15:47:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #privacy
15:47:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-privacy-irc
15:47:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 263
15:47:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:47:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:47:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Privacy Interest Group Teleconference
15:47:48 <trackbot> Date: 22 October 2015
15:47:55 <npdoty> rrsagent, make logs public
15:50:00 <Lukasz> Present+ Lukasz_Olejnik
15:54:01 <npdoty> present+ npdoty
15:55:15 <tara> tara has joined #privacy
15:56:49 <wseltzer_transit> regrets+ wseltzer
15:57:09 <npdoty> Zakim, clear agenda
15:57:09 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:57:35 <christine> christine has joined #privacy
15:57:44 <npdoty> agenda+ Welcome and introductions
15:57:58 <npdoty> agenda+ Geofencing API http://www.w3.org/TR/geofencing/
15:58:14 <npdoty> agenda+ Privacy and Security Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy_and_security_questionnaire
15:58:21 <npdoty> agenda+ Outstanding items
15:58:28 <npdoty> agenda+ AOB
15:59:04 <Lukasz> regrets+ Lukasz_Olejnik
16:00:38 <tara> Waiting for more folks to join the WebEx before getting started...
16:03:18 <kodonog> kodonog has joined #privacy
16:04:07 <npdoty> volunteers to scribe?
16:04:30 <moneill2> moneill2 has joined #privacy
16:04:47 <npdoty> moneill2 or kodonog, care to scribe for us today?
16:05:35 <moneill2> ok
16:05:44 <npdoty> present+ moneill2
16:05:47 <npdoty> present+ kodonog
16:05:51 <npdoty> present+ tara
16:05:57 <npdoty> present+ christine
16:06:07 <npdoty> present+ mandyam
16:06:16 <npdoty> scribenick: moneill2
16:06:23 <npdoty> chair: christine, tara
16:08:02 <npdoty> Zakim, take up agendum 1
16:08:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Welcome and introductions" taken up [from npdoty]
16:08:05 <moneill2> Gary is giving background
16:08:10 <npdoty> S/Gary/Giri/
16:08:28 <moneill2> Gary is chair of geolocation group
16:08:33 <npdoty> S/Gary/Giri/
16:08:36 <tara> I can see the first slide w/sidebar.
16:10:14 <npdoty> Zakim, take up agendum 2
16:10:14 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Geofencing API http://www.w3.org/TR/geofencing/" taken up [from npdoty]
16:10:29 <moneill2> <gary> interoperabilty has been problem on mobile web. Geofencing ability to draw a geometrical shape determine if user device is inside or outside fence
16:11:05 <moneill2> <gary> Qualcom had pre-standard implementations on Android
16:12:13 <moneill2> <gary> 18month ago restarted geolocation group, came up with geofencing API. Based on service workers, allowing web developer to persist a process
16:12:58 <npdoty> [slide 2]
16:13:36 <moneill2> <gary> no consensus on https origins
16:14:31 <moneill2> <gary> geofencing API uses https origins, better privacy than geolocation
16:16:03 <moneill2> <gary> there is a privacy & security section
16:16:26 <wseltzer_transit> s/<gary>/Giri:/G
16:16:49 <npdoty> [slide 4]
16:17:26 <moneill2> <gary> only circular region defined so far
16:17:37 <npdoty> [slide 5]
16:19:20 <npdoty> [slide 4]
16:20:14 <Lukasz> Present+ Lukasz_Olejnik
16:20:34 <Lukasz> present+ Lukasz
16:20:46 <moneill2> <gary> requires a developer opt-in. Service workers requires data persistence
16:21:07 <npdoty> yeah, that persistence kind of scares me, since it's potentially entirely in the background
16:22:15 <moneill2> <gary> pervasive monitoring risk, what is users home location etc. is a problem. some solutions being talked about by browsers
16:23:01 <moneill2> <gary> should this be solved in API, or in meta context
16:23:09 <npdoty> q+
16:23:44 <tara> ack ch
16:24:13 <moneill2> <nick> some potentially scary things about user awareness
16:24:38 <moneill2> <nick> we need to give some guidance
16:25:05 <npdoty> if I load a page on my friend's computer and then it works in the background forever, can I just track my friend's location into the future forever?
16:25:12 <moneill2> <gary>  this is broader than geofencing, more and more sensor API functionality
16:25:16 <moneill2> q
16:25:21 <npdoty> ack me
16:26:03 <moneill2> <gary> maybe some best practices requirements for service workers?
16:26:36 <moneill2> <nick> have we talked to service worker group?
16:26:56 <moneill2> <gary> Ping needs to raise this right now
16:27:45 <Lukasz> clear visibility/transparency display in browser UI
16:28:27 <moneill2> <nick) work item for PING
16:29:59 <tara> <moneill> Had there been any discussion of using the Permissions API?
16:30:12 <npdoty> moneill2: revocability and expiry of permissions
16:30:22 <tara> q?
16:30:36 <moneill2> <gary> geolocation is in permission spec
16:32:37 <moneill2> <gary> guidance from PING on deviceorientation, access to sensors determine pin entry etc.
