IRC log of tpac on 2015-10-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-irc
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RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
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meeting: Technical Plenary 2015
23:28:26 [koalie]
chair: JeffJaffe
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agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015
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koalie has changed the topic to: Technical Plenary 2015 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015
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RRSAgent, make logs world-readable
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23:31:23 [koalie]
Topic: Welcome
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23:31:57 [koalie]
Jeff: This year is a record, last count we had over 560 registrants, a 10% increase since last year
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23:32:29 [koalie]
... I'd like to welcome those colleagues from the IETF who took advantage of the proximity of the IETF meeting next week in yokohama
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23:32:46 [koalie]
... I am also please that Vint Cert was able to join us today
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23:32:51 [koalie]
... I'm calling our panelists
23:32:56 [JeffH_]
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23:33:02 [koalie]
... Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the WWW and Director of the W3C
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... Vint Cerf, father of the Internet
23:33:21 [koalie]
... and Jun Murai, best known as the Internet Samurai
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23:33:30 [koalie]
... format of the panel is very unstructured
23:33:40 [koalie]
... I wanted to encourage conversation
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scribenick: Ian
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RRSagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html koalie
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i|Jeff: This year|scribenick: koalie|
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23:34:42 [Ian]
Jeff: (to panelists) What should we be doing better as organizations? What is it important that these orgs should be working more closely together?
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23:35:07 [Ian]
vint: It's pretty clear that the W3C code call space tends to lie above the IETF layer, but there are clearly overlaps like the hot topic of security.
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23:35:25 [Ian]
vint:...one thing that would be helpful if it's not already happening is for the two organizations to share their work plans
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23:36:00 [Ian]
vint: W3C and IETF leadership should look for ways to share current state of developments
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23:37:01 [Ian]
Jun: In Japan, we've hosted IETF and W3C meetings ...more than 30 years have passed since the origins and now everyone is using the technologies, and driving new requirements
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23:37:24 [Ian]
...I think that the Web developments are also having an impact on the lower layers, so it's especially important that the two bodies work closely
23:37:38 [Ian]
...that's why the Japan internet group decided to host both the meetings over these two weeks
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23:38:36 [Ian]
timbl: Layering was really important to the ability to create the Web.
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23:39:05 [Ian]
...to put layering in perspective: you can run IP over anything and it's scaled from 300 baud to much faster.
23:39:24 [Ian]
...the web browser that I wrote will still run over much faster networks thanks to the layering
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23:39:36 [Ian]
...though we have layers you have to break layers from time to time
23:39:38 [dom]
[for those interested on discussing this layering and its needed evolutions, there is a breakout session for that: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015/SessionIdeas#Interacting_with_the_Networking_Layer_.28please_keep_early_in_the_day_due_to_participants_constraints.29 ]
23:39:49 [Ian]
...e.g., when you need to determine whether you trust a connection you look at TCP
23:40:01 [Ian]
..and when things break you need to be able to look into the lower layer to see what went wrong
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23:40:15 [Ian]
...e.g., I couldn't connect to a site due to a DNS issue
23:40:20 [Ian]
...layer breaking lets you fix things
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23:40:39 [Ian]
...furthermore, now we have things like WebRTC / RTC Web
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23:41:12 [Ian]
...you can build a P2P network between web pages...so you can build a whole new system exchanging packets on your own mesh network, all running in a browser
23:41:17 [Ian]
...the layers get churned up
23:41:34 [Ian]
Jun: that's a good point about connected efforts of engineering
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23:42:05 [Ian]
...as Tim said, when the Web tries to create a P2P communication model on the edge side, which is very important in terms of traffic on the network moving forward
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23:42:25 [Ian]
...eventually it's going to be a big engineering issue around traffic...protocol design....
23:42:43 [Ian]
Jeff: We got a lot out of the first question! Security, real-time.....
23:42:50 [Ian]
Vint: One other observation if I may stop you.
23:43:03 [Ian]
....this discussion shows you that anything can be encapsulated within anything else.
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23:43:17 [Ian]
...as a result we are seeing a lot of technology interacting
23:43:31 [Ian]
..the standards bodies that are concerned with devices such as mobile are also being swept into these discussions.
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23:43:45 [Ian]
...so not just IETF and W3C but also the standards-makers of the mobile world (e.g., 3GPP, ITU)
23:43:56 [Ian]
....or new radio frequencies in the upper ranges
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23:44:16 [Ian]
...the implications for the future is that there will be more people, companies, researchers interested in a variety of aspects, including security
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23:44:26 [Ian]
Jeff: we are all familiar with security and the lack thereof.
