IRC log of sdw on 2015-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

23:15:24 [RRSAgent]
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23:15:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-irc
23:15:39 [phila]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
23:15:46 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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23:29:19 [eparsons]
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23:30:47 [eparsons]
trackbot, start meeting
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RRSAgent, make logs world
23:30:49 [Zakim]
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23:30:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
23:30:51 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
23:30:52 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
23:30:52 [trackbot]
Date: 26 October 2015
23:31:13 [eparsons]
RRSAgent, make logs public
23:31:41 [eparsons]
Meeting: SDW WG TPAC Meeting Day 2
23:31:53 [eparsons]
present+ eparsons
23:32:02 [eparsons]
chair : eparsons
23:32:10 [stakagi]
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23:32:44 [eparsons]
Morning everyone... starting soon
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23:38:31 [Linda]
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23:38:36 [jtandy]
present+ jtandy
23:38:38 [LarsG]
present+ LarsG
23:38:38 [Linda]
present+ Linda
23:39:39 [ahaller2_]
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23:43:13 [LarsG]
scribe: LarsG
23:43:22 [LarsG]
scribeNick: LarsG
23:43:26 [BartvanLeeuwen]
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23:43:31 [BartvanLeeuwen]
present+ BartvanLeeuwen
23:44:43 [LarsG]
Topic: Notes from yesterday
23:45:14 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Problem is that featrure services choose their properties freely
23:45:30 [LarsG]
... has created standardised properties using URIs
23:45:41 [LarsG]
... is that out of scope for this WG?
23:46:24 [kerry]
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23:46:25 [LarsG]
jtandy: Canadian service stores its data in a special database but offer a web interface
23:46:45 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
23:46:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html phila
23:47:04 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: I want a standardised way to access the data.
23:47:27 [LarsG]
eparsons: The feature service can offer RDF
23:47:50 [phila]
present+ phila
23:47:59 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Is it in the scope of the WG to make a best practice for pulishing data from feature services?
23:48:12 [kerry]
present+ kerry
23:48:21 [phila]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web, TPAC F2F Day 2
23:48:24 [LarsG]
eparsons: There is none, but we can say: Add this element to your data and you'll be fine
23:49:20 [LarsG]
jtandy: Adding a URI is pretty straightforward, but making it webby is harder
23:49:33 [LarsG]
s/jtandy/eparsons/
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23:50:32 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Ambulance example again. The web feature service might not tell good enough what it is, but linked data with reasoning might help
23:51:12 [phila]
q+
23:51:21 [LarsG]
eparsons: WFS doesn't play well enough with Linked Data, catalogue servers need to expose the information well enough. There is a piece missing
23:51:58 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Catalogue service is not that necessary, but you need a standard way of doing things
23:52:14 [LarsG]
eparsons: Right, but there still is no best practice
23:52:26 [LarsG]
Linda: It will be in our testbed
23:52:43 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Where do we write it if it isn't a best practice?
23:52:52 [eparsons]
ack next
23:52:53 [phila]
ack me
23:53:21 [LarsG]
phila: Turning a feature service into something more discoverable, you want to automate that process
23:53:29 [LarsG]
... that is what Linked Data API is about
23:53:44 [LarsG]
... ELDO is an implementation
23:53:55 [BartvanLeeuwen]
s/ELDO/ELDA
23:54:48 [LarsG]
phila: the API is there to expose the database as LD doing dereferencing etc
23:55:17 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: assumes that there is a webby version of the feature service
23:55:29 [LarsG]
... but how do I link them together?
23:55:55 [LarsG]
eparsons: You might not just linkify the WFS, but you can create new service
23:56:15 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Right, but we should encourage people to webify their data
23:57:14 [LarsG]
Linda: new document about discoverability added to the BP
23:57:25 [LarsG]
ahaller2: Can we say that there is no best practice?
23:57:43 [LarsG]
... we can use the LD Platform etc, that is a best practice
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23:58:06 [LarsG]
eparsons: We need to identify best practicesa for spatial data
23:58:27 [LarsG]
ahaller2: In Linked Data clould there are examples of spatial data that are webified
23:58:44 [LarsG]
eparsons: there are different APIs (spatial and webby) where do they meet?
23:58:51 [LarsG]
... Can they meet at all?
23:59:24 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Will put this discussion in the API section
00:00:16 [LarsG]
Action: BartvanLeeuwen to put API discussion into BP document
00:00:16 [trackbot]
Error finding 'BartvanLeeuwen'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
00:00:55 [LarsG]
Topic: Identifiers
00:01:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ACTION: BartvanLeeuwen to write up a BP around properties in WFS to link a feature to its linked data version
00:01:00 [trackbot]
Error finding 'BartvanLeeuwen'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
00:02:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ACTION: Bartvanleeuwen to write up a BP around properties in WFS to link a feature to its linked data version
00:02:00 [trackbot]
Error finding 'Bartvanleeuwen'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/track/users>.
00:02:25 [LarsG]
jtandy: PROV-O is based on events. Do we need to discuss how to record time and location for prov events?
00:02:52 [LarsG]
ACTION: Bart to write up a BP around properties in WFS to link a feature to its linked data version
00:02:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-85 - Write up a bp around properties in wfs to link a feature to its linked data version [on Bart van Leeuwen - due 2015-11-03].
00:03:47 [LarsG]
jtandy: We don't write about BP for prov, but when it comes how to express temporal data, we might use a prov example
00:04:24 [LarsG]
kerry: that might not match what we do and we do that in owl:time anyway
00:04:47 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+ to introduce SEM
00:04:54 [LarsG]
... prov has no value here
00:05:09 [LarsG]
eparsons: We can revisit that later when it comes to best practices for time
00:05:14 [eparsons]
ack next
00:05:15 [Zakim]
BartvanLeeuwen, you wanted to introduce SEM
00:05:15 [jtandy]
s/has no value/adds no extra value/
00:07:11 [LarsG]
jtandy: it's too early to pick an ontology for events. Let's see what people use and how it works for them
00:07:54 [eparsons]
q?
00:07:56 [LarsG]
ahaller2: We don't need specific identifiers to solve the fuzzy event problem, it's not inherently spatiotemporal
00:08:20 [LarsG]
jtandy: It's different from fuzzy places (fuzzy extent)
00:08:29 [LarsG]
... we'll revisit that later
00:08:52 [LarsG]
Linda: Will we have fuzzy time as a best practice?
00:09:40 [LarsG]
jtandy: yes
00:10:39 [LarsG]
jtandy: relationship between versions of information resources
00:10:53 [LarsG]
... that describe spatial things
00:11:09 [LarsG]
... DWBP has BP for versioning
00:11:28 [LarsG]
... suggests to use the versioned-thing ontology
00:11:52 [LarsG]
... since there is nothing specifically spatio-temporal
00:12:08 [LarsG]
phila: This group should write to the DWBP and ask them to do that
00:12:22 [LarsG]
eparsons: Important, since we need something to point to
00:12:42 [LarsG]
jtandy: We should cite that in our BP
00:12:51 [LarsG]
eparsons: Does that fit with our time frame
00:13:07 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: don't know.
00:13:20 [LarsG]
jtandy: We'll revisit this until after coffee
00:13:29 [LarsG]
s/until after/after/
00:13:43 [phila]
-> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#dataVersioning Data versioning section in DWBP
00:13:50 [LarsG]
jtandy: We need to make people aware that it's OK that representations change over time
00:14:02 [stakagi]
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00:14:20 [LarsG]
... we need an example in the "expressing data" section
00:14:48 [LarsG]
... e. g. areas for police data
00:15:15 [LarsG]
eparsons: Right, and we should synchronise our document with DBWP
00:15:44 [Sangchul]
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00:15:53 [LarsG]
phila: There is an example in DBWP that uses memento
00:16:08 [mmiyaza__]
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00:16:11 [LarsG]
... good if jtandy could check that
00:16:46 [LarsG]
Action: jtandy to check the BP for versioning given in DWBP
00:16:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-86 - Check the bp for versioning given in dwbp [on Jeremy Tandy - due 2015-11-03].
