08:23:43 RRSAgent has joined #ceo-ld 08:23:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-irc 08:23:58 Zakim has joined #ceo-ld 08:24:09 rrsagenet, make logs public 08:24:17 RRSAgent, make logs public 08:24:35 Topic: Tour de Table 08:24:36 Simon Agass – Data Satellite Catapult. Activating different sorts of data, making it available. Data innovation. Denise McKenzie, OGC. Introduces self/OGC. Work being done in the SDWWG – choosing standard Geoffrey – geology, talked about work on glaciers etc. Mapping and coverage data is important (LIDAR etc) Strategic objectives for CODATA: • data science – integration. Classic techniques don't work • we need to be able to make data a[CUT] 08:24:45 Meeting: CEO-LD Kick Off Meeting 08:24:51 chair: phila 08:25:09 agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/London_Kick_Off_meeting#Draft_Agenda 08:26:59 Jitao: Works at Institute of Remote Sensing/CAS 08:27:11 ... Has largest amount of sat data in China, trying to open it to the world 08:27:35 Maik: From univeristy of Berlin. Work with Jon Blower on MELODIES project 08:28:08 -> http://www.melodiesproject.eu/ MELODIES project 08:28:58 Maik: Talked about the project. Experimenting with different APIs etc. 08:29:47 ... quite new to the area. Joined Uni reading reently, was training at ESA 08:30:20 ... Come from a Web Developer point of view. I just want to use data easily 08:30:43 Jianhui: From CNIC/CAS 08:31:10 ... Operate infrastructure in CAS, providing service to other scientists 08:31:15 ... inc high speed network 08:31:50 ...developing infrastructure to integrate research data within CAS which has > 100 institutes 08:32:02 ... want to provide data services to all the scientists. 08:32:23 ... For sat data, we deliver service systems, connected to 350TB of satellite data that can be downloaded freely 08:32:51 ... Open sat data - the big change is how to make it easier to find and access the data and get infro from this sat data 08:32:53 scribe:ph 08:33:09 Jianhui: So we want to work out how to put sat data on the open Web 08:33:21 ... Also a member of CODATA China 08:33:27 scribe: phila 08:33:46 jianhui: Work with Geoffrey and Simon H on this 08:34:07 ... This is a good opportunity for us to help make sast data more open more easily 08:34:17 ... and exchange data between UK and China 08:34:52 YangGao: Surrey Space 08:35:10 chunming has joined #ceo-ld 08:35:13 ... want to automate real time processing of satellite data 08:35:38 ... not familiar with W3C and OGC - but encouraged by what I've heard 08:35:48 ... ambition of this group coincides with our work 08:36:12 ... want to understand what we can contribute to standardising 08:36:24 Angel has joined #ceo-ld 08:36:32 ... want to identify gaps, methodologies etc. Encouraging community to follow methods 08:36:52 ... SSTL has long standing relationship with many Chinese organisations 08:37:20 ... First remote sensing satellite acquired in China came from Surrey Space (SSTL) 08:37:41 ... helpful in disaster monitoring, urban planning etc. 08:38:27 ... very motivated to work with Chinese colleagues. Want to share lessons learnt, etc. 08:38:32 jitao has joined #ceo-ld 08:38:38 Payam: From University of Surrey 08:38:47 .. work on IoT, data interop 08:38:55 ... member of the SDW WG 08:40:20 phila: Can you, Geoffrey, say something about the UK-China angle, what are the funders asking for 08:40:53 Geoffrey: The FO is looking for collaboration between UK and China that will help lead to innovation 08:41:13 ... I said that all you can do is stimulate the first part of that. It's up to others to begin the companies that earn the billions 08:41:30 (FO = UK Foreign Office) 08:41:48 ... The widespread use of data that is freely open to all can be the basis of a lot of enconomic activity 08:42:28 ... What we need to do in teh short term is to identify the issue we're trying to address, look for the way forward. In 6 months time we should be able to set out in precise terms the work that needs to be done then to lead to future development 08:42:39 s/teh/the/ 08:43:32 present+ jtandy 08:45:03 SimonAgass has joined #ceo-ld 08:45:14 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 08:45:24 Simon_Hodson has joined #ceo-ld 08:45:43 present+ chunming 08:45:56 Payam has joined #ceo-ld 08:46:05 D_McKenzie has joined #ceo-ld 08:46:24 present+ Simon_Hodson 08:46:33 present+ SimonAgass 08:46:40 present+ MaikRiechert 08:46:48 present+ Payam 08:46:53 present+ phila 08:46:57 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:46:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 08:46:59 present+ D_McKenzie 08:47:15 present+ jitao 08:47:21 present+ Angel 08:47:28 RRSAgent, make logs public 08:47:32 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:47:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 08:48:04 First correction: I'm not from the University of Berlin, but University of Reading :) 08:48:51 s/univeristy of Berlin/University of Reading 08:49:01 jtandy has joined #ceo-ld 08:49:53 for chinese: http://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/Overview.html.zh-hans 08:50:09 Wiki page: https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/Edinburgh 08:50:41 Yang has joined #ceo-ld 08:51:00 present +Yang 08:51:08 W3C official website: http://www.w3.org/account/request 08:51:15 https://www.w3.org/accounts/request 08:56:46 Wiki page for London Kick-off meeting: https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/London_Kick_Off_meeting 08:57:16 D_McKenzie: can participants in this group be from countries other that UK and China? 08:57:54 GeofreyBolton: that is for our group to determine- we need to outline how _we_ want to work [to reach our goals] 08:58:13 s/GeofreyBolton/GeoffreyBolton/ 08:58:49 phila: [talks about the logistics of the group] 08:59:06 phila: there are two face-to-face meetings 08:59:22 ... first Sapporo, for W3C TPAC 08:59:44 W3C TPAC 2015: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/Overview.html 08:59:52 ... this is not formerly part of the project, it is where the W3C/OGC Spatial Data on the Web WG will meet 09:00:29 phila: the next F2F meeting will be in Beihang ... to be organised by chunming 09:00:33 TPAC 2015 (in Chinese): http://www.chinaw3c.org/tpac2015-overview.html 09:01:09 phila: also there are the weekly teleconf calls for Spatial Data on the Web WG (SDW) 09:01:58 ... we'll be holding the next one tomorrow afternoon in this room (@ Royal Society no less), 2PM UK-time (UTC+1) 09:02:13 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PSnpJYQDgsdgZgPJEfUU0EhVfgFFYGc1WL4xUX9Dunk/edit#gid=2122201582 09:03:15 jtandy: The Use Cases eds worked out which use cases apply to Coverages etc. 09:03:42 http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirements.html#arCoverageInLinkedData 09:04:53 GB: Use cases seem very specific. Why? Just written by people in the group? 