23:44:32 [Ian]
...where did we go wrong and how are we going to fix it?
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23:44:49 [Ian]
Vint: I have an anecdote to share that is a source of schizophrenia for me.
23:45:10 [Ian]
...started work on TCP with Bob Kahn .... and I started early working with NSA to design packet cryptography
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:45:14 [RRSAgent]
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23:45:25 [Ian]
....the previous problem with crypto was that there was continuous crypto between points
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23:45:37 [Ian]
...we had the possibility of packets arriving out of order, so packet crypto was new
23:45:46 [Ian]
...this was coming from defense dept and they wanted security
23:45:54 [Ian]
...we started working on this in 1975
23:46:11 [Ian]
...some of the equipment was classified so I couldn't share with students or others without clearance
23:46:21 [fwtnb]
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23:46:27 [Ian]
...in 1977, two of my colleagues published their paper on public key crypto
23:46:32 [Ian]
...but they didn't tell you how to do it.
23:46:41 [Ian]
...and 1977 was on the edge of standardizing TPC v. 4
23:46:53 [Ian]
...I need to get something implemented and by 1978 I need to get something built
23:47:03 [Ian]
...we freeze the design one year before RSA....
23:47:11 [Ian]
...there were a lot of operating systems back then, too
23:47:16 [Ian]
...we spent 4 years doing implementations...
23:47:25 [Ian]
...if I could go back in time and say "hang on just 1 more year...."
23:47:36 [Ian]
...we didn't quite catch the technology at the right time.
23:47:46 [Ian]
...but we were able to retrofit the architecture with the technology.
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23:48:06 [Ian]
...the other part, that I recall was 32-bit address space (rather than IPV6 128bit)
23:48:16 [Ian]
....I can explain how we came up with 32 bit
23:48:27 [Ian]
...we had just done Arpanet...and it wasn't cheap
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23:48:33 [Ian]
...we guessed 2 nets per country
23:48:37 [Ian]
...we guessed 128 countries
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23:48:56 [Ian]
....we came up with 256.....then we guessed the number of computers
23:49:10 [Ian]
....we came up with 32 bits based on size of computers at the time
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23:49:15 [Ian]
..and we thought that was enough for an experiment
23:49:28 [timeless]
s/..and/... and/
23:49:37 [timeless]
s/....we/... we/
23:49:39 [Ian]
...and then in 1977 we had an argument on variable length addresses...we rejected that due to processing power
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s/....we/... we/
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s/....I/... I/
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:49:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
23:49:59 [Ian]
...then we thought maybe 128-bit address space...but that seemed crazy for an experiment.
23:50:06 [Ian]
...we thought we would start with an experiment and then increase from there
23:50:11 [Ian]
...but the experiment escaped the lab!
23:50:20 [Ian]
....sorry I am defending myself <laugh>
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23:50:34 [Ian]
Jun: This is a great story about security!
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i/What should we be doing better as organizations/Topic: What should we be doing better as organizations/
23:50:53 [yosuke]
s/....the/... the/
23:51:02 [timeless]
s/....sorry/... sorry/
23:51:05 [yosuke]
s/....the/... the/
23:51:13 [yosuke]
s/....or/... or/
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s/TPC/TCP/
23:51:42 [Ian]
Jun: I think if you had made other choices you might have delayed the deployment of the internet
23:52:03 [Ian]
...a lot of good security solutions were generated from our experience
23:52:07 [timeless]
i/source of schizophrenia/Topic: A regret: Releasing early (just before RSA)
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i/32-bit address space/Topic: Choosing on 32bits for TCPv4 addressing
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:52:53 [RRSAgent]
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23:53:08 [kpfleming]
s/TCPv4/IPv4
23:53:13 [Ian]
...to had to learn from deployment of the Internet and it may have slowed down deployment if we had tried to solve the security issues before the experience
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23:53:52 [Ian]
Vint: I would like to challenge people who are concerned about security...is there some irreducible level of inconvenience that's needed
23:54:05 [Ian]
Timbl: The level of convenience has also gone up so much.
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23:54:26 [Ian]
timbl: In a way, security has to be in everything. Everything you code or write in a spec can be exploited.
23:54:43 [Ian]
...the cool thing as you pointed out implicitly about RSA.....
23:55:02 [timeless]
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23:55:02 [RRSAgent]
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23:55:14 [Ian]
... public key technology was a massive change.
