14:04:35 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:04:35 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-tt-irc 14:04:37 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:04:37 Zakim has joined #tt 14:04:39 Zakim, this will be TTML 14:04:39 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 14:04:40 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:04:40 Date: 08 October 2015 14:04:43 chair: nigel 14:04:45 scribe: nigel 14:04:53 Regrets: Andreas, Frans, Mike 14:05:37 Present: nigel, pal, tmichel 14:06:35 I am connected but without any sound. 14:06:43 I will rejoin webex 14:06:52 Topic: This Meeting 14:07:19 nigel: Most of this meeting will be dedicated to closing IMSC 1 pending review issues 14:07:26 nigel: AOB? 14:07:51 nigel: Mike has asked to postpone the incoming liaison from ATSC issue. 14:08:09 pal: There's also the topic of profile designators - it would be good to talk about it. 14:08:15 nigel: Great, that's added. 14:09:10 Topic: Action Items 14:09:14 Action-421? 14:09:14 Action-421 -- Nigel Megitt to Check with ttml player manufacturers if they're happy to be listed on our site. -- due 2015-09-24 -- OPEN 14:09:14 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/421 14:09:49 nigel: I did contact the manufacturer we discussed and they said they'd check but haven't yet confirmed. 14:10:14 nigel: Do we have an implementations page? 14:10:26 tmichel: I don't think we have one yet but I'd like to start one. I think we should have a page 14:10:36 ... per technology - one for TTML, one for WebVTT etc. 14:10:51 pal: We have a page for that - remember the contribution from the Web & TV IG? 14:10:56 nigel: Oh yes, I remember now. 14:11:17 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/ 14:11:48 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/EffortsAndSpecifications is a better URL to use 14:12:20 It's linked from https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText under Timed Text Efforts and Specifications 14:12:40 nigel: I guess we could add it to the group home page too - we probably should tidy up the 14:12:57 ... group page vs wiki home page discrepancy. Having both isn't especially helpful. 14:13:32 tmichel: In former times we had the CVS hosted home page which was hard to edit. Now 14:13:44 ... the wiki is simpler for people to add information to. Everyone should be able to add their 14:13:48 ... own product if they want to. 14:14:27 nigel: Is it worth an action to redirect from the home page to the wiki? 14:14:41 tmichel: I'll look into that. There's some information like how to join on the home page. 14:14:52 nigel: Yes. we'd have to migrate the key information. 14:15:01 tmichel: I'll look into it and propose something. 14:15:19 Action: tmichel Look into merging the group home page and the wiki home page and propose something 14:15:19 Created ACTION-430 - Look into merging the group home page and the wiki home page and propose something [on Thierry Michel - due 2015-10-15]. 14:15:49 Topic: TPAC 2015 14:16:07 nigel: Netflix has just joined the WG and would like to spend some agenda time on the Thursday 14:16:15 ... presenting on their open source TTML2 implementation work. 14:16:47 nigel: I'll add that to the topics/agenda page on the wiki. 14:17:05 tmichel: While we're talking about new participants, SImon from Opera joined today replacing Philip. 14:17:14 ... Simon is the new editor of the WebVTT spec. 14:17:30 Topic: IMSC stuff... 14:17:59 action-425? 14:17:59 action-425 -- Thierry Michel to Send a prompt/thank you to the potential test result contributors for imsc. -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN 14:17:59 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/425 14:18:28 pal: I've not heard back and am still chasing, so that's still open. No update despite best efforts. 14:18:44 Topic: Profiles registry 14:19:35 pal: Related to Cyril's email earlier today, which came out of this topic, I think from an 14:19:50 ... implementation standpoint he wants users to be able to signal clearly in a TTML document 14:20:05 ... what profiles a document conforms to. In IMSC 1 right now there's a 'MAY user ttp:profile' 14:20:16 ... statement but that's it. Maybe we can add more to IMSC 1 to encourage people to label 14:20:34 ... their documents. The challenge is, as we discussed before, EBU-TT-D forbids ttp:profile. 14:20:56 ... And ttp:profile supports only one profile. So if a document conforms to both EBU-TT-D and 14:21:09 ... IMSC 1 then you should not use ttp:profile but you should use ebuttm:conformsToStandard 14:21:21 ... and list both. If the document is not EBU-TT-D conformant it probably isn't a bad idea to 14:21:40 ... use ttp:profile and also include ebuttm:conformsToStandard so I'm thinking of adding 14:22:00 ... a recommendation to IMSC 1 along those lines. 