00:17:18 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: don't cite work in progress normatively
00:18:14 [LarsG]
Linda: I've added that to the expressing data section
00:18:21 [phila]
DWBP's doc is ahead of the SDW work and should be at CR by Jan 2016 (it's Rec Track)
00:19:06 [LarsG]
topic: publishing with clear semantics
00:20:22 [LarsG]
https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives#publishing_data_with_clear_semantics
00:21:09 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: There is no way to make a feature service explain that the thing is an instance of e. g skos:Concept
00:21:46 [LarsG]
eparsons: The spatial component is secondary here, so it's flipping the view around
00:22:45 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: Most software tools construct hugh URIs for the features
00:23:03 [LarsG]
eparsons: So what is the best practice for using SKOS in our domain?
00:23:25 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: We use that for open data for fire service
00:23:57 [LarsG]
eparsons: that might be fine. We need to establish a BP, is there anytihing about spatial data that breaks skos?
00:24:18 [ijongcheol]
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00:25:02 [LarsG]
kerry: people use QB and thus SKOS for publishing sensor observations
00:25:26 [LarsG]
Linda: uses skos for publishing their information model, but there is nothing spatial about that.
00:25:39 [LarsG]
... we might not need to have SKOS as part of our BP
00:26:02 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: skos is mostly good enough for our purposes
00:26:08 [kerry]
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00:26:20 [LarsG]
... if you're fine with simple semantics, skos is fine
00:26:31 [LarsG]
jtandy: evolving case
00:27:28 [LarsG]
... several types of differently typed information, no top level governance
00:27:41 [LarsG]
... you try to reconsile this into a single service
00:28:04 [LarsG]
... all of that is spatial data
00:28:54 [LarsG]
... so our BP needs to say that publishers should also publish definitions of what their elements mean
00:29:10 [LarsG]
... WFS doesn't do that out of the bos
00:29:27 [LarsG]
eparsons: that information might be in a catalogue but not in the WFS itself
00:29:56 [LarsG]
jtandy: the WFS will serve GML data and might use a specific XML schema that might have that information (if it's online)
00:30:34 [LarsG]
... but if it's online you can look that up in the schema data that might refer to a UML model ...
00:31:52 [LarsG]
... there is a schema for GML that serves as a basis for application schemas
00:32:12 [LarsG]
... that every one publishes themselves (or not)
00:33:20 [eparsons]
q?
00:33:37 [LarsG]
jtandy: ... so we have JSON, feature data and hopes that someone has published an XML schema
00:34:01 [tanakahr]
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00:34:02 [LarsG]
... and linked data. Those who use linked data should publish their vocabularies
00:34:48 [LarsG]
... wth JSON it's just a name (so we don't know what it is)
00:35:08 [LarsG]
... we can put a context on top, JSON schema is another way
00:35:15 [LarsG]
s/wth/with/
00:35:36 [LarsG]
... this is a set of examples we can use to show people how to publish their definitions
00:35:56 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: but this is what DWBP says, too
00:36:17 [LarsG]
... GML is XML, so publish your schemas
00:36:33 [LarsG]
... and that doesn't say anything about semantics
00:37:01 [LarsG]
... and XML holds the geospatial community back (quoting Simon Cox)
00:37:19 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: There is text in DWBP, is that enough?
00:37:54 [hadleybeeman]
This is the Data on the Web BP doc; we're talking about BP 4 on structured metadata http://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/
00:38:18 [yeonsoo__]
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00:38:24 [hadleybeeman]
s/structured/structural
00:38:24 [LarsG]
jtandy: SDW to work with DWBP to ensure that our needs is covered by their work
00:38:41 [danbri]
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00:39:23 [eparsons]
danbri are you visiting us ?
00:39:27 [LarsG]
jtandy: Is there a way to say that this concept is similar to that concept?
00:39:49 [LarsG]
... how can we help the mashing-up process?
00:39:57 [LarsG]
... Can SKOS help with that?
00:40:16 [danbri]
eparsons yes, are there any particular sessions it'd be useful for me to join? multi-tasking somewhat…
00:40:19 [LarsG]
ahaller2: This is similar to the sameAs-discussion from yesterday
00:40:36 [LarsG]
jtandy: We're trying to match the semantic concepts
00:40:51 [LarsG]
phila: is ambulance a concept or a type
00:40:57 [eparsons]
danbri anytime... we are pb bashing all day
00:40:59 [LarsG]
... concept is not a panacea
00:41:12 [LarsG]
... everyone will do it differently
00:41:23 [LarsG]
... so just using semantics doesn't help
00:42:04 [LarsG]
eparsons: how can traditional geospatial data publishers use SKOS to give access to their catalogue?
00:42:26 [LarsG]
jtandy: There is work that converts the general feature model and creates a skos version of it
00:42:32 [LarsG]
... currently not online
00:42:45 [LarsG]
... this is a gap
00:42:54 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: not sure that is a best practice
00:43:19 [LarsG]
... a spatial thing is only one property of linked data representation
00:43:34 [LarsG]
... many people started to use skos instead of literals
00:43:54 [LarsG]
... you have feature services for all kinds of fire trucks, ambulances, etc.
00:44:52 [LarsG]
eparsons: we get most value from using skos for non-spatial things
00:45:07 [LarsG]
ahaller2: They use skos in DCAT
00:45:15 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: so then we have a best practice
00:45:43 [ahaller2]
s/DCAT/DCAT with a dcat:theme property
00:46:16 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: is this about drawing the line betwenn SDW and DWBP or is it about vocabulary selection?
00:46:44 [LarsG]
... we don't want the spec to be overly restricting
00:47:24 [LarsG]
eparsons: in a feature database about fires, there is a property about the location of the fire
00:47:39 [ahaller2]
+1 for hadleybeeman not restricting to specific vocabularies in the BP document
00:48:03 [LarsG]
... can we concentrate on the spatial aspect or do we have offer BP for the other information, too?
00:48:34 [LarsG]
... there are more complex use cases behind this
00:49:09 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: spatial semantics are not covered by skos
00:49:18 [LarsG]
eparsons: we need a spatial vocabulary, e. g. nearby
00:49:30 [LarsG]
... is there a defined vocabulary for this
00:49:47 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: but then it's spatial semantics about a specific feature
00:50:16 [LarsG]
... we need to split the semantics into two: spatial and the semantics/properties of the feature
00:50:39 [LarsG]
eparsons: that mght be a solution
00:50:57 [LarsG]
jtandy: thematic vs. spatial semantics
00:51:07 [LarsG]
s/mght/might/
00:53:07 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: assumes that relationships between precise spatial data are precise, too. What about "nearby"? Should those be dropped in favour of only precise relations?
00:53:34 [LarsG]
kerry: we had this yesterday and decided that those relations are topological and social, too
00:54:29 [LarsG]
jtandy: We meet in "trafalgar square". If we see it as a monument or a meeting place, doesn't matter, it's the same place
00:54:39 [LarsG]
ahal
00:55:04 [LarsG]
s/ahal/ahaller2: foaf has basedNear/
00:56:13 [LarsG]
kerry: there are three relations in geosparql
00:56:39 [LarsG]
... if we need a bp, that might be best for our community
00:57:32 [LarsG]
jtandy: getting everyone to agree on one vocabulary is impossible. That is more for intended audience and case-specific
00:57:51 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: that's much work but you'll get feedback immediately if it works or not
00:58:23 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: people might ignore the document if they don't think their case is not in there
00:58:42 [LarsG]
ahaller2: we could keep it generic and refer back to ontology patterns
00:58:59 [LarsG]
eparsons: there might be no best practice (gap)
00:59:10 [LarsG]
kerry: if there is no BP we cannot write anything
00:59:34 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: sometimes diversity is helpful
01:00:16 [LarsG]
... BP has to be testable, so we cannot just use defaults
01:00:29 [LarsG]
phila: BP is not to make any mistakes
01:00:45 [LarsG]
jtandy: summary: there is much we can say about spatial semantics
01:01:08 [LarsG]
... e. g. helping people to find the right vocabulary for the task
01:01:41 [LarsG]
... at 2014 workshop the community said they didn't know what vocabulary to use
01:01:53 [LarsG]
... and they need tools in order to support all of them
01:02:03 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: is this more about methodology?
