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16:33:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-aria-irc
16:33:11 <fesch> aria
16:33:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:33:14 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:33:14 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:33:15 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:33:15 <trackbot> Date: 08 October 2015
16:33:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:33:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:33:54 <fesch> 640 582 571
16:33:57 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:34:01 <fesch> password aria
16:35:11 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:35:27 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:36:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:37:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Oct/0024.html
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16:38:39 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuammer
16:38:58 <fesch> scribe: fesch
16:39:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:39:22 <clown> present- Joseph_Scheuammer
16:39:26 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
16:39:28 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:39:55 <clown> action-1361
16:39:55 <trackbot> action-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
16:39:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
16:41:19 <fesch> rs: worried about mappings and coordinating with HTML and SVG...
16:41:43 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group
16:41:54 <fesch> rs: a div maps to a group
16:42:49 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-div
16:42:52 <fesch> mck: this has consequence for AT as they reveal group, there are some references to group in the descriptions  and may need editing
16:43:18 <fesch> rs: in different APIs may map to different things
16:43:55 <fesch> mk: what is happening in voiceover and JAWS, elements with role group are being surfaced by the AT
16:44:10 <fesch> mk: I wouldn't want every div to be surfaced
16:44:51 <fesch> lw: list shows up but as group not the list items
16:45:05 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listitem
16:45:27 <clown> core-aam for axapi says "group" for role listitem
16:45:41 <fesch> mk: should there be something in the spec if div maps to group,  should there be something that says groups should not be exposed?
16:45:51 <clown> role list is mapped to AXList
16:46:26 <fesch> mk: in the spec it says label by content
16:46:31 <fesch> rs: that is going to change
16:46:39 <fesch> mk: to label by author?
16:46:43 <fesch> rs: yes
16:46:57 <fesch> js: label not required
16:47:09 <fesch> rs: but if you want a label, then you have to add it
16:47:35 <fesch> jn: then it is completely broken, if they only report the first child item...
16:48:04 <fesch> rs: reiterates discussion from a few meetings ago
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16:48:23 <fesch> mk: now it is confusing
16:48:40 <fesch> mk: it seems crazy to override the content...
16:49:02 <fesch> rs: content isn't used
16:49:31 <fesch> lw: so does the author need to add a label through another means?
16:49:44 <fesch> rs: no you can go directly to the content
16:49:52 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#listitem
16:50:28 <fesch> mk: question on whether group will change and whether we need to change application role text
16:50:39 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-div
16:51:01 <fesch> mk: we were getting a role group, but there would need to be a change to tell AT not to expose groups without a label
16:51:19 <fesch> rs: what happens if you have a panel?
16:51:51 <fesch> jd: orca will care about a panel without a name, but won't announce the panel
16:52:13 <clown> fwiw, on ATK, group is mapped to panel, and div is mapped to section.
16:52:44 <fesch> jd: as long as it doesn't have a name, orca can filter that out...
16:53:55 <fesch> mk: section is a region only if it has a label,  so same for div
16:54:24 <fesch> mk: so if an author needs a div announced they have to have a label
16:54:27 <fesch> rs: yes
16:54:39 <fesch> action-1708
16:54:39 <trackbot> action-1708 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Create proposed text for a new figure role to joanie to put in a brancth for review -- due 2015-09-03 -- OPEN
16:54:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1708
16:54:45 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/figure/aria/aria.html#figure
16:54:46 <fesch> action-1709
16:54:46 <trackbot> action-1709 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Get with steve faulkner to discuss the html figure element mapping to role figure -- due 2015-09-03 -- OPEN
16:54:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1709
16:54:46 <clown> action-1708?
16:54:47 <trackbot> action-1708 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Create proposed text for a new figure role to joanie to put in a brancth for review -- due 2015-09-03 -- OPEN
16:54:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1708
16:54:48 <richardschwerdtfeger>             https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Oct/0023.html
16:55:13 <clown> \o/
16:55:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> :-P
16:55:29 <fesch> jd: did separate commits for your and Joseph's commits...
16:55:49 <fesch> jd: then did editorial stuff ...
16:56:12 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/figure/aria/aria.html#figure
16:56:45 <fesch> jd: combo of Rich, Joseph and Joanie langugage
16:58:44 <fesch> rs: where it gets confusing is how it is related landmark.
16:58:57 <clown> "A section of content that is easily perceivable regardless of its position in the layout, that supports a list of figures"
16:59:02 <clown> ?
16:59:09 <fesch> rs: so it is like a landmark in that it should be easily found in a list
16:59:38 <fesch> jd: is that the only difference?
16:59:44 <fesch> rs: yes
17:00:56 <fesch> js: I was trying to say how it was like a landmark, without using the word landmark.
17:01:56 <fesch> rs: A section of content that is easily perceivable regardless of its position in the layout. doesn't say it is a figure. very generic.
17:02:07 <fesch> mk> that is very generic...
17:03:20 <fesch> a percievable section of content that usually contains a graphical document...
17:03:44 <fesch> mk: term graphical document is unual
17:04:34 <fesch> rs: graphical document will come out of the SVG semantics
17:05:00 <fesch> mk: I don't think we should use it unless it
17:05:02 <fesch> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/graphics.html
17:05:07 <clown> "A perceivable section of content that typicallly contains graphics, images, code snippets or example text."
17:05:53 <fesch> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/graphics.html#role_definitions
17:06:14 <joanie> I just removed the references to landmark and fixed the table. I am still waiting for consensus on the short definition. But those watching live can refresh.