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23:55:22 [Ian]
... that has been very exciting
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s/Timbl:/timbl:/
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23:55:49 [Ian]
... I've been frustrated that we've not been able to live up to the potential of RSA
23:55:55 [Ian]
... people have said it didn't take off due to patents
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23:56:08 [Ian]
... but you could also say it wasn't the technology piece, but rather the social aspect
23:56:19 [Ian]
... the PGP people said "I will only trust people I've had a beer with."
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23:56:41 [Ian]
... you have a key-signing party ... and you can create a trusted infrastructure
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23:57:05 [Ian]
... you had another social attitude which was that the world would have trust imposed upon them by world bodies
23:57:16 [Ian]
... these social structures came into conflict
23:57:33 [Ian]
... if you look at the security situation, one implication of moving from the Web to the social web
23:57:53 [Ian]
... is that we may be able to produce social protocols that will enable us to connect to each other or friend each other
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23:58:05 [Ian]
... using standard protocols in a compatible way, and once we've done that we may realize "oh, we've all got public keys"
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23:58:27 [Ian]
... so the keys could come to us through social graph, and we learn to create user interfaces that let us vouch for each others in different ways
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23:58:40 [Ian]
... so we could fulfill the promise of powerful crypto
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:58:54 [RRSAgent]
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html Ian
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23:59:16 [Ian]
[Jeff invites people to the mic...still no takers]
23:59:45 [Ian]
Jeff: Panelists have alluded to the broadening of the space of people interested in what we do
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23:59:55 [Ian]
...people at the physical layer (e.g., 3GPP)
00:00:15 [Ian]
...we constantly hear about internet governance topics, and nations asserting themselves
00:00:21 [Ian]
...there is a meeting of the IGF in Brazil
00:00:24 [timeless]
i/is there some irreducible level of inconvenience that's needed/Topic: An irreducible level of inconvenience that's needed for security
00:00:40 [Ian]
... what does the engineering community need to know about govt level conversations?
00:00:54 [Ian]
Vint: Engineers should realize that many policymakers don't understand the Internet.
00:01:13 [Ian]
...part of our job is to help them understand what makes sense and doesn't in policy making
00:01:25 [Ian]
...I would like to suggest that the more we use what you (engineers) do
00:01:29 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:01:29 [RRSAgent]
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00:01:35 [Ian]
...the more important strong authentication and integrity will be.
00:01:43 [Ian]
... there are government concerns about that.
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00:02:17 [Ian]
... @@ is president of @@...he has pointed out that he is much more concerned about integrity of data than privacy...e.g., bad data on blood type is more a concern than someone knowing his blood type
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s/of @@/of Estonia/
00:02:50 [Ian]
... that's a somewhat trivial example but makes the point. The public is using the system. The system is neutral and can be used both for good and ill.
00:02:58 [Ian]
...most governments are organized to protect people from harm.
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00:03:07 [Ian]
...you are seeing reactions from people to harms that people have perceived
00:03:15 [Ian]
...some governments want to exercise control as a response
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00:03:27 [npdoty]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Estonia, Toomas Hendrik Ilves
00:03:29 [Ian]
...we are spending more and more time in various venues coping with reactions to harms that have happened to citizens
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s/@@ is/Toomas Hendrik Ilves is
00:03:55 [Ian]
... our job is to try to help them create implementable responses that do not destroy the fabric of the internet that has made it so valuable
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00:04:31 [Ian]
TimBL: We need everyone else to know how to code, so when they sit down to write laws, they know what's possible. Just as, as a citizen, even if you have not been formally taught the law, you understand what the law is capable of, what police are capable of, and other similar things
00:05:00 [timeless]
i|trivial example|-> https://www.president.ee/en/official-duties/speeches/10270-president-toomas-hendrik-ilvess-opening-speech-at-cycon-in-tallinn-on-june-4-2014/ President Toomas Hendrik Ilves's opening speech at CyCon in Tallinn on June 4, 2014
00:05:08 [timeless]
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00:05:08 [RRSAgent]
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00:05:22 [Ian]
timbl: E.g., response to spam can be informed by knowledge of how to code among policy makers
00:05:38 [Ian]
timbl: We end up with a system that is a mix of law and code (cf. Larry Lessig)
00:06:15 [timeless]
i|we use what you|Topic: Authentication as (possibly) more important than Confidentiality
00:06:17 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:06:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
00:06:28 [hfujisawa]
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00:06:30 [Ian]
... when you create something like Napster, it would have been interesting to have a forum where there could have been discussion about both the technical ideas and the social impact
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00:07:11 [Ian]
timble: DMCA tends to demonize hackers....risks in some cases of people reporting bugs and going to jail
00:07:17 [timeless]
s|https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Estonia,|-">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Estonia,|-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Estonia
00:07:21 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:07:21 [RRSAgent]
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00:07:25 [katsu]
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00:07:41 [Ian]
...so I think it's important to have both security angle and policy awareness
00:07:47 [tidoust]
s/timble:/timbl:
00:07:51 [Ian]
...e.g., what is the impact of this protocol on police powers?
