17:02:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
17:02:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-social-irc
17:02:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:02:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:02:13 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
17:02:14 <aaronpk> present+ aaronpk
17:02:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:02:14 <trackbot> Date: 20 October 2015
17:02:14 <cwebber2> present+ cwebber
17:02:16 <Arnaud> present+ Arnaud
17:02:19 <elf-pavlik> present+ elf-pavlik
17:02:23 <tantek> present+ tantek
17:02:25 <sandro> present+ sandro
17:02:32 <ben_thatmustbeme> present+ ben_thatmustbeme
17:02:45 <elf-pavlik> i can scribe
17:02:48 <aaronpk> i can scribe
17:02:50 <jasnell> present+ jasnell
17:02:51 <rhiaro_> present+ rhiaro
17:02:52 <csarven> present+ csarven
17:03:19 <csarven> elf-pavlik That shouldn't be a problem.
17:03:43 <aaronpk> scribenick: aaronpk
17:03:45 <tantek> scribe: aaronpk
17:03:57 <aaronpk> TOPIC admin
17:04:02 <tantek> zakim, who is here?
17:04:02 <Zakim> Present: Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika,
17:04:06 <Zakim> ... wseltzer, akuckartz
17:04:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, csarven, melvster, shepazu, tantek, jasnell, bblfish, elf-pavlik, asbjornu, Arnaud, rhiaro_, kevinmarks, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme, rrika, wilkie, bret,
17:04:06 <Zakim> ... aaronpk, tommorris_, ElijahLynn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, Zakim, dwhly, pdurbin, rhiaro, slvrbckt, tsyesika, raucao, sandro, trackbot, wseltzer_transit
17:04:14 <aaronpk> tantek: participation is limited to members, looks good.
17:04:17 <aaronpk> regrets from evan
17:04:24 <aaronpk> TOPIC: approval of minutes from last week
17:04:30 <tsyesika> present+ tsyesika
17:04:32 <rhiaro_> I tweaked the minutes a bit
17:04:34 <aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-10-13-minutes
17:04:38 <rhiaro_> last week, right after the call
17:04:43 <elf-pavlik> +1
17:04:50 <cwebber2> +1
17:05:05 <tsyesika> +1
17:05:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:05:11 <rhiaro_> +1
17:05:14 <aaronpk> tantek: no edits on the wiki history, but amy says she edited the minutes from last week
17:05:21 <aaronpk> ... no objectiions, lots of +1s,
17:05:25 <aaronpk> RESOLVED minutes approved
17:05:31 <aaronpk> TOPIC: face to face meeting
17:05:43 <tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-12-01
17:05:48 <wilkie> present+ wilkie
17:05:51 <aaronpk> tantek: 9 people registered right now, i'd prefer if we could get everyone in the group especially everyone on the telcon to add their names
17:06:10 <aaronpk> ... either confirm, add regrets, or if you think you might be able to attend, add yourself still and add a caveat note
17:06:27 <aaronpk> ... that lets the organizer know that's a possibility, but if you might be able to attend please add anote
17:06:39 <aaronpk> ... if you're for sure not able to attend, add yourself to remote if possible, or add yourself to regrets
17:06:53 <aaronpk> TOPIC: next week telcon
17:07:03 <aaronpk> tantek: cancelling next week's telcon since it's during TPAC
17:07:09 <aaronpk> ... the next telcon will be Nov 3rd
17:07:17 <aaronpk> ... chair will be Arnaud
17:07:25 <aaronpk> Arnaud: i can do that
17:07:27 <aaronpk> tantek: great okay
17:07:35 <kevinmarks> present+ kevinmarks
17:07:41 <aaronpk> TOPIC: WebEx vs Mumble
17:07:48 <aaronpk> tantek: sandro has an update
17:08:14 <aaronpk> sandro: we ended things last week was several people pointed out we have a mandate to make our telcon system inclusive, which requires plain telephone dialin
17:08:26 <aaronpk> ... so mumble is off the table, but if people want something other than webex, suggest alternatives
17:08:32 <cwebber2> sandro: does that include dial-in internationally? :)
17:08:39 <aaronpk> ... but it has to have at least the same functionlity, at least dial-in
17:08:41 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #social
17:08:54 <tsyesika> cwebber2++
17:08:56 <aaronpk> ... we can close this for now, but someone can prototype with others in the group if they want
17:09:06 <aaronpk> tantek: for now, this issue is closed since Mumble doesn't have POTS support
17:09:11 <cwebber2> because international ability to dial in also seems a broadly accessible issue to me
17:09:15 <aaronpk> ... if there is a counterproposal then we're open to hearing that
17:09:29 <tantek> q?
17:09:37 <aaronpk> TOPIC: Agenda format
17:09:39 <sandro> cwebber2, *free* dialin isn't a requreiment, but it sure would be nice.
17:09:56 <aaronpk> tantek: we had a clustered format of the agenda by topic
17:10:13 <aaronpk> .. there wa sa proposal to switch it to a flat FIFO agenda so that when items are added we get to everything rather than potentially getting stuck on the first cluster
17:10:13 <hhalpin> However, I agree with cwebber2 that we should have free dial-in and dial-in that is compatible with open-source/free software.
