14:56:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:56:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/15-mobile-a11y-irc
14:56:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:42 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:56:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:56:44 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:56:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:56:45 <trackbot> Date: 15 October 2015
14:56:51 <Alan-Smith> Alan-Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
14:57:01 <Kathy> chair: Kathy Wahlbin
14:57:11 <Kathy> rrsagent, make log world
14:57:25 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:46 <Kathy> + Kathy
15:02:04 <Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
15:04:00 <David> David has joined #mobile-a11y
15:04:37 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:06:26 <Kathy> http://kwahlbin.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/
15:06:29 <Alan-smith> Alan-smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:33 <marcjohlic> scribe:  marcjohlic
15:08:39 <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
15:08:41 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:09:13 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  Continuation of the Discussion of Touch Proposal
15:10:07 <David> lost audio will come back
15:10:07 <marcjohlic> KW:  Discussing whether or not we can save this once AT is turned out - all functionality still available with AT on.
15:11:00 <jon_avila> jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y
15:12:25 <David> back
15:12:27 <marcjohlic> KW:  Also talked about all functions vs taking some language from Keyboard success criteria where there are some exclusions
15:13:35 <marcjohlic> DF:  Possibly an equivelence when a gesture doesn't work w/ AT, but user can still access alternate menu that brings the same functions
15:14:03 <jon_avila> iOS native apps solve this through the actions rotor which is automatically set to the actions rotor option for example in native email app
15:14:16 <marcjohlic> KW:  Agree - but extends beyond that - for example device manipulation - for example user has to shake the device.  Will need alternates to do that - so that functions are still available.  We should define what that means.
15:14:20 <jon_avila> But this would be an issue for web apps which don't have a way to exposing actions
15:16:58 <marcjohlic> DM:  At the end of last session we id'd 4.1.2 as a precedent in this area
15:17:20 <marcjohlic> DM:  Also talked about reporting to the API - can we require that it reports to the API rather than it works with AT
15:18:04 <marcjohlic> DM:  Jan suggest we may need to limit to screen reader, however we know what of the criticism of WCAG is it's focus on screen readers
15:18:30 <marcjohlic> DM:  Any tool that lets you look at the API similar  to Inspect for iOS?
15:18:57 <marcjohlic> JA:  iOS has the Accessibility Inspector  - but it is limited to things like label, hint, trait etc
15:19:17 <marcjohlic> JA:  There are some automated tools
15:19:59 <marcjohlic> DM:  If there's not an app that will let you see as you go through everything it sounds like it would be a difficult thing to test.
15:21:32 <marcjohlic> DM:  Is the requirement that we have in the language - that all functions available by touch and button presses is still available by touch and button presses once AT is turned on - is that too wide?
15:21:57 <marcjohlic> DF:  Are there any ATs for mobile that are not system technologies?
15:22:22 <marcjohlic> DM:  All kinds of possibilities.  For example Windows mobile MAY wind up w/ a version of JAWS at some point
15:22:34 <marcjohlic> DM:  What we are seeing is that most of the basic AT is built right into the OS
15:23:41 <marcjohlic> AS:: Another challenge is that we may say touch is still available when touch is on, but someone with a switch may want focus still on - not as concerned with touch.
15:25:02 <marcjohlic> DM:  Probably covered by other WCAG checkpoints at a base level - and with talk currently that will need to meet AA to get into the extensions
15:25:26 <marcjohlic> KW:  Our current statement may fall apart for switch users
15:25:53 <marcjohlic> KW:  Heard it said that it doesn't work if touch is available because switch works differently
15:26:23 <marcjohlic> JA:  I think we're saying that in addition to programmatically working we're saying that it has to work with system AT on.
15:26:55 <marcjohlic> DM:  Some people may ask "what is system assistive technology" - so we will have to define that.
15:28:55 <marcjohlic> DF:  What is the reasoning why something like scalable font is not considered system AT?  Zoom is - but scalable font is not - where do you draw the line?
15:29:17 <marcjohlic> DM:  We don't have a good line right now - think that's an area where we need to explore that definition.
