14:44:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
14:44:22 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-annotation-irc
14:44:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:44:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #annotation
14:44:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
14:44:26 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:44:27 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:44:27 <trackbot> Date: 21 October 2015
14:44:29 <ivan> Chair: Rob
14:44:57 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Oct/0102.html
14:45:09 <azaroth> azaroth has joined #annotation
14:45:51 <ivan> Regrets+ Frederick, Paolo, Dinesh
14:46:20 <azaroth> azaroth has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Oct/0102.html
14:47:04 <azaroth> TPAC Agenda page: https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Meetings
14:55:46 <chrisbirk> chrisbirk has joined #annotation
14:57:34 <Kyrce> Kyrce has joined #annotation
15:00:03 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
15:00:50 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
15:01:03 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
15:01:08 <azaroth> Chair: Rob_Sanderson
15:01:21 <azaroth> Present+ Tim_Cole, Kyrce_Swenson
15:01:58 <ivan> Present+ Ivan
15:02:23 <Jacob> Present+ Jacob_Jett
15:02:40 <Kyrce> Present+ Kyrce_Swenson
15:03:05 <chrisbirk> Present+ Chris_Birk
15:03:30 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:03:32 <chrisbirk> signing in
15:03:45 <azaroth> s/signing in//
15:04:46 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #annotation
15:05:30 <azaroth> Scribe: Tim_Cole
15:05:36 <ivan> scribenick: TimCole
15:05:38 <azaroth> ScribeNick: TimCole
15:07:01 <TimCole> azaroth: no conference call next week because of TPAC
15:07:26 <TimCole> ... will decide about post-TPAC call (1st week of Nov) while at TPAC
15:07:37 <TimCole> Topic: Minutes
15:07:39 <azaroth> proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 21 September approved:
15:07:39 <azaroth> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/14-annotation-minutes.html
15:07:41 <shepazu> present+ shepazu
15:08:02 <TimCole> RESOLUTION: Minutes from 21 September approved: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/14-annotation-minutes.html
15:08:26 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
15:08:41 <TimCole> Topic: State proposal (Benjamin)
15:09:07 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
15:09:34 <azaroth> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Oct/0106.html
15:11:39 <davis_salisbury> davis_salisbury has joined #annotation
15:11:44 <TimCole> bigbluehat: hypothes.is we render pdf through pdf.js, will do same with EPub or may use Readium
15:11:58 <davis_salisbury> present+ davis_salisbury
15:12:12 <TimCole> ... the DOM layout in the PDF rendering has changed several times, requiring us to fall back to fuzzy anchoring, etc.
15:12:36 <TimCole> ... but if we recorded the viewer used when annotating we could fall back better
15:12:43 <azaroth> q+ to ask if the "state" is about the annotation creation state, or the representation state of the resource
15:13:07 <TimCole> ... in html we use an XPointer approach, but even there you might want to know that viewer being used
15:13:28 <TimCole> ... if all you record in the annotation is the selector with out regard to viewer you could have issues
15:13:36 <azaroth> q?
15:13:37 <TimCole> ... know the viewer allows you to do more
15:13:40 <azaroth> ack azaroth
15:13:40 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to ask if the "state" is about the annotation creation state, or the representation state of the resource
15:14:25 <TimCole> azaroth: the state that you're interested in is the state of the renderer of the resource when the annotation was created
15:14:47 <TimCole> ... not the state of the resource at a particular time, or the representation provided to the viewer
15:15:01 <TimCole> ... could hasState be used to record this?
15:15:27 <TimCole> bigbluehat: it is not really request state, but it is rendered resource state (i.e., client side)
15:15:55 <TimCole> azaroth: regardless of how the information is recorded in the annotation, what would a subsequent client use this information for
15:16:21 <TimCole> ... so if you used a particular version of pdf.js and htat was recorded, a client could revert to that version?
15:16:43 <TimCole> ... or have some other intelligence to help recreate the proper anchoring.
15:16:48 <azaroth> q?
15:17:25 <TimCole> bigbluehat: the client could choose the right viewer, decide when to go to fall back, etc.
15:17:44 <shepazu> q+
15:17:57 <TimCole> azaroth: it seems like to me that a generator might be sufficient, so hypothes.is and the version of pdf.js used
15:18:28 <TimCole> bigbluehat: perhaps, you need to understand the selector in light of the generator
15:18:46 <azaroth> ack shepazu
15:18:49 <TimCole> ... you need to understand from the generator (or whereever) that this resource was rendered this way.