01:02:43 [LarsG]
jtandy: Possibly. We need external feedback on "do we do this or that"
01:03:32 [LarsG]
... Do we provide a methodology to provide the right vocabulary or do we tell them what to do.
01:04:00 [ahaller2]
s/e. g./e.g.
01:04:07 [LarsG]
... The first is does not age.
01:04:18 [LarsG]
phila: We should offer durable advice
01:04:22 [kerry]
s/if there is no BP/ if we apply that test for BP, /
01:05:34 [LarsG]
jtandy: we want to provide a methodology to find the right vocabulary
01:07:06 [kerry]
q+
01:07:09 [LarsG]
eparsons: primary use case is to help people that have a database to publish that on the web and make it mashable
01:07:12 [eparsons]
ack next
01:07:39 [LarsG]
kerry: people that only have informal locations are left out by that
01:07:40 [Sangchul]
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01:08:05 [LarsG]
jtandy: like those that just want to publish about their village fête.
01:08:16 [LarsG]
... their methodology is different
01:09:11 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: So we do spatial semantics and DBWP the thematic semantics?
01:09:38 [LarsG]
jtandy: Yes, we don't want to give this advice
01:10:10 [LarsG]
phila: common question: how do I refer to a location?
01:11:09 [eparsons]
q?
01:11:48 [LarsG]
jtandy: thematic data is a broader problem
01:12:09 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: let us know if you find any exceptions to that hypothesis
01:12:58 [LarsG]
jtandy: cross-border fire operations is a thematic problem. Only the location part is spatial
01:13:14 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: the location might be what glues it together
01:13:39 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: but that's only for the location. The rest is thematic
01:14:34 [LarsG]
eparsons: sometimes we don't want to use GIS coordinate matching but just to say it's in the same village
01:16:17 [LarsG]
BartvanLeeuwen: just using the spatial component is too narrow, you need to use adminstrative info, too. Example being evacuating children to the nearest day care centre instead of to one that belongs to the same organisation
01:17:31 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: discovering data is different from data use.
01:17:51 [LarsG]
jtandy: part of discovery is finding related information
01:18:16 [LarsG]
hadleybeeman: we haven't discussed links between datasets
01:18:49 [LarsG]
jtandy: we can provide input to a new WG trying to solve that problem
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01:40:47 [BartvanLeeuwen]
scribe: BartvanLeeuwen
01:40:57 [BartvanLeeuwen]
scribeNick: BartvanLeeuwen
01:41:01 [danbri]
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01:41:15 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: Formalizing relation between SDW-WG and DWBP-WG
01:41:21 [kerry]
https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Theme_-_BPs_to_hand_over_to_other_WGs_in_W3C_or_OGC#structural_metadata
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01:48:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: updates yaso_ what the WG scope is.
01:49:30 [danbri]
q about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitemporal_data
01:50:40 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: explains the breakdown of themes
01:51:19 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... of the BP document
01:51:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
we are now looking where these themes actually meet some of the work that has been done in the DWBP WG
01:52:34 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... kerry made a list where we feel they are happening in the DWBP : https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Theme_-_BPs_to_hand_over_to_other_WGs_in_W3C_or_OGC#structural_metadata
01:53:06 [BartvanLeeuwen]
.. we need to figure out how we can work together on these subject
01:53:24 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... and if the DWBP has some spatial issues
01:53:44 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yaso_: I can't remember that we have encountered any specific spatial questions
01:54:12 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... we should setup a meeting between the editors to see where we could be complementary
01:54:34 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: there is a Web of Things breakout tomorrow, DWBP people should attend.
01:54:40 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yaso_: I'll go there
01:55:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yaso_: we didn't cover anything around machine learning and discovery of data
01:55:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: what would be the methodology to work together with the DWBP editors
01:56:04 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: we have cited about 8 BPs from the DWBP already
01:56:34 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... we need to be sure that DWBP is aware that we are citing them
01:56:58 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... people read our spec and will be forwared to the DWBP documents
01:57:18 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: we need to make sure that what you have written makes sense for our BP's as well
01:57:45 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... and see wheter we need aditional requirements in the DWBP
01:57:56 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: what would be the process ?
01:58:24 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yaso_: we have CR in march
01:58:55 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: we need to be aware of that we cannnot change after that
01:59:16 [stakagi]
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01:59:29 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: it will be normative so it will be solidified so we need to prioritize the work that relates to DWBP
02:00:11 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: in early december we need to have a touchpoint to see if what we have written down matches the DWBP documents
02:00:22 [danbri]
q+
02:00:33 [kerry]
q+
02:00:36 [BartvanLeeuwen]
ack danbri
02:00:56 [BartvanLeeuwen]
danbri: how does this group + DWBP relate to LDP ?
02:01:12 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yaso_: for DWBP it is not a focus for our group
02:01:13 [eparsons]
action eparsons Arrange meeting with DWBP editors to discuss citations in early December
02:01:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-87 - Arrange meeting with dwbp editors to discuss citations in early december [on Ed Parsons - due 2015-11-03].
02:01:33 [eparsons]
q?
02:02:20 [eparsons]
ack next
02:02:25 [Sangchul]
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02:02:39 [danbri]
subtext: if neither WG end up endorsing it as a best practice for (linked) data publication, this is important feedback to W3C w.r.t. any future rechartering of the LDP effort. c.f. https://www.w3.org/wiki/Linked_Data_2015_Final_Report
02:02:44 [BartvanLeeuwen]
hadleybeeman: we are aiming for REC date early July
02:04:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: there is a mention of the OGC in the DWBP document
02:04:59 [BartvanLeeuwen]
hadleybeeman: there is a difference in our best practices
02:05:31 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... the spec editors here are pointing to where others have possible solutions
02:07:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: to me the citation is to vague
02:07:03 [yeonsoo]
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02:08:22 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: talking about: http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#MetadataStandardized
02:08:47 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: we want to make sure that you are aware that we are citing your work
02:09:27 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: and at some point we want to make sure that we have communicated our changes early december
02:09:38 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... our BP is a NOTE not a REC
02:10:06 [BartvanLeeuwen]
hadleybeeman: it is good to know, a NOTE is more flexible.
02:10:33 [BartvanLeeuwen]
danbri: is there a chance that it will be redrafted
02:10:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: absolutelly not
02:10:51 [hadleybeeman]
s/it/the charter
02:11:07 [BartvanLeeuwen]
danbri: e.g. time ontology is too late
02:11:50 [BartvanLeeuwen]
danbri: I've heard you are not doing the time ontology
02:12:11 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: there is a proposal by Simon Cox to update the W3C Time ontology
02:12:32 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: we didn't start before we have something tangible around the BP
02:12:58 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: a updated timeline is on the group homepage, as stated in the charter
02:13:38 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: shall we talk about the touchpoints now ? or should we coordinate a meeting when the issues arrive
02:13:56 [BartvanLeeuwen]
hadleybeeman: if we have clear feedback you can pass it now, although we should not be the intermediars
02:14:32 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: maybe you should inform the group about this call, and they are aware that these questions might come up
02:14:42 [jtandy]
https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Theme_-_BPs_to_hand_over_to_other_WGs_in_W3C_or_OGC
02:15:02 [eparsons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
02:15:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html eparsons
02:15:23 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: these are also reachable from our main wiki page
02:15:51 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: anything the DWBP wants to address now ?
