 07:27:45 brady_duga: that's the question 07:28:03 brady_duga: doable looking at package constraints 07:28:21 dauwhe: how can we keep at least the simple cases simple 07:28:30 heavyweight machinery even for simpler cases right now 07:29:05 brady_duga: even in simple cases we have stuff in different folders 07:29:19 tzviya: what is a simple case ? 07:29:31 dauwhe: a simple case might be the simplest ebooks today 07:30:15 dauwhe: (explanations about simple books) 07:30:37 tzviya: we could define simplicity 07:31:09 glazou: but authors will always abuse the system despite of definitions 07:31:20 tzviya: epub check the validation tool is very powerful 07:31:55 glazou: I have found bugs and issues in validator so.... 07:32:14 tzviya: but we can still prevent undesirable files to appear 07:32:20 ivan: industry regulates itself 07:32:22 dauwhe: right 07:32:30 Florian: +1 07:32:39 dauwhe: the spec is what epubcheck decides 07:32:42 dauwhe: that's a fact 07:32:51 tzviya: some retailers don't accept anything else 07:33:29 clapierre: they just updated it right ? 07:33:51 https://github.com/IDPF/epubcheck 07:34:02 Present+ glazou 07:34:24 tzviya: if missing a resource, fallback ? 07:34:42 tzviya: we should kill fixed layout 07:34:44 brady_duga: +1 07:35:16 present+ dauwhe 07:35:16 Present+ HeatherF 07:35:18 Present+ Ivan 07:35:19 present+ duga 07:35:21 liam has joined #e0 07:35:21 present+ RalphS 07:35:21 present+ fsasaki 07:35:22 present+ Norm 07:35:25 present+ rossen_ 07:35:29 ShaneM has joined #e0 07:35:29 present+ jun 07:35:31 present+ liam 07:35:31 gsnedders has joined #e0 07:35:34 present+ astearns 07:35:39 tzviya: questions for us? 07:35:40 present+ Jeff_Xu 07:35:40 Present+ ShaneM 07:35:43 present+ gsnedders 07:35:50 Florian has joined #e0 07:36:02 dauwhe: curious about other crazy ideas other people have 07:36:08 what would you do? 07:36:16 johanneswilm has joined #e0 07:36:50 tzviya: I don't care what a book is (answer to Florian) 07:36:53 books don't need any ordering: http://www.fastcodesign.com/1664818/composition-no1-an-ipad-art-book-you-read-on-shuffle 07:36:58 Florian: complex question though 07:37:10 present+ 07:37:28 tzviya: a spec can be used and abused and I don't care what is an ebook 07:37:36 dauwhe: a book is a set of web content 07:37:48 ivan: we began to give an answer to that 07:37:52 present+ Johanneswilm 07:37:57 a web publication different from a web page? 07:38:01 as a collection 07:38:11 we began to flesh out all these terms 07:38:15 s/set of web content/bounded set of web content/ 07:38:31 ivan: how do I define those resources that make a publication? 07:38:39 q+ 07:38:44 it is a collection of resources 07:38:51 q+ 07:38:54 Florian: is wikipedia a publication? 07:38:55 ivan: yes 07:39:08 but I don't know how we could describe the content 07:39:21 we will have to add additional things 07:39:26 q+ to mention what learned about books from journals 07:39:39 q+ 07:39:55 RRSAgent, draft minutes 07:39:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html glazou 07:40:15 ack he 07:40:25 HeatherF: I'm an editor for IETF 07:40:33 HeatherF: be archivable is critical 07:40:40 HeatherF: and contain information on provenance 07:40:48 q+ 07:40:53 HeatherF: history of document and related documents 07:41:02 HeatherF: should be contained in archive 07:41:05 tzviya: yes 07:41:27 dauwhe: there is metadata applyng to collections and subsets of collections 07:41:38 Zakim, ack HeatherF 07:41:38 I see fsasaki, tzviya, rossen_, johanneswilm on the speaker queue 07:41:43 Zakim, ack fsasaki 07:41:43 I see tzviya, rossen_, johanneswilm on the speaker queue 07:41:53 fsasaki: also question related to metadata 07:42:02 get info from databases 07:42:06 ask structured answers 07:42:19 s/answers/questions 07:42:30 books with apis 07:42:42 I'm saying having a well-defined place in the content 07:42:57 q+ to ask about the dbpedia approach 07:42:58 fsasaki: not necessarily adding them directly 07:43:13 dauwhe: some of the work we're doing explore such options 07:43:41 tzviya: in journal's publishing, most content is html 07:43:55 so gives me a lot of ideas about books 07:44:30 dauwhe: have referencing to whatever metadata vocab is available 07:44:42 tzviya: if you want to see publications do this, could be in package or online 07:44:49 Zakim, ack tzviya 07:44:49 tzviya, you wanted to mention what learned about books from journals 07:44:50 I see rossen_, johanneswilm, ShaneM on the speaker queue 07:45:21 dauwhe: (digression about metadata provenances) 07:45:44 rossen_: couple of questions to ask 07:45:51 not a digression - crucial that packaged documents don't get updated often enough 07:45:56 rossen_: not as poised with epub as you are 07:46:05 rossen_: never had to build one 07:46:37 rossen_: I am hearing a revolutionary approach to this 07:46:45 s/get info from databases/I want to use a book like a database/ 07:46:47 rossen_: yet I hear evolutionary thoughts 07:46:55 rossen_: so revolution or evolution? 