15:30:12 <marcjohlic> JA:  For this particular case, large print isn't an issue because it's not an interactive thing.  That's why we almost need a different definition for this one.
15:30:25 <marcjohlic> JA:  Even if we agree on it - others will push back
15:34:39 <marcjohlic> Jan's reference from last week for adding gestures:  Hammer.js   http://hammerjs.github.io/
15:36:27 <marcjohlic> JA:  Concern is that folks will come up with all sorts of keyboard alternatives
15:36:51 <marcjohlic> DM:  We could try to come up with a Failure, but where would we map it to?  Seems to me that we need to go with a Success Criteria
15:38:13 <marcjohlic> KW:  Kind of at a roadblock with this - maybe it needs more exploration.  The touch access on website for touch end - isn't that a problem also?  Are there other things on the web where this would applicable.  Touch end comes to mind
15:38:57 <marcjohlic> AS:  In the past WCAG guidelines were not necessarily specific, but now we're trying to come up w/ device specific (mobile).
15:40:09 <marcjohlic> DM:  One issue we could plug quickly is that right now if you have a responsive design and you have a desktop view and a mobile view - the desktop view can server as the conforming view.  Often devs will get desktop correct, but the mobile version is a disaster.
15:40:23 <marcjohlic> KW:  And I've had a client w/ the exact opposite
15:41:10 <marcjohlic> DM:  I think that's another success criteria that I haven't put in yet, but I think for this mobile extension we should get rid of that conforming desktop piece.
15:42:21 <marcjohlic> DM:  We want things to work when AT is turned on - I don't know of any other breaks outside of screen reader - there may be.  But is the big question now around using the term "system AT"?
15:42:31 <marcjohlic> JA:  Have we discussed this w/ WCAG wg?
15:42:50 <marcjohlic> KW:  Not yet, but we can start bringing things to them - try to get some wider feedback
15:43:39 <marcjohlic> KW:  We should start collecting other scenarios - we've been focused on this one - but if we think about other scenarios that would be affected we may see another way around this
15:44:03 <marcjohlic> KW:  Will add that to the survey - we may be able to get some more feedback
15:45:16 <marcjohlic> DF:  May be other ARIA constructs that were conceived before mobile was considered
15:47:25 <marcjohlic> KW:  We need to be careful about posting "hey here's a new success criteria"  - we don't have the extension model finalized in WCAG - but we can start getting some feedback
15:48:50 <marcjohlic> JA:  I was looking for the term "assistive technology" in WCAG.   There is some precedent in 4.1.2 - so maybe if we could say somehting about programmatically or available to assistive technologies.  I think what we really want to say is that it doesn't require a physical keyboard.
15:49:17 <marcjohlic> KW:  One thing I'm hearing that is different is that we're saying it needs to be operable w/ AT - and what you're saying is that it's programmatically available.
15:49:30 <marcjohlic> KW:  That might be a little nuance that we want to explore further
15:51:25 <marcjohlic> DM:  What if we just say ".. with a screen reader on"
15:52:06 <marcjohlic> KW:  But we have to see if there are other issues outside of screen reader.  Also we've been focused on touch, but what if other methods of operation come around
15:52:31 <marcjohlic> KW:  We may get push back because there are other modes of interaction
15:52:48 <marcjohlic> DM:  Certainly voice
15:53:46 <marcjohlic> KW:  Trying to think of all of the different things that go into this - what's coming - where is it going - we'll be constantly inventing interaction models.
15:55:31 <marcjohlic> KW:  Next steps:
15:55:36 <marcjohlic> KW:  No meeting next week
15:55:53 <marcjohlic> KW:  Will send out a survey on the touch proposal to gather more feedback
15:56:11 <marcjohlic> KW:  Survey will also be going through extension document - see what's missing - getting some feedback
15:57:37 <marcjohlic> KW:  Take a look at these things over the next two weeks and we'll see what are the outstanding questions we have so that we can get this outline going
15:57:51 <marcjohlic> trackbot, end meeting
15:57:51 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:57:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, marcjohlic
15:57:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/15-mobile-a11y-minutes.html trackbot
15:58:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:58:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items