00:07:53 [timeless]
s/TimBL:/timbl:/
00:08:17 [timeless]
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00:08:17 [RRSAgent]
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00:08:37 [Ian]
... Just as we'd like people in parliament to write laws that make more sense, we also ourselves need to be prepared to take laws into account in creating standards.
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00:08:59 [Ian]
Jun: A point on policy....the Internet and the Web are "one space".
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00:09:46 [Ian]
... engineering perspective is single global space, but there are many boundary / jurisdiction questions
00:09:56 [Ian]
Manu Sporny: Question about getting a better trust layer in the Web.
00:10:24 [Ian]
... we have work going on in different groups (payments, credentials)
00:10:51 [Ian]
... the W3C for the past 10 years have put effort into publishing data, but not a lot of effort into ensuring the validity of the data.
00:11:00 [Ian]
... for several years there have been efforts to sign data
00:11:20 [Ian]
... when we bring ideas to the Membership we are met with responses such as "we know that's important to solve, but we don't have the expertise to address it"
00:11:37 [Ian]
... there are crypto people at W3C and IETF, but many organizations say "we don't have a expertise" and so the work doesn't get started
00:11:55 [Ian]
... there are proposals on the table to address some of these security issues, but we've had difficulty advancing proposals.
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00:12:29 [Ian]
... if we don't have these basic specifications in place, working groups will find themselves in a position of assuming that the data is not trustworthy, instead of just verifying a signature
00:12:30 [timeless]
present+ Jeff_Jaffe, Tim_Berners-Lee, Vint_Cerf, Jun_Murai
00:12:36 [timeless]
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00:12:38 [Ian]
...how should we make progress?
00:12:57 [timeless]
s/Manu Sporny:/Manu_Sporny:/
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00:13:23 [Ian]
Jun: That's an important topic. As I mentioned, everyone is using the Web and data. Many services would like to share data with big needs to trust.
00:13:36 [Ian]
... example, if train is delayed 2 minutes people will complain
00:13:42 [Ian]
... quality of service creates trust
00:13:50 [Ian]
... from top to bottom there are strong demands for reliability
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00:14:13 [Ian]
... you asked about process... now we have a lot of service designers on top of the Internet who are waiting for your work to be complete due to their need for trusted services
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00:14:47 [Ian]
Vint: I'm glad you've brought this up. I think that W3C and IETF are enablers. Would it be interesting to have a conversation among the W3C/IETF leadership
00:15:21 [Ian]
... to discuss this question "What is missing from the enabling protocol space to make strong authentication, high integrity, and other trust building mechanisms? What's missing from our palette that needs to be addressed?" (Without decisions about where the work would happen.)
00:15:39 [Ian]
...what would make a big difference to the many people who are concerned about trust and integrity? I would welcome that discussion.
00:15:47 [Ian]
Jeff: Great idea...and we can assign action items at TPAC!
00:16:07 [Ian]
...Wendy Seltzer is the right person as IETF liaison and head of T&S
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ACTION: Wendy Seltzer to help organize a high-level discussion on what's missing in the technology and would improve the platform as an enabler?
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00:16:54 [Ian]
Vint: Can we make a list of missing properties that we need to enable solutions to arise?
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00:17:06 [Ian]
Vint: I think it would be worth your time to think about how to achieve that.
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00:18:18 [Ian]
Timbl: You have in you head a stack of technologies that would be great enablers. You put together a deck that shows what you can do with these technologies. You can put together a deck and alienate 98% of the audience. Maybe getting momentum comes somewhere in the middle.
00:18:32 [Ian]
...avoid the trap of thinking there is one social structure.
00:18:55 [Ian]
...you need to examine how things apply in different social settings
00:19:02 [timeless]
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00:19:32 [Ian]
...I agree it's a hard problem to speak to one audience and not alienate other communities...it's a known hard problem.