16:33:28 <moneill2> <gary> effort in device api working group
16:33:58 <npdoty> regarding deviceorientation: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2015Aug/0003.html
16:34:19 <christine> +q
16:34:27 <npdoty> giri: deviceorientation is widely deployed, but never issued a Last Call
16:34:40 <moneill2> <christine> perpective on how we can coordinate at TPAC
16:35:09 <christine> christine is tara
16:35:31 <npdoty> s/<christine>/tara:/
16:35:53 <moneill2> <gary> geolocation TPAC agenda available, in joint meeting with automotive working group
16:36:33 <npdoty> ack christine
16:36:51 <moneill2> <christine> can you be at IETF/PING meeting
16:37:37 <npdoty> q+ on timeline
16:37:51 <moneill2> +q
16:38:18 <tara> ack np
16:38:18 <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to comment on timeline
16:38:40 <moneill2> <nick> Nick will be at TPAC, when do we need to resolve thee issues
16:39:04 <moneill2> you are fading out gary
16:39:53 <npdoty> giri: on timeline, still have technical issues re: geofencing spec that need to be resolved
16:40:10 <npdoty> ... concerned about the stability of the questionnaire
16:40:28 <npdoty> ... if it's in good shape, can settle on a collective response to the questionnaire in quick order
16:40:35 <npdoty> ... would like it to be done no later than the end of November
16:40:36 <moneill2> <gary> still some tech issues, need to be resolved first, in questionaire is in good face, put to bed by end Nov
16:41:34 <moneill2> <nick> we need to keep changing questionaire
16:41:57 <moneill2> <gary> general issue with service workers, needs to be sorted
16:42:06 <npdoty> q?
16:42:41 <moneill2> <nick> serviceworkers not on PING list as of now, but it will be
16:42:53 <npdoty> ack moneill
16:43:16 <npdoty> moneill2: where do we find out about what's happening with service workers? is there a general requirement about data persistence for service workers?
16:43:35 <npdoty> giri: process persistence for service workers which requires some data persistence
16:44:03 <npdoty> ... then there are actual identifiers for the service worker themselves (scope URL), those identifiers also seem to persist
16:44:42 <npdoty> ... and underlying geolocation data is persisted in the sense of boundaries
16:45:04 <npdoty> ... Web Apps Working Group is working on Service Workers
16:45:17 <npdoty> https://slightlyoff.github.io/ServiceWorker/spec/service_worker/#security-considerations
16:45:33 <npdoty> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/
16:46:15 <npdoty> giri: on our first geofencing implementation, we wanted a level of process persistence, and had a Persistent Web Workers, which we had trouble commercializing because of the problem of end user management
16:46:31 <npdoty> ... should we add UI to the browser? can the user see which worker is active? shut down workers?
16:46:55 <npdoty> ... had concluded that that kind of UI was going to be necessary
16:46:59 <moneill2> <gary> user manageability of erviceworkers was not resolved, ened up as a trade off, ui is necessary, dont know if it will happen
16:47:24 <moneill2> thanks gary
16:47:55 <npdoty> I'll add Geofencing and Service Workers to our ongoing wiki list
16:47:56 <chaals> Present+ chaals
16:48:02 <npdoty> Zakim, take up agendum 3
16:48:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Privacy and Security Questionnaire https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy_and_security_questionnaire" taken up [from npdoty]
16:48:29 <npdoty> Greg is regrets, who's been working on this particular item
16:48:49 <moneill2> <christine> maybe talk about TPAC agenda, in short time left, TPAC great opportunity
16:49:02 <npdoty> Topic: TPAC preparation
16:49:50 <chaals> q+
16:50:11 <moneill2> <nick> webapps sound like a priority, e.g serviceworkers
16:50:36 <npdoty> ack chaals
16:51:05 <moneill2> <chaals> webapps group is now webplatform , meeting on tuesday about serviceworkers
16:52:27 <moneill2> <chaals> webplatfor is also covering everything html, chaals is joint chaire, user context has clerar privacy issues
16:52:34 <npdoty> chaals, is there a link on that? I'm not familiar with that particular a11y work
16:53:14 <moneill2> <nick> serviceworker discussion, should we try to raise discussion earlier
16:53:33 <moneill2> <chaals> issues should be raised online on GitHub
16:54:00 <moneill2> <chaals> question has this been taken into account
16:54:17 <moneill2> <tar> other TPAC items?
16:55:21 <moneill2> <nick> webpayment WG announced, al lot of privacy questions, early stage a good time to discuss privacy
16:56:08 <chaals> -> https://w3c.github.io/indie-ui/indie-ui-context.html latest draft of User Context spec, now a deliverable for some WAI group...
16:56:15 <npdoty> Topic: AOB
16:56:31 <npdoty> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Privacy/Privacy_Reviews
16:56:54 <moneill2> +q
16:57:10 <npdoty> ack mon
16:57:36 <npdoty> moneill2: Permissions API (WebAppSec), it would be good to talk to people there at TPAC
16:57:39 <chaals> s/some WAI group/the ARIA working group/
16:57:46 <npdoty> ... in terms of user awareness and control
16:58:20 <npdoty> npdoty: sure, I'll try to look at that while at TPAC, and can share some comments on the list
16:59:04 <chaals> [unfortunately I won't be in the meetings, although I will be at TPAC and hope to catch up with people there]
16:59:18 <npdoty> 26 November is Thanksgiving (US)
16:59:33 <npdoty> 3 December?
17:00:22 <moneill2> bye
17:00:36 <npdoty> trackbot, end meeting
17:00:36 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:00:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been npdoty, runnegar, tara, JoeHallCDT, LCPolan, KatieHS, Haritos-Shea, Lukasz_Olejnik, moneill2, kodonog, christine, mandyam, chaals
17:00:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:00:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/22-privacy-minutes.html trackbot
17:00:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:00:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items