IRC log of aria on 2015-10-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

04:36:10 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
04:36:14 [MichaelC]
scribe: MichaelC
04:41:41 [jamesn]
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meeting: Breakout Session: WAI-ARIA - Speculating on the Future of ARIA in the Context of Emerging Requirements
04:42:04 [MichaelC]
topic: Framing questions from MichaelC
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Questions for ARIA engineering
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Is, or should be, ARIA:
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* a technology to fill a11y gaps in new technologies
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* a replication on the Web of platform AAPIs
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* a complete accessible user interface description language
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Where a11y semantics exist in other languages, does ARIA need to replicate them?
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* Pro: 1 language may have the semantic but others do not
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* Pro: Lower learning curve on AAPI with ARIA alone
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* Con: There are more ways to do things, confusing for authors and harder for
04:42:17 [MichaelC]
04:42:19 [MichaelC]
Does ARIA have a role beyond providing semantics that map to AAPIs? Or should non-
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AAPI accessibility features be provided another way?
04:42:25 [MichaelC]
Do we expect all ARIA features to be mapped by mainstream user agent, or might some
04:42:27 [MichaelC]
of them be mainly for scripts etc.? Does that help define what might be an ARIA
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feature vs a "something else" feature?
04:42:31 [MichaelC]
A given feature could be met in many different ways:
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* ARIA role
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* ARIA state or property
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* HTML/SVG/etc. element
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* HTML/SVG/etc. attribute
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* CSS property
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04:42:44 [joanie]
q+ Chaals
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* Media query
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* RDFa
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* Web Annotations
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04:42:55 [MichaelC]
* Web API feature
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* Another metadata taxonomy hooked in in some way
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* others?
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How do we decide which is the optimal solution for a given feature?
04:43:03 [MichaelC]
There is a lot of interest in de-ghettoizing a11y, both from the process of how we
04:43:05 [MichaelC]
work with WGs and from the engineering of where features land. How does the future of
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ARIA impact that?
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Do we have an interest in having a11y reasonably completely defined in one technology
04:43:11 [MichaelC]
How can we discuss accessibility feature requests, with straw engineering proposals,
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without getting lost in engineering weeds before the feature itself is fully vetted?
04:43:15 [MichaelC]
How can we work now on a vision for the future, without being distracted from the
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task of completing ARIA 1.1?
04:43:19 [MichaelC]
What groups do we need to discuss a new a11y engineering model with?
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* Web Platform
04:43:25 [MichaelC]
04:43:27 [MichaelC]
04:43:27 [joanie]
ack chaals
04:43:29 [MichaelC]
04:43:31 [MichaelC]
topic: Discussion
04:43:33 [MichaelC]
jf: worried about author fatigue
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rrsagent, make log world
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chair: ad hoc
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jf: how do we teach authors all these things
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ack c
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04:43:54 [LJWatson]
04:44:12 [MichaelC]
present: Joanie, Markku, JasonJGW, MichaelC, MarkS, Cynthia, Léonie, John, JamesN, Shane, Janina, Hober, @@*4
04:44:34 [MichaelC]
cn: authors implement via copy paste
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with no understanding
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we need the ARIA functionality to migrate into mainstream browser
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rather than via scripts and hacks
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one barrier to this is the way scripting works right now, things would break in some circumstances
04:46:20 [MichaelC]
jgw: +1
04:46:39 [MichaelC]
need to balance author desire to create new components, and allow them to do so fully accessibly
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with need to standardize stuff as much as possible
04:47:15 [jamesn]
04:47:20 [clapierre]
Present+ Charles_LaPierre
04:47:55 [MichaelC]
when creating new features, need way that doesn´t involve going through a WG and all that stuff to be able to provide the a11y
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AAPIs provide this to some extent, but rely on AT implementation
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q+ JF
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well defined way to extend things
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q+ cynthia
04:49:04 [hober]
04:49:11 [MichaelC]
ack james
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jn: there are ARIA attributes for lots of web authors
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Present+ JF
04:49:52 [dcooney]
present+ dcooney
04:50:01 [MichaelC]
and other attributes used only by specialized component developers
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the first set needs a full equivalent in host languages
04:50:14 [mhakkinen]
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ack ljwatson
04:50:53 [MichaelC]
the ARIA version should be available for those who want it, but the host language version should be preferred by the masses
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lw: right now can´t access DOM in some browsers
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which means we need full built-in implementation of ARIA
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cs: could provide access to DOM
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lw: would like a testing effort to identify gaps in host languages
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and where things could be fixed with existing features
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ack next
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jf: the I in ARIA is for Interaction
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the Web isn´t a document medium anymore, it´s a platform for sharing and posting
04:53:29 [joanie]
q+ Chaals
04:53:32 [MichaelC]
do we want to sequester ARIA to interaction, and solve other problems in other ways?