00:19:37 [Ian]
Vint: Distinguish vision from hallucination
00:20:04 [Ian]
Jeff: We've been talking a lot about history and future in broad strokes
00:20:08 [Ian]
...people will be collecting themselves into breakout groups
00:20:12 [timeless]
i/Question about getting/topic: Question about Better Trust layer in the web
00:20:22 [timeless]
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00:20:34 [Ian]
Jeff: Are there things we should be doing in breakouts we've not already thought about?
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00:20:48 [Ian]
Vint: I'm not sure what the sessions are. I would not want to sound arrogant. :)
00:21:03 [koalie]
-> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015/SessionIdeas TPAC 2015 breakout sessions ideas
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00:21:09 [Ian]
...but one topic that might not fall within your purview is the use of broadcast media as broadcast media (as opposed to turning broadcast into point to point channel).
00:21:30 [Ian]
...if we could do broadcast (not multicast) to build applications that take advantage of single transmission deliverable to multiple recipients
00:21:36 [Ian]
...what protocols would you create
00:21:52 [Ian]
...the hallucination I have is that satellites are raining packets down on millions of receivers.
00:22:05 [Ian]
...if we could do broadcast, what would we need in terms of protocols?
00:22:40 [Ian]
Jun: Actually, Vint, there is a Web and TV group that has been looking into that issue...not as a broadcasting protocol...
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00:22:54 [Ian]
... we have a demo here at the conference center
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00:23:05 [Ian]
... there is also work that's started in Europe.
00:23:35 [Ian]
Vint: Suppose we could make it possible to transmit data to people who are in certain geographic locations (e.g., for emergency services)
00:23:40 [Ian]
...you don't want everyone to have to receive that
00:23:56 [Ian]
...but if we could provide that in the protocol space, what would we do with it? What would we need to build?
00:24:12 [timeless]
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00:24:39 [Ian]
Jun: There are strong levels of trust necessary for some sort of interactions (e.g., doctor)...
00:24:55 [Ian]
...every single segment of industry and agriculture has a number of issues
00:25:08 [Ian]
...starting from new areas and analyzing what's missing will be necessary.
00:25:15 [timeless]
i|future in broad strokes|Topic: Leading to Breakout Sessions
00:25:18 [Ian]
Jun: I was impressed with the LG presentation
00:25:20 [timeless]
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00:25:27 [Ian]
...shapes other than rectangles
00:25:34 [Ian]
...for display
00:25:56 [Ian]
...I was speaking with a student at my university. She wants to be able to display whatever she wants to design.
00:26:12 [Ian]
...what would be needed to display things in other shapes? 3 dimensions?
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00:26:35 [Ian]
Timbl: There's been a lot of work put into enterprise data integration
00:26:40 [annbass]
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00:26:44 [Ian]
...typically without that a large company would not be able to function
00:27:00 [Ian]
...there's a push in some quarters that I should be able to get data that is about me.
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00:27:21 [Ian]
...I should be able to take all the data that various devices know about me (e.g., my phone in my pocket knowing that I'm sitting on stage)
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00:27:34 [Ian]
...all that data is relevant to my lifestyle and could be leveraged to make better choices.
00:27:43 [Ian]
...I think it would be nifty to enable that.
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00:28:13 [Ian]
Vint: There is an interesting challenge. Suppose we said "Everyone should have a right to have access to all the information you have about me." Tough question - how do you ensure that the requestor is the person the information should be delivered to?
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00:28:31 [Ian]
...which takes us back to the need for strong authentication without losing the ability to retain anonymity at will?
00:28:33 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html karl
00:28:37 [tantek]
Timbl brings up how he wants to own his data, from his phone etc.
00:28:53 [Ian]
Jeff: Thank you to the panelists, join me in thanking them!
00:28:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html Ian
00:29:20 [Ian]
Topic: Web Platform Incubator Community Group
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scribenick: deiu
00:30:45 [deiu]
Topic: Web Platform Incubator Community Group
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00:31:21 [deiu]
Yoav: Hi!
00:31:35 [deiu]
...first we would like to talk about use cases
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00:31:46 [deiu]
...the problem is that the Web is huge!