17:10:25 <aaronpk> .. .there was an objection from evan, but then they talked, and now evan is not objecting
17:10:31 <tsyesika> sandro: it's not so much that there is a cost to international dialing it's just that the cost is prohibitive
17:10:33 <hhalpin> This is simply a failure on W3C's part at this point, hopefully one we can address. I'll bring it up at our next meeting.
17:10:34 <aaronpk> ... the chairs have talked abd we've agreed to switch to a flat FIFO format
17:10:59 <hhalpin> Not having free calling, particularly given the widespread use of VoIP, is ultimately IMHO discriminatory
17:11:08 <aaronpk> ... if there are any objections let us know, we'll be happty to listen to questions/issues
17:11:23 <tsyesika> hhalpin: thanks
17:11:25 <hhalpin> biasing meetings towards those with the income to dial-in. If someone is not technical enough to figure out VoIP, it begs the question of what htey are doing in a technical standardization committee.
17:11:27 <aaronpk> Arnaud: it does mean if you want to add somethign to the agenda, you must always add your things to the bottom of the list
17:12:04 <aaronpk> tantek: if you have a speicifc action item that you want people to look at or are stuck on, you can add it to the agenda explicitly
17:12:11 <hhalpin> Thus, I fully support moving the meeting to Mumble if possible, and am happy to revisit this issue now that Ann (who previously had issues with this) is not in the WG.
17:12:23 <hhalpin> Many open-source projects use Mumble for telecons and it works well for them.
17:12:45 <aaronpk> tantek: looks like there's a side conversation continuing
17:12:52 <aaronpk> ... i'm going to point out there's a free option for dialing in which I am using
17:13:00 <aaronpk> ... which is the google hangouts application
17:13:14 <aaronpk> ... it does allow free POTS phone calls to US phone numbers no matter where you are in the world
17:13:16 <cwebber2> tantek: I know tsyesika and rhiaro have been using that and it has been difficult for them
17:13:29 <aaronpk> ... i've used this in manyu locations, so i don't actualy think there is a point about cost for the phone call
17:13:36 <aaronpk> ... there is a free solution to making phone calls
17:13:45 <aaronpk> ... and it's a lot easier than setting up a VOIP solution
17:14:18 <aaronpk> TOPIC: Improvements in compatibility of IANA link relations registry with JSON-LD
17:14:31 <aaronpk> tantek: while it's an interesting issue to discuss, i don't think it's something relevant or blocking AS2
17:14:36 <aaronpk> ... elf is this somethign that really needs to be discussed?
17:14:40 <aaronpk> elf-pavlik: i wanted to share a quick update
17:15:00 <aaronpk> ... AS vocab defines properties like previous last next, thanks to this progress, you'll be able to reuse these more easily
17:15:10 <aaronpk> ... we can reuse these from well defined link relations instead of redefining them
17:15:26 <aaronpk> tantek: if there are specific issues on AS use of vocab they should be filed as issues on github against each vocab item
17:15:33 <tilgovi> tilgovi has joined #social
17:15:55 <aaronpk> ... encouraging reuse tends to be good practice, but youcan capture this with specific issues and exampels on the spec
17:17:00 <tantek> q?
17:17:13 <aaronpk> TOPIC AS2 Hackathon
17:17:30 <aaronpk> tantek: Now that we have the beginnings of a test suite, it would be great to get some Free and Open Source Software library implementations in major Web programming languages (Ruby, PHP, Python, JavaScript, Java, Go, Objective C). A weekend hackathon ahead of our next F2F would be great. Doodle poll here: http://doodle.com/poll/sht6vdmr73v2arfd
17:17:38 <cwebber2> wow nice job
17:17:45 <cwebber2> aaronpk: you're so on top of things!
17:17:48 <wilkie> I wanted to do that anyway!!
17:18:03 <aaronpk> tantek: i believe the only action being requested here interest you, answer the doodle poll
17:18:15 <aaronpk> ... i will also point out there' sbeen an indiewebcamp hack day scheduled for the day after the F2F on Dec 3rd
17:18:37 <aaronpk> ... also hosted at Mozilla, so if you want to extend your stay to hack on AS2 or other socialweb technology for your personal website, you're welcome to join the indiewebcamp hack day
17:18:45 <ben_thatmustbeme> There is an IWC at MIT on Nov 7/8th as well
17:19:11 <tantek> q?
17:19:19 <ben_thatmustbeme> q+
17:19:19 <rhiaro_> https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/MIT
17:19:29 <tantek> https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/SF
17:19:51 <aaronpk> tantek: participation is free, just show up. not just a WG event, it's open to anyone who wants to hack on their personal sites
17:20:03 <aaronpk> ... i believ the intent of the doodle poll is to make it open to anyone, not jsut WG members
17:20:04 <tantek> q?
17:20:09 <tantek> ack ben_thatmustbeme
17:20:21 <aaronpk> ben_thatmustbeme: i wanted to mention there's an indiewebcamp at MIT on Nov 7/8, linked in the chat
17:20:41 <tantek> q?
