14:47:54 RRSAgent has joined #alreq 14:47:54 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-irc 14:48:13 Zakim has joined #alreq 14:50:49 Shervin has joined #alreq 14:53:45 Zakim, this is ALReq Weekly, 20 October 2015 14:53:45 got it, Shervin 14:53:56 mostafa has joined #alreq 14:54:08 present+ Shervin 14:54:58 ScribeNick: Shervin 14:55:03 Behnam has joined #alreq 14:55:11 present+ mostafa 14:55:18 present+ Behnam 14:57:05 zakim, this is Arabic Layout Requirements 5th Weekly Meeting 14:57:06 got it, Behnam 14:57:22 ScribeNick: Behnam 14:57:28 ScribeNick: Shervin 14:57:55 agenda+ Status review of action items from previous meeting 14:58:11 agenda+ Recruiting Status 14:59:03 agenda+ Status report on glossary work 14:59:18 agenda+ Status report on list of references 14:59:27 agenda+ Planning for start of drafting 15:03:35 Shervin, are you calling in? 15:04:01 Trying. WebEx ain't working. Trying to dial in. 15:05:54 r12a has joined #alreq 15:06:02 present+ r12a 15:06:04 agenda? 15:07:08 Chair: Behnam 15:07:34 Najib has joined #alreq 15:07:40 Hi 15:07:47 present+ Najib 15:07:47 calling... 15:08:01 ACTION: Behnam to file github issues for special cases, 15:08:02 like Quran [recorded in [34]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/13-alreq-minutes.html#action09] 15:10:13 action- 1 15:10:19 actions? 15:10:23 ACTION: Behnam to file github issues for special cases, like Quran 15:10:25 actions? 15:11:54 ACTION: Behnam to follow-up with Martin about a Lightning Talk at the IUC 15:12:07 ACTION: Behnam to prepare slides for the talk and share with the TF 15:12:34 Gather information about Arabic-specific Typesetting software 15:13:24 actions? 15:14:07 Behnam: Is working on the slides for the IUC presentation. 15:14:24 Behnam: Next agenda item is about typesetting software. 15:14:42 ACTION: Everybody to gather information about Arabic-specific Typesetting software 15:15:06 ACTION: Richard to figure out how to maintain action items 15:15:11 Zakim, open agendum 1 15:15:11 agendum 1. "Status review of action items from previous meeting" taken up [from Shervin] 15:15:14 closed 15:15:17 actions? 15:15:41 action- 6 15:15:45 actions? 15:16:06 ACTION: Behnam to file an issue re Math and whether to exclude that in the first version 15:16:34 ongoing 15:17:18 Behnam: is still working on action item related to math. 15:17:28 ACTION: Behnam to research the existing experts for other languages like Urdu 15:17:54 ACTION: r12a to check regarding processing of the minutes and get back to the group 15:18:02 agenda- 9 15:18:06 Behnam: Will keep the action item open regarding other languages experts (e.g. Urdu). 15:18:19 ACTION: Shervin to put together a preliminary list of existing literature 15:18:51 Behnam: Question for Richard regarding publishing the minutes. 15:19:08 r12a: Will publish the minute. 15:19:14 scribenick: Behnam 15:19:34 Shervin: On the email sent to the ML, there's a Dropbox link to see the files 15:19:59 https://www.dropbox.com/s/u7kn9sy9tuve0s9/ALReq_Refs_List.md?dl=0 15:20:49 ... Not all the items will be referenced first-hand 15:21:08 ... and some are more valuable than others 15:21:39 https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jt161nncj3c6xez/AABCFWUdKCGZTW9gXS9tYSpVa?dl=0 15:21:48 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:21:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html Behnam 15:22:48 ... We need someone with knowledge of Arabic to help understanding some of these documents 15:23:03 ... some taken from the website of standard organization of Saudi Arabia 15:23:27 q+ 15:23:39 http://w3c.github.io/typography/#justification 15:23:42 ack r12a 15:23:46 ScribeNick: Shervin 15:23:58 1+ 15:24:00 q+ 15:24:18 azzeddine has joined #alreq 15:24:23 http://www.tug.org/tugboat/tb27-2/tb87benatia.pdf 15:24:27 r12a: Topics provided in the email. 