15:05:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
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15:05:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:05:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcls
15:06:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
15:06:01 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
15:06:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
15:06:02 <trackbot> Date: 29 September 2015
15:06:11 <dbooth> topic: Report from last week's CTS Ontology Workshop
15:07:05 <Lloyd> Lloyd has joined #HCLS
15:10:23 <dbooth> http://ncorwiki.buffalo.edu/index.php/CTS_Ontology_Workshop_2015
15:27:34 <dbooth> dbooth: good workshop; made steps in building bridges
15:29:49 <dbooth> lloyd: what do we want to achieve in this bridge building?
15:30:52 <dbooth> dbooth: ideally, get Barry working with us
15:32:55 <dbooth> ... Chris ____ wanted to ensure that the FHIR ont is compatible with BFO
15:33:11 <dbooth> ... I encouraged him to join the calls and help.
15:34:17 <dbooth> s/____/Stoeckert/
15:34:46 <dbooth> Topic: Approval of minutes
15:34:48 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20150922
15:35:16 <dbooth> Minutes of Sep 22 approved!
15:35:46 <dbooth> Topic: Atlanta HL7 face-to-face meeting preparation
15:36:42 <dbooth> Rob: Good to do a brief overview
15:38:15 <dbooth> Paul: Suggest 10 minutes overview
15:40:47 <dbooth> Topic: FHIR ValueSets -- draft by Tony Mallia
15:41:19 <dbooth> Tony: Problems with named classes for coding systems and named classes for concepts
15:41:47 <dbooth> ... An OWL restriction statement is a subclass of OWL class, so everytime we put one in square brackets, we're declaring a class.
15:42:10 <dbooth> ... In the next version i made them named classes.
15:42:51 <dbooth> ... Concerned that we may be negating that approach, because it's more efficient than declaring the same anonymous class multiple times.
15:44:01 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=File:ValueSet_approachesv3.pdf
15:46:42 <dbooth> Tony: Line 97 has a code system represented as a class.
15:49:38 <ericP> CONSTRUCT { ?x a fhircs:allergy
15:49:38 <ericP> -
15:49:38 <ericP> intolerance
15:49:38 <ericP> -
15:49:39 <dbooth> lloyd: CodeSystem should not be a class -- it's not merely the collection of codings.
15:51:33 <dbooth> tony: a restriction is always a class.
15:51:52 <dbooth> lloyd: the problem is line 105: rdfs:subClassOf fhir:CodeSystem .
15:52:28 <dbooth> ... It's defining a set of legal CodingBase instances
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15:55:43 <dbooth> tony: agreed -- line 105 should be rdfs:subClassOf fhir:CodingBase .
15:55:47 <dbooth> lloyd: agreed
15:57:28 <ericP> CONSTRUCT {
15:57:28 <ericP>   ?x a fhircs:allergy-intolerance-status ;
15:57:28 <ericP>      a fhir:CodingBase
15:57:28 <ericP> } WHERE {
15:57:28 <ericP>  owl:onProperty fhir:CodingBase.system [
15:57:30 <ericP>    fhir:value <http://hl7.org/fhir/cs/allergy-intolerance-status>
15:57:33 <ericP>  ]
15:57:35 <ericP> }
15:57:56 <ericP> CONSTRUCT {
15:57:56 <ericP>   ?x a fhircs:allergy-intolerance-status ;
15:57:56 <ericP>      a fhir:CodingBase
15:57:56 <ericP> } WHERE {
15:57:56 <ericP>  ?x fhir:CodingBase.system [
15:57:59 <ericP>    fhir:value <http://hl7.org/fhir/cs/allergy-intolerance-status>
15:58:01 <ericP>  ]
15:58:04 <ericP> }
15:58:49 <ericP> s/<http://hl7.org/fhir/cs/allergy-intolerance-status>/"http://hl7.org/fhir/cs/allergy-intolerance-status"/
15:59:20 <ericP> s|<http://hl7.org/fhir/cs/allergy-intolerance-status>|"http://hl7.org/fhir/cs/allergy-intolerance-status"|
16:00:56 <dbooth> tony: Line 24 uses this allergy-intolerance-status class
16:09:57 <dbooth> dbooth: Reason for representing these all as classes is so that when we express a fhir:Observation for a patient, we can say that that observation is an instance of class allergy-intolerance-status:confirmed, and potentially some other classes too.
16:10:39 <dbooth> lloyd: Nervous about having these as classes, because they are ripe for abuse.  People will think of them as semantic classes and try to do equivalent testing on them.
16:11:28 <dbooth> ... Someone might say that these two codes are equivalent, and say that they are equivalent classes and that will lead to wrong semantics.
16:11:50 <dbooth> ... These classes are not semantic classes, they are just about the strings.
16:13:03 <dbooth> ... Alternative is to be verbose: don't define named classes for things that specify both code system and code.
16:13:17 <dbooth> tony: But that's what SNOMED is doing.
16:13:53 <ericP> CONSTRUCT {
16:13:53 <ericP>   ?x a allergy-intolerance-status:confirmed ;
16:13:53 <ericP>      a allergy-intolerance-status:active ;
16:13:53 <ericP>      a fhircs:allergy-intolerance-status
16:13:53 <ericP> } WHERE {
16:13:56 <ericP>   ?x a fhircs:allergy-intolerance-status ;
16:13:58 <ericP>       fhir:CodingBase.code [
16:13:59 <dbooth> lloyd: But that's outside of our stuff.  Bridging ont will have to do that.
16:14:01 <ericP>         fhir:value "confirmed"^^xsd:token ] }
16:16:57 <dbooth> q+ Maybe we can mitigate Lloyd's concern by how we name these syntactic classes
16:17:25 <dbooth> q+ to say Maybe we can mitigate Lloyd's concern by how we name these syntactic classes
16:18:59 <dbooth> eric: Another way to look at this.  If you give people names for these, they might make erroneous statements about them.
16:19:37 <dbooth> ... Safer thing is to name them, but document them warning not to make semantic statements about them.
16:20:41 <dbooth> ack dbooth
16:20:41 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say Maybe we can mitigate Lloyd's concern by how we name these syntactic classes
16:20:49 <ericP> let's name them with names that use unicode characters that make their eyes bleed
16:22:14 <dbooth> dbooth: For example, in programming, internal entities are often named starting with underscore: _foo
16:24:53 <dbooth> eric: everywhere you would otherwise write the class name, you write the whole anonymous expression.
16:26:31 <dbooth> lloyd: When we map to an external ont, we're mapping using the concepts, not the codes that signify the concepts.
16:26:55 <dbooth> ... I think we can do this having names for the concepts but not for the CodingBases.
16:32:33 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
16:37:54 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:37:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
18:32:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #hcls
19:11:18 <dbooth> Chair: David Booth and Paul Knapp
19:13:07 <dbooth> Present: Adam (webex only), Bill Kleinebecker, Rob Hausam, Darrell Woelk, Lloyd McKenzie, Paul Knapp, Steve (webex only), Tony Mallia
19:13:47 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
19:13:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-hcls-minutes.html dbooth