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14:26:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-irc
14:26:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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14:26:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
14:26:58 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:26:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
14:27:00 <trackbot> Date: 19 October 2015
14:27:07 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:27:08 <Zakim> I have been told this is WebEx https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m09c698f2da7d2f28d301b85cf2d76b08 with password dpub, dial in 644 278 410
14:28:26 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0058.html
14:28:53 <ivan> Regrets+ Ben, Brady
14:48:00 <ivan> Regrets+ Laura
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14:59:00 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
14:59:33 <tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0039.html
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15:00:32 <pkra> Present+ Peter Krautzberger
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15:00:36 <dauwhe> Present+ Dave_Cramer
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15:00:42 <mgylling> Present+ Markus_gylling
15:00:46 <laudrain> Present+ Luc Audrain
15:01:02 <nickbarreto> Present+ Nick Barreto
15:01:11 <tzviya> present+ TzviyaSiegman
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15:02:04 <HeatherF> present+ Heather_Flanagan
15:02:41 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
15:02:52 <Bill_Kasdorf> Present+ Bill_Kasdorf
15:02:59 <ivan> zakim, code?
15:02:59 <Zakim> I have been told this is WebEx https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m09c698f2da7d2f28d301b85cf2d76b08 with password dpub, dial in 644 278 410
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15:03:14 <mgylling> scribenick mgylling
15:03:18 <tzviya> scribe: mgylling
15:03:30 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan
15:03:37 <pbelfanti> Present+ Paul Belfanti, but having trouble accessing WebEx
15:03:48 <Karen> present+ Karen
15:03:49 <mgylling>  tzviya: new member introduction: Nick Barreto
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15:04:16 <mgylling> nickbarreto: I am the cofounder of Canelo, a digital publisher in the UK.
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15:04:31 <Julie_Morris> present + Julie_Morris
15:05:06 <mgylling> … been working with ebooks mostly for large publishers, one of the the things we care about is doing digital publishing not as an afterthought but bringing it to the forefront
15:05:13 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-dpub-minutes.html
15:05:14 <mgylling> Tzviya: We are happy to have you
15:05:18 <mgylling> topic: last weeks minutes
15:05:25 <mgylling> tzviya: any comments?
15:05:37 <mgylling> Luc: I was present but I am not on the list
15:05:59 <TimCole> present+ Tim_Cole
15:06:12 <clapierre> present+ Charles LaPierre
15:06:15 <astearns> present+ Alan_Stearns
15:06:17 <mgylling> topic: ServiceWorkers with special guest Jake Archibald
15:06:26 <Karen> PWP
15:06:57 <laudrain> Thanks Ivan
15:07:06 <mgylling> Jake: I work for Google Chrome in the UK, one of the co-editors of the Service Workers spec
15:07:15 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/service-workers/
15:07:17 <mgylling> … what do you want to know from me? An overview?
15:07:51 <mgylling> … SW itself is just a javascript runtime that can operate on a separate thread. Key difference in lifecycle is that it can spin up without the existence of pages on the origin
15:08:52 <mgylling> … the starting point for the web becomes the SW rather than the page. One of the key features is offline because you get a fetch event for every request the page makes, so you can create an offline experience by listening for fetch events
15:09:26 <mgylling> … you get to choose what to do, the default being nothing, but you can create a response, a string or blob and send that back
15:09:41 <mgylling> … or you can fetch things from named caches, from IndexedDB
15:10:25 <mgylling> … gold standard of this type of app development is “offline first”, create the offline experience before even attempting to go to the network, seeing the network as progressive enhancement
15:10:39 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
15:10:52 <mgylling> … the aim is to ship stuff from the caches as quickly as possible, and then to to the network
15:11:53 <mgylling> … lots of user experience we are trying to figure out now, but the SW doesnt make any of these decision
15:12:07 <tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/#arch
15:12:14 <mgylling> tzviya: summary I hope fits with the PWP document we have published
15:12:48 <mgylling> … historically most digital publication are an offline experience, but we are looking to bridge online and offline for the user as a seamless experience
15:12:59 <mgylling> s/publication/publications
15:12:59 <tzviya> q?
15:13:09 <dauwhe> q+
15:13:13 <ivan> q+
15:13:15 <mgylling> Jake: haven’t had time to read the PWP doc yet
15:14:01 <mgylling> [URL fun ensues]
15:14:15 <tzviya> ack dau
15:14:16 <mgylling> q?
15:15:35 <mgylling> dauwhe: I played around with this a little bit, one of the things we are thinking about is how to we make ebooks first class citizens on the web. How can we make a good reading experience in browsers without the need for dedicated reading systems? Basic functionality we want to achieve on the web, and reading offline is one example of the functionality we need
15:15:51 <tzviya> s/http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp/#arch/ http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/#arch
15:16:38 <mgylling> … using SW was step on, I am curious about what more could we do? If the SW intercepts a URL request, can it redirect?
