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13:59:02 <manu> rrsagent, make logs public
13:59:09 <manu> Meeting: Web Payments IG Work Session
13:59:18 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-wpay-minutes.html manu
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14:02:19 <CyrilV> Present+ CyrilV
14:03:39 <ShaneM> Present+ ShaneM
14:04:04 <manu> Present+ Manu
14:04:22 <Laurent_> Present+ Laurent_
14:04:50 <VincentK> Present+ Vincent Kuntz
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14:04:54 <AdrianHB> Present+ AdrianHB
14:05:00 <DJackson> present+ DJackson
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14:06:04 <manu> present+ Stephanie
14:07:01 <manu> scribe: AdrianHB
14:07:07 <manu> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Oct/0030.html
14:07:37 <AdrianHB> manu: majority of agenda is review of WG charter to review changes based on feedback from AC
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14:08:06 <AdrianHB> ... followed by tpac agenda discussion
14:08:12 <manu> Topic: Review Web Payments WG Charter changes
14:08:15 <AdrianHB> ... any other items?
14:08:22 <manu> Latest charter is here: http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-ig/latest/charters/payments-wg-charter.html
14:08:44 <manu> All changes since IG signed off on the charter for vote: http://manu.sporny.org/tmp/payments-wg-charter-diff.html
14:09:02 <manu> Here are all of the changes that we'll be reviewing today: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments-ig/2015Oct/0032.html
14:09:50 <AdrianHB> manu: plan is to go through changes top to bottom. On Monday the group must decide if it supports the revised charter.
14:09:56 <AdrianHB> .. any q?
14:10:35 <manu> Starting from the top: http://manu.sporny.org/tmp/payments-wg-charter-diff.html
14:11:23 <DJackson> Meeting number = 647 262 873
14:12:02 <AdrianHB> manu: goals have been simplified a lot to make the document easier to digest
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14:12:30 <AdrianHB> ... if you look at diff marked version you'll see all the areas highlighted in pink have been removed
14:13:54 <AdrianHB> ... focus is on new types of payment instruments rather than customer satisfaction (hard to gauge)
14:14:19 <AdrianHB> ... also changed language from "standard" to "recommendation"
14:14:27 <AdrianHB> ... all happy with the changes?
14:14:42 <AdrianHB> +1 on those changes
14:14:50 <AdrianHB> manu: 3 major changes in scope section
14:15:21 <AdrianHB> ... simplified to say the WG will work on messages, message flows and an API
14:15:23 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about the scope of the API work
14:15:31 <kketels> q+
14:15:40 <manu> ack ShaneM
14:15:40 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about the scope of the API work
14:16:04 <AdrianHB> shanem: it's not clear what the scope of the API work is?
14:16:23 <AdrianHB> manu: In section 3.2 the API is outlined more specifically
14:16:56 <Laurent_> q+
14:17:02 <AdrianHB> ... in the scope section we say that the WG will work on APIs as opposed to UIs and then defers to later section for specifics
14:17:03 <manu> ack kketels
14:18:08 <AdrianHB> kketels: seems to me this is like the orchestration of a payment interaction as opposed to an api. Seems to describe the behaviour of both ends of the API. A transaction flow.
14:18:25 <AdrianHB> manu: it is orchestrating the flow on the front-end
14:18:45 <AdrianHB> ... the flow is defined but also the API
14:19:35 <AdrianHB> ... section 3.2 says there may be many delivery mechanisms but one that will be specifically addressed is the browser
14:20:30 <AdrianHB> ... we may do server to server flows but limited to initiation through the web and if the instrument supports it notification of the payment
14:20:43 <AdrianHB> .. did that address the q?
14:21:19 <AdrianHB> kketels: agree there is a need to describe all of these things I am just not sure that I agree with the terminology
14:22:20 <AdrianHB> manu: this is sometimes confusing to people unfamiliar with W3C work. We are talking about 2 types of API. Browser based and a REST API. We're not talking about native APIs
14:22:53 <manu> ack Laurent_
14:22:54 <AdrianHB> kketels: happy to take offline to clarify terminology
14:23:42 <AdrianHB> laurent_: there is still a use of the word "standardise" in the scope
14:23:57 <AdrianHB> manu: will change
14:24:16 <AdrianHB> ... any other comments?
14:24:20 <CyrilV> * CyrilV has to leave the Telcon- sorry
14:25:16 <AdrianHB> manu: section 2 has new language "mediating" when referring to the user agent. is everyone happy with that language?
14:25:43 <AdrianHB> ... also that user agent is not limited only to a browser
14:25:55 <AdrianHB> laurent_: is a mobile OS a valid UA?