17:20:42 <aaronpk> tantek: looks like we have a pretty busy couple months coming up, good news
17:20:47 <aaronpk> TOPIC: Social API
17:20:54 <aaronpk> update and next steps
17:21:02 <rhiaro_> http://rhiaro.github.io/Social-APIs-Brainstorming/socialapi
17:21:10 <aaronpk> rhiaro: as promised, i put togheter a document for a skeleton of what the social api could look like
17:21:25 <aaronpk> ... kind of the shape of the socail api. the pieces of how I see the API such that tey're interoperable but not dependent on each other
17:21:37 <aaronpk> ... your'e able to implement subsections but not necessarily all of them
17:21:50 <aaronpk> ... allows apps to work together rather than a single app the does everything
17:22:17 <aaronpk> ... it's obviousluy not impelmentable in its current form, and some sections have conflicting options, so i'm hoping the group can help work through this to resolve
17:22:24 <aaronpk> ... my plan is to work through and implement each part to refine it
17:22:33 <aaronpk> ... based on what i'm building and the other specs we've considered
17:22:36 <wilkie> great work
17:22:38 <aaronpk> ... (activitypump, indieweb ones, and solid)
17:22:43 <cwebber2> rhiaro++
17:22:50 <aaronpk> ... i might end up makign specific proposals based on what i'm building
17:22:53 <cwebber2> what wilkie said
17:23:06 <aaronpk> ... i'm open to changing the structure , it's possible i've mised some stuff others think its important
17:23:13 <aaronpk> ... so i'd love for that to be fixed
17:23:17 <wilkie> this gives a great roadmap for implementations
17:23:27 <aaronpk> ... the first section is reading, social data exposed on the web ,doesn't matter how it got there
17:23:34 <aaronpk> ... you find some, here's what to expect and how to get it
17:23:36 <wilkie> that are still flexible about Accept
17:23:43 <aaronpk> ... the creating/updating/deleting shoudl be self explanatory
17:23:55 <aaronpk> ... discovery is the idea that you cn find content from a starting point, probably a user profile
17:24:20 <aaronpk> ... specifically that someone can publish multiple feeds of content, sorted to whatever criteria you'd like, and an a[plication like a reader needs a way to find all the content the user has published
17:24:32 <ShaneHudson> ShaneHudson has joined #social
17:24:37 <aaronpk> ... subscribing, specifically when your client is asking to be notified of updates, either to a single piece of content or a feed
17:24:54 <aaronpk> ... this is similar to mentions, which is when you're pushed a notification but didnt' necessraily ask for it
17:25:06 <aaronpk> ... subscribing and mentions are kind of mixed together in ActiivtyPump but are separate in indieweb protocols
17:25:12 <aaronpk> ... i found it useful to think of kthem separately
17:25:32 <aaronpk> ... the final section is profiles, auth is out of scope, identity is complicated and has a lot of baggage, but we basically need some document to describe the author of a document
17:25:45 <aaronpk> ... peopel can have multiple profiles, we don't need to constrain what goes into the profiles (orgs or bots are fine)
17:25:47 <ShaneHudson> Apologies I can't be on the call today, but just wanted to mention I'm up for the AS hackathon it is a good idea. Have put dates I can do on the doodle.
17:26:09 <aaronpk> ... my instinct is to focus on this from the perspective of content delivery (social content)
17:26:21 <aaronpk> ... specifically with relationships between profiles, it's easy to get bogged down by categorizing friends
17:26:28 <aaronpk> .. but what really matters is what content is going to flow from user to users
17:26:42 <aaronpk> ... iv'e tried to capture this from a practical point of view without getting too concerned about identity
17:26:42 <elf-pavlik> q+ to ask about groups
17:26:49 <cwebber2> q+
17:27:04 <cwebber2> aaronpk++
17:27:06 <ben_thatmustbeme> aaronpk++
17:27:07 <aaronpk> tantek: i have adocument level question rather than a content question
17:27:13 <aaronpk> ... what would it take to turn this into an editors draft
17:27:40 <aaronpk> rhiaro: i was going to end the doc with a question, if this is an acceptable way forwrads, i could add this to the w3c github and respec it and call it an editor's draft and go from there
17:27:50 <aaronpk> ... it just has some gaps and things that need to be filled but is a starting point
17:27:52 <tantek> q?
17:27:52 <sandro> gaps are business-as-usual for editors drafts.   :-)
17:28:04 <aaronpk> tantek: certainly editor's drafts are expected fto have issues and gaps
17:28:09 <tantek> ack elf-pavlik
17:28:09 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask about groups
17:28:24 <aaronpk> elf-pavlik: really amazing work amy. my question goes to profile and relationships
17:28:35 <hhalpin> q?
17:28:36 <aaronpk> ... i remember a few years ago, were missing groups
17:28:37 <hhalpin> q+
17:28:42 <aaronpk> ... do you see a place for groups in the social api?
17:28:48 <aaronpk> ... and the access control aspects
17:28:52 <Arnaud> anyone pushing back would have the burden of coming up with a counter proposal :)
17:28:56 <wilkie> I agree, groups are important
17:29:09 <aaronpk> rhiaro: i completely forgot about that. off the top of my head, since you ca have collections of contents you could have collections of profiles which you could use for access control
17:29:16 <aaronpk> ... definitely something to think about
17:29:21 <tantek> q?
17:29:22 <wilkie> this is a FANTASTIC start though
17:29:24 <tantek> ack cwebber2
17:29:55 <aaronpk> cwebber2: great work. i think this doucment will be awesome as is, you mentioned something offline, interest in doing this for activitypump
17:30:03 <aaronpk> ... i wonder if other implementers will be interested as well
17:30:11 <aaronpk> ... where you mentioned restructuring the activtypump document in this form
17:30:16 <aaronpk> ... are others interested in this?
