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12:49:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:49:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
12:49:23 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
12:49:24 <trackbot> Meeting: XForms Users Community Group Teleconference
12:49:24 <trackbot> Date: 14 October 2015
12:50:15 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2015Oct/0010
12:50:24 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2015Oct/0010
12:50:35 <Steven> Chair: Steven
12:57:40 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
13:01:06 <alain> alain has joined #forms
13:01:54 <Steven> Present: Erik, Alain, Steven
13:03:42 <Steven> Present+Philip
13:05:13 <Steven> Steven: Nick says he is in a meeting that has overrun, so let's start
13:05:21 <Steven> Topic: XForms day 5th Nov
13:05:21 <Steven> http://xmlamsterdam.com/2015/pre-conference
13:06:03 <Steven> Steven: Looks like a good program, a full day
13:06:13 <Steven> ... registration is open.
13:06:20 <Steven> Topic: Editing
13:06:20 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2015Jul/0005.html
13:06:25 <Steven> Steven: Nothing to report
13:06:34 <Steven> Topic: public-xformsusers
13:06:34 <Steven> Mark will join us on the 21st.
13:06:48 <Steven> Topic: Correct namespace of XPath Functions?
13:06:48 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2015Oct/0000.html
13:08:49 <Steven> Erik: I actually clarified that recently in the spec. Let me check what I said.
13:09:00 <Steven> Steven: THe answer is basically"No" I think
13:09:05 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
13:09:24 <Steven> Erik: Hmm, we don't actually spell it out.
13:09:41 <Steven> ... but you wouldn't have to change functions like count
13:10:44 <Steven> Steven: We just need to point out the change in semantics when a funciton has moved from XForms to XPath 2.0
13:11:02 <Steven> Erik: I don't see why he thinks that the ns prefix changes, let me just read it again
13:12:30 <Steven> Steven: Do we still say "The XForms Function Library includes the entire [XPath] Core Function Library"?
13:12:40 <Steven> Erik: There is a new wording
13:12:50 <ebruchez> https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XPath_Expressions_Module#The_XForms_Function_Library
13:14:44 <Steven> Steven: So we do say it!
13:14:56 <Steven> Erik: No; so it's obviously not clear enough
13:16:07 <Steven> Erik: In practice in XF1.1, functions that are in XPath like count, can be used without a prefix, as can XForms-specific functions
13:17:14 <Steven> ... I don't think that in XF 1.1 you are required to put the functions in the XF: prefix
13:18:03 <ebruchez> XForms 1.1: count(), substring(), index(), etc.
13:18:08 <Steven> Erik: I don't think that XF1.0 supported functions in namespaces
13:18:31 <Steven> Erik: In XF2.0 you can do the same
13:18:34 <ebruchez> XForms 2.0: count(), substring(), index(), etc. but also xf:index(), xf:case(), etc.
13:18:55 <Steven> Steven: Is there an XPath namespace
13:18:59 <Steven> Erik: fn:
13:19:07 <Steven> s/namespace/namespace?/
13:19:23 <Steven> Erik: Not sure what it does, or is required.
13:19:49 <Steven> ... let me look at the spec
13:20:02 <ebruchez> XPath 2.0 defines http://www.w3.org/2005/xpath-functions for functions -- associated with fn
13:20:14 <Steven> Erik: Interesting. XPath2 defines functions associated with fn:
13:21:37 <Steven> Steven: So we have an xf: for functions, XPath has fn:, and if you leave the prefix off, you get both sets.
13:21:47 <Steven> ... in XForms 2.0
13:22:56 <Steven> Erik: The new way is that you SHOULD use a prefix, but for backward compatibility you can leave it off.
13:23:40 <Steven> s/prefix/prefix for the XForms functions (but not the standard XPath functions)
13:24:17 <Steven> Erik: Part of the reason is because of name clashes between XPath and XFOrms
13:24:24 <Steven> s/XFO/XFo/
13:26:53 <Steven> Present+Liam
13:27:22 <Steven> Liam: In XPath 2 there is a concept of default namespace for functions
13:27:40 <Steven> ... you can use fn: but no need.
13:28:57 <Steven> Steven: So we should use a xf: namespace, and import all XPath functions into it.
13:29:01 <Steven> Liam you could do that
13:29:10 <Steven> s/Liam/Liam:/
13:30:23 <Steven> Erik: We would use the XPath namespace, and allow the XForms functions not to need a prefix
13:30:31 <Steven> Steven: Sounds a bit ad hoc
13:33:00 <Steven> Steven: What seems a better approach is to have all functions (XF and XP) in the XF namespace, and one extra namespace, XF1, for the backwards compatibiity functions from XF1.1
13:33:51 <ebruchez> can you write count(), and index()?
13:35:07 <liam> xf1:index(), index-of() is in XPath
13:35:09 <Steven> Steven: So you never have to use a prefix except when you want to use one of the earlier versions of functions that are now in XPath
13:35:29 <ebruchez> count(), xf:index()
13:37:17 <ebruchez> xf:foo()
13:37:31 <Steven> Erik: But we want to prevent future clashes
13:37:36 <ebruchez> foo() vs. xf:foo()
13:39:32 <Steven> Steven: So it's like this - xf1: only contains all XFOrms functions, fn: only contains all XPath functions, and XF: contains both (less the clashes, where XPath functions are used, not the xf1 ones)
13:39:43 <Steven> s/XFO/XFo/
13:40:20 <Steven> Erik: So we have two XForms namespaces
13:40:23 <Steven> Steven: Yes
13:41:00 <Steven> Erik: Yes, we need to introduce and document that
13:41:06 <Steven> ... to avoid future clashes.
13:41:39 <ebruchez> xf:count()
13:41:55 <Steven> Erik: THe alternative would be to say that all XPath is in fn:, only XForms functions in xf:
13:42:02 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
13:44:41 <Steven> Steven: We don't have the right to add anything to the fn: namespace
13:46:14 <ebruchez> xf:foo()
13:47:21 <Steven> Steven: xffn:foo()
13:47:40 <ebruchez> xf:foo()
13:47:55 <Steven> Erik: I would prefer to use the XForms prefix
13:48:50 <ebruchez> xf:index()
13:48:55 <Steven> ... so we put the union of functions in the NEW namespace, which would be the default namespace
13:49:15 <Steven> ... and then use xf: for the XForms-only namespace
13:49:22 <Steven> Steven: I agree.
13:49:51 <Steven> ACTION Steven: Repy to email on namespaces in XForms 2.0
13:49:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2036 - Repy to email on namespaces in xforms 2.0 [on Steven Pemberton - due 2015-10-21].
13:50:12 <ebruchez> http:..../xforms-functions
13:50:41 <ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/2002/xforms-functions
14:03:34 <Steven> Topic: Community Group
14:04:18 <Steven> [General discussion of the sort of articles that should be on the CG pages, and of migrating to the CG wiki]
14:04:29 <Steven> [ADJOURn]
14:04:32 <Steven> s/n/N
14:04:38 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:04:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/14-forms-minutes.html Steven
14:12:22 <Steven> Regrets: Nick
14:12:28 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:12:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/14-forms-minutes.html Steven
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