15:20:32 <TimCole> shepazu: generator makes sense, but is the annotation being created through a component of hypothes.is rather than the whole thing
15:21:01 <TimCole> ... the generator of that annotation as a whole is a package, but the component doing the work may be external to the package
15:21:13 <azaroth> q+ to agree re !generator
15:21:32 <TimCole> ... sensible to think about multiple strings for generator, but it is not exactly a good fit to current understanding of generator
15:21:49 <TimCole> ... but seems state-like as well
15:22:17 <TimCole> ... people are going to use non-standard states, and arbitrary values in generators, making it hard for other engines to adapt to it
15:22:54 <bigbluehat> agree on the !generator stuff
15:23:00 <azaroth> ack azaroth
15:23:00 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to agree re !generator
15:23:17 <azaroth> http://www.idpf.org/epub/oa/#h.sfczx2yhse91
15:23:30 <TimCole> azaroth: I am convinced about state rather than generator
15:23:43 <TimCole> ... equivalent to EPub rendention state
15:24:09 <TimCole> ... EPub clients make use of rendition state in a similar fashion to what's wanted here.
15:24:32 <TimCole> ... perhaps there is a generic rendering state property, but not sure what that would be
15:24:33 <shepazu> q+
15:24:36 <azaroth> ack shepazu
15:24:45 <TimCole> ... perhaps we want to discuss DPub folks during TPAC
15:25:11 <azaroth> +1 to avoiding "Best Viewed in X"
15:25:22 <TimCole> shepazu: i do get uncomfortable talking about having to use a particular generator product
15:25:32 <bigbluehat> agreed. this can also totally be ignored by the consumer--and should be speced as such
15:25:43 <TimCole> ... so would prefer not to say 'this is best viewed in IE' (or whatever)
15:25:51 <bigbluehat> the other states can also be ignored, fwiw, if someone wants to attempt reanchoring on the "latest" etc
15:26:05 <TimCole> ... something more generic would be better, and avoid browser-sniffing
15:26:30 <TimCole> ... some mix of standard rendering state values and custom values
15:27:02 <azaroth> q+ to note HTML rewriting?
15:27:08 <azaroth> ack azaorht
15:27:14 <TimCole> bigbluehat: this should be optional, and should not change our understanding of selectors in general.  Mostly for optimization and should be safe to ignore.
15:28:02 <TimCole> azaroth: I noted that different browsers and toolkits will rewrite HTML to insert extra nodes, etc. Maybe we could align with that sort of thing
15:28:17 <TimCole> ... and say here is a transformation of the original resource on which the annotation was made.
15:28:26 <azaroth> ack azaroth
15:28:26 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to note HTML rewriting?
15:28:34 <TimCole> ... less about the agent and more about the format and structure on which the annotation was made.
15:29:37 <bigbluehat> So. It strikes me that all of this is actually Selector related
15:30:01 <TimCole> shepazu: we could say that the resource was modified like html5 is modified when rendered, and this is what you need to know to understand the annotation
15:30:12 <TimCole> ... the question is where do we put this in the data model
15:30:58 <TimCole> bigbluehat: a lot of our original use cases from DPub were about optimizing the selector
15:31:33 <TimCole> ... and a lot of this needs to be about optimizing the selector and deciding when to fall back (when you can't reconstruct the rendering state)
15:32:00 <TimCole> ... we want to be careful not to invite viewer-specific fragment identifiers
15:32:28 <TimCole> shepazu: are you suggesting it needs to be on the selector not on the resource state?
15:33:23 <TimCole> bigbluehat: yes, if I knew that the XPath selector was for the PDF, and then made an equivalent anchor in another format, that's what I want to make sure is possible.
15:33:32 <TimCole> ivan: what's the next step
15:33:51 <bigbluehat> +1 to discussing with EPUB
15:33:56 <ivan> +1
15:33:59 <ivan> q+
15:34:07 <TimCole> azaroth: we should discuss with DPub at TPAC, and potentially also without other folks (e.g., HTML 5 rewrite)
15:34:08 <azaroth> ack ivan
15:34:28 <bigbluehat> s/EPUB/DPUB
15:34:38 <TimCole> ivan: must be careful not to mix up EPub and DPub in our discussions next week
15:34:53 <TimCole> ... DPub has not really looked at details of annotation in EPub.
15:35:27 <TimCole> azaroth: Benjamin, can you work up a proposal such that we can discuss at TPAC internally and on the mailing list?
15:35:31 <bigbluehat> +1
15:35:45 <Kyrce> q+
15:35:45 <azaroth> q?
15:35:54 <azaroth> ack Kyrce
15:36:35 <azaroth> ACTION bigbluehat to create draft proposal for Rendering state/selector
15:36:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Create draft proposal for rendering state/selector [on Benjamin Young - due 2015-10-28].
15:36:43 <azaroth> q?