15:17:01 <mgylling> Jake: when the user requests a particular URL you can respond with another. We are also working on streams
15:17:48 <mgylling> … you could use a SW to build an ebook reader which would request one of these ebook formats on the fly and rewrite it to HTML, even streaming if the ebook format supports streaming
15:18:03 <mgylling> dauwhe: in EPUB we are looking at an unzipped format
15:18:16 <mgylling> Jake: the problem with the zip format is that the directory is at the end of the file
15:18:35 <tzviya> ack ivan
15:18:39 <mgylling> dauwhe: Readium uses byte ranges I think for zip
15:19:11 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
15:19:54 <mgylling> ivan: There is work going on on more streamable web packaging, heard gossip that all this was pending, since SW would take care of it. Do you know about this?
15:19:58 <dauwhe> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
15:20:52 <mgylling> Jake: a while ago I heard about this, personally I am not sure what the benefits are, we have a platform where we can store things separately. I guess thats why they are waiting for SW. We are very much subscribed to the extensible web manifesto with this, going as low as we can.
15:21:12 <mgylling> … but something like recieving a zip format and searching inside is one thing SW can do
15:22:24 <mgylling> ivan: that was the main reason they were looking at the packaging stuff, the other questions I have is more on the practical side: I looked at the spec, I am not a webapp developer and I could not understand it. Is there work going on to sort of popularize the whole thing to make it more palatable?
15:22:46 <dauwhe> q+
15:23:20 <mgylling> Jake: I symphatize, as a web developer even I find the specs impenetrable. At the moment I am working on an offline course through Udacity [?] and free
15:23:43 <mgylling> … hope to release that in december, hope to convert it to a series of articles as well
15:23:47 <tzviya> https://jakearchibald.com/ is also helpful
15:24:11 <mgylling> Ivan: it is part of Chrome already, works in Firefox too, what about the other two?
15:24:27 <tzviya> q?
15:25:33 <mgylling> Jake: Firefox will be fully implemented soon. Microsoft has given thumbs up, but has not started work on it. The big question everyone asks is about iOS Safari. We are not sure about the progress there. They are now taking part in the F2F meetings which is a positive.
15:25:45 <mgylling> … but there is no date for that
15:26:43 <tzviya> ack Bill
15:27:30 <mgylling> BillK: we should be careful to avoid the linear ebook paradigm, not just a matter of unpacking an navigating linearly
15:27:48 <mgylling> Jake: F2F next week we will try to solve how to deal with range requests
15:28:09 <mgylling> … can you build a cached item progressively using multiple requests
15:28:29 <ivan> Regrets+ Ayla_Stein
15:28:29 <mgylling> … the web doesnt really need packaged formats, range requests are a preferred model
15:28:35 <tzviya> ack da
15:28:43 <ivan> Present+ Jake_Archibald
15:29:09 <ivan> q?
15:29:10 <mgylling> … I took a stab at making an offline version of Wikipedia. That model worked really well, you might not cache the whole thing offline
15:29:13 <ivan> q+
15:29:23 <ivan> q-
15:30:00 <mgylling> dauwhe: I just wanted to partly answer Ivans question about the difficulty of the spec. There were enough tutorials out there that I could create my sample using that.
15:30:46 <mgylling> Jake: one of the things on our TODO list for next year is a shim for SW that will read AppCache manifests, to provide a path for people who just wants to read a list of files
15:31:06 <mgylling> … we want to sit back and see what the common things are
15:31:07 <tzviya> q?
15:31:11 <ivan> q+
15:31:34 <ivan> q-
15:33:16 <mgylling> DanielWeck: I am a developer at Readium, OSS implementation of EPUB 3 Reading Systems, native apps and web-based readers inc a Chrome app.
15:34:11 <mgylling> … Readium will read an EPUB that is exploded on the server side. Unzip onto a filesystem on a server, and Readium can fetch the data from the unpacked file system. The challenges we face is when we try to fetch data in the zipped form.
15:35:38 <mgylling> … what we have to do extract the contents of the EPUB on the fly, we can do that using a ZIP library and using byte-range requests, however the main caveat is that we have to preprocess, parse the content recursively and populate that tree with blob uris which creates problems in a WebView. But SW solves that problem since we can intercept requests
15:36:15 <mgylling> … using syntactic conventions we can capture that via the fetch event and return responses that will emit a payload
15:36:29 <mgylling> … this could be extended to media files, but we havent implemented that yet
15:36:51 <mgylling> … Our implementation does not use SW for caching, only for request intercepts
15:37:25 <mgylling> … caveats: the domain scope of the SW implementation has to be hosted under a particular location on the filesystem on the serverside
15:37:37 <mgylling> Jake: that is true but you can override that with a header
15:38:34 <mgylling> DanielWeck: we’ve got same-origin requirements on EPUB content, is that inflexible?