14:26:12 <AdrianHB> manu: I think so. It's not supposed to be limiting
14:27:12 <AdrianHB> ... big change to digital wallet definition.
14:27:35 <AdrianHB> ... (reads new definition)
14:27:45 <AdrianHB> ... any concerns over that definition?
14:28:06 <Laurent_> q+
14:28:21 <AdrianHB> ... section 2.2 - required capabilities has 4 major changes
14:28:32 <AdrianHB> ... first is a simplification of intro text
14:30:02 <manu> ack Laurent_
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14:30:12 <AdrianHB> ... second is related to registration. Concern that the registration is done "with" the user agent as opposed to "through"
14:31:21 <AdrianHB> laurent_: do we need to reference the @@ from the IG work as they are not referred to in the charter
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14:31:42 <AdrianHB> ... we should link to the IG use cases doc or remove
14:31:45 <ShaneM> +1 about "through" the user agent.  That makes more sense to me.
14:31:46 <AdrianHB> q+
14:31:53 <manu> ack AdrianHB
14:32:13 <manu> AdrianHB: I want to agree with Shane, we shouldn't say "with the user agent" - we should say "through the user agent"
14:32:22 <DJackson> +1
14:32:31 <manu> +1
14:32:55 <AdrianHB> manu: any objections to changing to through the user agent?
14:33:05 <AdrianHB> ... (notes no objections)
14:34:02 <AdrianHB> ... lots of simplification in this section (2.2)
14:34:08 <AdrianHB> .. (reads flow)
14:34:12 <AdrianHB> q+
14:34:18 <manu> ack AdrianHB
14:34:42 <VincentK> q+
14:35:07 <manu> AdrianHB: There was a bit of discussion around the flow - mentioned on the mailing list - catching up after being away for 2 weeks - that section it seems like we've narrowed ourselves down to a flow where the payee can initiate a push payment immediately as soon as they get a request from the payer. If the payer has a push payment, the payer may just make the payment.
14:36:07 <manu> AdrianHB: If the payer wants to defer the payment - the payer doesn't execute the payment - they return a response to say they want to use the 'push payment method' - that was the major change. Previous flow was always a response back first - we had language around payment completion - notifying the payer - a lot of people didn't like we didn't like the word "completion" - payment execution happening in what we were describing.
14:36:41 <manu> AdrianHB: There was a flow that was the same whether push vs. pull - now we have a flow that can change slightly - we have a good compromise here - accomodating of UX concerns from folks like browser vendors - a lot of back and forth could be bad for user experience.
14:36:47 <manu> ack VincentK
14:37:28 <AdrianHB> vincentK: in ISO20022 model the starting point is an obligation and the flow follows from that
14:37:42 <AdrianHB> ... the neg of terms is linked to this too
14:37:59 <AdrianHB> ... so there are elements that are still missing in the charter
14:39:06 <AdrianHB> ... compared to ISO20022 the whole flow is not defined
14:40:05 <AdrianHB> manu: yes, this is by design. You should still be able to execute the whole flow but only the elements of the flow that we can define technical standards for are in scope. i.e. the flow we define is a subset of the complete flow
14:40:50 <AdrianHB> ... there is a new section on deferred payment execution which allows some flexibility on the flow
14:41:23 <AdrianHB> do you (vincentk) feel that we are not going to be able to implement the ISO20022 flows?
14:42:04 <AdrianHB> vincent: there are some links that are missing between the elements?
14:42:17 <AdrianHB> manu: do you have some suggested changes that would correct this?
14:42:58 <AdrianHB> kkettels: perhaps it is unclear what the purpose of the charter is in relation to what the WG will do?
14:43:57 <AdrianHB> manu: the charter is not intended to explain the WG work in detail. the WG will look at these and make decisions about how to acheive the capabilities in the charter. W3C charters are seldom prescriptive but rather set boundaries
14:44:20 <AdrianHB> ... if the WG wants to map the flow to ISO20022 then that will be done within the group
14:44:43 <shepazu> q+
14:45:01 <manu> ack shepazu
14:45:02 <AdrianHB> vincent: suppose the charter does not mention a capability and we decide that there is one required what happens?
14:45:36 <AdrianHB> shepazu: the charter is there to set the scope. to both define what the WG should and shouldn't work on.
14:46:27 <AdrianHB> ... there is a some wiggle room if the WG agrees that to achieve one of their goals some new scope is required
14:46:43 <AdrianHB> ... if the WG doesn't agree then you need to recharter
14:47:12 <AdrianHB> manu: item 10 on the list. deferred payment execution
14:47:32 <AdrianHB> ... any concerns?