14:22:16 nigel: I can see the logic to that, yes. It makes sense I think. 14:22:24 pal: I'd like to be responsive to the request. 14:22:38 nigel: I agree - there's a use case we haven't spent a lot of time considering that is obviously 14:22:56 ... important. I'd like Andreas's and Frans's input on this specific proposal too, but on the 14:23:04 ... surface I think it makes a lot of sense. 14:23:45 nigel: You can recommend using the URI designators. 14:23:58 pal: That would definitely be the recommendation! 14:24:15 ... From a tools perspective it would certainly help tools to determine the document's profile. 14:25:11 nigel: We just need to be careful that ebuttm:conformsToStandard is indicating document 14:25:51 ... conformance in other words the equivalent to TTML2's ttp:contentProfiles attribute. 14:26:13 ... Whereas ttp:profile indicates a processor profile, so we shouldn't mix the messages there. 14:27:43 pal: I don't know why we hadn't collectively thought about this before. I think it works in exactly the right way. 14:28:26 nigel: I can see how this would work really well - if an IMSC 1 processor is needed then it's on 14:29:19 ... the ttp:profile attribute and if not, because an EBU-TT-D processor is okay, then it would be 14:29:22 ... omitted. 14:29:36 pal: I think we can file an issue for this, especially given Glenn's email just now proposing that 14:29:55 ... IMSC 1 includes a 'should include ttp:profile attribute' statement, then implement and review 14:29:57 ... next week. 14:30:14 pal: [filing issue right now] 14:32:06 issue-448? 14:32:06 issue-448 -- Add recommendation for ttp:profile and ebuttm:conformsToStandard -- raised 14:32:06 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/448 14:32:11 reopen issue-448 14:32:11 Re-opened issue-448. 14:32:21 pal: I'm going to reply to the thread too. 14:33:25 nigel: I think it's worth pinging back to EBU to check if they might reopen the discussion on 14:33:34 ... whether or not to permit ttp:profile on EBU-TT-D documents. 14:34:53 nigel: Of course if you have a stream of EBU-TT-D documents e.g. in DASH then this is likely 14:35:01 ... to be redundantly repeated data. 14:35:16 pal: Of course the packager could strip it out if it knows the data won't be needed downstream. 14:36:08 nigel: We may be putting packagers in an uncomfortable situation of needing to modify the 14:36:14 ... samples they're given to wrap up. 14:36:32 pal: True - we're talking about a few bytes though and it's tiny in comparison with e.g. HTTP headers. 14:36:59 Topic: Issues 14:38:11 nigel: Let's go through Pending Reviews... 14:38:13 issue-404? 14:38:13 issue-404 -- Where is #image feature defined? -- pending review 14:38:13 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/404 14:38:32 pal: I think this is unambiguous, well specified and can be closed. 14:38:39 nigel: +1 14:38:41 close issue-404 14:38:41 Closed issue-404. 14:38:51 issue-405? 14:38:51 issue-405 -- why is #nested-span prohibited on image profile? -- pending review 14:38:51 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/405 14:39:17 nigel: This isn't even a proposal to change the spec. It's a question with an answer. 14:39:32 pal: I think Glenn would have responded if he disagreed. 14:39:38 close issue-405 14:39:38 Closed issue-405. 14:39:48 issue-406? 14:39:48 issue-406 -- #lineBreak-uax14 is never 'used' by a document? -- pending review 14:39:48 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/406 14:41:09 pal: uax14 is mandated for processors in the text profile and stated as not applicable to document instances. 14:41:21 ... The image profile is silent about it. 14:41:30 nigel: Do we permit the profile features to be listed in the document? 14:41:54 pal: We do. The presence of the profile designator in the document requires that the processor 14:42:14 ... implements uax14. What the spec currently says is the document constraints. The uax14 14:42:23 ... feature is not applicable to constraints on the document. 14:43:23 nigel: There's a niche issue for the text profile: if the profile features are included then it would 14:43:41 ... be an error to state that the #linebreak-uax14 feature is a 'shall not use'. 14:45:02 ... That would create a situation where an IMSC 1 text profile conformant processor should 14:45:50 ... reject an IMSC 1 text profile conformant document that includes this profile feature as 14:45:54 ... 'shall not use'. 14:46:12 pal: This is a strange and theoretical case, that applies only to the uax14 feature. 