15:24:29 http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jep/3336451.0013.105/--justify-just-or-just-justify?rgn=main;view=fulltext 15:24:35 http://www.cle.org.pk/Publication/papers/2004/rule-based-expert-system.pdf 15:25:15 Shervin: Anyone with a Dropbox account can ask for write permission to add documents directly, or, if not, send Shervin change requests over email 15:25:24 http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1059 15:25:27 Shervin: Going to put in the topics that Richard sent over 15:25:47 q? 15:25:54 r12a: Some of them might not want to go into the list. 15:26:00 the last url just give ideas to consider for alreq, rather than being a reference doc 15:26:00 q- 15:26:11 agenda? 15:26:19 present+ azzeddine 15:26:42 Topic: Recruiting Status 15:26:48 agenda- 10 15:26:50 Zakim, next agendum 15:26:50 agendum 2. "Recruiting Status" taken up [from Shervin] 15:26:56 q+ 15:27:00 q+ 15:27:07 ack mostafa 15:27:16 zakim, who's here? 15:27:16 Present: Shervin, mostafa, Behnam, r12a, Najib, azzeddine 15:27:18 On IRC I see azzeddine, Najib, r12a, Behnam, mostafa, Shervin, Zakim, RRSAgent 15:27:22 q+ 15:27:26 ack Shervin 15:27:27 Mostafa: No update from contacts. 15:28:05 Shervin: Welcoming, Azzeddine. 15:28:24 Shervin: Question for Mostafa regarding Salar's participation. 15:28:33 q+ 15:28:52 Behnam: Is Salar on the mailing list? 15:29:13 r12a: He's on the list. 15:29:16 q? 15:29:24 ack r12a 15:30:01 r12a: Sent some information to the University in Oman. Copied people who are going to go there for a meeting re Unicode. 15:30:31 present+ Azzeddine_on_IRC 15:30:33 ... Craig Cummings showed interest and he will follow the conversation on mailing list. 15:30:42 zakim, who's here? 15:30:42 Present: Shervin, mostafa, Behnam, r12a, Najib, azzeddine, Azzeddine_on_IRC 15:30:44 On IRC I see azzeddine, Najib, r12a, Behnam, mostafa, Shervin, Zakim, RRSAgent 15:30:49 present- azzeddine 15:30:51 zakim, who's here? 15:30:51 Present: Shervin, mostafa, Behnam, r12a, Najib, Azzeddine_on_IRC 15:30:52 On IRC I see azzeddine, Najib, r12a, Behnam, mostafa, Shervin, Zakim, RRSAgent 15:31:06 q? 15:31:32 Najib: Still looking for right people who are aware of Arabic publishing including Quran. 15:31:44 ... People contacted don't know what's expected from them. 15:31:57 ... May want to contact them regularly as we advance in the document. 15:32:00 q+ 15:32:01 agenda? 15:32:10 ack Shervin 15:32:47 azzeddine 15:32:51 hello all, my apologies 15:33:04 Shervin: As a follow up to Najib's comment: we can point people to the keywords list and document structure, as well as other Layout Requirement documents published 15:33:21 Shervin: Re: Recruiting. Would be good to share JLReq and list of keywords with people who might be interested. 15:33:33 azzeddine, Hi. Are you calling in to the teleconf? 15:33:38 agenda? 15:33:59 Zakim, take next agendum 15:33:59 I don't understand 'take next agendum', Shervin 15:34:09 Zakim, next agendum 15:34:09 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Shervin 15:34:17 q? 15:34:25 q- 15:34:38 Zakim, open next agendum 15:34:38 agendum 3. "Status report on glossary work" taken up [from Shervin] 15:35:14 on: http://irc.w3.org/ 15:35:43 q+ 15:36:02 azzeddine, we have a WebEx conf call going on here: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m2be0a83f0c7797b80b69ce09c45e0419 15:36:14 Shervin: Have the spreadsheet. Shared with people who showed interest. Mostafa added some terms. How people feel about starting the translation? 15:36:41 ack mostafa 15:37:10 mostafa: Suggests to look in the existing literature. Find the words used. 15:37:25 ... If there's one, we're good. If there is more we can decide about it later. 15:37:39 ... this would reduce the amount of work. 15:37:40 +1 15:37:46 q+ 15:37:50 q? 15:38:11 i have thisproblem: Java is not working., on https://mit.webex.com 15:38:19 Najib: Didn't start conributing yet. Have a set of terms to add. Some already added. 15:38:28 ... Not sure how to fill the glossary with translation. 