02:16:07 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yaso_: we are covering some issues they are covering as well
02:16:09 [eparsons]
q?
02:16:48 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... we have not touched e.g. IOT, maybe we can also give SDW some feedback
02:17:01 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... and cite the work on Sensors
02:17:52 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yaso_: we can explain publisher of sensor data that the SDW has BP's around of this type of data.
02:18:22 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: SVG Presentation
02:19:29 [deiu]
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02:19:31 [BartvanLeeuwen]
presenter: Satoru Takagi
02:19:45 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Topic: SVG and CRS
02:20:28 [stakagi]
http://www.slideshare.net/totipalmate/crs-and-svg
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02:21:25 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: in charge of the SVGWG standarization of mapping
02:21:54 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: focus on map content as graphics
02:22:09 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: the presentaiton is about the GAP between SVG and spatial
02:22:52 [BartvanLeeuwen]
SVG coordinates are unrelated, called user coordinate sytem
02:24:50 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: explains how the user CRS can be mapped on a map based on the SVG 1.1 spec
02:25:18 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... by including metadata in the SVG header
02:26:02 [BartvanLeeuwen]
issue, no body is using in SVG2 it will be removed
02:26:45 [LarsG]
s/no body/nobody/
02:27:29 [BartvanLeeuwen]
re-examintion: markup should be simpler, browsers should support CRS, concept of CRS should be generalized
02:30:34 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: stakagi thank you
02:31:04 [ahaller2]
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02:31:28 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: about slide 13, CRS is highly controversial
02:31:38 [ijongcheol]
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02:31:44 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... we have talked about a 'General' CRS
02:32:03 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... it has been a long discussion inside the OGC
02:32:53 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: although we are spatial data on the web we have use cases where are not just talking about earth reference
02:33:16 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: we are not sure we will have a answer in your timeframe
02:33:36 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: the challenge we face is that we want Spatial data easier to use on the web
02:33:55 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... most people assume that spatial data works in Google Maps
02:34:07 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... but they don't because they don't know about CRS
02:34:27 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... geospatial people are more picky on CRS choice
02:34:27 [timbl]
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02:34:47 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: in our group we are aware that a CRS is important part of the data
02:34:55 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... but we discuss a default
02:35:26 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: when we talk about publishing spatial data we talk about explicit mentioning CRS, or a general default
02:35:43 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q?
02:36:04 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: you still should be able to process the default CRS
02:36:54 [BartvanLeeuwen]
LarsG: there are technologies that have a default CRS already e.g. GeoJSON and WGS84 vocab is WGS84 CRS
02:37:12 [BartvanLeeuwen]
LarsG: the problem is the vocabularies which don't express the default explicitly
02:37:47 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: we could use that as a selection criteria
02:38:11 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... if you don't care about CRS, use a vocab that has a default. Otherwise use a vocab where you can supply
02:38:43 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: we need to be able to say in SVG if it is a map, or a illustration
02:39:29 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: CRS is not just geospatial, for us it is clear that CRS can be used for documents as well
02:39:50 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: one of our examples is Microscope slides, not spatial
02:40:06 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: in OGC they call this a unprojected CRS
02:40:53 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: is the naming for such a CRS acceptable
02:41:30 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: is it acceptable that other none spatial applications talk about CRS ?
02:42:02 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: when the spatial people talk about specific CRSs they talk about a Spatial Reference System SRS
02:42:35 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: different communities have slightly different definitions what a CRS system is, we don't have a problem with that
02:43:24 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: there is a transformation question as well
02:43:33 [BartvanLeeuwen]
eparsons: projections are very hard to transform
02:44:07 [BartvanLeeuwen]
Linda: ogc describes how to describe transformation services
02:44:36 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yeonsoo: is SVG about 2d or 3d ?
02:44:49 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: currently is talking about 2d
02:45:03 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: CRS in spatial are 3D mostly
02:46:11 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: we might publish data which has elevation, SVG renders just the 2D
02:46:32 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: but this is a transformation that needs to be done by the rendering engine
02:46:43 [BartvanLeeuwen]
... we don't standardize those services
02:46:50 [danbri]
q+ to ask about SVG + CRS in http://www.w3.org/TR/sdw-ucr/
02:47:00 [eparsons]
q?
02:47:11 [eparsons]
ack next
02:47:12 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask about SVG + CRS in http://www.w3.org/TR/sdw-ucr/
02:47:35 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: SVG is only 2d, but css supports 3D already
02:47:56 [BartvanLeeuwen]
stakagi: it could also be done with a CSS transformation
02:48:26 [BartvanLeeuwen]
danbri: how much usecases do we have on this ?
02:48:45 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: the charter explicitly says putting things on maps is out of scope
02:48:54 [ahaller2]
s/usecases/use cases
02:49:26 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yeonsoo: how many people are from industy
02:49:39 [ahaller2]
s/industy/industry
02:49:49 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: we have 50 uses cases from government, accademics and industry
02:50:18 [LarsG]
s/accademics/academia/
02:50:42 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yeonsoo: we develop applications for egovernment
02:50:56 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yeonsoo: how can I supply use cases and requirements
02:51:15 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: be aware that mapping, putting elements on a map is out of scope
02:51:39 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: go to our UCR FPWD and see if it matches any of your uses cases
02:51:59 [jtandy]
use case editors draft: http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirements.html
02:52:10 [BartvanLeeuwen]
kerry: if you have comments please add them to the comments list
02:52:30 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
02:53:54 [BartvanLeeuwen]
yeonsoo: is weather radar data in scope ?
02:53:58 [BartvanLeeuwen]
jtandy: YES !
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03:36:31 [LarsG]
LarsG has joined #sdw
03:37:09 [danbri]
danbri has joined #sdw
03:42:02 [kerry]
scribe: kerry
03:42:03 [eparsons]
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03:42:27 [kerry]
scribeNick: kerry
03:42:56 [kerry]
===returned from lunch====
03:44:37 [kerry]
jtandy: we talked about publishing data with clear semantics
03:45:23 [kerry]
...with dwbp guests we concluded that we will focus on spatail semantics and other "thematic" semantics will be referred to DWBP
03:45:39 [kerry]
... we will check with wider sdw membership
03:46:06 [kerry]
...spatail semantics is the kind of semantics you would express in a gazetteer
03:46:15 [LarsG]
s/spatail/spatial/
03:46:22 [kerry]
... recognise that there is other but that is out of scope for us
03:46:45 [kerry]
...this is a proposal unless ...
03:47:24 [kerry]
.ed: it is that thematic semantic language that is important, but we need to handle the geospatail to add to that.
03:48:14 [kerry]
jtandy: we will provide how to recognise that two datasets are talking about the same place but we do not concern with the validity or compatibilty of thematic elements
03:48:42 [kerry]
linda: captured this associated with sameas relation yesterday
03:49:25 [kerry]
jtandy: addtion is that once you have determined sameplace we will not do anything about reconciliation of the ambulances
03:50:22 [kerry]
s/addtion/addition/
03:51:10 [kerry]
linda: so we are not addressing thematic reconciliation
03:51:33 [jtandy]
jtandy has joined #sdw
03:51:36 [phila]
phila has joined #sdw
03:52:09 [danbri]
rrsagent, pointer?
03:52:09 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-irc#T03-52-09
03:52:20 [danbri]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
03:52:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html danbri
03:52:53 [kerry]
propose: that we do not address thematic reconciliation , ie, we deal with semantic reconciliation of of spatial concepts only
03:53:18 [kerry]
s/of of/ of/
03:53:22 [BartvanLeeuwen]
+1
03:53:25 [eparsons]
+1
03:53:26 [jtandy]
+1 ... thematic reconciliation is a problem, but not in our scope
03:53:27 [LarsG]
+1
03:53:33 [kerry]
+1
03:53:33 [danbri]
+1
03:53:35 [Linda]
+1
03:54:39 [kerry]
jtandy: eg we do not help with reconciling air quality and No2
03:55:02 [ahaller2]
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03:55:18 [kerry]
danbri: but can you help with weak paris and precise paris?