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i/scribenick/Jeff: HTML and WebApps have merged into Web Platform; Yoav will explain how we're moving forward
00:31:57 [timeless]
s/inserted/scribe
00:32:00 [deiu]
...there a billions of users, millions of devs and not many of us
00:32:07 [timeless]
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00:32:17 [deiu]
...all in all there are about 1000 people working on building the Web platform for the entire world
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00:32:42 [deiu]
...businesses need better building blocks; we don't know all the uses cases for the devs out there
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00:32:52 [timeless]
s/; Yoav/; Yoav Weis
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00:33:09 [deiu]
...whenever a Web developer is encountering a problem, they are supposed to come up with a description of that problem and bring it to the right working group
00:33:32 [deiu]
...this gets translated into implementations and features, which not always match the expectations
00:33:55 [timeless]
[ Slide showing truck that didn't make it under an underpass ]
00:34:02 [deiu]
...one way to tackle this problem is thorough an "extensible web"
00:34:05 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe/
00:34:15 [timeless]
i/extensible/[ Laughter ]
00:34:18 [deiu]
...we need to make less assumptions about what/how the dev will use the API
00:34:22 [timeless]
s/inserted/scribe/
00:34:38 [timeless]
s/...one/Yoav: one/
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s/...we/Yoav: we/
00:34:51 [timeless]
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00:35:04 [deiu]
Yoav: the problem is that a lot of devs just want to use the regular (high level) features that don't reinvent the wheel
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s/Slide showing truck/Slide: Truck/
00:35:26 [deiu]
...javascript has a high cost, downloading and parsing a lot of scripts
00:35:49 [deiu]
...we need to bake stuff in and to have high level features
00:35:56 [deiu]
...so how do we improve this process?
00:36:16 [timeless]
s|Truck|Truck (side showing: On the road to success / there are no shortcuts)
00:36:17 [deiu]
...we also need to get customers involved in this high-level feature development process
00:36:41 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
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00:36:42 [deiu]
...we also need to get more companies involved
00:37:03 [deiu]
Yoav: the solution we came up with is the Web Platform Community Group
00:37:20 [deiu]
...we want to get early feedback from the community and developers, leading to a better process
00:37:23 [timeless]
s/ underpass/ underpass (i.e. its top hit the overpass)
00:37:27 [yosuke]
s/Platform/Platform Incubator
00:37:41 [timeless]
s/Web Platform/WebPlatform
00:37:54 [deiu]
Chris: I would like to briefly give an overview
00:37:54 [deiu]
...the basic idea is that anyone can join the CG
00:38:18 [deiu]
...we already have members from the different groups
00:38:41 [deiu]
...if you have a problem you want to attack, you post it on the discourse and submit the problem on github
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00:39:24 [deiu]
...once you get other people to say it's an interesting problem, you move that idea to the incubator group
00:39:54 [deiu]
...you try and building momentum behind the idea
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00:40:17 [sam]
minutes
00:40:18 [deiu]
...if you think you want to move the idea to the REC track, you go and discuss with the chairs and then try to transition to a WG
00:40:22 [timeless]
[ Slide: Thanks! ]
00:40:26 [timeless]
s/minutes//
00:40:32 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:40:32 [RRSAgent]
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00:40:41 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe
00:40:43 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:40:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
00:40:45 [deiu]
Question: part of the inspiration for this IG was the responsive image, is that right?
00:40:55 [deiu]
Chris: yes, that is correct
00:41:01 [yosuke]
s/IG/CG
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00:41:10 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe
00:41:15 [timeless]
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00:41:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
00:41:40 [deiu]
Question from audience: how do you imagine the functioning of this CG to work?
00:41:53 [timeless]
s/timeless/scribe
00:41:56 [deiu]
Chris: we don't expect the CG to be the only place where discussion happens
00:42:03 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:42:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
00:42:23 [deiu]
...you will get more outside participation in CGs sometimes, but at the same time there's no interest for us to force people to only use this process
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00:42:36 [timeless]
s/Question from audience/florian_rivoal
00:42:46 [deiu]
Yoav: on top of that, you can also use the discourse instance as the platform to receive feedback
00:43:01 [timeless]
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00:43:33 [Bert1]
ScribeNick: Bert1
00:43:43 [Bert1]
Topic: Web Platform WG
00:43:45 [timeless]
s/Question:/florian_rivoal:
00:43:50 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
00:43:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
00:44:17 [Bert1]
Adrian replaces chaals
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00:44:39 [Bert1]
Adrian: WP groups combines most of delivs of WebApps and HTML
00:44:51 [Bert1]
… Really a transition
00:44:57 [Bert1]
… chartered for 1 year
00:45:24 [Bert1]
… Figuring out a more structured way to make progress on large # of delivs.
00:45:31 [Bert1]
… Is one group the best?