09:05:20 jtandy: The UCs are written by the group. We wanted people to write UCs that are specific so that you can validate against it - you can find test data 09:05:56 (link doesn't work in Firefox, says "undefined" in all headers) 09:06:00 jtandy: In the best practices doc, for example, we're looking at common themes for exposing GIS on the Web. We've not looked much at sat data as we knew this group was coming 09:06:29 using Chrome now, works ;) 09:07:03 Geoffrey asks about the common themes; see here: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives 09:07:48 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 09:08:51 Jeremy describes the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group's use case and best practices 09:09:38 there is a lack of satellite data related use-cases 09:10:21 one of the key goals of the the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group is to encourage people to link their data to other assets on the web 09:10:54 jtandy: one of the key goals of the the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group is to encourage people to link their data to other assets on the web 09:11:06 SimonAgass: I think linking data is even more important for sat data 09:11:17 ... was disrupted by G Maps etc. 09:11:40 ... prices of sat data dropping. Sentinel, SkyBox etc. 09:11:52 ... bigger players are seeing a threat in some way to their curated data model 09:12:21 ... EO data has not been connected through the Web. It's been in isolation. best you might get is in the metadata 09:13:02 ... putting the data into context is where the value comes. Mashing it wwith other data on the Web is where the value comes. For the EO industry to move on, integrating it into the Web of data will greatly increase the value 09:13:22 jtandy: The MELODIES project is looking at that. Pipelines etc. 09:13:30 ... (Processing pipelines) 09:14:03 SimonAgass: We did a project earlier this year with Chile on disaster management. They had lots of sat data,m but not the resources to undertand it nad use it 09:14:24 ... we built some infrastructure that used Linked Data, NLP etc. to bring in more info 09:15:00 GB: It strikes me that linking sat data is crucial - but what sort of other data. You want spectral range to be aware of others 09:15:09 ... not just this image but have you looked at A, b C 09:15:31 ... geological maps of coutries might be a general cover - but that's not global. it's regional 09:15:44 ... Thirdly point data - might be very ad hoc, incomplete 09:16:00 ... I think we need to think about what sort of data we want to linjk to 09:16:17 jtandy: +1 we can link from anythign to anything but it repidly dissolves into meaninglessness 09:16:41 s/repidly/rapidly/ 09:16:42 GB: Typically on the Web, you ask 'what's at this location? - but we might want to ask what are the locations that have these same properties? 09:16:55 GB: You can't do that with ad hoc observations 09:17:03 Important to be able to ask the question: at what locations is this property the case? 09:17:13 jtandy: I think we should come back to that conversation. It's a key topic 09:17:42 What needs to be done to the satellite EO data in order to be able to ask such questions? 09:17:44 ... Maybe SimonAgass could give us an insight into what you had to do with the sat data for Chile to integrate it. I guess it was mostly manual? 09:17:49 SimonAgass: Mostly 09:18:03 jtandy: You have to be an expert - you can't offload the set up time to a software agent 09:18:17 jtandy: So theme 1 was linking data 09:18:23 Themes for Use Cases 09:18:29 Theme One: linked data. 09:18:41 Theme Two: publishing data with clear semantics 09:20:44 jtandy: Talks through more of https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives 09:21:30 D_McKenzie has joined #CEO-LD 09:21:56 jtandy: a part of the work at the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group is to formalise the vocabulary that can describe geospatial data 09:23:16 GB: It seems to me that you need to compose your query well to discovery 09:23:34 ... Would it be helpful to give advice on how to compose the right query? 09:23:56 ... Geo probs at the moment - you tend to go to Google Maps 09:24:20 ... what is the starting point, how do you ask the right question? 09:24:39 jtandy: Implementers tend to provide portals that encode a lot of the hidden knowledge 09:25:09 ... imagine an air quality dataset. Data is being collected in a number of places that might be listed in a gazeteer 09:25:30 ... but if I use that gazeteer then there are more links/routes to discoverability 09:25:48 GB: I think I'm getting back - do we need to have experts to use this data 09:26:12 ... So the question is, how much expertise do we expect people to have in order to be able to access the information. 09:26:41 jtandy: Colleagues talk of the danger of giving access to data to people who don't understand it. 09:26:51 GB: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing 09:27:15 jtandy: You shouldn't need to be an exoert to ask the question altough you may need some xertise to understand the answer 09:27:40 D_McKenzie: And there's a danger with locations since you can gather lots of info about a location that can lead to privacy braeches 09:27:52 s/braeches/breaches 09:28:12 D_McKenzie: Maybe there are some datasets that you shouldn't be able to link 09:28:24 s/xertise/expertise/ 09:28:25 GB: This has resonance in code breaking 09:28:47 Payam: If you have multiple providers of data you're looking for and then finding the data within that 09:29:08 ... There's an indexing issue there 09:29:33 ... And then the interesting part, once you have the data, you don't have everything in one document, you have links to find more 09:29:42 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:29:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 09:30:10 Jianhui: We have a platform that provies services to the scientists so we know about the requirements that they have 09:30:37 .... Sometimes you don't jyst want a link from one image to another, you want a link to otehr info. 09:30:57 .... They want to link at differnet scales or the whole picture 09:31:03 ... I think the use case is more complicated 09:31:18 ... So I think we need to invite some users to tell us what they're after 09:31:55 jtandy: Drawing input from the user community is something that the sat applications catapult has been doing for the last 2 years - so maybe SimonAgass can talk about that 09:32:18 SimonAgass: Users, yes, and the value adders. Look at some of the challenges we want to overcome. 09:32:39 jtandy: Before we create any new tech, we should look at what problem it should solve 09:32:58 DM: EObs has many facets 09:33:31 jtandy: The broader SDW is about coverage data. This group here has a series of expertise in space based RS 09:33:50 ... there are use cases in the SDW that mention LIDAR, Sonar etc 09:34:03 ... there are also in situ sensing questions. It's still EO 09:34:34 GB: I suggets we concentrate on satellite data but then ask which principles apply to otehr areas. Are there exceptions when talking about sat data 09:35:13 GB: There was a gov report on what sensor data was available, ice sheets etc. 09:35:55 jtandy: There are also coverage datasets that are not an observations. A coverage varies with space or time. 09:36:17 ... The Met Office has coverages that are time series of measurements at the same points for >150 years 09:36:43 GB: There are many dataets that have both spatial and temporal slices 09:37:16 jtandy: When we create these 4 D datasets, it's quite hard to work with them as they've been sliced and stored in one way. 09:37:36 GB: Sampling is a fuindamental issue. Most of the maps we generate are interpolated based on point data 09:37:50 ... do we want to think about sampling distances and correlatability 09:38:11 jtandy: That's an example of the context we need to interpret the EO data 09:39:01 Payam: The Semantic Sensor Network - is an uppler level ontology, but you can put in specifics. 