17:30:50 <aaronpk> rhiaro: yeah the other thing i'm doing, i came up with this structure and I am rewriting the activitypump API in this structure, leaving the content but just changing the structure
17:30:54 <aaronpk> ... iw ill be doing the same for solid
17:31:11 <aaronpk> .. and then the different indieweb specs are arleady in these pieces so they just need to line up in this order
17:31:25 <aaronpk> ... there are probably some parts that look the same when you untangle them, and then they can be put in the social API
17:31:42 <cwebber2> great rhiaro, awesome work!
17:31:43 <aaronpk> ... i'm going to do it anyway but if anyone wants to help that's good too
17:31:49 <tantek> q?
17:31:53 <cwebber2> q-
17:31:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> rhiaro++
17:31:53 <tantek> ack cwebber2
17:31:57 <kevinmarks> rhiaro++
17:31:59 <tantek> ack cwebber
17:32:03 <tantek> ack hhalpin
17:32:04 <aaronpk> hhalpin: it's a good beginning, i had two scoping questions
17:32:12 <aaronpk> ... i think we'll need some sort of minimal profile social graph annotation
17:32:24 <aaronpk> ... but i don't want this document to try to define that
17:32:30 <aaronpk> ... the most variance is in the subscription protocols
17:32:45 <aaronpk> ... it seems like the other thing is missing is there are two different design patterns in discovery
17:32:52 <aaronpk> ... one is looking at link headers, whcih some developers don't know about
17:32:58 <aaronpk> ... many people use acitivtypump without looking at link headers
17:33:05 <wilkie> that's so true and so baffling
17:33:08 <aaronpk> ... most social networks don't use link headers
17:33:14 <aaronpk> ... maybe we should defined some default URL endpoints in the discovery
17:33:22 <aaronpk> ... look at some of the work done around webfinger and host-meta
17:33:23 <cwebber2> and also note
17:33:34 <aaronpk> ... i'm happy to share those over email
17:33:37 <kevinmarks> webfinger is mostly dead isn't it?
17:33:38 <melvster> webfinger--
17:33:38 <cwebber2> that we have a lot freedom in ActivityPump to adjust the way discovery is done
17:33:48 <aaronpk> rhiaro: i agree about not defining social relationship at the api level
17:33:50 <hhalpin> I'm going to note that vocabularies are a source of endless bike-shedding, let's not try to define in an API
17:33:55 <cwebber2> the stuff in there right now was rushed in for the paris F2F
17:34:04 <tantek> q?
17:34:05 <aaronpk> tantek: i'm going to interject based on harry's comment
17:34:11 <hhalpin> Discovery is currently only done with Link Headers, but some folks don't use those or know about those.
17:34:26 <aaronpk> ... regarding the suggestion to look at webfinger/host-meta, is anyone here actually implementing those in their social web technologies or solutions?
17:34:33 <aaronpk> ... i'm askign implementers that are on the call
17:34:34 <wilkie> negotiating has always been weird where you look for link headers, look for <link>, look for html hints somewhere else... link headers are priority though
17:34:35 <kevinmarks> gogole dropped webfinger support https://client.webfinger.net/lookup?resource=kevinmarks%40gmail.com
17:34:35 <tsyesika> yes, mediagoblin uses it
17:34:46 <cwebber2> q+
17:34:47 <aaronpk> hhalpin: most of the large implementers who are not on the call tend to use webfinger
17:35:03 <aaronpk> ... most platforms don't use link headers, thye just use URL patterns that are documented
17:35:14 <tsyesika> I have no mic, but mediagoblin dos
17:35:16 <tsyesika> *does
17:35:27 <hhalpin> It might be useful to look at URL patterns default and that most major sites (for example, anyone that supports OpenID) uses WebFinger.
17:35:30 <aaronpk> tantek: the reason i'm bringin this up is we've had no active participiation from implementers using these techniques, so i'm not in favor of trying to guess their needs and desires
17:35:31 <ben_thatmustbeme> we had agreed on follow your nose for endpoints a F2F Cambridge
17:35:33 <hhalpin> So we should at least look at this.
17:35:39 <aaronpk> ... iwould prefer fewer things that are based on actual participants instead
17:35:55 <aaronpk> ... there are communities here, indieweb and solid, who are actively using link headers and relations and actively not using webfingers and host-meta
17:36:01 <melvster> ben_thatmustbeme++
17:36:03 <cwebber2> o/
17:36:04 <elf-pavlik> follow your nose by including links in payload https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2015Oct/0057.html
17:36:04 <aaronpk> ... the current deployment and active work is to not use webfinger
17:36:16 <tantek> q?
17:36:21 <tantek> ack cwebber
17:36:35 <hhalpin> Again, the real focus for most people are using URL patterns
17:36:35 <aaronpk> cwebber2: both mediagoblin and pump.io currently use webfinger
17:36:43 <aaronpk> ... and diaspora
17:36:47 <hhalpin> Anyways, people should look at it: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7033
17:36:50 <aaronpk> ... i'm not saying i think it's the best option, but there is active federation using it
17:36:52 <wilkie> yep, anything that stemmed from ostatus will be using it
17:36:57 <wilkie> my implementations also do
17:37:00 <kevinmarks> yahoo has also dropped webfinger
17:37:08 <aaronpk> tantek: as an implementer, what's your opinion, si that worth mentioning in the social API?