15:37:04 <TimCole> Topic: Agenda for TPAC
15:37:10 <azaroth> https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Meetings
15:37:59 <TimCole> azaroth: first day mostly meeting with other groups and talking about client side issues
15:38:13 <shepazu> q+
15:38:21 <TimCole> ... and coming to grips with the second half of our deliverables
15:38:29 <ivan> q+
15:38:34 <TimCole> ... second day will be more about protocol and other issues.
15:38:44 <TimCole> ... this accommodates Doug's schedule.
15:39:00 <TimCole> ... there are some open, unstructured times to discuss other issues as needed.
15:39:17 <TimCole> ... but want feedback from those who are going to be there.
15:39:33 <azaroth> ack shepazu
15:39:41 <TimCole> ... in particular are there other joint meetings needed.
15:40:09 <TimCole> shepazu: only the last quarter of the day would be focused on findText
15:40:26 <TimCole> ... not sure how much we can get done on clientAPI if Nick isn't there
15:40:52 <azaroth> ack ivan
15:40:58 <TimCole> azaroth: will update agenda accordingly, but need at least a brief discussion of what we need to do and how we're going to get there.
15:41:26 <TimCole> ivan: on social web slot, do we have people from the social web grouop? who will be around?
15:41:39 <TimCole> azaroth: at least ??? and Amy Guy
15:42:05 <ivan> s/???/Sarven/
15:42:37 <TimCole> ... if it turns out we don't have enough from social to make it useful, we will still have other protocol issues, e.g., search, to make progress on.
15:42:57 <chrisbirk> I will not be able to make it there, correct
15:43:07 <TimCole> ivan: at some point we have to begin discussing about testing
15:43:33 <TimCole> ... we need to start by looking at what do we want to test? What are the things in the spec that have to be tested.
15:43:36 <azaroth> q+ to suggest testing at 1:30 Monday ?
15:43:50 <azaroth> ack azaroth
15:43:50 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to suggest testing at 1:30 Monday ?
15:43:53 <TimCole> ... in some cases relatively clear, in other cases not so much.
15:43:58 <shepazu> +1 to talking more about testing in general
15:44:36 <TimCole> chrisbirk: will not be at TPAC, but happy for conversation to start at TPAC and then come in with first call after TPAC.
15:44:54 <TimCole> azaroth: suggested a specific slot for this discussion.
15:45:00 <azaroth> q?
15:45:46 <TimCole> azaroth: one more topic -- priroritization for notification
15:46:08 <TimCole> ... should we work on search or notification first? will social deal with this well enough for us?
15:46:18 <shepazu> q+
15:46:24 <azaroth> ack shepazu
15:46:45 <TimCole> ... notification, for example, is about the publisher of a target gets notified that an annotation has been made
15:47:29 <TimCole> shepazu: are we encompassing notifications of annotations of annotations, they might have different mechanisms for subscriptions (for example)
15:47:49 <TimCole> ... seems like there are a whole bunch of potential channels for notification, etc.
15:47:58 <azaroth> use cases ++ :)
15:48:05 <bigbluehat> yeah...those
15:48:08 <TimCole> ... we should start by spelling out what we mean by notification
15:48:19 <TimCole> azaroth: having use cases should be one of the first steps
15:48:45 <TimCole> ... this is definitely something to discuss when we have social WG members in the room
15:49:03 <TimCole> ... distinguishing between annotation requriements and social requirements.
15:49:30 <TimCole> ... propose to put notificaiton in same slot as social, search right after lunch, model after the break...
15:50:17 <TimCole> ivan: comment - there are 2 issues with social. 1) notification, 2) design choices that each of the groups have made and there is feeling that these decisions should align
15:50:29 <TimCole> ... not sure if we'll have right people there
15:51:04 <TimCole> azaroth: James Snell would best on this topic, but he won't be there.  We can still bring the issue up and then move to email.
15:51:13 <azaroth> q?
15:51:42 <TimCole> good, scribe has to leave in 4 minutes
15:52:05 <TimCole> azaroth: Reminder no call next week, may be a call in 2 weeks
15:52:18 <TimCole> shepazu: calling into TPAC?
15:53:39 <TimCole> shepazu: no infrastrucutre in place, but we could set up skype or some other ad hoc method
15:54:11 <TimCole> ivan: and a WebEx room is available if we need it (assuming someone at TPAC has a computer with WebEx).
15:54:24 <TimCole> adjourned
15:54:58 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-annotation-minutes.html ivan
15:55:25 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
15:55:25 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:55:25 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole, Kyrce_Swenson, Ivan, Jacob_Jett, Chris_Birk, shepazu, Benjamin_Young, Takeshi_Kanai, davis_salisbury
15:55:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:55:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/21-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
15:55:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:55:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items