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or use ARIA to solve other problems
04:53:46 [MichaelC]
04:54:03 [MichaelC]
right now there are lots of user groups not well addressed by ARIA
04:54:13 [LJWatson]
s/which means we need full built-in implementation of ARIA/Which means right now unless ARIA is mapped to the acc APIs it isn't possible to access it in that browser./
04:54:20 [MichaelC]
concerned that browsers see ARIA as something that is handed off to AAPI
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and that´s that
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think we need more than that
04:54:56 [joanie]
04:55:03 [dcooney]
04:55:11 [MichaelC]
how do browser vendors see ARIA?
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q+ janina
04:55:32 [MichaelC]
ack next
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cs: we see ARIA as a way to expose AAPI to developers
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with complex applications, I´ve heard developers would rather do all one thing
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all ARIA, or all native, rather than a mix
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re implementing other stuff, if it works with the AAPI, yes
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chair: Markku
04:57:27 [MichaelC]
scribeOptions: -final
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complicated to answer from other scenarios
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the COGA proposal doesn´t feel like a natural fit to ARIA
04:58:23 [JF]
Q+ to point to track element as a more mainstream solution
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I had viewed it as a peer to ARIA
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present+ Kenny
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we´re talking about more robust extensibility mechanisms for ARIA 2.0
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to describe behavior not just identity
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cn: the options are div soup + ARIA, or HTML 5
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if you do div soup, ARIA has to address all the needs
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05:01:24 [MichaelC]
then you have developers copying lots of script just to implement e.g., a button
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why not just a native feature with all the AAPI and interaction features built in?
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q+ to say I always thought of ARIA as a bridging technology; I hear some expressing that; but know others have come to see ARIA as a content tech in its own right
05:03:00 [MichaelC]
circle back to existing content would break
05:03:14 [MichaelC]
if UAs started providing native support for ARIA features
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such as adding native interaction to an ARIA button, which also has script attached to it
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and browser can´t reliably turn the script on and off
05:03:49 [MichaelC]
ack next
05:04:25 [MichaelC]
mh: for assessment, there are a lot of innovations taking place
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that are well understood in that space e.g. by teachers
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have HTML 5 implementations, good keyboard support, etc.
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but struggling with how to describe the visual affordances non-visually
05:05:26 [MichaelC]
there is noise from the GUI lens of looking at things
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the descriptions of objects are the noise
05:06:05 [MichaelC]
cs: using name doens´t work?
05:06:11 [MichaelC]
mh: role description gets us part way there
05:06:15 [MichaelC]
also want state description
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and have it ubiquitous in AT implementation
05:06:50 [ShaneM]
q+ to ask about naming and multiple languages
05:06:51 [MichaelC]
cs: this is a choice the AT makes?
05:06:59 [MichaelC]
mh: would be great if the AT didn´t have to do anything
05:07:13 [MichaelC]
jn: if you say this is a pizza, how does the user know what they can do to it?
05:07:33 [MichaelC]
mh: in an assessment exercise, an available action might be ¨take slice¨
05:07:44 [MichaelC]
jn: but that´s no a known operation
05:07:53 [MichaelC]
mh: right; we want that in the description
05:08:18 [MichaelC]
jf: what do we mean by AT?
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screen readers?
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or inclusive of other
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mh: also readaloud tools
05:08:34 [dcooney]
05:08:59 [MichaelC]
cs: people with different disabilities have different needs
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mh: which is part of the learner profile
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that impact how it´s customized
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which matches with the COGA model
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ms: we have to consider localization factors
05:09:53 [MichaelC]
cs: UIA has a localized control type
05:10:14 [MichaelC]
ms: in assessment context, there is tight control
05:10:26 [ShaneM]
q- ShaneM
05:10:43 [MichaelC]
cs: are standardized tests available in other languages?