17:37:12 <hhalpin> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6415 - Host-meta
17:37:15 <kevinmarks> so how are you looking up things?
17:37:21 <ben_thatmustbeme> q+
17:37:22 <cwebber2> q+
17:37:22 <kevinmarks> q+
17:37:27 <aaronpk> ... i'm seeing side comments in IRC, and i would request those queue up to make youre points
17:37:37 <aaronpk> ... is webfinger a backcompat thing?
17:37:47 <aaronpk> cwebber2: i don't have the biggest strongest opinion on this, but it's the way things are going
17:37:54 <aaronpk> ... i know evan has expressed previous inteterest in webfinger
17:38:12 <tantek> q?
17:38:16 <aaronpk> ... but the activitypump we submitted for the f2f had a rough thing where we pulled jsonld out of the page, but i dont tihnk that's the best way forward
17:38:29 <aaronpk> ... it will at least need to be supported for backcompat, but i can't speak for evan
17:38:30 <tantek> q?
17:38:34 <tantek> ack ben_thatmustbeme
17:38:35 <tsyesika> cwebber++
17:38:36 <cwebber2> q-
17:38:36 <aaronpk> tantek: thanks i appreciate that
17:38:38 <hhalpin> We saw in the wild *mild* uptake of WebFinger and Host-meta, I agree it may not be the best way forward, but *only* Link Headers ignores the facts that many developers do not know what Link headers are and that design pattern is not employed by major social networks.
17:38:40 <melvster> FYI: webfinger JSON is not compatible with the JSON proposed in this group
17:38:56 <cwebber2> that's true
17:38:59 <cwebber2> we did say that
17:39:00 <aaronpk> ben_thatmustbeme: we did talk about this at f2f in cambridge and we agreed and pretty sure we had a resolution we would prefer a follow-your-nose method than a random URL
17:39:02 <hhalpin> q+
17:39:03 <aaronpk> tantek: that's true
17:39:12 <aaronpk> ... that was this past march
17:39:13 <cwebber2> and that's why the paris f2f one had an alternate method
17:39:15 <cwebber2> that was FYN'ish
17:39:20 <cwebber2> though not a permanent one
17:39:31 <aaronpk> ... we did resolve the group would use follow-your-nose method, to avoid well-known path methods
17:39:45 <aaronpk> ... so i suppose that leaves us with, if there is new information since the meeting we can reopen the issue
17:39:48 <cwebber2> tantek: anwyay, I think tsyesika and I are flexible on this, I think we'd be happy to work with the group
17:39:58 <sandro> q?
17:40:01 <cwebber2> tantek: we might want in activitypump to provide a backwards compatible note
17:40:01 <tantek> q?
17:40:04 <tantek> ack kevinmarks
17:40:17 <aaronpk> kevinmarks: webfinger has been largely abandoned as far as i can tell
17:40:27 <aaronpk> ... the model that everything starts from eamil address was flaky to begin with
17:40:32 <aaronpk> ... google and yahoo both dropped it already
17:40:35 <melvster> kevinmarks++
17:40:40 <aaronpk> tantek: do you have a citation for that?
17:40:41 <cwebber2> q+
17:41:00 <aaronpk> kevinmarks: i used the webfinger.net client to look up my gmail and yahoo addresses and neither of them worked
17:41:14 <cwebber2> q-
17:41:21 <aaronpk> tantek: so there's no official announcement, but based on the tests you're seeing the support gone
17:41:25 <wilkie> I'm not sure why google or yahoo would want to use webfinger haha
17:41:27 <tantek> q?
17:41:32 <tantek> ack hhalpin
17:41:50 <aaronpk> hhalpin: i'm not saying that webfinger or host-meta is the best approach, but I do think they were added to the OpenID connect spec
17:42:02 <kevinmarks> they're well-known urls
17:42:04 <aaronpk> .. that being said, tho we should encourage HTTP link headers, lots of implementers don't know what link headers are
17:42:19 <aaronpk> ... some of the main questions implementers had was where shoudl i put my endpoints, and how do i find others' endpoints
17:42:20 <kevinmarks> we should support <a> as well as <link>
17:42:21 <elf-pavlik> q+ to mention including links in body of response
17:42:30 <aaronpk> ... typically there is some documentation like twitter which shows the endpoints
17:42:44 <aaronpk> ... it may be useful to say if you're adding this to yoursite, here are some default patterns you can follow
17:42:53 <cwebber2>  q+
17:42:55 <aaronpk> ... that follows more clearly what implementers are used to
17:43:09 <kevinmarks> wordpress has link headers
17:43:28 <kevinmarks> so ~25% of the web
17:43:31 <aaronpk> tantek: that's an interesting assertion, but i'm not sure without some evidence of where those endpoints are we can come to a conclusion
17:43:35 <hhalpin> So, does Twitter, Facebook, or anyone else use Link Headers?
17:43:46 <hhalpin> I think Evan began this research a while back.
17:43:47 <tantek> q?