15:38:40 azzeddine, you can also dial in direct using a phone - would that work? 15:38:41 azzeddine, i just sent you phone numbers to dial in via direct message 15:38:46 ... We can have many terms which means the same concept. 15:38:54 ... This is the question for the group. 15:38:54 q+ 15:38:56 ack Najib 15:39:01 ack Shervin 15:39:34 Shervin: As mostafa mentioned, there can exist duplicate terms 15:40:04 ... the requirement document will be in English, and we can have all the different terms used in other languages 15:40:39 q+ 15:41:04 Mostafa: Another aspect of what Najib mentioned; different terms in English for same concept. 15:41:05 ... and the second thing is that we don't need limit the glossary to one translation per term 15:41:42 ... We can use one of them. Others can just appear or be linked to original. 15:41:58 +1 15:42:13 q+ 15:42:18 ack mostafa 15:42:19 q+ 15:42:25 ack Shervin 15:42:52 Shervin: Question for mostafa and Najib: do you have access to the google-docs document? 15:43:37 ... (both confirm) Feel free to work on the document there and I will chip in myself 15:44:52 q+ 15:45:10 This is the document: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nSxYKQm_mKroCmxU4fyJ-g70Eo1_mF89yHZg8YNOuzc/edit#gid=0 15:45:30 q- 15:45:31 Shervin: Added columns for Persian and Arabic translations 15:45:36 ack mostafa 15:45:56 Shervin: Let's start with priorities 1 and 2, for now 15:46:16 Mostafa: Sources should be document. We need to have them documented in a spreadsheet. 15:46:25 q+ 15:46:56 Behnam: How is different than current state of the doc? 15:47:21 Mostafa: There is no bibliography. e.g. "Soltani" is not specified. 15:47:24 ack Shervin 15:48:03 Shervin: I'm going to add a unique identifier to all the items in our references list 15:48:26 +1 15:48:47 ... for now, if you see something in the glossary that's not clear, you can add a new tab to the spreadsheet and keep them there temporarily 15:48:51 q? 15:49:06 agenda? 15:49:13 Behnam: Other discussion about glossary work. 15:49:21 Mostafa: Actions needed to be defined? 15:49:59 ACTION: Shervin to add unique ids to the references list 15:50:31 ACTION: Shervin to process links proposed by Richard 15:50:42 draft minutes 15:51:01 ACTION: Mostafa and Najib to populate translations in the Glossary 15:51:08 agenda? 15:51:15 next agendum 15:51:34 Zakim, open next agendum 15:51:34 agendum 4 was just opened, Shervin 15:52:13 Shervin: We already covered the topic and got the actions, which I'll follow up on 15:52:39 agenda? 15:52:42 ACTION: Shervin to add list of references to spreadsheet and assign unique identifiers 15:53:39 Zakim, next agendum 15:53:39 agendum 5. "Planning for start of drafting" taken up [from Shervin] 15:53:47 Zakim, open next agendum 15:53:47 agendum 5 was just opened, Shervin 15:54:02 q+ 15:54:08 ack Shervin 15:55:18 Shervin: Najib, in an email, mentioned the use/misuse of typefaces/fonts 15:55:32 q+ 15:55:33 ... this is a good example of what we can cover 15:56:01 ... in section "Font and Typography Considerations" 15:56:26 ... and there are other writing styles to also consider, like Nasta'liq 15:56:32 Najib: Will propose some text for this section. Will email the content. 15:56:42 ack r12a 15:56:56 for reference, here's a similar section in clreq http://w3c.github.io/clreq/#commonly_used_chinese_typefaces 15:57:22 r12a: One thought is to avoid the style-guide pitfall. There is a similar section in CLReq. We should be careful not to write recommendations. 15:57:29 q+ 15:57:35 ack Shervin 15:58:45 Shervin: Readability issue of font styles something to put in the document? 15:59:13 r12a: Can be. Styling and justifications, etc. of fonts are different. Styling of Nastaliq is very different. 16:00:09 Behnam: Wanted to note that although we don't want to recommend, for the sake of describing the problem, we need to get to the description and classes of styles. 16:00:33 q? 16:00:36 agenda? 