03:55:30 [kerry]
jtandy: yes, that is our job
03:56:22 [kerry]
jtandy: if you have air quality and traffic counts in a commen spatail region -- we can help with joining the space pat, but not the air quality and traffic counts
03:56:41 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
03:56:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html phila
03:56:43 [kerry]
resolved: that we do not address thematic reconciliation , ie, we deal with semantic reconciliation of of spatial concepts only
03:57:05 [kerry]
s/of of/
03:57:14 [phila]
RESOLUTION: that we do not address thematic reconciliation , ie, we deal with semantic reconciliation of of spatial concepts only
03:57:37 [phila]
s/of of/of/g
03:57:37 [kerry]
jtandy: what about sensor data?
03:57:53 [kerry]
eparsons: we might have to create best practice there
03:59:34 [kerry]
jtandy: do we want to say these terms are equivalent --e.g. (missed this)
03:59:50 [kerry]
eparsons: yes
04:00:23 [kerry]
jtandy: if we publish some statements that this terms is equivalent to that term we are not tellingthem which vocab to use
04:00:45 [kerry]
armin: the authors of that vocab might not like this
04:01:07 [BartvanLeeuwen]
q+ to propose a NOTE for geo vocab comparison
04:01:23 [kerry]
lars: if the vocabs are poorly documented we should not recommend using it at all -- noone can make sense of it
04:01:46 [eparsons]
ack next
04:01:47 [Zakim]
BartvanLeeuwen, you wanted to propose a NOTE for geo vocab comparison
04:01:51 [kerry]
jtandy: if we find something widely but inconsistently used we might advise avoiding it
04:02:09 [kerry]
danbri: but we could say here is a good way of using it
04:02:31 [kerry]
bart: geonames has a mapping
04:02:57 [kerry]
jtandy: we want to community of practice to tell us what you use and we could publish this
04:03:02 [ahaller2]
s/armin/ahaller2
04:03:09 [kerry]
linda: yes this is useful
04:03:31 [ahaller2]
s/lars/LarsG
04:03:35 [kerry]
jtandy: is this our BP or a complementary note as suggested by Bart
04:04:17 [kerry]
bart: note could be done quickly as several already exist eg. geonames to schema.org -- should be nicer than this
04:04:54 [BartvanLeeuwen]
http://www.geonames.org/ontology/mappings_v3.01.rdf
04:05:41 [kerry]
jtandy: useful discussion about enabling reconciliation with other vocabs issue
04:06:13 [kerry]
jtandy: moving on to "which vocab should i use to describe my data anyway"
04:06:52 [kerry]
.... we know we are going to provide amethodolgy to help people chhose which geospatial vocab to use
04:07:25 [danbri]
..ooO(is a Village Fete a http://schema.org/Festival ?)
04:07:25 [kerry]
...we have the "data liberation" for the SDI market and the "village fete" for content/app developers
04:08:53 [ahaller2]
s/chhose/choose
04:09:40 [danbri]
cf http://www.w3.org/TR/ld-bp/
04:09:40 [kerry]
jtandy: next is "how should i publish my vocab"
04:09:51 [kazue]
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04:10:05 [kerry]
...want to say these exist, here are some you can use, please don't make nay new ones
04:10:29 [kazue]
present+ kazue
04:11:30 [kerry]
armin: in ssn and maybe time we need to link to other vocabs -- how do we publish the link to other ontologies?
04:11:36 [eparsons]
q?
04:11:44 [kerry]
....or is this in the description of the ontology?
04:12:08 [kerry]
....jtandy is this best practice or is it rec track for ssn deliverable?
04:12:11 [LarsG]
s/armin/ahaller2/
04:12:38 [kerry]
... here we are not making a recommendation about relationships to other vocabs
04:13:09 [kerry]
phila: charter allows us to create new vocabs if we wish
04:13:33 [kerry]
jtandy... this is about applying in some context, a spcial realationship, that some tool might parse
04:14:09 [kerry]
ahaller: refer back to linked data for the first one...
04:14:41 [ahaller2]
s/linked data /linked data best practises
04:14:47 [kerry]
linda: we (audience) know how to build a vocab but we do not know how to link and how important that is
04:15:11 [kerry]
phila: youu write a w3c note that says we thing these terms are the same? is this helpful?
04:15:26 [LarsG]
s/youu/you/
04:15:31 [danbri]
(saying if/when http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-reference/#mapping is useful would be great imho)
04:15:31 [kerry]
eparsons: it not jus tthe mappings, thyere is also advice as linda said. We should focus on this
04:15:55 [danbri]
q+
04:16:04 [eparsons]
ack next
04:16:34 [kerry]
phial: we are proposing to do this , noit to advise people to do it
04:16:52 [ahaller2]
s/noit/not
04:16:58 [kerry]
danbri: maybe we should use skos mapping realtions for this
04:17:16 [danbri]
q?
04:17:21 [ahaller2]
s/jus tthe/just the
04:17:37 [kerry]
jtandy: suggest we included a statement about some useful mechanisms to map
04:17:43 [ahaller2]
s/phial/phila
04:17:58 [kerry]
...here we have done some already, have a look at these and try to resuse
04:18:37 [ahaller2]
s/ahaller/ahaller2
04:18:50 [kerry]
LarsG: rdf vocabs or controlled vocabs? skos not much use for linking between classes and properties -- this is owl
04:19:39 [kerry]
jtandy: browsing semnatic mappings this morning discusion , and discovering them -- starting a new group was suggested, it is too hard for us
04:20:04 [ahaller2]
s/semnatic/semantic
04:20:14 [ahaller2]
s/discusion/discussion
04:21:09 [kerry]
LarsG: aboutness -- what is this data set about the thematic part -- skos is about what things are about , skos is not solving relationships beween classes
04:21:47 [kerry]
eparsons: can we say which approach to use
04:22:02 [kerry]
LarsG: yes -- depends on the use
04:22:31 [kerry]
s/resuse/reuse/
04:23:07 [kerry]
linda: <reads from bp doc record here> but we will need to expand on this
04:23:26 [kerry]
jtandy: keep the scope quite narrow -- agreed?