17:43:52 <hhalpin> So we already have lots of data.
17:44:08 <kevinmarks> silo.pub has instructions for adding link headers to other silos
17:44:09 <aaronpk> tantek: counterpoint i'll provide is there are many more sites and URLs that have link headers and link rel discovery of rss/atom feeds
17:44:25 <aaronpk> ... iw ould assert the number of sites that support that greatly outnumber all proprietary social netweork APIs combined
17:44:27 <hhalpin> I think Link Headers are not a bad way to go and should be specified, but having some "optional" advised default end-points will help deployment.
17:44:40 <aaronpk> ... so there are many publishesr and consumers that use feed discovery from home pages
17:44:46 <tantek> q?
17:44:49 <tantek> ack elf-pavlik
17:44:49 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention including links in body of response
17:44:50 <aaronpk> ... i'm presenting that to counter that developres don't know what to do with link relations
17:44:51 <hhalpin> I think RSS/Atom feeds are slowly on their way out, sadly :(
17:44:59 <elf-pavlik> http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2015/10/06/turtles-all-the-way-down/
17:45:01 <wilkie> just do what everybody else does. do link headers, and fall back to link tags, etc.
17:45:07 <kevinmarks> opensocial/as1 defined api paths relative to an endpoint
17:45:11 <tantek> they (RSS, Atom) still greatly outnumber proprietary APIs
17:45:15 <hhalpin> I'm just noticing that the main way discovery is usually done is by going for a URL
17:45:27 <tantek> hhalpin, not for feeds
17:45:32 <aaronpk> elf-pavlik: it seems like activitystreams and others put links in the body of responses
17:45:36 <tantek> that's still done by follow-your-nose via link relations
17:45:41 <hhalpin> So losing that pattern and saying "look at link headers" seems rather odd if we want deployment.
17:45:42 <aaronpk> ... html links in the indieweb community also put links in the body
17:45:56 <aaronpk> ... it's not just link headers, we can use the payload in the body, so there are other options
17:46:01 <tantek> q?
17:46:07 <tantek> ack cwebber
17:46:15 <hhalpin> For internationalization and adoption, I agree Link headers are a good thing, but I think 99% of people will be expecting URL endpoints that are defined.
17:46:17 <aaronpk> sandro: can we do quick point of order of where we are on the agenda?
17:46:24 <cwebber2> I'm happy to dequeue
17:46:28 <rhiaro_> q+ to make proposal about API
17:46:28 <cwebber2> q-
17:46:33 <tantek> q?
17:46:40 <tantek> ack rhiaro
17:46:40 <Zakim> rhiaro_, you wanted to make proposal about API
17:46:40 <rhiaro_> PROPOSAL: accept this basic structure of a Social API document and continue development on w3c-social github. Have an implementable draft ready by the f2f.
17:46:44 <aaronpk> rhiaro: i wanted to end this with a proposal
17:46:50 <cwebber2> I'll say it on IRC instead
17:46:51 <elf-pavlik> +1
17:47:07 <aaronpk> tantek: sounds like you're proposing it as an editor's draft
17:47:15 <aaronpk> rhiaro: if that's what it sounds like sure, i'm not sure what the full process is
17:47:34 <aaronpk> tantek: i'm going to reword your proosal slightly
17:47:40 <kevinmarks> hhalpin: Iink headers just point to the defined api endpoints. I don't see how link headers are bad
17:47:51 <tantek> PROPOSAL: accept this basic structure of a Social API document as an editor's draft for the WG and continue development on w3c-social github.
17:47:55 <elf-pavlik> +1
17:47:57 <cwebber2> hhalpin: I agree with you on the general "what developers can easily pick up and go with with the tooling they have", but I think that looking at a spec and hearing "oh I can get it from here"... most devs have the tools in a django/rails/node blah blah type environment to where webfinger and link relations and etc are about equal complexity
17:48:06 <sandro> +1
17:48:08 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:48:11 <tantek> +1
17:48:12 <cwebber2> +1
17:48:14 <rhiaro_> +1
17:48:16 <aaronpk> tantek: the progress of the draft is up to you, which is why i dropped "implementable"
17:48:18 <aaronpk> +1
17:48:32 <hhalpin> +1
17:48:32 <cwebber2> it also seems like an easy one for the group to not disagree too much over :)
17:48:36 <aaronpk> tantek: i see a bunch of +1s
17:48:36 <kevinmarks> +1
17:48:41 <wilkie> +1
17:48:45 <cwebber2> so I'm happy to say "webfinger is backwards compatibility"
17:48:50 <cwebber2> and move on
17:49:03 <aaronpk> sandro: might be nice to aim for getting a first public WD by the f2f
17:49:19 <tantek> RESOLVED: accept this basic structure of a Social API document as an editor's draft for the WG and continue development on w3c-social github.
17:49:21 <aaronpk> tantek: i'm not seeing any objections at al, so i'll declare it as resolved
17:49:25 <aaronpk> rhiaro_++
17:49:33 <elf-pavlik> rhiaro++
17:49:39 <cwebber2> rhiaro++
17:49:44 <sandro> rhiaro++
17:50:07 <aaronpk> rhiaro: i don't know what state it has to be in for it to be a working draft but as long as someone can clear that up for me that's okay
17:50:15 <aaronpk> sandro: there's some mechanical stuff harry and i can help with
17:50:25 <hhalpin> Note that FPWD and Editor's drafts don't need WG consensus
17:50:26 <aaronpk> ... from a consensus point of view it's either agreed on or noted that it's not agreed on
17:50:35 <aaronpk> rhiaro: okay that sounds doable
17:50:37 <hhalpin> Otherwise, there would likely never be a published FPWD :)
17:50:50 <tantek> q?