07:47:17 rossen_: have you spent any time on the minimal viable set of requirements for a publication? 07:47:19 s/directly/directly like with RDFa 07:47:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki 07:47:27 rossen_: and then revolutionize from there 07:47:45 rossen_: but if evolution, what are the things that work really well 07:47:55 glazou: the zip package, html and css :-) 07:47:57 (laughs) 07:48:15 dauwhe: funny because the core works really well and that core is OWP 07:48:26 s/ask structured questions/want to be able to ask structured questions to my book, like I can do with dbpedia or other linked data sources/ 07:48:26 ivan: problems with CSS, right? 07:48:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki 07:48:46 dauwhe: when we have access to a rendering engine implementing html5 as in 2015, we can do really a lot 07:50:05 mhakkinen: OEB started up in the 90s 07:50:16 and we needed more than audio and ToC 07:50:31 then the navigation structure we needed for audio files 07:50:43 tzviya: EPUB has replaced that and it is the official format now 07:50:53 mhakkinen: can use SMILE to sync html and audio files 07:51:02 ivan: only one good SMILE app... 07:51:08 ivan: interesting question 07:51:19 s/SMILE/SMIL 07:51:23 q? 07:51:30 ack rossen_ 07:51:30 ivan: similar to other story at W3C... never asked ourselves the question in such terms 07:51:46 ivan: yes we tried to look at it 07:52:01 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/ 07:52:07 what it means to be apublication on the web, what it means to be portable 07:52:14 ivan: we carefully avoided the "epub" term 07:52:20 how will it evolve ? we'll see 07:52:36 epub with all existing quirks is a remarkable success, full industry using it 07:52:58 we have to consider evolution as well because we cannot tell industry to start all over from scratch 07:53:08 s/in the content/in the content for such structured data/ 07:53:16 that's why epub3.1 is backwards compatible 07:53:40 but not a mandatory requirement for us but we keep it in mind 07:54:18 [where "us" == IDPF+W3C working together on PWP] 07:54:22 johanneswilm: we can have a browser in readers so what's the point of a separate standard for books 07:54:49 johanneswilm: we should be able to work better because more restrained 07:55:09 johanneswilm: archiving not for hundred years IMO 07:55:29 Florian: annotations should be archivable and sharable 07:56:02 dauwhe: annotations not right in html world because of html tag complexity 07:56:17 s/dauwhe:/rossen:/ 07:57:20 rossen_: I was provoking that conversation 07:57:33 ivan has joined #e0 07:57:36 rossen_: agree with ivan, this is going to be an evolution 07:58:29 Florian: was in email, what is the simplest thing we can do? 07:58:40 ivan: same people wearing different hats in this industry 07:58:45 q? 07:58:51 ack jo 07:59:12 ack Shane 07:59:12 ShaneM, you wanted to ask about the dbpedia approach 07:59:32 ShaneM: would it satisfy fsasaki if the triples available were extracted and stored in the zip file? 08:00:00 fsasaki: we may want to comment on the data 08:00:10 fsasaki: so probably yes 08:00:24 fsasaki: (gives an example) 08:00:42 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:00:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html glazou 08:01:00 [the 'copy-paste incorporating the triples' use case] 08:01:05 ivan: when we are talking about publications, that's not only about html content 08:01:26 ivan: epub has restrictions about content types in the package 08:01:31 but will not last forever 08:02:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:02:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html ivan 08:02:16 dauwhe: thanks everyone for participation! 08:02:17 Norm has left #e0 08:02:19 (adjourned) 08:02:22 [additional requirment would be to point from the data to the content, using e.g. annotation mechanism] 08:02:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/28-e0-minutes.html fsasaki 08:22:43 ShaneM has joined #e0 08:25:46 dauwhe has joined #e0 08:27:58 tzviya has joined #e0 08:31:44 mhakkinen has joined #e0 08:34:29 Jeff_Xu has joined #e0 08:44:53 mhakkinen has joined #e0 08:58:33 Ralph has joined #e0 09:21:25 zakim, bye 09:21:25 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Charles_LaPierre, Florian, Tzviya_Siegman, glazou, dauwhe, HeatherF, Ivan, duga, RalphS, fsasaki, Norm, rossen_, jun, liam, 09:21:25 Zakim has left #e0 09:21:28 Ralph has left #e0 10:24:09 dauwhe has joined #e0 10:39:21 dauwhe has joined #e0 12:27:02 johanneswilm has joined #e0 12:30:49 mhakkinen has joined #e0 12:36:52 ShaneM has joined #e0 12:59:48 dauwhe has joined #e0 13:15:15 dauwhe has left #e0 14:10:34 gsnedders has left #e0 15:36:20 mhakkinen has left #e0 23:24:25 ShaneM has joined #e0 23:26:53 ivan has joined #e0 23:30:21 clapierre has joined #e0 23:31:02 clapierre has left #e0 23:36:35 Jeff_Xu has joined #e0