17:06:20 <fesch> look at graphics-doc
17:06:52 <mck> I propose A  perceivable section of content that typically contains a graphical document, image, code snippets, or example text.
17:07:23 <fesch> js: I think you want to make document point to document role
17:08:36 <clown> "A figure can contain a <a>graphical document</a> …"
17:09:27 <fesch> lw: agree to link whole phrase to WAI-ARIA Graphics Module
17:09:31 <clown> where the <a> has href="'http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/graphics.html#graphics-doc"
17:10:06 <fesch> rs: like proposal Joseph had as we can't bind them together... can't guarantee that they will be done at the same time
17:11:10 <fesch> rs: better to make a glossary term, will create action ...
17:11:15 <mck> A  perceivable section of content that typically contains a graphical document, image, code snippets, or example text.
17:11:40 <clown> joanie, right,  and the href will be to the glossary entry once that is written.
17:11:53 <fesch> mk:: I like what I just pasted in...
17:12:42 <fesch> mk: the first sentence makes them distinct from different roles
17:15:13 <fesch> real time editing...
17:20:16 <fesch> real time editing
17:23:58 <joanie> q+
17:24:26 <joanie> q-
17:24:30 <fesch> lw: are we scoping down to the img role?
17:24:40 <fesch> js: because we want to contrast with the img role.
17:24:58 <joanie> q+
17:26:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joanie
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17:32:48 <MichielBijl> present+ Michiel_Bijl
17:33:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> A perceivable section of content that typically contains a graphical document, images, code snippets, or example text.
17:33:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> A figure has parts that may be navigable in some instances.
17:33:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> Authors should provide a reference to the figure from the main text, but the figure need not be displayed at the same location as the referencing element.
17:33:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> A figure may have an associated description representing a caption and may have an associated label.
17:33:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> Assistive technologies should enable users to quickly navigate to figures. Mainstream user agents may enable users to quickly navigate to figures.
17:39:04 <clown> A figure MAY have an associated description representing a caption and MAY have an associated label.
17:39:37 <clown> Does this imply that aria-describedby should be used for the caption? This, at least, is how I construe the above statement.
17:40:54 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Oct/0025.html
17:44:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> Authors should use aria-describedby on an alertdialog to reference the alert message element in the dialog. If they do not, an assistive technology can resort to its internal recovery mechanism to determine the contents of the alert message.
17:44:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> Authors MAY use aria-describedby on a figure to reference a caption.
17:46:33 <fesch> mk: are we adding a caption role or not?
17:46:49 <fesch> js: I think no caption
17:47:45 <fesch> fe: more real time wordsmithing...
17:48:10 <fesch> rs: we have spent too much time wordsmithing...
17:48:46 <clown> action:  fesch to create a definition of "graphical document" for the glossarry.
17:48:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1733 - Create a definition of "graphical document" for the glossarry. [on Fred Esch - due 2015-10-15].
17:48:52 <clown> action-1733?
17:48:52 <trackbot> action-1733 -- Fred Esch to Create a definition of "graphical document" for the glossarry. -- due 2015-10-15 -- OPEN
17:48:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1733
17:50:23 <fesch> action: Rich to get back to Jason White on comment
17:50:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1734 - Get back to jason white on comment [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-10-15].
17:50:43 <clown> action-1708
17:50:43 <trackbot> action-1708 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Create proposed text for a new figure role to joanie to put in a brancth for review -- due 2015-09-03 -- OPEN
17:50:43 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1708
17:50:51 <fesch> RESOLUTION:  action -1708 done
17:51:03 <fesch> action-1709
17:51:03 <trackbot> action-1709 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Get with steve faulkner to discuss the html figure element mapping to role figure -- due 2015-09-03 -- OPEN
17:51:03 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1709
17:51:22 <fesch> RESOLUTION: action 1709 complete
17:51:29 <fesch> zakim, next item
17:51:29 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
17:52:33 <fesch> action-1679
17:52:33 <trackbot> action-1679 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
17:52:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1679
17:52:36 <mck> have to sign off
17:52:50 <fesch> rs: do we need to do this now?
17:53:44 <joanie> +1
17:53:57 <joanie> it's an attribute
17:54:00 <fesch> rs: do we need a primary buttion?
17:54:12 <fesch> rs: do we need a role or attribute?
17:54:21 <fesch> several: attribute!
17:54:45 <fesch> Topic: primary button
17:55:23 <fesch> jn: we have the concept, especially on wizards where the next button is the default...
17:56:02 <fesch> rs: this like additional semantics, COGA people are doing additional semantics, - this falls into this category
17:56:35 <fesch> rs: dpub has special roles for links.... I would like to have that be a destination...
17:56:49 <fesch> rs: like anchors
17:57:25 <fesch> lw: if the primary button does something... why do you need to navigate directly to the primary button?
17:58:08 <fesch> lw: this is something that will only take one or two buttons to do
17:58:44 <fesch> rs: it isn't necessarily about screen readers.... for COGA it is about style too...
17:58:59 <fesch> rs: on the mac does it look the same way?
17:59:02 <jamesn> q+
18:00:05 <fesch> jn: if we are showing this, then the UI designer is doing this
18:00:57 <fesch> lw: we have this covered
18:01:12 <fesch> jn: we have it covered by using the wrong element for things...
18:01:12 <joanie> I agree with James too.
18:01:44 <fesch> rrs,agent make minutes
18:01:53 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:01:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
18:02:26 <fesch> rrsagent, draft minutes
18:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/08-aria-minutes.html fesch
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