09:39:11 jtandy: There has been a proposal for simplification 09:40:01 jtandy: Talks about the CHARME project 09:40:13 ... people find that they want to annotate sections of data they've found 09:40:56 -> http://charme.org.uk/ CHARME project 09:41:44 Payam: SSN looked at the sensor devices - but if you have streaming data, you don't need to add the semantics to each itme, just the stream 09:42:09 jtandy: The last theme is obvious... which is how to express the geographic and temporal elements 09:42:16 ... how do we write that down 09:42:24 ... there are multiple mechanisms for doing that 09:42:33 D_McKenzie has joined #CEO-LD 09:42:43 ... we want to encourage convergence on one 09:42:57 jtandy: Recaps on https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives 09:43:40 jtandy: Nothing specific there about coverage data - we can create it if we need to but I think what we've said so far can fit into those 7 09:44:18 Jianhui: You mentioned oublishing data with clear semantics. RS data can be understood by machine? 09:44:37 s/oublishing/publishing/ 09:44:58 jtandy: In the US there are a number of orgs creating hydrology data (Aus has 500 such orgs) 09:45:33 ... Untl recently, there was no governance on how that info was produced. Everyone had their own data model that was very hard to reconcile 09:45:43 DM: There was a trading model for water in Aus 09:46:14 jtandy: We need to be able to do the mapping automatically, do the crosswalks etc. 09:46:23 DM: Google Translate for data 09:46:51 MaikRiechert: In Melodies - land cover categories arfe different in diff countries and it's hard to map between them 09:47:14 jtandy: In Germany you might have coniferous forest, elsewhere it's just forest 09:47:23 ... That's a relatively simple mapping 09:47:30 ... but it can be more complex 09:47:45 ... we want to be able to offload a lot of ther work to machines 09:48:03 MaikRiechert: Yes, but you need to experiment with differnet mappings., You can't have a universal mapping 09:48:17 ... Maybe there can be default mappings from some organisations 09:48:44 jtandy: Once you've experiement with mappings, you might want to publish 'these are the mappings that worked for me' so we should make those durable and publishable 09:49:03 ... Which brings us to questions we've not touched on - how 3rd parties can add or subtract value 09:49:09 ... Annotations is one part of it. 09:49:25 MELODIES project: http://www.melodiesproject.eu 09:49:32 ... trust and provenance 09:49:40 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:49:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 09:49:46 Simon_Hodson: 09:49:57 ... Can we think about linking those attributes? 09:50:22 ... So we need to identify those attributes and see how they'd be used to describe some data 09:50:35 jtandy: I think that's a workable approach 09:50:48 ... I haven't come with any pre-baked ideas 09:51:07 ... You're saying (SH) that these are things that scientists typically ask in a given field 09:51:41 Simon_Hodson: it seems that what we're interested in the kind of attributes we need to think about 09:51:47 jtandy: Physical quantities? 09:52:02 Simon_Hodson: Yes, or an attribute that there might be pollution from a sensor or whatever 09:52:26 jtandy: The contextual info is what you use to assess whether the data is any use for you 09:52:53 ... So starying with the attributes is common 09:53:40 DM: Sensor Enablement is a framework for how you handle the geospatial aspects of sensors. So it's a management toolkit providing a level of consistency 09:54:08 DM: A way to see what you're going to get from that sensor network. But you can put in info that allows you to make further decisions 09:54:33 Payam: I think SWEET (?) has service descriptions too 09:54:44 ... so you can see the format so you know how to query 09:55:03 s/SWEET (?)/SWE/ 09:55:08 DM: Standards help here, you state how you've set up your network so people know what to expect.# 09:55:16 (SWE = Sensor Web Enablement) 09:57:10 RRSAgent, draft minutes 09:57:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 10:01:52 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 10:02:25 minutes: http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html 10:25:56 Simon_Hodson has joined #ceo-ld 10:27:08 Payam has joined #ceo-ld 10:27:29 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 10:29:03 jtandy has joined #ceo-ld 10:29:27 phila: resumes the meeting after coffee 10:29:45 ... we need to set out what we would like to achieve and what we can achieve 10:29:50 ... and what is not in scope 10:29:53 ... then ... 10:30:14 ... all around this room know about various standards- we can determine the gaps 10:30:42 ... we also need to respect the goals of this working group- based on the charter of the SDW WG 10:31:23 yang: (talking to phil over the break) 10:31:36 ... the key challenges that we need to highlight are 10:31:48 ... i) the diversity of satellite data payload 10:32:03 ... optical cameras, SAR, LIDAR, multi-spectral cameras 10:32:14 ... there is a diversity of instrument 10:32:30 ... which means that there is a diversity in different formats 10:33:02 ... the satellite operators [tend to] encrypt and compress the data for downloink 10:33:13 s/downloink/downlink/ 10:33:51 yang: then once the "data product" is received [at the ground station] this compression and encryption is reversed 10:34:11 ... the data is then turned into products that can be discovered and used 10:34:16 ... [...] 10:35:09 .... there is a diversity of approaches for creating these products (?) based on the heritage and background of different System suppliers 10:35:37 yang: so ... we want standards- but standards close to the data product end of this process 10:35:52 ... nevertheless, we need to consider two phases 10:36:18 ... i) generic processing that can be standardised for _any_ application 10:37:09 ... ii) [doing stuff] for specific domains, such as agriculture etc. 10:37:18 ... the second phase is difficult to do 10:37:42 ... but there is likely to be good support from the scientific cimmunity to do this 10:37:59 ... but, like said this morning, we need to engage with the end users 10:38:15 ... we also need to set up examples that we can refer to 10:38:23 phila: here's my use case ... 