00:45:41 [timeless]
i/[ Slide: Thanks! ]/[ Slide: Thanks! ]
00:45:46 [timeless]
s/inserted/scribe/
00:45:47 [Bert1]
… Bringing together large # of organisations is important.
00:45:48 [annbass]
yay for Team scribes!
00:45:49 [timeless]
s/[ Slide: Thanks! ]//
00:45:53 [Bert1]
… But maybe lacks focus.
00:46:00 [timeless]
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00:46:00 [RRSAgent]
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00:46:03 [Bert1]
… Orgs may find IP review difficult
00:46:23 [Bert1]
… Maybe better struct will be more domain-specific expert together.
00:46:32 [Bert1]
… We'll try this next year.
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s/Adrian replaces chaals/(Adrian replaces chaals)
00:46:49 [Bert1]
… Maybe we'll fin this is the right struct. or maybe we find out what is.
00:47:07 [Bert1]
… What is the right struture ofr developing HTML spec?
00:47:11 [MattPisut_]
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00:47:18 [Bert1]
… Concensus was for more modular specs.
00:47:23 [yosuke]
s/ofr/of
00:47:26 [Bert1]
… HTML5 is huge spec.
00:47:27 [timeless]
s/fin this/find this/
00:47:32 [Bert1]
… Difficult to consume.
00:47:43 [Bert1]
… Important part of the platform.
00:47:58 [Bert1]
… Consensus last year was for more modular design. But difficult.
00:48:03 [Bert1]
… And little progress so far.
00:48:12 [Bert1]
… So work next year is to figure that out.
00:48:24 [Bert1]
… The plan is to have another break-out today.
00:48:36 [Bert1]
… Would be helpful if people have ideas.
00:48:40 [Bert1]
… Questions?
00:49:07 [Bert1]
tantek: Modularizing turned out difficult, you said. Maybe start with a minimal HTML5
00:49:19 [Bert1]
… a subset that is usable and desirable.
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00:49:28 [Bert1]
… Evidence exists that it is possible
00:49:43 [Bert1]
adrian: I said difficult, not *too* dissicult.
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00:49:56 [yosuke]
s/dissicult/difficult
00:50:04 [tantek]
evidence is the example of AMP as an experiment and proposal.
00:50:11 [Bert1]
mikeC: How do the chairs and team see the WG working together with the CG and the maintenanac eof th eold specs of prev. groups?
00:50:17 [Bert1]
adrian: Good q.
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00:50:34 [yosuke]
s/eof/of
00:50:34 [Bert1]
… Charter calls out for new work to start in cincubator group.
00:50:37 [yosuke]
s/eold/old
00:50:48 [Bert1]
… I past seen rush to adopt first proposal.
00:50:49 [fsasaki]
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00:51:02 [Bert1]
… Anddifficult to convince people we made a mistake.
00:51:09 [yosuke]
s/cincubator/the incubator/
00:51:16 [Ralph]
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00:51:18 [Bert1]
… Ability to start with rough idea, iterate.
00:51:26 [Bert1]
… Ideas may fall by wasyside.
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00:51:47 [Bert1]
… Co-chairs of incubator group can help people find a good home for proposals.
00:52:00 [Bert1]
… Incubator group continues to work on specs added to its charter.
00:52:07 [Bert1]
… We will maintain specs from the past.
00:52:09 [AxelPolleres]
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00:52:11 [Bert1]
… More interoperable.
00:52:21 [AxelPolleres]
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00:52:36 [Bert1]
… I'll be around today for more questions.
00:52:53 [Bert1]
Topic: rest of today
00:53:02 [timeless]
i/rest/[ Applause ]
00:53:05 [Bert1]
jeff: One slot before lunch.
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s/inserted/scribe
00:53:19 [Bert1]
… three this afternoon
00:53:41 [Bert1]
… Next half hour - 45 mins to put the breakouts together.
00:53:46 [timeless]
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00:53:46 [RRSAgent]
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00:53:51 [Bert1]
… Thanks to the people who set this up.
00:54:27 [Bert1]
… We all work to lead the Web to its full potential.
00:54:32 [Alan]
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00:54:36 [Bert1]
… I'd like to thanks the admin team
00:54:47 [timeless]
s/Anddifficult/And difficult
00:55:07 [Bert1]
… [names] who have done tremendous work
00:55:15 [Bert1]
… Also thanks to systems team.
00:55:28 [timeless]
s/wasyside/wayside/
00:55:30 [Bert1]
… We got some supporter companies also
00:55:31 [AndroUser2]
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00:55:43 [Bert1]
… [systeam names], thank you all!