16:00:47 r12a: The behaviour varies from font style to font style. We rather document rather than providing recommendations. 16:00:48 q+ 16:01:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:01:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html Behnam 16:01:41 another example: fonts in the Ruqah style never use elongation at all (see http://rishida.net/blog/?p=1059) 16:01:51 RRSAgent, access public 16:01:51 I'm logging. I don't understand 'access public', Behnam. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:01:55 q+ 16:02:04 rrsagent, make log public 16:02:32 q- 16:02:40 ack Shervin 16:02:42 +1 to Shervin's comment 16:02:57 q+ 16:02:59 +1 too 16:03:13 Shervin: Document the usages without favoring one over the other. 16:03:50 Najib: The intention was to describe styles. And what not to do with styles. Some remarks to make people aware of how to use them. 16:04:01 ... Not to recommend or put rules. 16:04:07 r12a: Sounds good to me. 16:04:35 q+ 16:04:53 Behnam: Any other section of the document we want to talk about? 16:05:25 r12a: I've been hearing this for a long time; for Persian if Nastaliq is not used then Tahoma is a good font. 16:05:37 q+ 16:05:58 Behnam: Lacking other fonts, Tahoma is a font to use. Specifically for publications, it's prefered to use other fonts. 16:06:11 q- 16:06:17 q- 16:06:57 +1 to Behnam about Tahoma 16:07:00 Mostafa: Agrees with Behnam. Tahoma rarely appears in print. More options are available these days and other options are used. 16:07:12 q? 16:07:13 ... Statistically it doesn't have much appeal to Iranians. 16:07:18 q+ 16:07:20 ack mostafa 16:07:25 s/statistically/aesthetically/ 16:07:38 ack Shervin 16:08:39 q+ 16:09:54 Shervin: Mostafa likes to start working on the Characters section 16:10:14 ... and Najib is willing to start the Styles and Fonts section 16:11:30 Mostafa: Glossary is not going to be done in a week and it's an ongoing task. 16:11:52 Zakim, draft minutes 16:11:52 I don't understand 'draft minutes', Behnam 16:11:58 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:11:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html Behnam 16:12:21 Action: Mostafa to start the section on Characters and provide some draft for everyone's feedback and contribution. 16:13:06 Action: Najib to produce some text for the section "Fonts and Typographical Considerations" based on discussions on the mailing list and IRC. 16:13:47 i'm finding some interesting pages that might inspire Najib: http://islamicart.com/main/calligraphy/styles/, http://www.shutterstock.com/blog/2013/07/a-brief-guide-to-arabic-scripts-and-calligraphy/ 16:14:03 Thank Richard 16:14:15 azzeddine, since we don't have you on the phone, is there anything you like to share with us here? 16:14:18 Gonna look at it. 16:14:37 azzeddine, here's the minutes draft up to now: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html 16:14:46 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:14:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html Behnam 16:15:00 no, i follow you 16:15:38 agenda? 16:15:53 q+ 16:16:08 Behnam: I can also work with drafting of Characters sections. 16:16:15 q- 16:16:21 ack r12a 16:16:29 @ Richard. Links looks inspiring 16:16:36 Mostafa: Will communicate regarding drafting. 16:16:58 q+ 16:17:06 r12a: One thing that comes to mind; there was discussions on CSS regarding default styles and fallback styles. 16:17:23 ... which fonts one expects to see for serif, sans-serif, etc. 16:17:35 ... These questions might be relevant to Arabic as well./ 16:17:53 ack r12a 16:17:56 ... Without saying "In CSS you should do this..." 16:18:27 Behnam: Agrees. Topic of classifying writing styles. 16:18:42 ... Default writing styles for different languages might be different. 16:18:47 q+ 16:18:47 ack Behnam 16:18:54 ack Shervin 16:20:25 q+ 16:20:39 q+ 16:20:52 ack Najib 16:21:05 Shervin: Not enough study and literature about the topic of mapping the styles to serif, sans-, etc. 16:21:41 Najib: We can separate the problem of Arabic style in general and Arabic mixed with others. 