10:38:35 ... simon has a bunch of developers creating applications 10:39:12 ... they want to use satellite data- from Jianhui's data centre and SENTINEL (and other sources) 10:39:37 ... the point is that the application developer should be able to treat each of those sources in the same way 10:39:54 ... each 'product' will have the same structure 10:40:12 ... [phila points out some specific parts to consider] 10:40:37 phila: we need to standardise on the 'product' - the coverage 10:41:04 ... then, in subsequent phases of this working group's life, there is implementation to consider 10:41:22 ... we will seek money / funding for a phase 2 where 10:41:50 ... we can engage with the satellite manufacturers / operators to implement these standards 10:42:12 ... so that it easy for application developers to work with multiple sources 10:43:05 yang: there is a starting point for where we can standardise- [after the encryption and compression is removed] 10:43:28 +1 chunming 10:43:39 ... it would be difficult to engage with satellite manufactures earlier than this 10:43:52 yang: after this we can look at data formats 10:44:40 ... at this point we can work with users to see how these formats can be georeferenced (?) etc. 10:44:55 ... if this can be clarified, this would be better 10:45:06 phila: I think that this is what we're doing 10:45:18 ... we want to focus in the user end 10:45:39 ... I'm focused on the application developer who wants to access data through a set of APIs 10:45:53 ... they will be using http, apis, etc. 10:46:16 ... this is different to the [expert] users from Juanhui's organisation 10:47:04 ... but this is clearly different from the calibration and [detailed instrumentation] that is executed at the satellite Platform and Ground Station 10:47:49 phila: [in reponse to GB's question] I see two types of users: 10:48:20 ... i) the regular web developer ... they understand web-stuff but have no need understand 10:48:35 ... the details of the satellite, the instrument, the processing chain etc. 10:48:47 ... this is hard- I'm asking for the moon on a stick 10:49:20 ... example: Geoscience Australia hackathon ... everyone created applications based on timeseries of pictures where they lived 10:49:29 ... not really adding value 10:49:44 ... given the investment to acquire and curate that data 10:50:03 ... in the linked data world there are many data sources that could be linked to satellite data 10:50:16 ... statistics etc. ... 10:50:28 ... it's the job of a data scientist to do this 10:50:57 ... but actually, we want web developers to be able to do this 10:51:02 ... that's our first user 10:51:16 ... this is the focus, the main priority 10:51:25 we cna consider 3 categories of users: 10:51:32 s/cna/can 10:51:49 i) users who are interested in observation and measurment data 10:52:05 jianhui: we have data scientist users 10:52:34 ii) the second group are users who are interested in the O&M data linked to other assets on the web and/or to be able to link the data to other assets 10:52:51 jitao: users in my organisation are experts in the data but don't understand the web technologies - I do, but they generally don't 10:53:08 GB: so what kind of people are these? 10:53:27 iii) users who are interested in O&M data + linked data+ provenance data and the processes that have been applied to the data in the pipeline 10:53:44 phila: I worry that [if we tightly define] the users, we will close of potential solution 10:54:29 GB: why are we doing this? so that people can utilise this information creatively for their purpose 10:55:06 ... so we need to put the maximum usability in place whilst minimising the constraints on usage (such as the need for expertise) 10:55:47 phila: looking at Payam's catelgories, the first and second (?) map to 4-star and 5-star linked data 10:56:09 5-start data: http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/0123_phila_lata/#(14) 10:56:26 [phila gives an overview of 5-star linked data] 10:56:37 6-start is data with provenance 10:56:45 (also see http://5stardata.info/en/) 10:57:16 Payam: we can look at the details for all these groups- 10:57:50 ... but we can start by looking at the core elements for the first category 10:58:02 ... and then add modules for categories 2 and 3 10:58:23 GB: let's look at the deficit here ... it seems to be expertise 10:58:41 ... a lack of expertise prevents people from using the data 10:59:04 ... if you're an expert, you can probably navigate this anyway 10:59:11 MaikRiechert: [missed] 10:59:27 Zakim has left #ceo-ld 10:59:51 GB: there's one category of users that are clear ... that's students, the educational value of this data is huge 11:00:34 different data representation could map to different user types, e.g. a user without expert knowledge could use a WMS endpoint, whereas an expert user could use a more direct access to the data, like WCS, GeoSPARQL, or other APIs/formats 11:01:04 jianhui: there are many cases where 11:01:32 jianhui: There are cases where people just want to share data with their colleagues. Location data etc and they'll make a map of where they went - social media style 11:01:49 jtandy: So they're creating a derived product using sat data as input 11:02:12 ... one example is burn mapping after wildfires in Greece so that funds can be allocated to rejuvenation 11:02:41 SimonAgass: That applies in an industrial org as well. Imagine a distributed org - they want to share data without losing control 11:03:12 phila: We're not doing Access Control - LD doesn't mean LOAD 11:03:18 s/LOAD/LOD/ 11:03:35 jtandy: Summarises - assume data has been downlinked, decrypted and put in a format ready for exchange. 11:03:49 ... We don't want to try nad tell manufacturers to re-engineer their satellites 11:04:08 MaikRiechert: There are different levels of processing. If they want to expose an earlier level they can 11:05:24 phila: there a standard in this space already- from W3C ... 11:05:42 ... RDF Data Cube, DCAT, PROV-O etc. 11:06:19 Payam: agrees- we can find existing technologies 11:07:21 jtandy: You can use satellites to look at the surface roughness of the oceans to see how windy it is 11:07:44 ... typically those things are used to provide wind speed and direction variation over an area 11:08:05 ... I'm sure it's possible to create a time series over a specific point but it's not done in meteorology as a rule 11:08:06 phila: can I ask an embarrassing question- I've looked at lots of satellite data 11:08:17 GB: matching data points is always difficult 11:08:37 phila: is GeoTIFF a coverage 11:08:44 ... or an image 11:08:51 [discussion] 11:10:16 jtandy: Creating an OWL ontology from the Application schema that came out of the coverages WG sounds easy. However... what Peter baumann has done is to build something that is bound to the XMl sturcture, rather than the domain model 11:10:44 ... There is a coverages standard ISO19??? - that could probably be exported as an OWL ontology 11:10:55 MaikRiechert: Auto generated OWL is typically horrible 11:11:17 jtandy: Kerry calls it non-OWLy-OWL 11:11:26 ... You need an expert to interpret that 11:11:35 ... But there's a great description of what a coverage includes. 11:12:13 jtandy: A set of domain values in any number of dimensional spaces, and you have a set of values that you map on to that. The rest of the complexity comes from expressing the space and time aspects 11:12:39 s/ISO19???/ISO 19107 11:12:39 jtandy: Can we give coordinates without giving gthe CRS 11:12:48 DM: SOme of that work is happening in otehr places 11:12:58 s/gthe/the 11:13:14 s/otehr/other 11:13:47 jtandy: SOme of the reaklly valuable thing to come out of the coverage implementation work that peter Baumann has done... rather than having to iterate over each point, you can define a start point and a step and a grid description 11:13:55 ... those things don't appear in the ISO model 11:14:10 ... you could provide those things in the metadata - the rectified grids 11:14:24 ... would that be helpful? 