05:10:45 [MichaelC]
mh: most are
05:10:52 [MichaelC]
ack next
05:11:11 [MichaelC]
cn: if ARIA is a patch language rather than a holistic one
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it doesn´t try to compete with other languages
05:11:20 [dcooney]
05:11:31 [MichaelC]
if it competes with some piece of HTML or SVG
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there could be different ways to do the same thing with different outcomes
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e.g., the ARIA way works in AT but doesn´t have interaction built in; HTML way has interaction but not AT
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then somebody gets screwed either way
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so replicating functionality is a big architectural ail
05:12:29 [MichaelC]
05:12:35 [MichaelC]
q+ cyns
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05:12:38 [MichaelC]
ack next
05:13:09 [jamesn]
05:13:11 [MichaelC]
jd: ARIA is out there in the wild
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sometimes being used in unexpected ways
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but gotta support those uses
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once they take hold
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example of Google Docs that pumps info to screen readers via live regions
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jf: for screen reader, I understand this
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but want to question ¨ARIA is great for screen readers therefore ARIA is the way forward¨
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it might not address all user needs
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jd: clarify that ARIA isn´t just for interactive any more
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I´m not advocating a direction, but need to be aware of what is happening
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ack next
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js: initially ARIA was a patch
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we intended it to have a limited life
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05:16:51 [JF]
ack jf
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JF, you wanted to point to track element as a more mainstream solution
05:16:56 [MichaelC]
but it became evident that it was a useful way to fix bad pages
05:16:57 [MichaelC]
05:17:41 [MichaelC]
so now we want to use it as a way to push things into AAPI
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such as current efforts with DPub
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DPub expects the ARIA roles to be mainstream in the Epub context
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we don´t know how to do all of that yet
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jf: have we have a robust discussion with browser vendors
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that this is a direction that will work for them?
05:19:31 [MichaelC]
solving for EPub readers is great
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but will it fragment if the web browsers don´t take it up?
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js: are you saying if it doesn´t go in mainstream browser, we shouldn´t do it?
05:20:12 [MichaelC]
various: no
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lw: @@
05:20:52 [MichaelC]
js: it will help for us to explore the concepts outside of the final engineering proposal
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some of the solutions may come from here and some from there
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jf: so let´s clearly define our problem statements
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and discuss solutions with others
05:21:28 [mhakkinen]
05:21:29 [MichaelC]
worried about trying to engineer aria-supersolution
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js: think we´ll be able to shift the engineering proposal from COGA
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ack next
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dc: Dominic from Blink
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present+ Dominic
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there are ways to engage with browser developers without being a supplicant
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Blink is developed by a lot of different developers
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with various background knowledge
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with screen reader bias because it´s something they can get their heads around
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a11y engineers have to work within larger project plans
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so would help to bubble things up there
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05:25:05 [MichaelC]
jf: it´s common that people without deep a11y expertise focus on screen readers
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I do want to communicate that there is a deeper picture
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and question whether ARIA is the solution in all cases
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mc: interesting parallel between defaulting to screen readers, and defaulting to ARIA
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dc: there isn´t a concern per se of HTML native vs ARIA
05:27:38 [MichaelC]
but whether there is a single clear place that it´s spec´ed
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would be good if there was layering where accessibility features of HTML were expressed in terms of an accessibility spec
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so there is no duplication
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right now ARIA isn´t expressive enough to play that role
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jf: do we want it to be?
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or do we want it for other things
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dc: with web components coming, having a way to do that extensibility would be really valuable
05:29:55 [MichaelC]
05:30:09 [jamesn]
ack me
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ack c
05:30:55 [MichaelC]
cs: not sure it´s bad for there to be differnt ways to solve a11y problems
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cn: is bad if they conflict
05:31:18 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate MichaelC
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rrsagent, bye
05:31:45 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
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logging to
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dominic: Isn't the Javascript a11y api just another api?
05:47:06 [dcooney]
05:47:28 [ShaneM]
cyns: I wasn't thinking about text. I was thinking about the accessibility tree (e.g. ranges). Maybe they are the same thing.
05:47:33 [ShaneM]
oops. sorry
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present- dominicc
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present- dcooney
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