14:47:46 <AdrianHB> ... next is digital wallets
14:47:58 <AdrianHB> ... definition has been shortened
14:48:07 <AdrianHB> ... (reads definition)
14:48:49 <shepazu> q+
14:49:01 <manu> ack shepazu
14:49:12 <AdrianHB> ... other change is that the WG may define an API that may be used outside a user agent
14:49:39 <AdrianHB> shepazu: all the things mentioned are user agents so perhaps this langauge needs to change
14:50:21 <AdrianHB> manu: agree, will raise the change
14:51:08 <AdrianHB> ... we have been clear about what is out of scope wrt wallets
14:51:13 <AdrianHB> ... any concerns?
14:51:24 <AdrianHB> ... moving on to security and privacy
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14:51:37 <AdrianHB> ... (section 2.4)
14:51:50 <dezell> Present+ dezell (briefly)
14:51:51 <AdrianHB> ... minor changes
14:52:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-wpay-minutes.html dezell
14:52:49 <AdrianHB> .. into section 3.1. minor changes. have explicitly called out that the messages we are standardising could be used in server to server comms
14:52:57 <AdrianHB> ... concerns?
14:53:08 <ShaneM> q+
14:53:21 <AdrianHB> ... 3.2 is a lot of simplification but again nothing controversial
14:53:49 <manu> ack ShaneM
14:54:42 <AdrianHB> shanem: (reads back end of section 3.2) suggest that this should refer to "user agents" (plural)
14:54:50 <AdrianHB> manu: will add to changes
14:56:04 <AdrianHB> ... deliverables, stating that we would like to see specs that have already had some form of review as a starting point. Usually this means going through the community groups
14:56:34 <AdrianHB> ... also changes for interoperability success criteria. sets a high bar
14:57:06 <AdrianHB> ... a number of things must be achieved to consider the work a success
14:57:43 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about native implementation
14:57:55 <AdrianHB> ... (reads through reqs)
14:58:11 <manu> ack ShaneM
14:58:11 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about native implementation
14:58:38 <shepazu> q+
14:58:47 <manu> ack ShaneM
14:58:54 <manu> ack shepazu
14:59:04 <AdrianHB> shanem: when you say native do you mean native code on the device or must it be build into the platform from the platform vendor
14:59:49 <AdrianHB> shepazu: by native, we mean something other than interpreted javascript within the browser
15:00:26 <AdrianHB> manu: the language is getting around this being acheived only through polyfills.
15:00:37 <AdrianHB> ... thats the top of the hour
15:00:49 <dezell> q+
15:01:27 <manu> ack dezell
15:01:27 <AdrianHB> shepazu: we could consider any number of apps as native. the credibility of the app is also considered. The deployment numbers of the implementation is important
15:01:49 <AdrianHB> dezell: do we need to continue this discussion on Monday
15:02:12 <AdrianHB> manu: 1 item left, will take a few minutes
15:02:53 <AdrianHB> dezell: do we need time for agenda development for the IG on Monday
15:03:16 <AdrianHB> shepazu: yes lets set some time aside
15:04:04 <AdrianHB> manu: please all note that the licensing has changed in section 9. we are using the very permissive W3C licensing. Be aware that the WG deliverables will be under a very permissive license
15:04:06 <ShaneM> its very similar to the X Window System license.
15:04:24 <AdrianHB> ... any strong objections to the changes covered today?
15:05:38 <manu> PROPOSAL: Suggest that the new Web Payments WG Charter with the changes discussed today be sent to the Web Payments IG for approval.
15:06:03 <Laurent_> +1
15:06:04 <manu> +1
15:06:05 <DJackson> +1
15:06:05 <AdrianHB> +1
15:06:10 <dezell> +1
15:06:49 <manu> RESOLVED: Suggest that the new Web Payments WG Charter with the changes discussed today be sent to the Web Payments IG for approval.
15:06:50 <kketels> +1
15:07:17 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-wpay-minutes.html manu
15:07:54 <manu> Changes suggested by the group:
15:07:57 <manu> 1. Remove last 'standardize'
15:07:57 <manu> 2. Link payment phases to IG use cases document for context
15:07:57 <manu> 3.Change "with the user agent" to "through the user agent"
15:07:57 <manu> 4. Make disctinction between a user agent and a service - Relation to  Digital Wallets
15:07:58 <manu> 5. "mobile device's user agent." -> "user agents"
15:08:01 <manu> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:08:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-wpay-minutes.html manu
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