11:14:36 GB: I think that's a serious problem... recoverability 11:15:30 ... Say you have a bunch of school children in South Africa and they come up with something brilliant. And people thing that's so important and so profound and we'd need to go and track back to understand where their data came from 11:15:55 jtandy: The US National Climate - they have the 'line of sight' concept between data and application 11:16:23 ... You may not be too concerned aout the provenance info but a user might so that they can determine whetehr to trust the product. 11:16:46 s/US National Climate/US National Climate Assessment/ 11:16:47 GB: Not all users need to know everything but there is need to be able to trace 11:17:20 jtandy: So we've agreed where we start our standardisation path 11:17:40 ... we want to support developers who just want to get the job done 11:17:58 ... There are people who will need to track back the provenance 11:18:32 jtandy: if you just have the data, that sounds limiting. Here's a GeoTIFF 11:19:00 ... without any more background 11:19:08 ... that's still a coverage but you don't know where it came from 11:19:15 ... A lot of developers might be in that space 11:19:34 ... A farmer just wants to know whetehr he should plant what where 11:19:43 DM: But he does need to be able to rust the data 11:21:11 Yang: Is there a legality issue? The data source usually owns the data 11:21:26 s/rust/trust 11:22:03 [phila cites his next working group: Open License ...] 11:22:38 Yang: Even if you put a time stamp on the data - there might be other satellites that acquire similar data at similar times - can the user choose differnet sources and differnet times, so the prov is important 11:23:05 -> http://w3c.github.io/ole/charter.html Open License Expression WG (draft) 11:23:18 Yang: Explores provenance issues 11:24:29 phila: Talks about applkication specificity 11:24:49 s/applkication/application 11:24:58 SimonAgass: So is there a group that doesn't want provenance? 11:25:09 jtandy: There's a group that are happy to assume that someone else has looked at the prov 11:25:46 DM: using government data comes with an inherent trust level (justified or otherwise) 11:25:58 s/applkication/application 11:26:25 (seems like we have two categories: application developers and data scientists?) 11:26:33 chunming: So there's a requirement that we want to be able to query this data through a kind of timestamp - I want to query some portion of data from adefined time... 11:26:48 ... one of my colleagues is trying to develop new algorithms with time 11:26:56 ... this is a new research area in the database domain 11:27:17 jitao: This kind of data has already been included in sat data 11:27:53 jtandy: So if we have 2 typesof user - app developers who make assumptions about data 11:28:14 ... and we have people we rudelu call data scientists who really want to be able to check the prov 11:28:20 DM: And one feeds into the other 11:29:03 jtandy: Payam you said that we could start with teh core set of things that the devs want and then add the modules that the data scientists want 11:29:10 ... that seems like a useful approach to me 11:29:25 jtandy: People are going to want to get a lumo of data out of the big whole 11:29:43 ... by starting from the web developer, we start simple 11:30:33 phila: I'm still struggling with my inexperience here- what does coverage data look like 11:31:08 deniseMcK: also, what does a coverage look like in the context of this group? 11:31:31 phila: so for example, if I have a "coverage" can I access a single point? 11:37:03 GEOGLAM initiative 11:37:11 -> http://www.geoglam-crop-monitor.org/ GeoGLAM 11:37:29 http://unstats.un.org/unsd/bigdata/ 11:37:44 UN Big Data for Official Satallite 11:38:11 s/Satallite/Statistics 11:38:47 scribe: chunming 11:39:36 Payam: next meeting will be in Beijing 11:40:34 jtandy: we will find the community that will support the coverage data 11:41:52 Simon Agass: not only download data, but also providing some infor to describe it. 11:42:19 RRSAgent, draft minutes 11:42:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 11:42:24 jtandy: talk about relevant data, what is relevant 11:44:06 Simon Agass: example of population analysis; tag images; [missing] 11:47:00 ... adition, search for , damige assessment, need remote locations; 11:48:19 jtandy: so in the example, the active volcano should be a relevant archived datasets. 11:49:18 RRSAgent, draft minutes 11:49:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 11:49:19 jtandy: is there introduction of MELODIES project? 11:50:06 Maik Riechart: introduce of MELODIES projects 11:50:40 ... link data set and provide meanings. 11:50:53 ... don't know how to link with datasets, apis, 11:51:10 ... if there's kind of document of this, could be useful 11:51:46 land cover example: http://melodiesproject.eu/content/challenges-mapping-land-cover 11:52:41 Denise McKenzie: [missing] 11:53:32 Phila: with emphasis this meeting, try help working group deliverible on coverage linked data 11:53:42 ... one of doing is best practice document 11:53:51 (Denise talked about using the NASA Space Apps Challenge hackathons as a source of questions that developers might have when working with earth observation data) 11:54:37 Maik Riechart: where the place to discuss? 11:54:49 phila: working group 11:56:51 ... talk about provanance; talked about sharing on the web, encourage people to do that; 11:57:22 ... second stage is about implementation, testing, encourage people to do impl. 11:57:37 ... talked about what is coverage data. 11:58:04 ... category, infoset that may be relevant to the image 11:59:18 DM: large meta data vocabulary. on geospatial data 11:59:49 ... for coverage, its a subset (?) 12:00:44 phila: coverage data is - the rdf data cube (3 dim), or two dim (table), in RDF, or json format. this could be useful. 12:00:54 jtandy: for multi-dim datasets 12:01:24 ... it could be cut to horizental pieces, and tiles, ... 12:01:48 ... use RDF data cube, that related to different access patterns 12:02:53 phila: talked about image accessible (accessibility), that might be relevant. 12:03:29 jtandy: image can be data 12:03:47 ... take the value of a pixel 12:05:03 RRSAgent, draft minutes 12:05:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 12:05:03 [morning session closed] 12:34:29 jtandy has joined #ceo-ld 12:59:24 Payam has joined #ceo-ld 13:04:13 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 13:08:10 chunming has joined #ceo-ld 13:08:26 jtandy has joined #ceo-ld 13:20:25 jianhui has joined #ceo-ld 13:20:58 phila: there are three areas that we would like to focus: 13:23:01 i) metadata ii) access requirement and iii) representation options 13:24:43 phila: discusses ways of describing geospatial datasets and existing standards 13:24:49 data linking to/from coverage data is a kind of access req. 13:26:11 phila: what is a dataset? how do you define a dataset? 13:26:13 phila: how do you describe dataset? 13:27:23 discussion on using Dublin core to describe a dataset 13:28:30 difference between the dataset and distributions of the the same time 13:28:42 s/ the same time/the same data 13:28:51 s/the same time/the same data 13:29:30 distinction between the actual concept of the dataset and distributions of the dataset 13:30:47 jtandy: sometimes different systems use different identifiers for the same data and it is not obvious that for example two systems refer to the same data 13:31:36 jtandy: it is important to note that the same data can appear in different systems and maybe with different identifiers 13:32:35 GB: is this a problem that needs to be solved? 