14:52:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
14:52:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/10/07-annotation-irc
14:52:23 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #annotation
14:53:05 <azaroth> azaroth has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Oct/0007.html
14:54:44 <ivan> trackbot, start telcon
14:54:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:54:48 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
14:54:48 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:54:49 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:54:49 <trackbot> Date: 07 October 2015
14:54:52 <fjh> fjh has joined #annotation
14:54:57 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:54:57 <Zakim> I have been told this is
14:56:07 <ivan> zakim, this is WebEx access code 645 413 954, passwd annotation, web link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=me422bef2c6690852d7d9a2cf39f591b8
14:56:07 <Zakim> got it, ivan
14:56:31 <fjh> trackbot, start telecon
14:56:33 <ivan> zakim, save this conference description
14:56:33 <Zakim> this conference description has been saved, ivan
14:56:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:56:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
14:56:35 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:56:36 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:56:36 <trackbot> Date: 07 October 2015
14:56:54 <fjh> zakim, this is WebEx access code 645 413 954, passwd annotation, web link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=me422bef2c6690852d7d9a2cf39f591b8
14:56:54 <Zakim> got it, fjh
14:56:56 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Oct/0007.html
14:57:26 <ivan> zakim, code?
14:57:26 <Zakim> I have been told this is WebEx access code 645 413 954, passwd annotation, web link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=me422bef2c6690852d7d9a2cf39f591b8
14:58:44 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
14:58:47 <fjh> Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
14:58:54 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
14:59:03 <ivan> present+ Ivan_Herman
14:59:15 <azaroth> Regrets+ Ray_Denenberg
14:59:35 <Jacob> Jacob has joined #annotation
15:00:04 <Jacob> Present+ Jacob_Jett
15:00:20 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:00:20 <Zakim> Present: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson, Ivan_Herman, Jacob_Jett
15:00:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see Jacob, tbdinesh, fjh, Zakim, RRSAgent, azaroth, ivan, KevinMarks, nickstenn, tessierashpool_, bigbluehat, shepazu, rhiaro_, dwhly, stain, oshepherd, rhiaro, trackbot
15:00:23 <shepazu> present+ shepazu
15:01:18 <TimCole> TimCole has joined #annotation
15:03:30 <ivan> https://www.w3.org/Member/Mail
15:03:43 <TimCole> Present+ Tim_Cole
15:03:58 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
15:05:01 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:05:04 <ivan> scribenick: bjdmeest
15:05:18 <bigbluehat> Present+ Benjamin_Young
15:05:26 <fjh> Topic: Agenda Review, Scribe Selection, Announcements
15:05:41 <fjh> central script repository  - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Oct/0001.html (Doug)
15:05:41 <fjh> webex issues on chrome for mac https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Sep/0228.html
15:05:58 <fjh> Topic: Minutes Approval
15:06:03 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 30 September approved, http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-annotation-minutes.html
15:06:09 <bjdmeest> RESOLUTION: Minutes from 30 September approved, http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-annotation-minutes.html
15:06:17 <fjh> Topic: Model - Range of  Bodies and Target
15:06:19 <ivan> Chair: fjh
15:06:28 <fjh> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd/RequireSpecificResource.html
15:06:29 <fjh> discussed on last call, http://www.w3.org/2015/09/30-annotation-minutes.html#item05
15:06:31 <tbdinesh> Present+ TB_Dinesh
15:07:09 <bjdmeest> TimCole: There were 3 things
15:08:01 <bjdmeest> ... 1: consensus: allow embedded content in ???Resource
15:08:01 <azaroth> Regrets+ Davis_Salisbury
15:08:09 <shepazu> q+
15:08:22 <bjdmeest> ... 3: multiplicity: where do roles come in multiplicity
15:08:29 <fjh> s/???/Specific/
15:08:35 <bjdmeest> ... defer 3
15:08:51 <Jacob> That's my recollection too. Multiplicity is going to be a complex topic so best to defer until after the next release.
15:08:54 <fjh> Second was need for subclass for embedded content
15:09:00 <fjh> q?
15:09:06 <PaoloCiccarese> PaoloCiccarese has joined #annotation
15:09:15 <PaoloCiccarese> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
15:09:58 <bjdmeest> azaroth: subclass of embedded content...
15:10:13 <bjdmeest> embedded content is for included resources that are not necessarily body or target
15:10:20 <bjdmeest> ... e.g. inline svg or css
15:10:27 <bjdmeest> ... those resources shouldn't have roles
15:10:39 <fjh> q+
15:11:02 <bjdmeest> ... subclass TextualBody could have 1. role associated with it but not embeddedContent
15:11:21 <bjdmeest> ... 2. you have a nicer class when you don't want to embed svg or css
15:11:22 <fjh> ack shepazu
15:11:24 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
15:12:31 <bjdmeest> shepazu: I don't think this or any issue should stop us from publishing a FPWD
15:12:36 <bjdmeest> ... they don't have to be perfect
15:12:42 <ivan> s/FPWD/WD/
15:12:53 <ivan> +1 to Doug
15:13:01 <bjdmeest> ... as long as we have general consensus that the spec has improved
15:13:01 <fjh> +1 to publishing early and often
15:13:01 <azaroth> Also +1
15:13:54 <bjdmeest> ... my opinion now: I think consistency, a single clear way, trumps simplicity for simple things
15:14:44 <bjdmeest> ... one level of hierarchy is not a big price to pay
15:15:04 <bjdmeest> ... that added complexity also adds options
15:15:22 <bjdmeest> ... consistency is better for understanding, writing parsers, etc.