17:50:50 <aaronpk> tantek: in general working draft does not require all the contents to have consensus, that's how we broaden the discussion
17:50:55 <aaronpk> TOPIC: TPAC
17:51:08 <hhalpin> There was a request from Annotations for Social members at TPAC to attend as well
17:51:08 <aaronpk> tantek: "Those attending TPAC will hold a Social Web breakout session on the plenary day. Please suggest agenda topics."
17:51:10 <hhalpin> q+
17:51:43 <aaronpk> rhiaro: on wednesday of next week during tpac, there's breakout sessions, and tantek Arnaud and me will be there, there will be a social web session 1 hr
17:51:53 <aaronpk> ... if anyone wants to bring something up for the session add it to the wiki pag
17:51:53 <tantek> ack hhalpin
17:52:11 <aaronpk> hhalpin: there was also a request, the annotations WG is meeting and they might have some dependencies on this group
17:52:18 <aaronpk> .. .they invited this group to their meeting
17:53:06 <aaronpk> TOPIC AS 2 modularity
17:53:20 <aaronpk> tantek: last week there was a straw poll of whether we should consider AS to be a requirement
17:53:30 <aaronpk> ... there was some active resistance and opposition
17:53:37 <aaronpk> .. the chairs discussed what is a good way forward
17:53:43 <aaronpk> ... i believe sandro has a good summary to present
17:54:13 <aaronpk> sandro: HTML clearly uses and carries and works with Javascript and CSS, but it does not have any hard dependency on them
17:54:30 <cwebber2> q+
17:54:33 <aaronpk> ... it's possible to use different stylesheets, but everyone in the industry knows everyone uses javascript/css
17:54:37 <tantek> q+
17:54:51 <aaronpk> ... i was hoping we could in theory have the API be separate from the social media syntax
17:55:03 <aaronpk> .. .that could be a good design pattern, even if we all know that what we do most of the time is use AS2
17:55:04 <elf-pavlik> q+ re AS2.0 trying to address API concerns
17:55:26 <aaronpk> ... chris said it seems like a failure if we don't tie the two together. i'm saying it doesn't have to be a failure, see HTML
17:55:28 <tantek> ack cwebber
17:55:29 <cwebber2> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/
17:55:41 <aaronpk> cwebber2: HTML does not link to CSS, but CSS does link to HTML everywhere
17:55:53 <aaronpk> ... so it's true that HTML is a foundation on which CSS sits, but CSS is dependent on HTML
17:55:57 <csarven> SVG?
17:56:00 <aaronpk> ... so i'm not totally sure i buy this analogy
17:56:05 <tantek> q?
17:56:34 <aaronpk> tantek: i'll quickly give a counterpoint. in CSS2 it was explicitly made more modular than CSS1, CSS2 made it clear that it works on any document language, not just HTML
17:56:45 <hhalpin> q+
17:56:49 <aaronpk> ... acknowledged that tying CSS1 to HTML was a mistake
17:56:55 <aaronpk> ... we can certainly learn from that
17:57:08 <aaronpk> ... csarven mentioned SVG. SVG was able to reuse aspects of CSS without CSS having to change
17:57:14 <aaronpk> ... that was a good design mechanism
17:57:22 <aaronpk> .. .the other explicit point i wanted to add to sandro's analogy
17:57:37 <aaronpk> ... in scripting, there were multiple alternatives you could use in HTML. all those alternatives were devleoped outside w3c
17:57:46 <cwebber2> tantek: ok, point taken re: css 2
17:57:53 <aaronpk> ... our modularity is not just restricted to w3c's work, but can and should extend to allowing development outside our work
17:58:07 <aaronpk> ... the other example of styling languages. there were multiple alternatives pursued inside w3c
17:58:15 <aaronpk> .. when we got to XML, it could be styled with CSS or XMLFO
17:58:18 <hhalpin> Although XSL-FO seems not to have worked out...
17:58:30 <aaronpk> ... my experience is having those two ended up benefiting both
17:58:46 <hhalpin> That being said, I've used XSL-FO for styling XML produced by wikis into PDFs for a textbook, it's quite fun in a very XML-centric way.
17:58:48 <aaronpk> ... eventually yes we have a dominant styling and scripting language, but that took years to happen, and the existence of alternatives benefitted both
17:59:00 <tantek> q?
17:59:03 <aaronpk> ... the modular approach will benefit all our technologies the most
17:59:09 <tantek> ack tant
17:59:12 <tantek> ack tantek
17:59:20 <aaronpk> ... so to those who were -1 to requiring AS2 would want to present an alternative
17:59:26 <ben_thatmustbeme> another reason to keep Social API and Federation API seperate
17:59:27 <aaronpk> ...clearly there are folks who are unhappy with AS2
17:59:42 <aaronpk> ... one way to continue AS2 is for those who were -1 to give a counter proposal
17:59:57 <tantek> q?