16:21:45 q+ 16:21:54 ack mostafa 16:21:54 ... That's why I'm not mentioning CSS firsthand.\ 16:22:30 Mostafa: Shervin mentioned Naskh as bookish type. There's not much certainty about these. 16:23:03 ... As we don't want to come across as a style guide. We don't have to make statement that there's not enough info. 16:23:04 q+ 16:23:32 r12a: We can describe general tendency as background information. 16:23:35 q- 16:23:54 Mostafa: The amount of content that we go into details not clear to us just yet. 16:24:46 Behnam: Agrees. There is the lack of enough study on these topics. If we look deeper we might be able to do something that benefits from the existing studies... 16:25:32 ... For the case of CSS (serif, sans-, monospace), because they were there in the beginning of desktop pub 16:26:07 ... The reason for having these classes was different use-cases in the western world. 16:26:16 ... They had connotations in design. 16:26:24 q+ 16:26:43 ... That's why something like computer source code is present in monospace. 16:27:03 ... The root cause of having these definition is the use cases. 16:27:35 ... For Arabic we have Nastaliq for fancy documents (like a graduation certificate) 16:27:42 I can't give any opinion Now about these topics. However, when we propose a text, I'll study it with a confirmed arabic calligraph 16:27:50 ... Handwriting style used for some friendly note 16:28:06 ... These use cases are not documented. 16:28:19 ack Behnam 16:28:22 ... I don't see a big problem in documenting on what we know and agree on. 16:30:36 +1 16:31:00 Shervin: I see your point, but I think there's not enough consensus about the style usage 16:31:11 ... specially when it gets to different languages/regions 16:31:44 ... we can show people some usages of styles 16:32:09 ... but we cannot recommend any style explicitly 16:32:21 ... because, for example, a handwriting font may not look good enough 16:32:23 +1 16:32:27 ack Shervin 16:33:47 Behnam: We can agree on what's formal or official. 16:34:08 I am disconnected from the call. 16:35:22 Shervin, we're waiting for you on the call 16:35:34 Just a second. 16:36:03 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:36:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html r12a 16:36:37 q+ on AOB 16:36:59 Behnam: We can agree with a good probability that an official certificate would be in Nastaliq or a variation. 16:37:02 q+ 16:37:22 Behnam: It's a thin line between recommending and this is the common practice. 16:37:42 Behnam: It's a slightly different case from Latin script when it comes to use-cases. 16:37:55 Behnam: The practices are different between languages. 16:38:14 Behnam: We can agree that we want to document the styles. 16:38:35 ... After that the use-cases can be talked about based on region and language. 16:38:43 ... We can find resources regarding that. 16:38:45 q? 16:38:58 ack Najib 16:38:58 Najib, you wanted to comment on AOB 16:39:27 ack Shervin 16:41:01 we can say "Nastaliq tends to be used for ..." 16:41:13 Najib: Question on Unicode conference remote participation? 16:41:39 Behnam: I guess not. If people are interested in some talks, then we can setup some video conferencing. 16:42:22 Behnam: We can set up a video conf for the lightening talk. 16:42:27 https://github.com/w3c/alreq 16:42:43 ACTION: Richard to ensure that people are notified about github issues 16:42:46 Najib: Question about getting notification when someone files a Github issue. 16:42:57 Behnam: You need to watch the repository. 16:43:36 Behnam: Any other topics before we close the call? 16:45:53 Najib has left #alreq 16:45:54 Thanks everyone! 16:46:06 Thank you. 16:46:08 Bye. 16:46:13 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:46:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/20-alreq-minutes.html Behnam