IRC log of tt on 2015-10-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

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13:59:19 [Zakim]
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Zakim, this will be TTML
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I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
13:59:22 [trackbot]
Date: 01 October 2015
14:00:22 [mike]
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14:01:09 [nigel]
Present: nigel
14:01:11 [nigel]
Chair: nigel
14:01:16 [nigel]
Scribe: nigel
14:01:49 [nigel]
Present+ mike
14:02:38 [nigel]
Present+ tmichel
14:02:54 [nigel]
Present+ pal
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Present+ Frans
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14:06:32 [nigel]
Present+ Courtney
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Present+ Andreas
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14:08:18 [pal]
Present+ pal
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14:11:21 [nigel]
Topic: This meeting
14:11:32 [nigel]
Present+ plh
14:11:32 [plh]
present+ plh
14:14:01 [nigel]
nigel: We'll cover TPAC, IMSC, TTML and WebVTT mapping, short profile names registry, WebVTT
14:14:15 [nigel]
nigel: AOB?
14:14:35 [nigel]
mike: Can we cover IANA registration under the profile registry section?
14:14:42 [nigel]
nigel: Yes.
14:15:01 [nigel]
Topic: TPAC 2015
14:16:15 [nigel]
14:17:35 [nigel]
nigel: Opening up so people have the opportunity to raise questions, issues, agenda topic suggestions etc.
14:17:47 [nigel]
group: nothing for now
14:18:04 [nigel]
Topic: IMSC
14:18:11 [nigel]
14:18:11 [trackbot]
action-424 -- Thierry Michel to Download and upload to implementation report page the test render mp4 -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
14:18:11 [trackbot]
14:18:34 [nigel]
tmichel: That's done - it can be closed.
14:18:51 [nigel]
close action-424
14:18:51 [trackbot]
Closed action-424.
14:19:41 [nigel]
14:19:42 [trackbot]
action-425 -- Thierry Michel to Send a prompt/thank you to the potential test result contributors for imsc. -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
14:19:42 [trackbot]
14:20:16 [nigel]
tmichel: I've reminded all the implementors that we pinged and thanked the implementor who sent us the MP4 file.
14:20:35 [nigel]
tmichel: I think pal has a new implementor?
14:20:44 [nigel]
pal: I've asked them for the right contact so as soon as I know I'll let you know.
14:21:06 [nigel]
action-425: [meeting 2015-10-01] leaving open pending a new implementor - pal to tell tmichel when he knows
14:21:06 [trackbot]
Notes added to action-425 Send a prompt/thank you to the potential test result contributors for imsc..
14:21:41 [nigel]
Topic: TTML and WebVTT Mapping Document
14:22:14 [nigel]
tmichel: I think the proposal for the short name is ttml-webvtt-mapping
14:22:33 [nigel]
... It's not so short but its fine by me if everyone's okay with that. We had agreement from David and Nigel proposed it.
14:22:35 [pal]
14:22:57 [nigel]
Courtney: I think it's fine.
14:23:00 [nigel]
Andreas: I think so also.
14:23:21 [nigel]
nigel: I think we've got consensus!
14:23:30 [nigel]
plh: I think that's the best one otherwise it will be hard to remember.
14:23:55 [nigel]
tmichel: Now I need to ask plh to agree to it!
14:24:13 [nigel]
plh: I'm happy to agree but you still need to send an email to the chairs list. Consider it approved.
14:24:19 [nigel]
tmichel: Okay I'll send to you CC chairs.
14:24:23 [nigel]
plh: Thank you
14:24:29 [nigel]
14:24:29 [trackbot]
action-427 -- Nigel Megitt to Write up an issue for webvtt for chapterisation etc. -- due 2015-10-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:24:29 [trackbot]
14:24:36 [nigel]
14:24:36 [trackbot]
issue-447 -- Mapping is only for presentation, i.e. subtitle and captions, and other types of WebVTT document are possible -- raised
14:24:36 [trackbot]
14:24:43 [nigel]
close action-427
14:24:43 [trackbot]
Closed action-427.