13:33:24 MaikRiechert: it is sometimes not clear what people refer to as a dataset 13:35:11 jtandy: reads the definition of dataset from DCAT 13:37:59 phila: we need to decide how we are going to define a "coverage" 13:39:15 phila: Access requirements: to we need to be able to access the individual observations? 13:42:48 jtandy: granularity questions refers to the issue that if one can reference individual items (e.g. cells in an image) and have direct access 13:43:25 phila: talks about RDF data cube 13:44:08 access requirement: for a third party to reference/access to a point/subset/part/whole of the dataset 13:44:14 Jitao has joined #ceo-ld 13:48:38 jtandy: talks about the observation in RDF data cube 13:49:31 W3C RDF Data Cube Vocabulary: http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-data-cube/ 13:52:51 Jianhui: RDF data cube provides the actual data not only the metadata 13:54:05 Jianhui: if we publish the remote sensing data as RDF we may need to provide new tools to allow users to use these data 13:55:02 Jianhui: if we have very large RDF described data, search and query will be slow 13:55:48 phila: you don't necessarily store it as RDF... you access and process it in other formats... 13:59:10 phila: you need to extract the part you need to transform it to RDF 13:59:57 Payam: or take the attributes that you need out of RDF and handle/process them separately (e.g. index the attributes outside RDF) 14:01:31 chunming: we should focus on interoperability and sharing dat not the implmentation 14:02:11 s/dat/data 14:02:12 s/dat/sata 14:02:31 s/sataa/data 14:03:43 linked data segments: http://linkeddatafragments.org 14:08:54 Yang: is it possible to extend the current satellite data format to help to understand [interpret] the data easily 14:09:40 Yang: NASA remote sensing data: http://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/rsd/RemoteSensing.html 14:09:46 phila has joined #ceo-ld 14:10:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:10:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 14:10:55 http://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/rsd/RemoteSensing.html 14:11:10 SimonAgass has joined #ceo-ld 14:12:07 http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov 14:12:26 http://mirador.gsfc.nasa.gov 14:14:46 http://mirador.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/mirador/granlist.pl?page=1&location=(-90,-180),(90,180)&dataSet=AMSRERR_CPR&version=002&allversion=002&startTime=2011-07-06T00:00:01Z&endTime=2011-07-06T23:59:59Z&keyword=AMSRERR_CPR&longname=AMSR-E%20Rainfall%20Subset,%20collocated%20with%20the%20CloudSat%20track&CGISESSID=eaf185b8f1dfaa584283d0ecbbe2d37d&prodpg=http://disc.gsfc.nasa.gov/datacollection/AMSRERR_CPR_V002.html 14:15:05 http://mirador.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/mirador/granlist.pl?page=1&location=(-90,-180),(90,180)&dataSet=GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H&version=001&allversion=001&startTime=2015-08-02&endTime=2015-08-02T23:59:59Z&keyword=GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H&prodpg=http://disc.gsfc.nasa.gov/datacollection/GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H_V001.html&longname=GLDAS%20CLM%20Land%20Surface%20Model%20L4%203%20Hourly%201.0%20x%201.0%20degree%20Subsetted&CGISESSID=64ecf6a8bef8d413aeb10d3223c7af28 14:15:36 D_McKenzie has joined #CEO-LD 14:15:47 link to metadata: http://hydro1.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/data/s4pa//GLDAS_V1/GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H/2015/214/GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H.A2015214.2100.001.2015253203046.grb.xml 14:17:06 http://data.satapps.org/ 14:20:22 Yang: this machine readable/interpretable data shouyld not replace human readable (i.e. HTML) represetnation 14:20:38 s/shouyld/should 14:24:43 GB: we should be assuring that data and inferences made from it are accessible to wider groups in the society and not only the scientists who work with that data 14:28:40 Simon: we should focus on the application, added value and use-cases that we couldn't do a certain task without the metadata 14:30:25 jtandy: HDF is commonly used by satellite data, but it is not accepted by browser :-) 14:33:33 GB: summarises what we have discussed: 14:33:34 phila: idealy, we want to create a user agent, it read a URL in special pattern, and return a dataset in a text-format, structural, semantic/metadata rich way. 14:33:52 Some sample data from Sentinel 1 http://sedas.satapps.org/download-sample-data/ 14:34:22 GB:what we discussed: purpose, function and ways to deliver- 14:39:34 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:39:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 14:54:48 Payam has joined #ceo-ld 14:55:00 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:55:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 14:55:09 MaikRiechert has joined #ceo-ld 14:56:12 scribe: phila 14:56:23 chair: Jeremy 14:57:08 jtandy: Checks who will be here tomorrow 14:57:41 ... invites those who won't to express any thing they wanted to raise 14:57:55 GB: Planning to circulate a notes of today's meeting 14:58:13 SimonAgass: Nothing at the minute to raise. 14:58:31 Payam: Are we going to link what we're discussing here with the SDW WG 14:58:38 jtandy: Yes 14:59:16 ... Something I wanted to do today - was to remind ourselves of the 7 themes being discussed by the broader group wrt BPs 14:59:32 jtandy: So it is necessary toi partition the work between this group and the SDW Wg 14:59:40 ... and I'd like to achive that before we finish tomorrow. 14:59:58 Payam: This is a new type of accessing data from satellites 15:00:26 ... so we'll need funding to develop tools. So if we convert some NASA data, how do we know we've done it right? 15:00:47 jtandy: We need to engage the data publishing and using community and get them to build 15:00:57 Payam: We're atlking specifically about satellite data 15:01:08 jtandy: And if we have BPs, how do we evaluate whether they have met the BPs 15:01:19 ... and advice on hwo to do it 15:01:32 SimonAgass: We need to manage expectations on this too. 15:01:56 ... From my experience of saying we;re going to make EO data available raises expectations 15:02:16 ... This is a stage for describing data and making it available, but there are stages between the satellite and this stage and after it has been published 15:02:22 s/we;re/we're 15:02:29 jtandy: +1 15:02:47 ... we're not deadling with the data processing. We're only looking at the data publishing part of the story 15:02:59 ... So a task for tomorrow, we need to be clear on what our scope is 15:03:07 s/atlking/talking 15:03:43 phila: I think we're close to having that definition based on what Simon just said 15:03:50 jtandy: DM: The Interface 15:04:05 s/jtandy: DM: The Interface/DM: The Interface... 15:04:19 jtandy: Maybe think of it as a contract 15:04:38 SimonAgass: It does imply a level of handshake agreement 15:04:47 jtandy: So a searching question ... 15:05:07 ... When we're doing action planning for tomorrow, we need to know how much time each of us can commit 15:05:43 ... In order for us to be successful, some actual work has to be done. We need to cut our cloth accordingly 15:06:11 SimonAgass: there are activities that fall into this. One in particular on integrating LD 15:06:36 ... Broker Technology 4 EO 15:06:52 jtandy: That gives us a pathway towards future funding? 