04:23:31 [kerry]
agreement
04:23:36 [eparsons]
+1
04:23:52 [kerry]
jtandy: "different views on same resources" issue
04:23:59 [kerry]
...not my problem
04:24:15 [kerry]
BartvanLeeuwen: like this morning covered this
04:25:02 [kerry]
jtandy: there is nt a great deal of best pratice here --- could be a job for that other new group
04:25:23 [kerry]
jtandy: "mapping data in multiple formats" that's about thematic data
04:25:38 [kerry]
eparsons: agrees
04:25:43 [kerry]
phila: agrees
04:25:57 [kerry]
jtandy: so we will not make any statements as not special for us
04:26:20 [kerry]
Linda: so this clear semantics
04:26:27 [kerry]
...is quite small now
04:26:56 [kerry]
jtandy: so now this "clear semantics" couold be folded into "expressing geospatail data"
04:27:25 [kerry]
eparsons: but expressing a feature is different to the realtionships bewtween the things
04:27:41 [kerry]
Linda: but taht is also in this section
04:27:47 [kerry]
s/taht/that/
04:28:13 [kerry]
jtandy: pub data with clear semantics section should be about the meaning of the spatial relationships we need
04:28:23 [phila]
present+ ErikMannens, BenWS
04:28:27 [kerry]
...and we put examples in the "expressing" section
04:29:08 [kerry]
eparsons: no -- expressing will talk about loch ness geometry but the relationships (eg inside) will go here
04:30:12 [kerry]
jtandy: ok, so we still have these 2 sections, one for representating the object and the other (here) for relationships with other objects
04:30:52 [kerry]
ahaller2: sounds like a data pointin issue -- do we ahve a way of linking to the semantic description ffom e.g.kml (like csv on the web does)
04:31:41 [kerry]
eparsons: not sure... armin wants to add an identifier to some data say in kml, but id does link kere becuase whatever the encoding is we will be saying you need to add this bit
04:32:01 [yeonsoo__]
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04:32:04 [kerry]
jtandy: we said yesterday a bout a table of formatds and what bp will work in that format
04:33:10 [kerry]
...sidew discsussuon about status of geojson-ld
04:33:16 [kerry]
s/sidew/side/
04:33:25 [ahaller2]
s/pointin/binding
04:33:32 [ahaller2]
s/ahve/have
04:33:39 [ahaller2]
s/ffom/from
04:34:01 [ahaller2]
s/e.g.kml/e.g. kml
04:34:08 [ahaller2]
s/kere/here
04:34:12 [danbri]
nearby: Geo JSON-LD github community's issue list: https://github.com/geojson/geojson-ld/issues
04:34:14 [kerry]
jtandy: ok we keep this section on publishing with clear semantics for the gateer type problem
04:34:18 [ahaller2]
s/becuase/because
04:34:32 [ahaller2]
s/sidew/side
04:34:45 [kerry]
jtandy: summariese issues covered so far
04:34:47 [ahaller2]
s/discsussuon/discussion
04:35:06 [ahaller2]
s/summariese/summarise
04:35:08 [danbri]
@phila - specifically for where they are blocked see https://github.com/geojson/geojson-ld/issues/32 "Yes, it's a known issue. RDF applications are going to have to treat the coordinates as a blob, like it was imagery or audio. I can't see any way around that. I also can't see any benefit to exploding a complex multipolygon into triples."
04:35:10 [kerry]
eparsons: lets do the ones that need a tighter scope
04:35:15 [ahaller2]
s/gateer/later
04:35:32 [kerry]
topic: "enabling discovery"
04:35:50 [kerry]
Linda: waht is special about spatial
04:37:01 [kerry]
eparsons: sdis are taking the role of (censored) like shiny photographs that you cannot touch
04:37:07 [kerry]
linda: agrees
04:37:37 [LarsG]
s/waht/what/
04:38:09 [kerry]
eparsons: complex metadata requirements that separates the content from the discovery process -- metadata portal may not be accurate
04:38:12 [Sangchul]
Sangchul has joined #sdw
04:38:29 [kerry]
...as long as sdis exist you will not have linkable goepsatail data
04:38:40 [kerry]
jtandy: we want discovery at the entity level
04:40:18 [kerry]
eparsons: we need a different approach
04:40:44 [kerry]
LarsG: but we need to rescue the data first
04:41:20 [kerry]
jtandy: we need discovery of the spatial things and the datasets
04:41:36 [kerry]
...DWBP deals with datasets alright already
04:41:59 [kerry]
phila: see also geodcat-ap
04:42:01 [danbri]
https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/node/139283/
04:42:29 [kerry]
Linda: they have spatail and temporal coverage (spatail extent)
04:42:46 [kerry]
s/spatail/spatial/
04:43:14 [kerry]
jtandy: we want to tell people how to describe the spatail aspect of the data set
04:43:22 [kerry]
s/spatail/spatial/
04:43:49 [kerry]
...geocat-ap says how to do this (or we could recommend iso19115 metadata)
04:44:07 [phila]
-> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#DescriptiveMetadata What DWBP says about dataset discovery
04:44:19 [kerry]
eparsons: if you want to discover at individuals features you could describe the data set by noting all the features
04:44:42 [kerry]
... postboxes in amsterdam + 3000 urls of postboxes in amsterdam
04:45:11 [kerry]
jtandy: made assumption that you use the dataset description to find the service enpoint and then you get to the thing
04:45:28 [kerry]
eparsons: i dont want to talk to the enpoint
04:45:54 [LarsG]
s/enpoint/endpoint/g
04:46:11 [kerry]
phila: we would like wfs et al to generate lots of web pages that could be crawled -- can we do this to those standards?
04:46:14 [danbri]
q+ for z39.50 analogy
04:46:31 [kerry]
eparsons: if we do not they will not work
04:46:39 [eparsons]
ack next
04:46:40 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to discuss z39.50 analogy
04:46:47 [kerry]
phila: will this group say wfs should do this?
04:47:22 [kerry]
jtandy: yes -- we will say this is how it has to be done --- this 2-step stuff has to go
04:48:29 [kerry]
danbri: like the libary community and z39.50 --lots of commitment to this but you don't aks them to do this
04:48:40 [kerry]
...you create alternatives like websites wrapped around it
04:49:03 [kerry]
eparsons: a change will have to happen
04:50:14 [kerry]
phila: if our result is wrappers to create crawlable wrappers -- great, but we cannot tell the ogc to change their spec
04:50:31 [kerry]
various: yes we can, we are an ogc group
04:51:05 [kerry]
linda: there is the testbed, with a deliverable that is a wrapper tool over w*s for this purpose
04:51:19 [kerry]
phila: this sounds bigger than a section in a bp doc
04:51:34 [kerry]
eparsons: yes
04:51:41 [kerry]
q+
04:51:58 [kerry]
eparsons: this is what nanaimo did
04:52:29 [kerry]
danbri: this is what the libraries are doing too -- avoid words like deprecate
04:53:34 [kerry]
jtandy: we are saying this is what you have to do.... not that you should not do what you arelady do
04:53:37 [eparsons]
ack next
04:55:20 [kerry]
kerry: does this conflict with our ssn objectives?
04:55:45 [kerry]
jtandy: no, it is consistent --- we will showw what the "web" interface should look like
04:56:27 [kerry]
ben: does this make a difference if behind a paywall?
04:56:40 [kerry]
jtandy: no--- same approach
04:57:24 [kerry]
topic: enabling discovery: discovey of datasets and the features/attributes they contain
04:58:06 [kerry]
jtandy: we want to summarse all the objects the dataset talks about -- makes crwaling easy but maintainence might be hard
04:58:08 [ahaller2]
s/discovey/discovery
04:58:20 [ahaller2]
s/summarse/summarise
04:58:29 [ahaller2]
s/crwaling/crawling
04:58:47 [kerry]
eparsons: the collectionlevel entity should be created from individual components -- is not separate from the entities
04:59:01 [kerry]
...othersise it will not get done
04:59:07 [ahaller2]
s/maintainence/maintenance
04:59:19 [kerry]
...manage the entities themselves and aggregate to collection
04:59:21 [ahaller2]
s/othersise/otherwise
04:59:53 [kerry]
lars: is there a bp for publishing link sets
05:00:25 [kerry]
....talked about a joint note with dwbp for this
05:01:18 [kerry]
phila: answering for hadley.... a note it would be good to have people outside spatail world, suggests people from pacific nw and lawrence berkely labs
05:01:19 [eparsons]
q?
05:01:39 [ahaller2]
s/spatail/spatial
05:01:52 [kerry]
action: phila to write to us labs to get participation in the joint linksets note
05:01:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-88 - Write to us labs to get participation in the joint linksets note [on Phil Archer - due 2015-11-03].