14:25:41 [nigel]
nigel: I did this - it's issue-447. Is that okay Courtney and Andreas?
14:26:09 [nigel]
Andreas: I had a quick view on this issue, as with others. For a lot of the mapping issues I
14:26:22 [nigel]
... propose that we postpone the detailed discussion to TPAC where we can have a closer look
14:26:30 [nigel]
... at the issues with time to think about them beforehand.
14:26:41 [nigel]
reopen issue-447
14:26:41 [trackbot]
Re-opened issue-447.
14:26:50 [nigel]
14:26:50 [trackbot]
action-426 -- Thierry Michel to Tmichel to work with courtney to get the ttml webvtt mapping to look right with respec -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
14:26:50 [trackbot]
14:27:09 [nigel]
Courtney: It's perfectly beautiful now!
14:27:13 [nigel]
close action-426
14:27:13 [trackbot]
Closed action-426.
14:27:24 [nigel]
14:27:24 [trackbot]
issue-415 -- TTML2 is confusing -- pending review
14:27:24 [trackbot]
14:28:03 [nigel]
Courtney: We changed the mapping TTML profile name to TVTT to avoid the 2
14:28:51 [nigel]
mike: It's better. The 2 was my main concern. I wonder if people might be confused by the 'TV' in it.
14:29:07 [nigel]
Andreas: I think we should leave it for now and if we find a better name later we can still change to it.
14:29:14 [nigel]
mike: I'm good with this.
14:29:20 [nigel]
close issue-415
14:29:20 [trackbot]
Closed issue-415.
14:30:11 [nigel]
Andreas: I want to thank everyone who has looked at the document and raised feedback.
14:30:25 [nigel]
... I think all the issues are very valuable. I'd encourage everyone to look at the complete
14:30:43 [nigel]
... document before TPAC. The TVTT profile has had a lot of focus but it's only a part of it.
14:31:04 [nigel]
... I think it's really important to look at this as a complete document and then discuss it and
14:31:09 [nigel]
... see the profile as one part of it only.
14:31:24 [nigel]
mike: I didn't file an issue on this but there's been reflector traffic. I remained concerned that
14:31:35 [nigel]
... when we're all done with this mapping activity then the subset that results won't meet
14:31:48 [nigel]
... anyone's needs. I won't raise an issue until we're done. But if the resulting profile doesn't
14:32:06 [nigel]
... for example allow us to create captions that meet FCC needs then it won't get used.
14:32:19 [nigel]
Courtney: Mike, I understand and share your concern but it's hard to address such a high level
14:32:31 [nigel]
... statement. It would be good to have the analysis to show us what's missing.
14:32:45 [nigel]
mike: Absolutely - and that's why I haven't filed an issue.
14:32:58 [nigel]
Courtney: When you talk about the 708 features, there may not be complete support for every
14:33:01 [nigel]
... 708 feature.
14:33:21 [nigel]
mike: IMSC is pretty tight on 708 and I thought WebVTT was too. The burden is on me to
14:33:28 [nigel]
... suggest any issues or raise specific concerns.
14:33:51 [nigel]
Andreas: The comment and pal's on the reflector are very helpful. But the document has more
14:34:03 [nigel]
... as well - the profile is only there to be helpful for the process of conversion. The document
14:34:24 [nigel]
... itself targets all kinds of TTML documents not just one profile. If there are implications then
14:34:39 [nigel]
... we can discuss that at TPAC. At the moment we really thought of all the TTML documents
14:34:50 [nigel]
... that are produced at the moment and how they can be translated into WebVTT. Of course
14:35:04 [nigel]
... it's not the only mapping. We're also looking at the WebVTT to TTML mapping. We should
14:35:10 [nigel]
... keep this in mind when we discuss the issue.
14:35:28 [nigel]
mike: I understand the exercise. It's an important issue and it's good that this work has been done.
14:35:49 [nigel]
... I'd note that IMSC1 and EBU-TT have been getting the most attention, so it's important to
14:35:55 [nigel]
... keep them in mind when we do this exercise.
14:36:10 [nigel]
pal: I understand the engineering process but I'm also trying to anticipate what users might
14:36:29 [nigel]
... see in the document, which could be different. They might naturally try to follow the profile
14:36:43 [nigel]
... for authoring for ease of conversion. There may be options, but I'm not super excited by
14:36:46 [nigel]
... the status quo.
14:36:58 [nigel]
Andreas: I agree there are several options. This is something we should discuss at TPAC.
14:37:13 [nigel]
... One option is to bring the profile closer to an existing one that will be used in practice.
14:37:28 [nigel]
... Another is to highlight that this possibly is not the right starting profile, and you may still
14:37:49 [nigel]
... need to do mapping from e.g. EBU-TT-D and IMSC to this profile.
14:38:02 [nigel]
... What we tried to achieve is to bring TTML document structure as close as possible to WebVTT.
14:38:11 [nigel]
... That is of course much tighter than what is written in EBU-TT-D and IMSC.
14:38:26 [nigel]
pal: Another possibility is that if we find out we're 90-95% there and the remaining 5-10%
14:38:41 [nigel]
... are found to be not relevant we may wish to rethink IMSC 1 or EBU-TT-D.
14:38:43 [nigel]
Andreas: Agreed.
14:39:01 [nigel]
mike: I second what pal said. If we're really close and we can tweak other profiles to bring them
14:39:09 [nigel]
... into alignment then we should bear that in mind.
14:39:30 [nigel]
Courtney: We should continue this at TPAC. The charter deliverable doesn't focus on a particular
14:39:32 [nigel]
... profile.
14:39:48 [nigel]
mike: Sure. And please don't take our concerns as a criticism of the work. It's really important
14:40:04 [nigel]
... and we wouldn't be having this discussion without the work. Let's work towards interoperability.
14:40:20 [nigel]
pal: I second that. If we'd found that TTML and WebVTT could be converted losslessly then
14:40:28 [nigel]
... we wouldn't be having this conversation either.
14:40:33 [nigel]
Courtney: Right.
14:40:48 [nigel]
Andreas: I agree. I think this is a good approach too. We did notice that IMSC is an important
14:41:14 [pal]
14:41:16 [nigel]
... reference. We did discuss that in Las Vegas. At the moment we hope that the TVTT profile
14:41:36 [pal]
14:41:39 [nigel]
... should be a subset of IMSC. As pal and mike both said it's possible to do a bit of tweaking
14:42:00 [nigel]
... to get to alignment. I hope that at TPAC we can turn this into concrete actions.
14:42:22 [nigel]
Topic: Profile short name registry
14:42:34 [nigel]
14:42:34 [trackbot]
action-428 -- Thierry Michel to Check if we can update the ttml iana media registration in a standalone note or if we need to do it in a rec -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
14:42:34 [trackbot]
14:43:16 [nigel]
mike: I can summarise. A number of W3C registrations have been done using WG Notes. About
14:43:32 [nigel]
... half a dozen. Clearly if it's a Rec then you want to follow up. For reasons I don't know some
14:43:45 [nigel]
... groups have used Notes, so W3C can do that. It looks like they are exceptions that need
14:44:05 [nigel]
... Director approval. The action would be to draft a note and push up to the Director.
14:44:21 [nigel]
tmichel: Yes, that's what I understood from plh's email too.
14:44:56 [nigel]
mike: I think that email was pretty clear. So the question is, unless there's an objection, I'll
14:45:20 [nigel]
... draft a note and we'll follow the processes to get into a publishable state.
14:45:30 [nigel]
... There are actually 2 things: the registry itself and the media registration note.
14:45:54 [nigel]
nigel: I don't have a view - I don't see why they shouldn't be in the same note - it may make
14:46:10 [nigel]
... the process easier.
14:47:24 [nigel]
PROPOSAL: Draft a WG Note describing the profile short name registry and updating the IANA media registration, based on what's in the current profile registry wiki page plus the addition of the codec parameter to the existing TTML registration.
14:47:34 [nigel]
nigel: Does that address Cyril's concern about using the codec profile?
14:47:52 [nigel]
mike: Yes, without going into all the details, the RFC is out of date, but we can independently
14:48:05 [nigel]
... proceed here with tidying up, to resolve any public use or adoption. Cyril is concerned
14:49:00 [nigel]
... more globally about non-W3C infrastructure issues. We can solve ours locally.
14:49:32 [nigel]
s/TTML/TTML media type
14:49:54 [nigel]
RESOLUTION: We will draft a WG Note describing the profile short name registry and updating the IANA media registration, based on what's in the current profile registry wiki page plus the addition of the codec parameter to the existing TTML media type registration.
14:50:40 [nigel]
Action: mdolan draft a WG note for the profile short name registry and TTML media type registration
14:50:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-429 - Draft a wg note for the profile short name registry and ttml media type registration [on Mike Dolan - due 2015-10-08].
14:51:20 [nigel]
close action-428
14:51:20 [trackbot]
Closed action-428.
14:51:50 [nigel]
Topic: WebVTT
14:52:45 [nigel]
nigel: I think the question is about the WebVTT editor's draft
14:52:52 [nigel]
Courtney: Which issue?
14:53:06 [nigel]
tmichel: It seems that the editors are not able to publish on W3C.
14:53:17 [nigel]
Courtney: I think this is resolved. Simon Pieters is the new editor. He moved the spec to the
14:53:33 [nigel]
... whatwg repository on github and we asked him to move it back, which I believe he agreed
14:53:39 [nigel]
... to do, though he hasn't done it yet.
14:54:14 [nigel]
tmichel: It would be nice to have Simon call into a meeting.
14:54:23 [nigel]
nigel: I believe he's not a participant in the TTWG.
14:54:30 [nigel]
... Does that cause us any difficulties?
14:54:40 [nigel]
Courtney: We're working on the spec regardless of its location.
14:55:19 [nigel]
nigel: Does it cause us any difficulties having an Editor who is a member of the WG?
14:55:28 [nigel]
tmichel: Not immediately - Opera is a member.
14:56:03 [nigel]
tmichel: So it's Opera who has made the commitment.
14:56:10 [nigel]
14:56:14 [nigel]
14:56:20 [nigel]
14:56:21 [nigel]
14:56:36 [nigel]
plh: The last draft was in 2014. Is it time to update it?
14:56:49 [nigel]
Courtney: I think we need to move more aggressively on this spec. The goal is to get to CR by
14:57:05 [nigel]
... November and PR by March 2016. As part of that I have several action items. I need to update
14:57:24 [nigel]
... the diff against the FPWD, and we're also working through ~80 open issues. We closed 8 of
14:57:28 [nigel]
... them yesterday.
14:57:40 [nigel]
plh: My recommendation is don't wait for all of that to be done before updating the draft.
14:57:53 [nigel]
... I recommend you ask the TTWG to update the WD sooner rather than later - it can be every
14:58:06 [nigel]
... week if you want! I don't know how many changes there have been since the FPWD.
14:58:26 [nigel]
Courtney: That's why I was gathering the diffs.
14:58:42 [nigel]
plh: My other question is related to the repository. So you asked Simon to move it back? To the CVS server?
14:59:06 [nigel]
Courtney: I think they want to use github/w3c a bit like the media stream capture spec.
14:59:14 [nigel]
plh: That would be my recommendation too.
14:59:18 [nigel]
Courtney: Ok.
14:59:25 [nigel]
plh: If you need any help on that please let me know.
14:59:40 [nigel]
Courtney: Eric Carson proposed doing that, and we thought we could do it without assistance.
14:59:43 [nigel]
... I'll check.
15:00:00 [nigel]
plh: You'll probably need me or tmichel to create the github/w3c/XXX repo
15:00:05 [nigel]
Courtney: Thank you
15:00:19 [nigel]
plh: We have tools now to keep track of contributions into our github repositories for patent
15:00:22 [nigel]
... policy reasons.
15:02:15 [nigel]
nigel: We're out of time - I think we've covered everything. Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting]
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s/tmichel: We have tools/plh: We have tools
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