15:39:21 <mgylling> Jake. Yeah. The whole reason for the same-origin constraints is […] security and privacy
15:39:52 <mgylling> DanielWeck: requirements for https. I didnt face any issues there, but you have to use https?
15:40:07 <mgylling> Jake: Yes, we tried to avoid but couldnt find a way to do it
15:41:22 <mgylling> … if you are on a router that is not yours, you dont know it is safe, if you access BBC news, a man in the middle can intercept that, which is bad. But it gets worse if the register a service worker which can intercept and live beyond the session lifetime. That is possible with AppCache, which is really bad.
15:42:18 <mgylling> DanielWeck: the fact that the SW is by design [???]  we dont want to wait for SW registration to finish. The need to reload the page […]
15:44:04 <mgylling> Jake: I would have some kind of, if navigator.serviceworker.controller is undefined, show some kind of loading screen. You dont need to refresh the page, you can call client.claim()
15:44:41 <DanielWeck> delayed Service Worker registration (first-time reload), general Worker restrictions (no XmlHTTPRequest), browser support
15:44:42 <mgylling> tzviya: Daniel: sounds like you have many questions for Jake. Maybe we can solve this via email.
15:45:13 <astearns> what's the best public list for service worker feedback/questions?
15:45:28 <mgylling> … at TPAC we cant do a formal meeting since our groups are meeting on the same day, but informal discussions we hope can happen
15:46:29 <mgylling> ivan: the work we do in this interest group might rely a lot on SW moving forward, in the future we may need probably several times help from you
15:46:41 <mgylling> Jake: thats what I am here for
15:46:52 <mgylling> tzviya: Daniel maybe we can arrange for you to call in
15:47:06 <mgylling> tzviya: thanks Jake!
15:47:14 <mgylling> topic: extend descriptions for images and other things
15:47:22 <mgylling> s/SW/Service Workers
15:47:56 <ivan> Regrets+ Zheng_Xu
15:48:16 <mgylling> deborah: I believe we are just doing a brief update, we had been given a request from PF to tell us if this is what you want, we made some modifications which are here:
15:48:18 <dkaplan3> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-description-analysis.html
15:48:26 <dkaplan3> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-description-analysis.html#use-cases
15:49:07 <mgylling> most changes are in the use cases section, where we talk about the possible use cases for ED. We have stepped back from pushing a particular term, and instead focus on the behavior we need
15:49:28 <mgylling> … this is a list of functionaloty the Digital Publishing needs for accessibility purposes
15:49:42 <mgylling> s/functionaloty/functionality
15:49:44 <mgylling> ivan: shoot
15:49:53 <tzviya> q?
15:50:07 <mgylling> deborah: then thats what we will do
15:50:26 <mgylling> … extra thanks to Mia Lipner from Pearson
15:50:37 <mgylling> tzviya: and many thanks to Deborah too
15:50:56 <mgylling> topic: PWP outreach
15:51:19 <mgylling> karen: thanks to tzviya and nick we started to iterate and here’s a draft
15:51:22 <Karen> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Main_Page#Digital_Publishing_Interest_Group
15:52:00 <mgylling> … to contextualize what this PWP is and what it means. We are hoping that you could take a look
15:52:42 <DanielWeck> Corrected link: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Main_Page#Communications_Planning
15:52:45 <mgylling> … scroll down to communications planning. Still needs some links and things. After our discussion last week, we wanted feedback to see if this communication makes sense, for W3C, IDPF, DBW, PW, etc
15:52:54 <ivan> q+
15:53:03 <tzviya> ack iv
15:53:23 <mgylling> ivan: whats the timing? We have published but we havent done any outreach
15:53:33 <mgylling> karen: preferred timing would be next week
15:54:25 <Karen> Not yet, no
15:54:33 <mgylling> … lets wait with tweeting etc until we agree with the messaing
15:54:44 <mgylling> s/messaing/messaging
15:56:02 <mgylling> tzviya: five minutes left
15:56:14 <mgylling> … next week no meeting since we are at TPAC
15:56:51 <mgylling> … in the following week we will have shifted daylight savings. We will stay with the local times and shift the UTC.
15:57:58 <dauwhe> werewolf time!
15:58:00 <mgylling> tzviya: thanks everyone
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15:58:17 <mgylling> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-minutes.html mgylling
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