15:07:13 SimonAgass: There's a potential alignment that allows me to spend some time on this as it's about LD and EO 15:07:18 ... but not a massive amount of time 15:07:35 GB: I think the number of testbeds can be highly informative at this stage even if they're simple 15:08:38 Payam: I think Yang can help. Everuone in my dept is funded by a project so I can't pull people off those. 15:08:52 ... I can perhaps do a little 15:09:06 jtandy: And you're editor of the SDW WG's BP doc 15:09:15 jtandy: Any overlap with any of those projects? 15:09:50 Payam: We do semantic models for smart cities etc. There are validation issues etc. I can ask someone there to join the meetings/check something. 15:10:23 Yang: I think if we could know a little bit better what sort of commitment in terms of time you're looking for 15:10:47 ... In general we're very supportive of this work. 15:11:27 ... We were chatting earlier - this forum is so useful - I managed to come up with a project - I'll invite people to Surrey to look at proposals to funding bodies. 15:11:51 ... When we're working on those proposals maybe we can do some linking. 15:12:17 jtandy: In terms of that future proposal... what's the time scale from now on until somefunding arrives 15:12:48 yang: After the time of this project. Any bidding process will create new ideas in its own right. 15:13:03 yang: Lots of potential from this WG 15:13:23 Payam: We can contribute to use cases of course 15:13:50 jtandy: So content review, editorial, discussion, but not investigative work 15:14:08 jtandy: It's important that we don't over commit. 15:15:02 SimonH: It would be good to pull out examples. It will be most useful for me to comment on the documents. 15:15:24 jtandy: Are you content that we're working in a way that's compatible with CODATA 15:16:09 SH: I think I'd mention the connections I've raised. GODAN, GeoGlam 15:16:55 SH: CODATA does a lot of work on policy around EO. We are very active in that. Just submitted a white paper on the benefits of data sharing. 15:17:06 ... We'd like to contribute more to the tech standards level 15:17:19 ... We're also very active in training 15:17:49 ... So this initiative provides a useful opportunity to affect the development process. 15:18:29 DM: This is a topic to bring up with Barbara Ryan (?) at Eye on Earth next week. 15:18:41 SH: I'll be there as well 15:18:56 DM: OGC has 3 staff going to Geo in November 15:19:23 ... The plenary could be a useful place to validate any requirements we have by then. 15:19:51 DM: I won't be at GEO but Mark Reichart will (OGC CEO) 15:20:01 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:20:01 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 15:20:38 jtandy: Before the break, Phil was scribing a list. I have a similar list. 15:20:44 Topic: Issues 15:21:07 jtandy: First on the list I think we need to talk about is identifiers for the dataset and the distribution 15:21:19 ... is that a useful thing that we can talk about for coverage data? 15:21:22 Yes 15:21:45 jtandy: Also when talking about IDs, we need to be able to refer to slices, or subsets or individual cells 15:21:56 ... Can we provide patterns for slices and subsets? 15:22:25 ... What vocabulary would be use to link a subset to its parent 15:22:31 ... VoID does that already. 15:23:18 ... The need to be able to describe the relationship between a dataset and its parts 15:23:53 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/void/ VoID 15:26:01 jtandy: We'll need to see how things like VoID map onto our concerns 15:26:12 jtandy: next on my list - how do we discover the dataset? 15:27:01 ... Before you work with the data you have to find it so it needs to be discoverable, i.e. have discovery metadata 15:27:09 ... There's the ISO model 15:27:26 ... and GeoDCAT-AP which matches DCAT and ISO 19115 15:27:48 ... Earlier we talked about discovering datasets as a whole. We talked about granularity 15:28:37 Simon_Hodson has joined #ceo-ld 15:28:40 ... Irrespective of the dataset, every time you produce a coverage, there's metadata about the structure, the observed properties, the physical properties that the coverage provides. ISO19123 provides a way of doing thatm as does RDF data CUbe 15:28:49 ... So we can describe how it works inside. 15:29:39 ... When we want to share data - if it needs to be downloaded before you can access the metadata - that's not going to work. So the metadata needs to be usable by a user agent, preferably a browser that doesn't rely on a plugin. 15:29:41 s/thatm/that 15:30:13 jtandy: Logically that probably means multiple formats including RDF 15:30:55 ... Given that we need this metadata that is usable, how do we make it parsable by standard search engines? 15:31:33 ... When you publish your data, you want people to find it - it would be easier if they can find it in their usual search engine 15:32:04 jtandy: We need to be able to say 'this is how you publish your discovery metadata' 15:32:37 ... The site Yang pointed us to included a lot of human readable content that you can browser through - we need to keep that and provide a machine readable path 15:33:03 ... So our metadata should support human and machine browsing 15:33:41 Yang: We want search engines to be able to find our data, yes. That sort of result can be highlighted in future documetnation. 15:33:53 ... I don't know to what extent that can be defined in this project. 15:35:36 phila: data on the web best practice (almost done by w3c) - general staff on dataset share on the web 15:35:45 ... we are focusing on coverage data 15:35:51 -> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html Data on the Web Best Practices 15:36:08 phila: That covers general stuff about publishing data on the Web. 15:36:53 jianhui: I think it's very ambitious to publish scientific/research data to the Web - but maybe we should talk to the scientific users. Do they think it's a good way or not? I'm not sure. 15:37:12 jianhui: Maybe should make some demonstration or testbed to show the scientists - they're the end users. 15:37:28 ... I think that's important 15:37:53 ... SCientists might have differnet views on this. 15:39:18 jianhui: This idea of publishing scientific data on the Web is correct or not. Raw data - if teh resolution is high - might be >1 GB. If we publish to the Web 0 how can we get this data? 15:40:33 jianhui: Can we pubslish all that data? Do the scientists want it or not? Secodnly - what about the infrastructure - can it be supported or not. 15:43:26 phila: refers to http://philarcher.org/diary/2015/50shadesofno/ 15:44:09 GB: Years ago, it wasn't difficult to publish your data in the paper your wrote. People could see the data and decide whether you were right or wrong 15:45:10 ... The challenge now is that we base our science on enormous amounts of data. It's a real challenge to make it open enough for someone else to go through and see if you're right. 15:45:32 jtandy: But I do think it's important that we recognise that our infratsructure puts some restrictions on us. 15:45:55 ... In our work, we see that our data will be bigger by an order of magnitude in 10 years. 