14:47:05 nigel: We could add a statement that if profile features are included within a document then 14:47:30 ... they shall not conflict with the processor conformance rules for IMSC 1. 14:47:48 Action: nigel File issue re profile feature inclusion in IMSC 1 documents 14:47:48 Created ACTION-431 - File issue re profile feature inclusion in imsc 1 documents [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-10-15]. 14:48:03 pal: We could add that to the profile section for document conformance. 14:48:52 pal: Going back to issue-406, Glenn suggested to require the feature. Shall we start the 2 week review clock on this today? 14:48:56 nigel: yes, let's do that. 14:49:10 issue-408? 14:49:10 issue-408 -- Initial value of color -- pending review 14:49:10 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/408 14:51:11 close issue-408 14:51:11 Closed issue-408. 14:51:41 issue-409? 14:51:41 issue-409 -- Font family of default means monospaceSerif -- pending review 14:51:41 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/409 14:52:22 pal: IMSC 1 defines what it means for "default" fontFamily, i.e. what a processor shall do when 14:52:38 ... the fontFamily is set to "default". Glenn points out that this isn't always the right thing to do. 14:53:01 ... My response to that is that authors should not rely on default. TTML1 doesn't prohibit 14:53:14 ... implementations from mapping the default font to a known one. 14:55:56 nigel: I'm a bit nervous here - Glenn hasn't proposed a solution, and I don't know why. 14:56:13 ... For example we could include a table mapping language to default font map or reference 14:56:17 ... one in e.g. CLDR. 14:57:20 pal: Document authors can make their choice though if default won't work for them. 14:57:40 nigel: My nervousness here is that we're making a language market-specific value for default, 14:57:48 ... which could make use of default less useful. 14:58:08 nigel: However Glenn knows most about this from those here and he hasn't picked it up. 14:58:32 pal: We should close this on the basis of no response in over 1 month. It can be reopened if someone is unhappy. 14:58:40 close issue-409 14:58:40 Closed issue-409. 14:58:50 issue-410? 14:58:50 issue-410 -- Constraints on #linePadding and #multiRowAlign -- pending review 14:58:50 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/410 15:01:59 nigel: The problem with SHALL NOT here suggests a syntactic conformance requirement whereas 15:02:32 ... what you mean is that if the attributes are present then they shall be ignored by implementations. 15:03:33 pal: We don't have Glenn's view on this so it would be uncool if he doesn't agree. 15:05:51 ... Don't forget the problem arose in EBU-TT-D. 15:06:06 nigel: The new EBU-TT Part 1 v1.1 might get us out of that problem - it defines the features 15:07:11 ... and states that they may be used in EBU-TT-D, and fixes the gaps from the original definition. 15:07:52 Action: nigel Nigel, pal, andreas and frans to hook up re changing IMSC 1 EBU-TT feature references to point to tech3350 v1.1 15:07:52 Created ACTION-432 - Nigel, pal, andreas and frans to hook up re changing imsc 1 ebu-tt feature references to point to tech3350 v1.1 [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-10-15]. 15:09:27 issue-410: [meeting 2015-10-08] See also Action-432 - it may be possible to avoid the problem by referencing tech3350 v1.1. 15:09:27 Notes added to issue-410 Constraints on #linePadding and #multiRowAlign. 15:09:59 nigel: We're out of time so I'll adjourn now. 15:10:14 pal: Maybe we could do 2 hours next week to get through the remaining issues ahead of TPAC? 15:10:35 nigel: That's fine for me. 15:10:57 pal: I'd like to have gone through all of them - there's one that may need TPAC discussion. 15:11:10 ... Glenn brought up an excellent question about the HRM, in relation to Arabic, where the 15:11:25 ... mapping between code point and glyph is in the majority of cases is not 1:1 and the shape 15:11:39 ... depends on the context. That really messes up the glyph buffer. I'm researching it. 15:12:10 ... The glyph buffer was put in to support e.g. 608, 708 and Teletext. Hopefully we'll have closed all the others. 15:14:15 nigel: Thanks both. [meeting adjourned] 15:14:20 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:14:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:15:32 s/I am connected but without any sound./ 15:15:39 s/I will rejoin webex/ 15:19:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:19:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:20:20 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:20:22 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:20:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:23:16 Zakim has left #tt