00:55:59 [Bert1]
… Couldn't run it without the dedicated team here in Japan
00:56:08 [Bert1]
… entire Keio staff
00:56:13 [Bert1]
… Thanks!
00:56:30 [Alan]
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00:56:36 [Bert1]
… Also the speakers, panellists, in ACm,in WGs, and scribes!
00:56:56 [Bert1]
… Invite Ian up here to set up the rest of the day.
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00:57:42 [timeless]
scribenick: timeless
00:57:55 [timeless]
Ian: raise your hand if you have not participated in unconference
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00:58:01 [timeless]
[ some hands, not many ]
00:58:08 [timeless]
Ian: ok, so for those of you who are new...
00:58:17 [timeless]
... this is the chaotic portion
00:58:21 [timeless]
... there are 52 sessions
00:58:25 [timeless]
s/sessions/slots
00:58:32 [timeless]
... capacity (red at the top)
00:58:38 [timeless]
... I want to do a thing about XXZ
00:58:47 [timeless]
... imagine Adrian wants to do web payments in some room
00:59:00 [deiu]
s/XXZ/Web Payments architecture
00:59:05 [timeless]
... when we stabalize the board, it'll be obvious, and we'll transfer it to the web
00:59:12 [timeless]
... we have big pads to be layed out vertically
00:59:17 [timeless]
... we have smaller pads when things run out
00:59:20 [timeless]
... we have black markers
00:59:24 [timeless]
... any questions?
00:59:34 [timeless]
... it'll stablize and then you'll know when
00:59:39 [AndroUser2]
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ZQQ: which rooms have dialin?
00:59:45 [timeless]
Ian: Don't know
00:59:48 [timeless]
koalie: None
00:59:52 [timeless]
Ian: Other questions?
00:59:53 [timeless]
[ None ]
01:00:00 [timeless]
Ian: come up, put sessions on board
01:00:06 [timeless]
... you don't have to come up at once
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[ Rush ]
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glazou: cwilso, it's not a rugyby session
01:00:24 [Bert1]
s/ACm/AC/
01:00:30 [timeless]
s/rugy/rug/
01:00:41 [deiu]
s/ZQQ/Mark Watson
01:00:44 [timeless]
[ Scribing pauses while people make a mess of the grid ]
01:00:51 [timeless]
s/Mark Watson/MarkWatson
01:00:55 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:00:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
01:01:45 [timeless]
Ian: Another comment, for those who put their sessions in the wiki, thank you
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... we have a great selection ahead of us
01:01:59 [timeless]
... we didn't copy them, please come up and place yours on the board
01:02:09 [timeless]
... (we weren't sure if you were here)
01:02:24 [timeless]
s/[ Scribing pauses while people make a mess of the grid ]/
01:02:26 [timeless]
[ Scribing pauses while people make a mess of the grid ]
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01:10:57 [timeless]
PPA: We welcome you to attend (ZZZ)
01:11:33 [koalie]
s/PPA:/JudyZhu:/
01:11:47 [koalie]
s/(ZZZ)/HTML5 Testing breakout session/
01:18:08 [timeless]
Ian: within 5 minutes, we'll close the bidding
01:18:14 [timeless]
... chaals is here
01:19:32 [timeless]
s/AC,in/AC, in/
01:19:43 [timeless]
s/panellist/panelist/
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RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:20:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
01:20:39 [timeless]
s/…/.../G
01:20:41 [timeless]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
01:20:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html timeless
01:22:18 [timeless]
Ian: with that, we have a frozen board
01:22:26 [timeless]
... we'll be transferring that to the web site
01:22:33 [timeless]
... pictures are good too
01:22:51 [timeless]
... we're also tweeting the schedule, you can check it from the @w3c twitter account
01:22:54 [timeless]
... and I'll transfer that to Jeff
01:23:08 [timeless]
s/... and I'll transfer that to Jeff/
01:23:11 [timeless]
... thank you very much
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rrsagent draft minutes
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01:43:42 [giuseppe]
will someone fill in the wiki with the breakout sessions?
01:43:51 [yuwei]
rrsagent, draft minutes
01:43:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html yuwei
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quit
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01:47:39 [myakura]
rrsagent, publish minutes
01:47:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/27-tpac-minutes.html myakura
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Doug and I are done with feeding https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2015#Session_Grid with breakout sessions
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03:59:12 [naomi]
timeless++
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