17:59:57 <aaronpk> ... if you have a way to define what you would like constructively instead then we can design the protocols so they are moduled
17:59:59 <tantek> ack elf-pavlik
17:59:59 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss AS2.0 trying to address API concerns
18:00:27 <aaronpk> elf-pavlik: i already mentioned that AS is trying to address API concerns, paging and media types, i plan to create an issue listing all the API concerns that AS has to address
18:00:39 <aaronpk> ... so we can focus ont he data
18:00:41 <ben_thatmustbeme> elf-pavlik++
18:00:42 <aaronpk> tantek: that sounds great
18:00:43 <tantek> q?
18:00:47 <tantek> ack hhalpin
18:01:22 <aaronpk> hhalpin: i think the concern is if we don't have a SHOULD for some json format, multiple sides will use the aPI and won't interoperate
18:01:39 <kevinmarks> why does harry think microformats are anti-json?
18:01:43 <aaronpk> ... we'l end up with lack of interoperability. rather than consider this a format war, we should try to accept one JSON based format
18:01:54 <cwebber2> kevinmarks: not that it's anti-json but that it won't be the same json maybe?
18:02:05 <cwebber2> clearly aaronpk is working on a json format and that's great
18:02:10 <hhalpin> It's not, that's why I'm confused re resistance to JSON formats since mf2
18:02:15 <aaronpk> tantek: i'm going to reiterate what sandro said. HTML did not have a SHOULD MUST or MAY for javascript or CSS, and CSS says "if you're using HTML here's what to do"
18:02:31 <aaronpk> ... not only should we not say MUST, we should not say SHOULD either
18:02:36 <kevinmarks> there isn't resistance to JSON
18:02:36 <ben_thatmustbeme> hhalpin: i am going to try to come up with a standard JSON format that AS2 and MF2's JSON can both translate to
18:02:44 <hhalpin> Modularity that destroys inteoperability is a bad idea.
18:02:44 <aaronpk> hhalpin: modularity that destroys interoperability is bad and i'll go on record saying that
18:03:03 <ben_thatmustbeme> hhalpin: which btw, was inspired by your talk
18:03:04 <aaronpk> tantek: the example given counters that, so unless we have actual harm demnonstrated we have one positive example and no negative examples
18:03:10 <tantek> action-35
18:03:10 <trackbot> action-35 -- Tantek Çelik to Come up with a simple proposal for implicit typing based on property names -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW
18:03:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/35
18:03:11 <hhalpin> Indeed the world shows that Javascript+HTML5 is a dominant paradigm
18:03:15 <aaronpk> TOPIC: actions and issues
18:03:18 <cwebber2> ben_thatmustbeme: you probably want to work with aaronpk on that
18:03:21 <hhalpin> Javascript+CSS+HTML5
18:03:29 <hhalpin> If there's a world where CSS is used on something other than HTML, I'd like to know
18:03:35 <wilkie> tbf, it would technically be possible to make a social api implementation that produces no data if all possible outputs are SHOULD haha
18:03:42 <hhalpin> Otherwise, it's pretty clear the example re modularity doesn't make sense
18:03:48 <cwebber2> wilkie: haha
18:04:00 <rhiaro_> wilkie: haha, social ghosts
18:04:00 <cwebber2> ben_thatmustbeme: aaronpk is already exploring that, you can probably maximize efforts by working together
18:04:04 <wilkie> cwebber2: I like the art/philosophy of that kind of system.
18:04:05 <aaronpk> Arnaud: normaly this is the way for someone to signal you want this to be looked at by the WG
18:04:13 <kevinmarks> JSON-LD islands in <script> are the weird thing here
18:04:14 <cwebber2> wilkie: no data is good data
18:04:19 <tantek> PROPOSE close action 35 as completed with the Post Type Discovery Editor's Draft
18:04:19 <elf-pavlik> actions don't need formal resolutions
18:04:21 <cwebber2> no data complies with all specs
18:04:30 <hhalpin> Precisely wilkie. If there is folks that disagree with JSON, then I suspect their systems will simply not be made interoperable with.
18:04:31 <wilkie> cwebber2: you're not wrong if you don't try
18:04:42 <cwebber2> :)
18:04:43 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:04:52 <aaronpk> RESOLVED close action 35
18:04:53 <cwebber2> thanks for chairing tantek !
18:04:57 <kevinmarks> harry, you're strawmanning
18:05:01 <elf-pavlik> thanks all!
18:05:02 <wilkie> thanks all
18:05:05 <hhalpin> No, I'm not straw-manning.
18:05:10 <aaronpk> trackbot: end meeting
18:05:10 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:05:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Arnaud, csarven, rhiaro, aaronpk, shanehudson, sandro, elf-pavlik, kevinmarks, wilkie, eprodrom, jasnell, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber,
18:05:13 <cwebber2> and thanks for excellent scribing aaronpk
18:05:14 <Zakim> ... tantek, hhalpin, james, tsyesika, wseltzer, akuckartz
18:05:14 <aaronpk> hhalpin: http://www.sitepoint.com/svg-styling-with-css/
18:05:15 <hhalpin> I think people should accept JSON and MAY accept other things
18:05:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:05:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-social-minutes.html trackbot
18:05:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:05:19 <RRSAgent> I see no action items