05:02:07 [ahaller2]
s/us/US
05:02:38 [kerry]
eparsons: one of the big concerns -- how can we know who is using our data? this backlinks will help a lot
05:03:30 [kerry]
jtandy: (shows demo) of linked resources and sets of spatial things and sameas relationships -- this is a gnon demo
05:04:41 [kerry]
....identifier matches to related0d resources, uses link sets to summarises at dataset level -- and says to go looking into a service to get the individual detail
05:04:53 [yaso_]
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05:04:53 [kerry]
s/0//
05:05:45 [kerry]
jtandy: i think they are called technical features -- here i s some practice we can show but not completely
05:05:58 [LarsG]
https://gbv.github.io/beaconspec/beacon.html
05:06:02 [kerry]
LarsG: beacon file format is like this
05:06:17 [kerry]
LarsG: mapping sets of identifiers to each other
05:06:50 [kerry]
LarsG: has a header and prefixes and a csv-like format. header says what is realtion between pairs of identifiers
05:07:26 [kerry]
...this is kind of a link set
05:07:53 [kerry]
jtandy: linkset says go here to find more -- but this is a way of representing the links
05:08:23 [jtandy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/void/#describing-linksets
05:08:27 [kerry]
...describing linksets in void
05:08:40 [kerry]
... is similar
05:09:15 [kerry]
....beacon could express links outside of data that does not do it itself
05:09:35 [kerry]
lars.... they curate the link in the wikipedia page which is then exported to beacon format
05:09:51 [kerry]
eparsons: like the simplicity
05:10:35 [kerry]
jtandy: if we want to find ifo about a particular place
05:10:48 [kerry]
.s/ifo/info/
05:10:55 [kerry]
s/ifo/info/
05:11:48 [kerry]
jtandy: datacube uses placenames as a dimension... can quickly find realted thematic data
05:11:57 [ahaller2]
s/realted/related
05:11:58 [kerry]
s/real/rela/
05:12:24 [kerry]
eparsons: does constrain you to the scope of the gazetteer
05:13:40 [kerry]
linda: summary of enabling discovery: i have very little
05:13:55 [kerry]
.... <reads from bp doc>
05:14:45 [kerry]
eparsons: should say that some ogc services will need to be modified for discovery
05:14:59 [yeonsoo]
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05:15:20 [kerry]
... we need to make a statements that the current wxs services need another layer on top to expose their content
05:15:49 [ahaller2]
s/statements/statement
05:15:59 [kerry]
eparsons: is this dicoverability or apis?
05:16:19 [kerry]
Linda: why do we need this? to make it more discoverable and linkable
05:16:34 [LarsG]
s/dicoverability/discoverability/
05:16:41 [kerry]
jtandy: tbp is to make a crawlabe page for each spatail thing
05:16:50 [kerry]
s/tbp/bp/
05:17:10 [LarsG]
s/crawlabe/crawlable/
05:17:21 [kerry]
...you might want to layer this over the top of a wxs to achieve this
05:17:31 [LarsG]
s/spatail/spatial/
05:17:44 [kerry]
eparsons: you might need more -- for identifiers and merging in extra data that was not here
05:18:06 [kerry]
jtandy: this should go in exposing APIs section
05:19:05 [kerry]
Linda: for discovery one solution is to make crawlable pages
05:19:23 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
05:19:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html phila
05:19:38 [kerry]
jtandy.. and to make it linkable you ned uris for each resource, then the next step is to generate a crawlabe page for each of these
05:19:52 [kerry]
s/cralabe/crawlable/
05:20:09 [ahaller2]
s/jtandy../jtandy...
05:20:22 [kerry]
eparsons: you need more than just a wrapper over wxs for the identifiers
05:20:29 [phila]
present+ Cherif, danbri, mmiyazaki, Sangchul
05:20:36 [kerry]
jtandy: linksets or beacon format...
05:20:41 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
05:20:54 [kerry]
Linda: i have this in linking data -- should i move it? \
05:21:10 [kerry]
jtandy: this is needed for backlinking
05:21:30 [kerry]
eparsons: also give a mechanism to measure data usability
05:21:41 [kerry]
Linda: will move that stuff to doscovery then
05:21:47 [kerry]
s/dos/dis/
05:22:15 [kerry]
jtandy: datacube to describe datasets that could be described as a set of places
05:22:45 [kerry]
...this place is described in that daset which is bound to that datacibe dimension thatis ... (missed)
05:23:15 [kerry]
ACTION: jtandy to write how this datacube/gazeteer/foreign key works
05:23:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-89 - Write how this datacube/gazeteer/foreign key works [on Jeremy Tandy - due 2015-11-03].
05:24:02 [kerry]
armin: the gazeteer here could be a simple named graph/graph uri
05:24:38 [kerry]
phila: beacon looks interesting -- now wildcards? you have to name every thing . would be good to have regular expressions
05:24:55 [kerry]
armin: would break the url?
05:25:10 [kerry]
phila: browser would iterfer with you
05:25:27 [kerry]
jtandy: use rfc6750
05:25:45 [ahaller2]
s/iterfer/interfere
05:27:17 [kerry]
topic: enabling discover: summary records (metadata) - spearate metadata records?
05:27:35 [kerry]
s/cover/covery/
05:29:19 [kerry]
eparsons: publishing grou metadata is the linkset thing
05:29:33 [kerry]
LarsG: might be a need .... behinf the paywall
05:29:50 [kerry]
eparsons: e.g.wiki sitemaps
05:30:31 [kerry]
topic: enabling discovery: where do i discover what is available for use based on current context (space and time)?
05:31:05 [kerry]
jtandy: how can you do this in a search engine?
05:31:40 [kerry]
danbri: search engines do not have this product
05:32:30 [kerry]
jtandy: e.g i type in sapporo
05:32:49 [kerry]
jtandy: gogle knows i am talking about the place
05:33:03 [kerry]
eparsons: the bit on the side comes from the knowledge grapg
05:33:27 [ahaller2]
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05:34:31 [kerry]
eparsons: the knowledge grapg part knows that sapporo is a place
05:34:46 [kerry]
s/grapg/graph/
05:35:10 [kerry]
ahaller2: you want to query for sapporo is a type of place
05:35:35 [kerry]
jtandy: yes -- you want spatial and temporal context for the search
05:36:30 [kerry]
eparsons: there is a chicken and egg -- a lot of this thematic data is not avail to search engine-- eg behind inspire geoportal
05:36:40 [danbri]
e.g. https://developers.google.com/structured-data/testing-tool/?url=http://travel.cnn.com/tokyo/sleep/hokutosei-sleeper-train-tokyo-sapporo-905418
05:36:45 [danbri]
has a City named Tokyo
05:37:16 [danbri]
via a google custom search restricted to pages describing a (schema.org)'City' https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=013484121852858951051:_k8pkh6pfio
05:37:27 [kerry]
eparsons: we sugested people put kml arounf the wms endpoint to provide a spatail extent that was open to google parsers
05:37:56 [kerry]
jtandy: so the linking is still text based matching -- google knowledgegraph might get t his
05:39:53 [kerry]
eparsons: that is already there
05:40:13 [ahaller2]
s/t his/this
05:40:27 [kerry]
eparsons: usong knowledge graph only -- e..g. "and when was he born?"
05:40:51 [kerry]
LarsG: can we quesy danbri about sameas in google.org
05:41:31 [yeonsoo]
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05:42:30 [kerry]
danbri: dealing with anchoring a blank node against a well known page
05:43:00 [timbl]
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05:43:04 [kerry]
...it does not have to be an html page, couild be pdf or anything
05:43:31 [kerry]
...its just a url that can be used to join data
05:43:45 [kerry]
...itcould be a mailto: url
05:44:19 [ahaller2]
ahaller2 has joined #sdw
05:44:21 [LarsG]
s/quesy/query/
05:44:33 [kerry]
jtandy: and on to basic geo spatial thing
05:44:35 [LarsG]
s/google.org/schema.org/
05:44:58 [kerry]
danbri: was cyc-influenced-- may be too all-encompassing
05:45:56 [kerry]
... we did not think about it too much
05:46:30 [kerry]
jtandy: do we want to subtype this for spatasil objects with fuzzy or unknown boundaries?
05:47:43 [kerry]
s/spatasil/
05:48:33 [ahaller2]
kerry: proposes that considering that SpatialThing does not say much, we need a stronger statement
05:49:14 [kerry]
eparsons: is this causing confusion now? if so we could tidy it up, if not -- its ok to reuse
05:49:56 [kerry]
break now, and meet back at 4:15
05:50:03 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
05:50:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html phila
05:50:20 [kerry]
rrsagent, draftminutes
05:50:20 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'draftminutes', kerry. Try /msg RRSAgent help
05:50:33 [kerry]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
05:50:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html kerry
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07:39:37 [ahaller2]
scribe: ahaller2
07:39:43 [ahaller2]
scribeNick: ahaller2
07:40:10 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
07:41:34 [ahaller2]
BartvanLeeuwen: Question: Kerry proposed to define something else than SpatialThing, what do you mean?
07:41:52 [ahaller2]
kerry: only the spatialThing
07:42:20 [ahaller2]
BartvanLeeuwen: on the Web there is a lot of geo:lat and geo:long, we should not alienate the community
07:42:37 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we should definitely not do that
07:43:03 [ahaller2]
kerry: geo lat and long should stay
07:43:22 [LarsG_]
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07:43:47 [ahaller2]
BartvanLeeuwen: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater
07:44:52 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: I thought kerry was suggesting to have a subclass of SpatialThing that is more precisely defined
07:45:41 [phila]
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07:45:43 [ahaller2]
jtandy: our resources are member of multiple sets, we can live with SpatialThing
07:46:04 [rachel]
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07:46:05 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we can document why you may need other things in special cases
07:46:37 [ahaller2]
jtandy: in expressing geospatial data we may need to include some statement about the limitations if there are any of the SpatialThing
07:48:59 [ahaller2]
next agenda item
07:49:17 [ahaller2]
eparsons: what to do next?
07:52:22 [ahaller2]
agenda+ What to do next?
07:52:27 [ahaller2]
next agenda item
07:52:50 [ahaller2]
kerry: go through the BP document in our next telco
07:54:38 [ahaller2]
phila: should we meet in Washington D.C. at the next OGC meeting
07:55:11 [ahaller2]
kerry: we can make a poll to decide if we go to this OGC meeting or to the AC meeting in Boston
07:56:02 [ahaller2]
Linda: another possibility is to host it in the Netherlands
07:56:28 [ahaller2]
LarsG: netherlands sounds very good
07:56:47 [ahaller2]
BartvanLeeuwen: who is from the US in the working group?
07:57:16 [ahaller2]
phila: Josh Liebermann
07:58:00 [ahaller2]
BartvanLeeuwen: Dublin is the next OGC meeting in June
08:00:22 [ahaller2]
... is June too late?
08:00:29 [yaso_]
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08:01:17 [ahaller2]
jtandy: we need to think about timescales?
08:02:24 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we need to think what we do first?
08:03:05 [ahaller2]
kerry: time seems easiest, then SSN and the coverage will be the hardest
08:03:23 [ahaller2]
... but we could do Time and SSN simultaneously
08:03:40 [ahaller2]
phila: the chinese crowd may want to participate in the coverage part
08:04:02 [ahaller2]
eparsons: bill roberts would be the editor for the coverage deliverable
08:05:02 [ahaller2]
jtandy: mike and john blower from reading university are also interested in the coverage work
08:05:58 [ahaller2]
... Australian geoscience data cube is another interesting thing
08:07:00 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we can't handle four things simultaneously
08:07:21 [ahaller2]
phila: other groups do that by alternating the topics in the weekly phone calls
08:07:50 [ahaller2]
... in order to get the extension next year we need a lot more to be done by end of next year
08:11:07 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: I don't think that there will be much overlap in terms of people interested between SSN and time, apart from probably Simon
08:11:34 [ahaller2]
jtandy: we also need the input from the SSN working group for the BP
08:12:16 [ahaller2]
... I would not mind to start both in the next couple of weeks
08:12:55 [ahaller2]
eparsons: if we only do the BP every three weeks, do we get enough feedback in the weekly meetings
08:13:18 [ahaller2]
jtandy: weekly meetings should be a report card
08:13:55 [ahaller2]
kerry: what if we do half BP every meeting and the other half either SSN or Time
08:14:20 [ahaller2]
jtandy: in the weekly meetings we propose resolution
08:15:32 [ahaller2]
eparsons: so how comfortable are we with coverage
08:15:49 [ahaller2]
... to start when next year?
08:16:50 [danbri]
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08:17:34 [ahaller2]
s/john blower/jon blower
08:17:55 [ahaller2]
s/mike and/maik reichardt and
08:18:17 [ahaller2]
eparsons: we are kick-starting Time and SSN in the next couple of weeks
08:19:24 [ahaller2]
kerry: next week is all about updating group about this meeting
08:19:36 [ahaller2]
... the week after is then BP and kick start Time
08:19:52 [ahaller2]
... and the week after BP and SSN kick start
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08:22:34 [ahaller2]
Linda: are we not talking about UCR anymore in the weekly meetings
08:22:48 [ahaller2]
s/weekly meetings/weekly meetings?
08:24:09 [ahaller2]
kerry: i am happy to pause on the UCR
08:25:05 [ahaller2]
eparsons: can we have a call next week between the UCR and the BP editors
08:26:42 [ahaller2]
phila: timeline for first working draft of BP?
08:26:50 [ahaller2]
jtandy: end of november
08:27:13 [ahaller2]
phila: we need a static version for the OGC
08:27:50 [ahaller2]
phila: 21st of december to 2nd of January we can not publish
08:28:25 [ahaller2]
... latest date for us is 17th december, need to have a static version of the document on the 18th of November
08:28:30 [ahaller2]
jtandy: not going to happen
08:29:12 [ahaller2]
... why can't we put it up on the W3C site in early december, and then do the OGC process
08:31:07 [ahaller2]
ahaller2: can't we have a version that we consider stable as a working draft and hand it over to the OGC and then continue on in the group
08:31:26 [ahaller2]
jtandy: they do not have the concept of an interim draft
08:32:12 [ahaller2]
... i believe we can get to a reasonable editors draft by the end of november (and I mean end!)
08:32:30 [ahaller2]
... we may miss the W3C deadline for publishing before december
08:33:01 [ahaller2]
kerry: first week in december will be the phone call when we resolve that
08:33:53 [ahaller2]
jtandy: i don't mind the 2nd of december
08:34:32 [ahaller2]
phila: why not have a stable version before Christmas
08:34:41 [ahaller2]
kerry: let's aim for the 9th of December
08:35:24 [ahaller2]
eparsons: approximately 30 days from the 9th will be the publishing deadline
08:36:41 [ahaller2]
kerry: so we are looking at the 12nd of January for the publication date
08:37:42 [ahaller2]
eparsons: back to the F2F
08:38:09 [ahaller2]
Linda: we can host any time
08:41:40 [ahaller2]
eparsons: 8-10th of March
08:41:44 [Linda]
ACTION: Linda to find out if we can host a meeting 8-9-10 february in the Netherlands.
08:41:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-90 - Find out if we can host a meeting 8-9-10 february in the netherlands. [on Linda van den Brink - due 2015-11-03].
08:42:12 [ahaller2]
s/of March/of February
08:45:10 [ahaller2]
ACTION: phila to send an email to OGC to fix the Thursday publishing deadline issue
08:45:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-91 - Send an email to ogc to fix the thursday publishing deadline issue [on Phil Archer - due 2015-11-03].
08:49:31 [ahaller2]
LarsG: does it matter for the W3C if the comments are on the BP doc in github or published version
08:49:43 [ahaller2]
phila: it would be better it is an immutable version
08:51:28 [ahaller2]
agenda+ Address Comments on the minutes from yesterday
08:51:36 [ahaller2]
next agenda item
08:54:59 [ahaller2]
jtandy: discussing the two potentials in Bill Roberts email on ease of publishing versus machine readability
08:55:13 [ahaller2]
s/potentials/potential approaches
09:03:29 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:03:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/26-sdw-minutes.html phila
09:10:59 [rachel]
quit
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