15:15:23 <azaroth> +1 to a consistent model
15:15:45 <fjh> q?
15:15:47 <Jacob> +1 for consistency
15:15:50 <fjh> ack fjh
15:16:47 <bjdmeest> fjh: proposal 1 introduces complexities, last weeks poll there was consensus for proposal 2
15:16:57 <PaoloCiccarese> q-
15:17:07 <shepazu> q+ for point of order
15:17:40 <ivan> q+
15:17:44 <bjdmeest> azaroth: we might not be able to break this apart, there are consequences
15:18:02 <bjdmeest> ... example: if SpecificResource is required
15:18:09 <fjh> q?
15:18:14 <bjdmeest> ... then it should be introduced much earlier
15:18:48 <bjdmeest> ... so +1 to keeping current draft
15:19:05 <bjdmeest> ... trade-offs of consistency vs flexibility
15:19:41 <bjdmeest> fjh: we should get the draft published
15:19:42 <fjh> ack shepazu
15:19:42 <Zakim> shepazu, you wanted to discuss point of order
15:19:44 <TimCole> +1 to publish using best guess now
15:21:06 <davis_salisbury> davis_salisbury has joined #annotation
15:21:23 <fjh> q?
15:21:23 <davis_salisbury> present+ davis_salisbury
15:21:25 <fjh> ack ivan
15:21:32 <TimCole> q+
15:23:03 <bjdmeest> ivan: we have more or less an agreement, this is the direction we take now, let rob and paolo finish the document, discussions can happen once the document is more stable
15:23:26 <Jacob> +1 to what Ivan is suggesting
15:23:31 <bjdmeest> ... cfc is not necessary
15:23:52 <fjh> +1 to not requiring CfC for publication ( was not suggesting that) also agree we need clarity on decisions
15:24:10 <bjdmeest> ... in practice, we can just go on and publish
15:24:12 <azaroth> q?
15:24:21 <azaroth> ack TimCole
15:24:47 <bjdmeest> TimCole: agree with Ivan, cfc should come after next publication, if needed
15:25:26 <bjdmeest> ... there is a trade-off: more classes to avoid hierarchy vs. patterns to be more rigid about hierarchy
15:25:42 <bjdmeest> ... we have to allow literaltext as bodies, and have roles on that
15:26:00 <bjdmeest> ... a next class for that seems, to me, too much
15:26:02 <Jacob> If we didn't have another class then I'd just want to shoehorn it in as a sub-class of specific resource so...
15:26:29 <azaroth> q+ to note multiplicity
15:26:31 <bjdmeest> ... so let's take best guess on multiplicity, and see what happens when implementations catch up
15:26:33 <azaroth> ack azaroth
15:26:33 <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to note multiplicity
15:26:56 <bjdmeest> azaroth: cultural heritage community has implemented multiplicity
15:27:09 <bjdmeest> ... eg multiple images that depict one object (e.g in a museum)
15:27:12 <bjdmeest> ... they use choice
15:27:51 <shepazu> (I tend to think that some sort of choice mechanism is pretty important, though I fear the complexity of a general solution)
15:27:53 <bjdmeest> ... depending on location, quality of picture, etc, users can choose
15:28:01 <shepazu> q+
15:28:25 <azaroth> ack shepazu
15:28:36 <bjdmeest> ... Composite and List, not really found (except maybe List in DPUB)
15:28:58 <Jacob> Ordering is verbose in RDF
15:29:13 <Jacob> and so fairly tedious.
15:29:15 <Suzan_Uskudarli> Suzan_Uskudarli has joined #annotation
15:29:23 <ivan> (well verbose and ugly, although conceptually simple)
15:29:41 <bjdmeest> shepazu: I think ordering is difficult in RDF, a sequence is very important for some (e.g. priority, selectors), not that important for others
15:30:20 <bjdmeest> ... construct specific for use case could be more simple
15:30:39 <azaroth> q?
15:30:41 <davis_salisbury> +1
15:30:49 <bjdmeest> azaroth: more focussed, the better, so use-case driven is good
15:30:59 <bjdmeest> ... to complete the implementations (cfr charter)
15:31:31 <bjdmeest> azaroth: we'll continue with the WD as it stands, multiplicity could be handled at TPAC
15:31:47 <bjdmeest> Topic: RangeFinder
15:31:56 <fjh> s/RangeFinder/FindText/
15:32:24 <bjdmeest> shepazu: I put something together, fit for a FPWD
15:32:41 <fjh> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Oct/0017.html
15:32:52 <bjdmeest> ... we got technical feedback from WebApps (great!)
15:32:52 <fjh> http://w3c.github.io/findtext/
15:33:31 <bjdmeest> ... feedback1: what about Shadow DOM (a way do develop custom components, to be reused, e.g., a slider)
15:33:59 <bjdmeest> ... behind the scenes of the slider, a tiny DOM is added underneath the <slider>-element --> shadow DOM
15:34:20 <bjdmeest> ... shadow DOM increases the complexity of the tree, so will have effect on FindText
15:34:35 <bjdmeest> ... no good way to represent ranges in shadow DOM yet
15:35:27 <bjdmeest> ... feedback2: positive feedback from google Japan, connected me with Yandex people
15:36:04 <bjdmeest> ... he pointed out serializing DOM is not only way, 2 other (non-standardized) methods exist
15:37:34 <bjdmeest> ... but it's out there :)
15:37:59 <azaroth> q?
15:38:09 <fjh> q+
15:38:14 <azaroth> ack fjh
15:41:28 <TimCole> q+
15:41:32 <azaroth> ack TimCole
15:41:40 <bjdmeest> azaroth: cfc is out, +1 is encouraged
15:41:59 <bjdmeest> TimCole: what were the other serialization methods?
15:42:14 <bjdmeest> shepazu: textSerializeAPI, which is done under covers
15:42:29 <bjdmeest> ... of browsers
15:42:46 <bjdmeest> ... findText uses hidden - but similar - mechanisms under the hood
15:42:56 <bjdmeest> ... for at least Blink and Gecko browsers
15:43:20 <bjdmeest> TimCole: better strategy is making these hidden mechanisms normative?
15:43:29 <ivan> q+
15:43:47 <bjdmeest> shepazu: if we specifying currently existing mechanisms, it slows down the spec, but speeds up the uptake
15:43:54 <azaroth> +1 to paving cowpaths
15:43:58 <azaroth> ack ivan
15:45:51 <azaroth> q?
15:45:51 <fjh> need 5  min for that
15:46:24 <bjdmeest> Topic: Publication schedule
15:46:34 <bjdmeest> fjh: last possible publication date is 20/10
15:46:48 <bjdmeest> ... we need to do an e-mail, also takes some days
15:47:11 <bjdmeest> ... maybe we need a (short) cfc
15:47:34 <azaroth> ack shepazu
15:47:35 <bjdmeest> ... if we want to publish before TPAC, there is tight timing
15:48:32 <bjdmeest> shepazu: FindText needs formalities (because FPWD), other publications do not
15:48:49 <azaroth> +1 to auto publishing
15:49:16 <fjh> +1 to auto piublishing
15:50:02 <bjdmeest> shepazu: what about: cfc now, whether to publish or not
15:50:05 <Jacob> +1 to no CFC and +1 to publish
15:50:20 <azaroth> Draft: http://azaroth42.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd/index-renamed.html
15:50:46 <bjdmeest> Topic model draft
15:50:55 <bjdmeest> azaroth: up to 4.4
15:51:10 <bjdmeest> ... should be done by tomorrow
15:51:14 <bjdmeest> ... working on protocol next
15:51:28 <fjh> ivan, can you please set up auto WD publishing for model and protocol so Rob can use it?
15:51:38 <bjdmeest> ... we should be easily good to go for a publication next week
15:52:05 <bjdmeest> ... protocol has less text, and significant change is about paging, so that should also go quickly
15:52:27 <bjdmeest> fjh: you can send cfc when you are done with the draft
15:52:43 <bjdmeest> ... cfc until tuesday, publication request for thursday
15:53:17 <bjdmeest> ... about protocol, maybe not that urgent
15:54:01 <bjdmeest> azaroth: maybe we can publish the protocol document by the 15th or 20th
15:54:06 <azaroth> q?
15:54:10 <bjdmeest> Topic: TPAC
15:54:30 <bjdmeest> fjh
15:55:22 <bjdmeest> fjh: joint meetings: social is possible, DPUB request has been sent, WebApps not necessary, TAG is constrained on monday, I18n also sent request
15:55:31 <bjdmeest> ... breakout is possible, if anyone can lead
15:55:43 <bjdmeest> azaroth: I will be there
15:55:55 <bjdmeest> fjh: breakout can be used to reach out to community
15:56:13 <bjdmeest> azaroth: I can lead the breakout, at least for model and protocol
15:56:38 <bjdmeest> ... can FindText also be put in the breakout session?
15:56:58 <bjdmeest> shepazu: I think it is appealing to a larger group of people
15:57:16 <azaroth> ACTION azaroth to set up wiki page for breakout on Annotation
15:57:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Set up wiki page for breakout on annotation [on Robert Sanderson - due 2015-10-14].
15:58:41 <bjdmeest> fjh: exact planning for TPAC is pending, depending on the answers of the other groups
15:59:22 <bjdmeest> Topic: Adjourn
15:59:35 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/07-annotation-minutes.html ivan
15:59:43 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
15:59:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:59:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson, Ivan_Herman, Jacob_Jett, shepazu, Tim_Cole, Ben_De_Meester, Benjamin_Young, TB_Dinesh, Paolo_Ciccarese,
15:59:46 <Zakim> ... davis_salisbury
15:59:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/10/07-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
15:59:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:59:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items