15:46:08 ... So we're talking about uploading sofware to the data 15:46:44 ... In some cases, you might be able to download the whole dataset. But it might be that it's so large that, today, you have send an e-mail to a colleague ask them to courier it to you. 15:46:57 ... Or you might be possible to open an API 15:47:33 ... So there are many paths - but the first step is to publish the metadata 15:48:10 GB: I agree that it's not easy, and maybe impossible 15:48:46 ... But if I publish a paper revealing the secret of life, it's worth accessing hte PetaBytes of data 15:49:02 chunming: What we want to do is not just copy how scientists share their data now, we want to do it better 15:49:06 ... amking better links 15:49:16 ... refer to a small portion of their data etc. 15:49:48 ... Of course, if we just implement using today's tech, we'd face problems with scalability 15:50:29 SimonAgass: We have to assume that tech will improve - so we don't need to wait until the scalable tech is available. 15:51:01 jtandy: And if we can build demonstrators that prove what we're trying to achieve, even accepting the constraints of bandwidth etc. 15:52:10 GB: CERN is a good example. They don't make all their data available - there's nowhere like it. But they do have a large internal community that check each other. 15:52:25 ... That's a sort of compromise as the amount of data they have is so large 15:52:40 jtandy: But they may still use the same technology within their computers. 15:53:20 Yang: If you need more justification.. one fact - any research council funded project now will require that the data has to be publicly accessible. 15:53:38 ... So IT departments are adding DOIs for datasets as well as papers. 15:53:56 ... I don't think there is any leeway for not publishing your data. 15:54:26 Yang: Anything published after 2016 will be under this rule 15:55:11 jtandy: I think that was one of teh requiremetns from the Royal Society's work on science an an open enterprise. 15:55:19 s/hte/the 15:55:43 ... As people are now applying for funding that will deliver after 2016, they're already including the costs of publishing data persistently. 15:56:00 SH: It's a requirement in Horizon 2020 15:56:27 jtandy: So when we're talking about publishing the data itself... we need to ask ourselves is how do we encode the data itself. 15:56:36 ... is it feasible or sensible to encode the whole lot in RDF 15:57:00 Payam: We came up with a set of smart city datasets for testing against 15:57:07 ... we annotated the data nad put it on the Web. 15:57:28 ... You give people the data and the tools. And then you see what the problems are 15:57:29 s/nad/and 15:58:02 jtandy: I think that's a good idea. There are mid scale datasets - ones big enough to be problematic but not obviously too huge 15:58:06 smart city dataset example:http://iot.ee.surrey.ac.uk:8080 (data and metadata) 15:58:16 and tools 15:58:45 Yang: This is not just going to benefit the current audience. Democratisation is not just wamted in the space business. People are working on reducing the amount of data needed to be downlinked etc. 15:58:54 ... Lots of effort looking into that. 15:59:08 ... This effort can merge with others in the space domain# 15:59:22 ... We may be being slightly optimistic about solving everything 15:59:44 ... but as space people we want people to be able to access space assets from mobile. 16:00:23 jtandy: If we might merge with others, do we know who that might be now? 16:01:09 CCSDS: http://public.ccsds.org/default.aspx (standards from space domain) 16:01:12 Yang: CCSDS might be relevant http://public.ccsds.org/default.aspx 16:01:46 SH: There's a meeting coming up with them and CODATA 16:02:03 ... CCSDS is more on the data management, long term management 16:03:13 jtandy: Might be worth letting them know about the work we're doing but at this point we may not expect them to have something for us 16:03:39 https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=CCDS+standards&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=p7UKVpiSCuHH8gf5kKfoAg#q=satellite+data+site:ccsds.org 16:03:40 action: We just identified a stakeholder - we ought to identify other stakeholders that we should contact 16:04:12 Payam: I see that CCSDS has a satellite data model 16:04:44 Yang: The WG I sit in within CCSDS is specifically about intelligent systems for spacecraft. 16:05:33 Yang: You could propose to start something with them 16:06:00 jtandy: We'll create a workplan on what we're going to do 16:06:28 ... I suggest Simon H takes point on that potential relationship 16:07:21 jtandy: We';re talking about how to encode the data. Obviously there are choices - NetCDF, HD5, etc. Many formats we can use and I think we can provide guidance on when it is best to use each type. 16:07:53 ... In particular, it's an interesting question to ask what types od data encoding (not metadata) might work in a browser 16:08:01 s/We';re/We're 16:08:08 ... can it consume it and display it with Canvas or Web GL 16:08:26 s/od data/of data 16:08:32 ... We should understand when there times when data can work nicely wth the browser etc. 16:08:42 ... We have talked a lot about how to query the data and interract with it. 16:09:23 ... One of the things we shoujld be looking at - what functions should an API offer. Query by geoposition, time (vital for smart cities), Simon talked about the observed quantity 16:09:32 s/shoujld/should 16:09:42 ... These are all examples of starting points for people to interract with EO data. 16:09:52 ... We talked about Strabon, Linked Data API 16:10:04 ... How difficult SPARQL is to work with etc. 16:10:22 ... Lots of work we could do to turn the conversation on APIs actionable. 16:10:32 ... We talked about annotations on datasets 16:10:39 ... The CHARME project should help there 16:10:50 ... being able to refer to bits of datasets or the whole dataset 16:10:59 ... How do I identify subsets, slices etc. 16:11:04 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:11:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila 16:11:43 jtandy: To support users/non-experts - we need to support provenance to describe the processing chain or how my subset has been extracted. 16:12:09 ... We'll certainly want to describe the provenance in terms of the platform, source etc. - which maps to the Semantic Sensor Network. 16:12:24 ... Wheredid this come from (processing chain, platform). 16:12:38 ... And for the non-expert, how can a data publisher make an assessment of quality 16:13:23 jtandy: Phil pointed me to http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-dqg.html 16:13:42 jtandy: Are there significant gaps? 16:14:01 Payam: Part of this data is live so that fact changes the way you handle it. 16:14:22 GB: What I suggest we do is to start writing our report in note form tomorrow moring. 16:14:32 s/moring/morning/ 16:15:37 phila: There are things that are relevant to us that are being covered elsewhere (BPs, SSN etc) 16:16:03 GB: We can identify the overlaps, the other one is where we can bets use our efforts in some sort of test bed to be developed, rather than in an ad hoc way 16:16:12 ... So who else do we want to inform about this. 16:17:21 phila: as jianhui said, coverage data could be huge, need way to access a portion of data 16:17:29 phila: Makes general points about scalability 16:17:36 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:17:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila