IRC log of ceo-ld on 2015-09-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:23:43 [RRSAgent]
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08:23:43 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-irc
08:23:58 [Zakim]
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08:24:09 [phila]
rrsagenet, make logs public
08:24:17 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
08:24:35 [phila]
Topic: Tour de Table
08:24:36 [phila]
Simon Agass – Data Satellite Catapult. Activating different sorts of data, making it available. Data innovation. Denise McKenzie, OGC. Introduces self/OGC. Work being done in the SDWWG – choosing standard Geoffrey – geology, talked about work on glaciers etc. Mapping and coverage data is important (LIDAR etc) Strategic objectives for CODATA: •data science – integration. Classic techniques don't work •we need to be able to make data a[CUT]
08:24:45 [phila]
Meeting: CEO-LD Kick Off Meeting
08:24:51 [phila]
chair: phila
08:25:09 [phila]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/London_Kick_Off_meeting#Draft_Agenda
08:26:59 [phila]
Jitao: Works at Institute of Remote Sensing/CAS
08:27:11 [phila]
... Has largest amount of sat data in China, trying to open it to the world
08:27:35 [phila]
Maik: From univeristy of Berlin. Work with Jon Blower on MELODIES project
08:28:08 [phila]
-> http://www.melodiesproject.eu/ MELODIES project
08:28:58 [phila]
Maik: Talked about the project. Experimenting with different APIs etc.
08:29:47 [phila]
... quite new to the area. Joined Uni reading reently, was training at ESA
08:30:20 [phila]
... Come from a Web Developer point of view. I just want to use data easily
08:30:43 [phila]
Jianhui: From CNIC/CAS
08:31:10 [phila]
... Operate infrastructure in CAS, providing service to other scientists
08:31:15 [phila]
... inc high speed network
08:31:50 [phila]
...developing infrastructure to integrate research data within CAS which has > 100 institutes
08:32:02 [phila]
... want to provide data services to all the scientists.
08:32:23 [phila]
... For sat data, we deliver service systems, connected to 350TB of satellite data that can be downloaded freely
08:32:51 [phila]
... Open sat data - the big change is how to make it easier to find and access the data and get infro from this sat data
08:32:53 [phila]
scribe:ph
08:33:09 [phila]
Jianhui: So we want to work out how to put sat data on the open Web
08:33:21 [phila]
... Also a member of CODATA China
08:33:27 [phila]
scribe: phila
08:33:46 [phila]
jianhui: Work with Geoffrey and Simon H on this
08:34:07 [phila]
... This is a good opportunity for us to help make sast data more open more easily
08:34:17 [phila]
... and exchange data between UK and China
08:34:52 [phila]
YangGao: Surrey Space
08:35:10 [chunming]
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08:35:13 [phila]
... want to automate real time processing of satellite data
08:35:38 [phila]
... not familiar with W3C and OGC - but encouraged by what I've heard
08:35:48 [phila]
... ambition of this group coincides with our work
08:36:12 [phila]
... want to understand what we can contribute to standardising
08:36:24 [Angel]
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08:36:32 [phila]
... want to identify gaps, methodologies etc. Encouraging community to follow methods
08:36:52 [phila]
... SSTL has long standing relationship with many Chinese organisations
08:37:20 [phila]
... First remote sensing satellite acquired in China came from Surrey Space (SSTL)
08:37:41 [phila]
... helpful in disaster monitoring, urban planning etc.
08:38:27 [phila]
... very motivated to work with Chinese colleagues. Want to share lessons learnt, etc.
08:38:32 [jitao]
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08:38:38 [phila]
Payam: From University of Surrey
08:38:47 [phila]
.. work on IoT, data interop
08:38:55 [phila]
... member of the SDW WG
08:40:20 [phila]
phila: Can you, Geoffrey, say something about the UK-China angle, what are the funders asking for
08:40:53 [phila]
Geoffrey: The FO is looking for collaboration between UK and China that will help lead to innovation
08:41:13 [phila]
... I said that all you can do is stimulate the first part of that. It's up to others to begin the companies that earn the billions
08:41:30 [jtandy]
(FO = UK Foreign Office)
08:41:48 [phila]
... The widespread use of data that is freely open to all can be the basis of a lot of enconomic activity
08:42:28 [phila]
... What we need to do in teh short term is to identify the issue we're trying to address, look for the way forward. In 6 months time we should be able to set out in precise terms the work that needs to be done then to lead to future development
08:42:39 [jtandy]
s/teh/the/
08:43:32 [jtandy]
present+ jtandy
08:45:03 [SimonAgass]
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08:45:14 [MaikRiechert]
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08:45:24 [Simon_Hodson]
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08:45:43 [chunming]
present+ chunming
08:45:56 [Payam]
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08:46:05 [D_McKenzie]
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08:46:24 [jtandy]
present+ Simon_Hodson
08:46:33 [jtandy]
present+ SimonAgass
08:46:40 [jtandy]
present+ MaikRiechert
08:46:48 [jtandy]
present+ Payam
08:46:53 [jtandy]
present+ phila
08:46:57 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:46:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
08:46:59 [jtandy]
present+ D_McKenzie
08:47:15 [jtandy]
present+ jitao
08:47:21 [jtandy]
present+ Angel
08:47:28 [phila]
RRSAgent, make logs public
08:47:32 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:47:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
08:48:04 [MaikRiechert]
First correction: I'm not from the University of Berlin, but University of Reading :)
08:48:51 [chunming]
s/univeristy of Berlin/University of Reading
08:49:01 [jtandy]
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08:49:53 [chunming]
for chinese: http://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/Overview.html.zh-hans
08:50:09 [chunming]
Wiki page: https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/Edinburgh
08:50:41 [Yang]
Yang has joined #ceo-ld
08:51:00 [Payam]
present +Yang
08:51:08 [chunming]
W3C official website: http://www.w3.org/account/request
08:51:15 [phila]
https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
08:56:46 [chunming]
Wiki page for London Kick-off meeting: https://www.w3.org/2015/ceo-ld/wiki/London_Kick_Off_meeting
08:57:16 [jtandy]
D_McKenzie: can participants in this group be from countries other that UK and China?
08:57:54 [jtandy]
GeofreyBolton: that is for our group to determine- we need to outline how _we_ want to work [to reach our goals]
08:58:13 [jtandy]
s/GeofreyBolton/GeoffreyBolton/
08:58:49 [jtandy]
phila: [talks about the logistics of the group]
08:59:06 [jtandy]
phila: there are two face-to-face meetings
08:59:22 [jtandy]
... first Sapporo, for W3C TPAC
08:59:44 [chunming]
W3C TPAC 2015: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/Overview.html
08:59:52 [jtandy]
... this is not formerly part of the project, it is where the W3C/OGC Spatial Data on the Web WG will meet
09:00:29 [jtandy]
phila: the next F2F meeting will be in Beihang ... to be organised by chunming
09:00:33 [chunming]
TPAC 2015 (in Chinese): http://www.chinaw3c.org/tpac2015-overview.html
09:01:09 [jtandy]
phila: also there are the weekly teleconf calls for Spatial Data on the Web WG (SDW)
09:01:58 [jtandy]
... we'll be holding the next one tomorrow afternoon in this room (@ Royal Society no less), 2PM UK-time (UTC+1)
09:02:13 [jtandy]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PSnpJYQDgsdgZgPJEfUU0EhVfgFFYGc1WL4xUX9Dunk/edit#gid=2122201582
09:03:15 [phila]
jtandy: The Use Cases eds worked out which use cases apply to Coverages etc.
09:03:42 [phila]
http://w3c.github.io/sdw/UseCases/SDWUseCasesAndRequirements.html#arCoverageInLinkedData
09:04:53 [phila]
GB: Use cases seem very specific. Why? Just written by people in the group?
09:05:20 [phila]
jtandy: The UCs are written by the group. We wanted people to write UCs that are specific so that you can validate against it - you can find test data
09:05:56 [MaikRiechert]
(link doesn't work in Firefox, says "undefined" in all headers)
09:06:00 [phila]
jtandy: In the best practices doc, for example, we're looking at common themes for exposing GIS on the Web. We've not looked much at sat data as we knew this group was coming
09:06:29 [MaikRiechert]
using Chrome now, works ;)
09:07:03 [jtandy]
Geoffrey asks about the common themes; see here: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives
09:07:48 [MaikRiechert]
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09:08:51 [Payam]
Jeremy describes the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group's use case and best practices
09:09:38 [Payam]
there is a lack of satellite data related use-cases
09:10:21 [Payam]
one of the key goals of the the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group is to encourage people to link their data to other assets on the web
09:10:54 [Payam]
jtandy: one of the key goals of the the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group is to encourage people to link their data to other assets on the web
09:11:06 [phila]
SimonAgass: I think linking data is even more important for sat data
09:11:17 [phila]
... was disrupted by G Maps etc.
09:11:40 [phila]
... prices of sat data dropping. Sentinel, SkyBox etc.
09:11:52 [phila]
... bigger players are seeing a threat in some way to their curated data model
09:12:21 [phila]
... EO data has not been connected through the Web. It's been in isolation. best you might get is in the metadata
09:13:02 [phila]
... putting the data into context is where the value comes. Mashing it wwith other data on the Web is where the value comes. For the EO industry to move on, integrating it into the Web of data will greatly increase the value
09:13:22 [phila]
jtandy: The MELODIES project is looking at that. Pipelines etc.
09:13:30 [phila]
... (Processing pipelines)
09:14:03 [phila]
SimonAgass: We did a project earlier this year with Chile on disaster management. They had lots of sat data,m but not the resources to undertand it nad use it
09:14:24 [phila]
... we built some infrastructure that used Linked Data, NLP etc. to bring in more info
09:15:00 [phila]
GB: It strikes me that linking sat data is crucial - but what sort of other data. You want spectral range to be aware of others
09:15:09 [phila]
... not just this image but have you looked at A, b C
09:15:31 [phila]
... geological maps of coutries might be a general cover - but that's not global. it's regional
09:15:44 [phila]
... Thirdly point data - might be very ad hoc, incomplete
09:16:00 [phila]
... I think we need to think about what sort of data we want to linjk to
09:16:17 [phila]
jtandy: +1 we can link from anythign to anything but it repidly dissolves into meaninglessness
09:16:41 [jtandy]
s/repidly/rapidly/
09:16:42 [phila]
GB: Typically on the Web, you ask 'what's at this location? - but we might want to ask what are the locations that have these same properties?
09:16:55 [phila]
GB: You can't do that with ad hoc observations
09:17:03 [Simon_Hodson]
Important to be able to ask the question: at what locations is this property the case?
09:17:13 [phila]
jtandy: I think we should come back to that conversation. It's a key topic
09:17:42 [Simon_Hodson]
What needs to be done to the satellite EO data in order to be able to ask such questions?
09:17:44 [phila]
... Maybe SimonAgass could give us an insight into what you had to do with the sat data for Chile to integrate it. I guess it was mostly manual?
09:17:49 [phila]
SimonAgass: Mostly
09:18:03 [phila]
jtandy: You have to be an expert - you can't offload the set up time to a software agent
09:18:17 [phila]
jtandy: So theme 1 was linking data
09:18:23 [Simon_Hodson]
Themes for Use Cases
09:18:29 [Simon_Hodson]
Theme One: linked data.
09:18:41 [Simon_Hodson]
Theme Two: publishing data with clear semantics
09:20:44 [phila]
jtandy: Talks through more of https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives
09:21:30 [D_McKenzie]
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09:21:56 [Payam]
jtandy: a part of the work at the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group is to formalise the vocabulary that can describe geospatial data
09:23:16 [phila]
GB: It seems to me that you need to compose your query well to discovery
09:23:34 [phila]
... Would it be helpful to give advice on how to compose the right query?
09:23:56 [phila]
... Geo probs at the moment - you tend to go to Google Maps
09:24:20 [phila]
... what is the starting point, how do you ask the right question?
09:24:39 [phila]
jtandy: Implementers tend to provide portals that encode a lot of the hidden knowledge
09:25:09 [phila]
... imagine an air quality dataset. Data is being collected in a number of places that might be listed in a gazeteer
09:25:30 [phila]
... but if I use that gazeteer then there are more links/routes to discoverability
09:25:48 [phila]
GB: I think I'm getting back - do we need to have experts to use this data
09:26:12 [phila]
... So the question is, how much expertise do we expect people to have in order to be able to access the information.
09:26:41 [phila]
jtandy: Colleagues talk of the danger of giving access to data to people who don't understand it.
09:26:51 [phila]
GB: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
09:27:15 [phila]
jtandy: You shouldn't need to be an exoert to ask the question altough you may need some xertise to understand the answer
09:27:40 [phila]
D_McKenzie: And there's a danger with locations since you can gather lots of info about a location that can lead to privacy braeches
09:27:52 [phila]
s/braeches/breaches
09:28:12 [phila]
D_McKenzie: Maybe there are some datasets that you shouldn't be able to link
09:28:24 [jtandy]
s/xertise/expertise/
09:28:25 [phila]
GB: This has resonance in code breaking
09:28:47 [phila]
Payam: If you have multiple providers of data you're looking for and then finding the data within that
09:29:08 [phila]
... There's an indexing issue there
09:29:33 [phila]
... And then the interesting part, once you have the data, you don't have everything in one document, you have links to find more
09:29:42 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:29:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
09:30:10 [phila]
Jianhui: We have a platform that provies services to the scientists so we know about the requirements that they have
09:30:37 [phila]
.... Sometimes you don't jyst want a link from one image to another, you want a link to otehr info.
09:30:57 [phila]
.... They want to link at differnet scales or the whole picture
09:31:03 [phila]
... I think the use case is more complicated
09:31:18 [phila]
... So I think we need to invite some users to tell us what they're after
09:31:55 [phila]
jtandy: Drawing input from the user community is something that the sat applications catapult has been doing for the last 2 years - so maybe SimonAgass can talk about that
09:32:18 [phila]
SimonAgass: Users, yes, and the value adders. Look at some of the challenges we want to overcome.
09:32:39 [phila]
jtandy: Before we create any new tech, we should look at what problem it should solve
09:32:58 [phila]
DM: EObs has many facets
09:33:31 [phila]
jtandy: The broader SDW is about coverage data. This group here has a series of expertise in space based RS
09:33:50 [phila]
... there are use cases in the SDW that mention LIDAR, Sonar etc
09:34:03 [phila]
... there are also in situ sensing questions. It's still EO
09:34:34 [phila]
GB: I suggets we concentrate on satellite data but then ask which principles apply to otehr areas. Are there exceptions when talking about sat data
09:35:13 [phila]
GB: There was a gov report on what sensor data was available, ice sheets etc.
09:35:55 [phila]
jtandy: There are also coverage datasets that are not an observations. A coverage varies with space or time.
09:36:17 [phila]
... The Met Office has coverages that are time series of measurements at the same points for >150 years
09:36:43 [phila]
GB: There are many dataets that have both spatial and temporal slices
09:37:16 [phila]
jtandy: When we create these 4 D datasets, it's quite hard to work with them as they've been sliced and stored in one way.
09:37:36 [phila]
GB: Sampling is a fuindamental issue. Most of the maps we generate are interpolated based on point data
09:37:50 [phila]
... do we want to think about sampling distances and correlatability
09:38:11 [phila]
jtandy: That's an example of the context we need to interpret the EO data
09:39:01 [phila]
Payam: The Semantic Sensor Network - is an uppler level ontology, but you can put in specifics.
09:39:11 [phila]
jtandy: There has been a proposal for simplification
09:40:01 [phila]
jtandy: Talks about the CHARME project
09:40:13 [phila]
... people find that they want to annotate sections of data they've found
09:40:56 [phila]
-> http://charme.org.uk/ CHARME project
09:41:44 [phila]
Payam: SSN looked at the sensor devices - but if you have streaming data, you don't need to add the semantics to each itme, just the stream
09:42:09 [phila]
jtandy: The last theme is obvious... which is how to express the geographic and temporal elements
09:42:16 [phila]
... how do we write that down
09:42:24 [phila]
... there are multiple mechanisms for doing that
09:42:33 [D_McKenzie]
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09:42:43 [phila]
... we want to encourage convergence on one
09:42:57 [phila]
jtandy: Recaps on https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/BP_Consolidated_Narratives
09:43:40 [phila]
jtandy: Nothing specific there about coverage data - we can create it if we need to but I think what we've said so far can fit into those 7
09:44:18 [phila]
Jianhui: You mentioned oublishing data with clear semantics. RS data can be understood by machine?
09:44:37 [phila]
s/oublishing/publishing/
09:44:58 [phila]
jtandy: In the US there are a number of orgs creating hydrology data (Aus has 500 such orgs)
09:45:33 [phila]
... Untl recently, there was no governance on how that info was produced. Everyone had their own data model that was very hard to reconcile
09:45:43 [phila]
DM: There was a trading model for water in Aus
09:46:14 [phila]
jtandy: We need to be able to do the mapping automatically, do the crosswalks etc.
09:46:23 [phila]
DM: Google Translate for data
09:46:51 [phila]
MaikRiechert: In Melodies - land cover categories arfe different in diff countries and it's hard to map between them
09:47:14 [phila]
jtandy: In Germany you might have coniferous forest, elsewhere it's just forest
09:47:23 [phila]
... That's a relatively simple mapping
09:47:30 [phila]
... but it can be more complex
09:47:45 [phila]
... we want to be able to offload a lot of ther work to machines
09:48:03 [phila]
MaikRiechert: Yes, but you need to experiment with differnet mappings., You can't have a universal mapping
09:48:17 [phila]
... Maybe there can be default mappings from some organisations
09:48:44 [phila]
jtandy: Once you've experiement with mappings, you might want to publish 'these are the mappings that worked for me' so we should make those durable and publishable
09:49:03 [phila]
... Which brings us to questions we've not touched on - how 3rd parties can add or subtract value
09:49:09 [phila]
... Annotations is one part of it.
09:49:25 [chunming]
MELODIES project: http://www.melodiesproject.eu
09:49:32 [phila]
... trust and provenance
09:49:40 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:49:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
09:49:46 [phila]
Simon_Hodson:
09:49:57 [phila]
... Can we think about linking those attributes?
09:50:22 [phila]
... So we need to identify those attributes and see how they'd be used to describe some data
09:50:35 [phila]
jtandy: I think that's a workable approach
09:50:48 [phila]
... I haven't come with any pre-baked ideas
09:51:07 [phila]
... You're saying (SH) that these are things that scientists typically ask in a given field
09:51:41 [phila]
Simon_Hodson: it seems that what we're interested in the kind of attributes we need to think about
09:51:47 [phila]
jtandy: Physical quantities?
09:52:02 [phila]
Simon_Hodson: Yes, or an attribute that there might be pollution from a sensor or whatever
09:52:26 [phila]
jtandy: The contextual info is what you use to assess whether the data is any use for you
09:52:53 [phila]
... So starying with the attributes is common
09:53:40 [phila]
DM: Sensor Enablement is a framework for how you handle the geospatial aspects of sensors. So it's a management toolkit providing a level of consistency
09:54:08 [phila]
DM: A way to see what you're going to get from that sensor network. But you can put in info that allows you to make further decisions
09:54:33 [phila]
Payam: I think SWEET (?) has service descriptions too
09:54:44 [phila]
... so you can see the format so you know how to query
09:55:03 [jtandy]
s/SWEET (?)/SWE/
09:55:08 [phila]
DM: Standards help here, you state how you've set up your network so people know what to expect.#
09:55:16 [jtandy]
(SWE = Sensor Web Enablement)
09:57:10 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
09:57:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
10:01:52 [jianhui]
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10:02:25 [chunming]
minutes: http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html
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10:29:27 [jtandy]
phila: resumes the meeting after coffee
10:29:45 [jtandy]
... we need to set out what we would like to achieve and what we can achieve
10:29:50 [jtandy]
... and what is not in scope
10:29:53 [jtandy]
... then ...
10:30:14 [jtandy]
... all around this room know about various standards- we can determine the gaps
10:30:42 [jtandy]
... we also need to respect the goals of this working group- based on the charter of the SDW WG
10:31:23 [jtandy]
yang: (talking to phil over the break)
10:31:36 [jtandy]
... the key challenges that we need to highlight are
10:31:48 [jtandy]
... i) the diversity of satellite data payload
10:32:03 [jtandy]
... optical cameras, SAR, LIDAR, multi-spectral cameras
10:32:14 [jtandy]
... there is a diversity of instrument
10:32:30 [jtandy]
... which means that there is a diversity in different formats
10:33:02 [jtandy]
... the satellite operators [tend to] encrypt and compress the data for downloink
10:33:13 [jtandy]
s/downloink/downlink/
10:33:51 [jtandy]
yang: then once the "data product" is received [at the ground station] this compression and encryption is reversed
10:34:11 [jtandy]
... the data is then turned into products that can be discovered and used
10:34:16 [jtandy]
... [...]
10:35:09 [jtandy]
.... there is a diversity of approaches for creating these products (?) based on the heritage and background of different System suppliers
10:35:37 [jtandy]
yang: so ... we want standards- but standards close to the data product end of this process
10:35:52 [jtandy]
... nevertheless, we need to consider two phases
10:36:18 [jtandy]
... i) generic processing that can be standardised for _any_ application
10:37:09 [jtandy]
... ii) [doing stuff] for specific domains, such as agriculture etc.
10:37:18 [jtandy]
... the second phase is difficult to do
10:37:42 [jtandy]
... but there is likely to be good support from the scientific cimmunity to do this
10:37:59 [jtandy]
... but, like said this morning, we need to engage with the end users
10:38:15 [jtandy]
... we also need to set up examples that we can refer to
10:38:23 [jtandy]
phila: here's my use case ...
10:38:35 [jtandy]
... simon has a bunch of developers creating applications
10:39:12 [jtandy]
... they want to use satellite data- from Jianhui's data centre and SENTINEL (and other sources)
10:39:37 [jtandy]
... the point is that the application developer should be able to treat each of those sources in the same way
10:39:54 [jtandy]
... each 'product' will have the same structure
10:40:12 [jtandy]
... [phila points out some specific parts to consider]
10:40:37 [jtandy]
phila: we need to standardise on the 'product' - the coverage
10:41:04 [jtandy]
... then, in subsequent phases of this working group's life, there is implementation to consider
10:41:22 [jtandy]
... we will seek money / funding for a phase 2 where
10:41:50 [jtandy]
... we can engage with the satellite manufacturers / operators to implement these standards
10:42:12 [jtandy]
... so that it easy for application developers to work with multiple sources
10:43:05 [jtandy]
yang: there is a starting point for where we can standardise- [after the encryption and compression is removed]
10:43:28 [Payam]
+1 chunming
10:43:39 [jtandy]
... it would be difficult to engage with satellite manufactures earlier than this
10:43:52 [jtandy]
yang: after this we can look at data formats
10:44:40 [jtandy]
... at this point we can work with users to see how these formats can be georeferenced (?) etc.
10:44:55 [jtandy]
... if this can be clarified, this would be better
10:45:06 [jtandy]
phila: I think that this is what we're doing
10:45:18 [jtandy]
... we want to focus in the user end
10:45:39 [jtandy]
... I'm focused on the application developer who wants to access data through a set of APIs
10:45:53 [jtandy]
... they will be using http, apis, etc.
10:46:16 [jtandy]
... this is different to the [expert] users from Juanhui's organisation
10:47:04 [jtandy]
... but this is clearly different from the calibration and [detailed instrumentation] that is executed at the satellite Platform and Ground Station
10:47:49 [jtandy]
phila: [in reponse to GB's question] I see two types of users:
10:48:20 [jtandy]
... i) the regular web developer ... they understand web-stuff but have no need understand
10:48:35 [jtandy]
... the details of the satellite, the instrument, the processing chain etc.
10:48:47 [jtandy]
... this is hard- I'm asking for the moon on a stick
10:49:20 [jtandy]
... example: Geoscience Australia hackathon ... everyone created applications based on timeseries of pictures where they lived
10:49:29 [jtandy]
... not really adding value
10:49:44 [jtandy]
... given the investment to acquire and curate that data
10:50:03 [jtandy]
... in the linked data world there are many data sources that could be linked to satellite data
10:50:16 [jtandy]
... statistics etc. ...
10:50:28 [jtandy]
... it's the job of a data scientist to do this
10:50:57 [jtandy]
... but actually, we want web developers to be able to do this
10:51:02 [jtandy]
... that's our first user
10:51:16 [jtandy]
... this is the focus, the main priority
10:51:25 [Payam]
we cna consider 3 categories of users:
10:51:32 [chunming]
s/cna/can
10:51:49 [Payam]
i) users who are interested in observation and measurment data
10:52:05 [jtandy]
jianhui: we have data scientist users
10:52:34 [Payam]
ii) the second group are users who are interested in the O&M data linked to other assets on the web and/or to be able to link the data to other assets
10:52:51 [jtandy]
jitao: users in my organisation are experts in the data but don't understand the web technologies - I do, but they generally don't
10:53:08 [jtandy]
GB: so what kind of people are these?
10:53:27 [Payam]
iii) users who are interested in O&M data + linked data+ provenance data and the processes that have been applied to the data in the pipeline
10:53:44 [jtandy]
phila: I worry that [if we tightly define] the users, we will close of potential solution
10:54:29 [jtandy]
GB: why are we doing this? so that people can utilise this information creatively for their purpose
10:55:06 [jtandy]
... so we need to put the maximum usability in place whilst minimising the constraints on usage (such as the need for expertise)
10:55:47 [jtandy]
phila: looking at Payam's catelgories, the first and second (?) map to 4-star and 5-star linked data
10:56:09 [chunming]
5-start data: http://www.w3.org/2014/Talks/0123_phila_lata/#(14)
10:56:26 [jtandy]
[phila gives an overview of 5-star linked data]
10:56:37 [chunming]
6-start is data with provenance
10:56:45 [jtandy]
(also see http://5stardata.info/en/)
10:57:16 [jtandy]
Payam: we can look at the details for all these groups-
10:57:50 [jtandy]
... but we can start by looking at the core elements for the first category
10:58:02 [jtandy]
... and then add modules for categories 2 and 3
10:58:23 [jtandy]
GB: let's look at the deficit here ... it seems to be expertise
10:58:41 [jtandy]
... a lack of expertise prevents people from using the data
10:59:04 [jtandy]
... if you're an expert, you can probably navigate this anyway
10:59:11 [jtandy]
MaikRiechert: [missed]
10:59:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ceo-ld
10:59:51 [jtandy]
GB: there's one category of users that are clear ... that's students, the educational value of this data is huge
11:00:34 [MaikRiechert]
different data representation could map to different user types, e.g. a user without expert knowledge could use a WMS endpoint, whereas an expert user could use a more direct access to the data, like WCS, GeoSPARQL, or other APIs/formats
11:01:04 [jtandy]
jianhui: there are many cases where
11:01:32 [phila]
jianhui: There are cases where people just want to share data with their colleagues. Location data etc and they'll make a map of where they went - social media style
11:01:49 [phila]
jtandy: So they're creating a derived product using sat data as input
11:02:12 [phila]
... one example is burn mapping after wildfires in Greece so that funds can be allocated to rejuvenation
11:02:41 [phila]
SimonAgass: That applies in an industrial org as well. Imagine a distributed org - they want to share data without losing control
11:03:12 [phila]
phila: We're not doing Access Control - LD doesn't mean LOAD
11:03:18 [phila]
s/LOAD/LOD/
11:03:35 [phila]
jtandy: Summarises - assume data has been downlinked, decrypted and put in a format ready for exchange.
11:03:49 [phila]
... We don't want to try nad tell manufacturers to re-engineer their satellites
11:04:08 [phila]
MaikRiechert: There are different levels of processing. If they want to expose an earlier level they can
11:05:24 [jtandy]
phila: there a standard in this space already- from W3C ...
11:05:42 [jtandy]
... RDF Data Cube, DCAT, PROV-O etc.
11:06:19 [jtandy]
Payam: agrees- we can find existing technologies
11:07:21 [phila]
jtandy: You can use satellites to look at the surface roughness of the oceans to see how windy it is
11:07:44 [phila]
... typically those things are used to provide wind speed and direction variation over an area
11:08:05 [phila]
... I'm sure it's possible to create a time series over a specific point but it's not done in meteorology as a rule
11:08:06 [jtandy]
phila: can I ask an embarrassing question- I've looked at lots of satellite data
11:08:17 [phila]
GB: matching data points is always difficult
11:08:37 [jtandy]
phila: is GeoTIFF a coverage
11:08:44 [jtandy]
... or an image
11:08:51 [jtandy]
[discussion]
11:10:16 [phila]
jtandy: Creating an OWL ontology from the Application schema that came out of the coverages WG sounds easy. However... what Peter baumann has done is to build something that is bound to the XMl sturcture, rather than the domain model
11:10:44 [phila]
... There is a coverages standard ISO19??? - that could probably be exported as an OWL ontology
11:10:55 [phila]
MaikRiechert: Auto generated OWL is typically horrible
11:11:17 [phila]
jtandy: Kerry calls it non-OWLy-OWL
11:11:26 [phila]
... You need an expert to interpret that
11:11:35 [phila]
... But there's a great description of what a coverage includes.
11:12:13 [phila]
jtandy: A set of domain values in any number of dimensional spaces, and you have a set of values that you map on to that. The rest of the complexity comes from expressing the space and time aspects
11:12:39 [chunming]
s/ISO19???/ISO 19107
11:12:39 [phila]
jtandy: Can we give coordinates without giving gthe CRS
11:12:48 [phila]
DM: SOme of that work is happening in otehr places
11:12:58 [chunming]
s/gthe/the
11:13:14 [chunming]
s/otehr/other
11:13:47 [phila]
jtandy: SOme of the reaklly valuable thing to come out of the coverage implementation work that peter Baumann has done... rather than having to iterate over each point, you can define a start point and a step and a grid description
11:13:55 [phila]
... those things don't appear in the ISO model
11:14:10 [phila]
... you could provide those things in the metadata - the rectified grids
11:14:24 [phila]
... would that be helpful?
11:14:36 [phila]
GB: I think that's a serious problem... recoverability
11:15:30 [phila]
... Say you have a bunch of school children in South Africa and they come up with something brilliant. And people thing that's so important and so profound and we'd need to go and track back to understand where their data came from
11:15:55 [phila]
jtandy: The US National Climate - they have the 'line of sight' concept between data and application
11:16:23 [phila]
... You may not be too concerned aout the provenance info but a user might so that they can determine whetehr to trust the product.
11:16:46 [jtandy]
s/US National Climate/US National Climate Assessment/
11:16:47 [phila]
GB: Not all users need to know everything but there is need to be able to trace
11:17:20 [phila]
jtandy: So we've agreed where we start our standardisation path
11:17:40 [phila]
... we want to support developers who just want to get the job done
11:17:58 [phila]
... There are people who will need to track back the provenance
11:18:32 [phila]
jtandy: if you just have the data, that sounds limiting. Here's a GeoTIFF
11:19:00 [phila]
... without any more background
11:19:08 [phila]
... that's still a coverage but you don't know where it came from
11:19:15 [phila]
... A lot of developers might be in that space
11:19:34 [phila]
... A farmer just wants to know whetehr he should plant what where
11:19:43 [phila]
DM: But he does need to be able to rust the data
11:21:11 [phila]
Yang: Is there a legality issue? The data source usually owns the data
11:21:26 [chunming]
s/rust/trust
11:22:03 [jtandy]
[phila cites his next working group: Open License ...]
11:22:38 [phila]
Yang: Even if you put a time stamp on the data - there might be other satellites that acquire similar data at similar times - can the user choose differnet sources and differnet times, so the prov is important
11:23:05 [phila]
-> http://w3c.github.io/ole/charter.html Open License Expression WG (draft)
11:23:18 [phila]
Yang: Explores provenance issues
11:24:29 [phila]
phila: Talks about applkication specificity
11:24:49 [Payam]
s/applkication/application
11:24:58 [phila]
SimonAgass: So is there a group that doesn't want provenance?
11:25:09 [phila]
jtandy: There's a group that are happy to assume that someone else has looked at the prov
11:25:46 [phila]
DM: using government data comes with an inherent trust level (justified or otherwise)
11:25:58 [chunming]
s/applkication/application
11:26:25 [jtandy]
(seems like we have two categories: application developers and data scientists?)
11:26:33 [phila]
chunming: So there's a requirement that we want to be able to query this data through a kind of timestamp - I want to query some portion of data from adefined time...
11:26:48 [phila]
... one of my colleagues is trying to develop new algorithms with time
11:26:56 [phila]
... this is a new research area in the database domain
11:27:17 [phila]
jitao: This kind of data has already been included in sat data
11:27:53 [phila]
jtandy: So if we have 2 typesof user - app developers who make assumptions about data
11:28:14 [phila]
... and we have people we rudelu call data scientists who really want to be able to check the prov
11:28:20 [phila]
DM: And one feeds into the other
11:29:03 [phila]
jtandy: Payam you said that we could start with teh core set of things that the devs want and then add the modules that the data scientists want
11:29:10 [phila]
... that seems like a useful approach to me
11:29:25 [phila]
jtandy: People are going to want to get a lumo of data out of the big whole
11:29:43 [phila]
... by starting from the web developer, we start simple
11:30:33 [jtandy]
phila: I'm still struggling with my inexperience here- what does coverage data look like
11:31:08 [jtandy]
deniseMcK: also, what does a coverage look like in the context of this group?
11:31:31 [jtandy]
phila: so for example, if I have a "coverage" can I access a single point?
11:37:03 [chunming]
GEOGLAM initiative
11:37:11 [phila]
-> http://www.geoglam-crop-monitor.org/ GeoGLAM
11:37:29 [Payam]
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/bigdata/
11:37:44 [chunming]
UN Big Data for Official Satallite
11:38:11 [chunming]
s/Satallite/Statistics
11:38:47 [chunming]
scribe: chunming
11:39:36 [chunming]
Payam: next meeting will be in Beijing
11:40:34 [chunming]
jtandy: we will find the community that will support the coverage data
11:41:52 [chunming]
Simon Agass: not only download data, but also providing some infor to describe it.
11:42:19 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:42:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
11:42:24 [chunming]
jtandy: talk about relevant data, what is relevant
11:44:06 [chunming]
Simon Agass: example of population analysis; tag images; [missing]
11:47:00 [chunming]
... adition, search for , damige assessment, need remote locations;
11:48:19 [chunming]
jtandy: so in the example, the active volcano should be a relevant archived datasets.
11:49:18 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:49:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
11:49:19 [chunming]
jtandy: is there introduction of MELODIES project?
11:50:06 [chunming]
Maik Riechart: introduce of MELODIES projects
11:50:40 [chunming]
... link data set and provide meanings.
11:50:53 [chunming]
... don't know how to link with datasets, apis,
11:51:10 [chunming]
... if there's kind of document of this, could be useful
11:51:46 [MaikRiechert]
land cover example: http://melodiesproject.eu/content/challenges-mapping-land-cover
11:52:41 [chunming]
Denise McKenzie: [missing]
11:53:32 [chunming]
Phila: with emphasis this meeting, try help working group deliverible on coverage linked data
11:53:42 [chunming]
... one of doing is best practice document
11:53:51 [jtandy]
(Denise talked about using the NASA Space Apps Challenge hackathons as a source of questions that developers might have when working with earth observation data)
11:54:37 [chunming]
Maik Riechart: where the place to discuss?
11:54:49 [chunming]
phila: working group
11:56:51 [chunming]
... talk about provanance; talked about sharing on the web, encourage people to do that;
11:57:22 [chunming]
... second stage is about implementation, testing, encourage people to do impl.
11:57:37 [chunming]
... talked about what is coverage data.
11:58:04 [chunming]
... category, infoset that may be relevant to the image
11:59:18 [chunming]
DM: large meta data vocabulary. on geospatial data
11:59:49 [chunming]
... for coverage, its a subset (?)
12:00:44 [chunming]
phila: coverage data is - the rdf data cube (3 dim), or two dim (table), in RDF, or json format. this could be useful.
12:00:54 [chunming]
jtandy: for multi-dim datasets
12:01:24 [chunming]
... it could be cut to horizental pieces, and tiles, ...
12:01:48 [chunming]
... use RDF data cube, that related to different access patterns
12:02:53 [chunming]
phila: talked about image accessible (accessibility), that might be relevant.
12:03:29 [chunming]
jtandy: image can be data
12:03:47 [chunming]
... take the value of a pixel
12:05:03 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:05:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
12:05:03 [chunming]
[morning session closed]
12:34:29 [jtandy]
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13:20:58 [Payam]
phila: there are three areas that we would like to focus:
13:23:01 [Payam]
i) metadata ii) access requirement and iii) representation options
13:24:43 [Payam]
phila: discusses ways of describing geospatial datasets and existing standards
13:24:49 [chunming]
data linking to/from coverage data is a kind of access req.
13:26:11 [Payam]
phila: what is a dataset? how do you define a dataset?
13:26:13 [chunming]
phila: how do you describe dataset?
13:27:23 [Payam]
discussion on using Dublin core to describe a dataset
13:28:30 [Payam]
difference between the dataset and distributions of the the same time
13:28:42 [Payam]
s/ the same time/the same data
13:28:51 [Payam]
s/the same time/the same data
13:29:30 [Payam]
distinction between the actual concept of the dataset and distributions of the dataset
13:30:47 [Payam]
jtandy: sometimes different systems use different identifiers for the same data and it is not obvious that for example two systems refer to the same data
13:31:36 [Payam]
jtandy: it is important to note that the same data can appear in different systems and maybe with different identifiers
13:32:35 [Payam]
GB: is this a problem that needs to be solved?
13:33:24 [Payam]
MaikRiechert: it is sometimes not clear what people refer to as a dataset
13:35:11 [Payam]
jtandy: reads the definition of dataset from DCAT
13:37:59 [Payam]
phila: we need to decide how we are going to define a "coverage"
13:39:15 [Payam]
phila: Access requirements: to we need to be able to access the individual observations?
13:42:48 [Payam]
jtandy: granularity questions refers to the issue that if one can reference individual items (e.g. cells in an image) and have direct access
13:43:25 [Payam]
phila: talks about RDF data cube
13:44:08 [chunming]
access requirement: for a third party to reference/access to a point/subset/part/whole of the dataset
13:44:14 [Jitao]
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13:48:38 [Payam]
jtandy: talks about the observation in RDF data cube
13:49:31 [chunming]
W3C RDF Data Cube Vocabulary: http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-data-cube/
13:52:51 [Payam]
Jianhui: RDF data cube provides the actual data not only the metadata
13:54:05 [Payam]
Jianhui: if we publish the remote sensing data as RDF we may need to provide new tools to allow users to use these data
13:55:02 [Payam]
Jianhui: if we have very large RDF described data, search and query will be slow
13:55:48 [Payam]
phila: you don't necessarily store it as RDF... you access and process it in other formats...
13:59:10 [Payam]
phila: you need to extract the part you need to transform it to RDF
13:59:57 [Payam]
Payam: or take the attributes that you need out of RDF and handle/process them separately (e.g. index the attributes outside RDF)
14:01:31 [Payam]
chunming: we should focus on interoperability and sharing dat not the implmentation
14:02:11 [Payam]
s/dat/data
14:02:12 [chunming]
s/dat/sata
14:02:31 [chunming]
s/sataa/data
14:03:43 [chunming]
linked data segments: http://linkeddatafragments.org
14:08:54 [Payam]
Yang: is it possible to extend the current satellite data format to help to understand [interpret] the data easily
14:09:40 [Payam]
Yang: NASA remote sensing data: http://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/rsd/RemoteSensing.html
14:09:46 [phila]
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14:10:14 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:10:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
14:10:55 [Payam]
http://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/rsd/RemoteSensing.html
14:11:10 [SimonAgass]
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14:12:07 [Payam]
http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov
14:12:26 [Payam]
http://mirador.gsfc.nasa.gov
14:14:46 [jtandy]
http://mirador.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/mirador/granlist.pl?page=1&location=(-90,-180),(90,180)&dataSet=AMSRERR_CPR&version=002&allversion=002&startTime=2011-07-06T00:00:01Z&endTime=2011-07-06T23:59:59Z&keyword=AMSRERR_CPR&longname=AMSR-E%20Rainfall%20Subset,%20collocated%20with%20the%20CloudSat%20track&CGISESSID=eaf185b8f1dfaa584283d0ecbbe2d37d&prodpg=http://disc.gsfc.nasa.gov/datacollection/AMSRERR_CPR_V002.html
14:15:05 [Payam]
http://mirador.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/mirador/granlist.pl?page=1&location=(-90,-180),(90,180)&dataSet=GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H&version=001&allversion=001&startTime=2015-08-02&endTime=2015-08-02T23:59:59Z&keyword=GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H&prodpg=http://disc.gsfc.nasa.gov/datacollection/GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H_V001.html&longname=GLDAS%20CLM%20Land%20Surface%20Model%20L4%203%20Hourly%201.0%20x%201.0%20degree%20Subsetted&CGISESSID=64ecf6a8bef8d413aeb10d3223c7af28
14:15:36 [D_McKenzie]
D_McKenzie has joined #CEO-LD
14:15:47 [Payam]
link to metadata: http://hydro1.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/data/s4pa//GLDAS_V1/GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H/2015/214/GLDAS_CLM10SUBP_3H.A2015214.2100.001.2015253203046.grb.xml
14:17:06 [SimonAgass]
http://data.satapps.org/
14:20:22 [Payam]
Yang: this machine readable/interpretable data shouyld not replace human readable (i.e. HTML) represetnation
14:20:38 [Payam]
s/shouyld/should
14:24:43 [Payam]
GB: we should be assuring that data and inferences made from it are accessible to wider groups in the society and not only the scientists who work with that data
14:28:40 [Payam]
Simon: we should focus on the application, added value and use-cases that we couldn't do a certain task without the metadata
14:30:25 [chunming]
jtandy: HDF is commonly used by satellite data, but it is not accepted by browser :-)
14:33:33 [Payam]
GB: summarises what we have discussed:
14:33:34 [chunming]
phila: idealy, we want to create a user agent, it read a URL in special pattern, and return a dataset in a text-format, structural, semantic/metadata rich way.
14:33:52 [SimonAgass]
Some sample data from Sentinel 1 http://sedas.satapps.org/download-sample-data/
14:34:22 [Payam]
GB:what we discussed: purpose, function and ways to deliver-
14:39:34 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:39:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
14:54:48 [Payam]
Payam has joined #ceo-ld
14:55:00 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:55:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila
14:55:09 [MaikRiechert]
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14:56:12 [phila]
scribe: phila
14:56:23 [phila]
chair: Jeremy
14:57:08 [phila]
jtandy: Checks who will be here tomorrow
14:57:41 [phila]
... invites those who won't to express any thing they wanted to raise
14:57:55 [phila]
GB: Planning to circulate a notes of today's meeting
14:58:13 [phila]
SimonAgass: Nothing at the minute to raise.
14:58:31 [phila]
Payam: Are we going to link what we're discussing here with the SDW WG
14:58:38 [phila]
jtandy: Yes
14:59:16 [phila]
... Something I wanted to do today - was to remind ourselves of the 7 themes being discussed by the broader group wrt BPs
14:59:32 [phila]
jtandy: So it is necessary toi partition the work between this group and the SDW Wg
14:59:40 [phila]
... and I'd like to achive that before we finish tomorrow.
14:59:58 [phila]
Payam: This is a new type of accessing data from satellites
15:00:26 [phila]
... so we'll need funding to develop tools. So if we convert some NASA data, how do we know we've done it right?
15:00:47 [phila]
jtandy: We need to engage the data publishing and using community and get them to build
15:00:57 [phila]
Payam: We're atlking specifically about satellite data
15:01:08 [phila]
jtandy: And if we have BPs, how do we evaluate whether they have met the BPs
15:01:19 [phila]
... and advice on hwo to do it
15:01:32 [phila]
SimonAgass: We need to manage expectations on this too.
15:01:56 [phila]
... From my experience of saying we;re going to make EO data available raises expectations
15:02:16 [phila]
... This is a stage for describing data and making it available, but there are stages between the satellite and this stage and after it has been published
15:02:22 [chunming]
s/we;re/we're
15:02:29 [phila]
jtandy: +1
15:02:47 [phila]
... we're not deadling with the data processing. We're only looking at the data publishing part of the story
15:02:59 [phila]
... So a task for tomorrow, we need to be clear on what our scope is
15:03:07 [chunming]
s/atlking/talking
15:03:43 [phila]
phila: I think we're close to having that definition based on what Simon just said
15:03:50 [phila]
jtandy: DM: The Interface
15:04:05 [phila]
s/jtandy: DM: The Interface/DM: The Interface...
15:04:19 [phila]
jtandy: Maybe think of it as a contract
15:04:38 [phila]
SimonAgass: It does imply a level of handshake agreement
15:04:47 [phila]
jtandy: So a searching question ...
15:05:07 [phila]
... When we're doing action planning for tomorrow, we need to know how much time each of us can commit
15:05:43 [phila]
... In order for us to be successful, some actual work has to be done. We need to cut our cloth accordingly
15:06:11 [phila]
SimonAgass: there are activities that fall into this. One in particular on integrating LD
15:06:36 [phila]
... Broker Technology 4 EO
15:06:52 [phila]
jtandy: That gives us a pathway towards future funding?
15:07:13 [phila]
SimonAgass: There's a potential alignment that allows me to spend some time on this as it's about LD and EO
15:07:18 [phila]
... but not a massive amount of time
15:07:35 [phila]
GB: I think the number of testbeds can be highly informative at this stage even if they're simple
15:08:38 [phila]
Payam: I think Yang can help. Everuone in my dept is funded by a project so I can't pull people off those.
15:08:52 [phila]
... I can perhaps do a little
15:09:06 [phila]
jtandy: And you're editor of the SDW WG's BP doc
15:09:15 [phila]
jtandy: Any overlap with any of those projects?
15:09:50 [phila]
Payam: We do semantic models for smart cities etc. There are validation issues etc. I can ask someone there to join the meetings/check something.
15:10:23 [phila]
Yang: I think if we could know a little bit better what sort of commitment in terms of time you're looking for
15:10:47 [phila]
... In general we're very supportive of this work.
15:11:27 [phila]
... We were chatting earlier - this forum is so useful - I managed to come up with a project - I'll invite people to Surrey to look at proposals to funding bodies.
15:11:51 [phila]
... When we're working on those proposals maybe we can do some linking.
15:12:17 [phila]
jtandy: In terms of that future proposal... what's the time scale from now on until somefunding arrives
15:12:48 [phila]
yang: After the time of this project. Any bidding process will create new ideas in its own right.
15:13:03 [phila]
yang: Lots of potential from this WG
15:13:23 [phila]
Payam: We can contribute to use cases of course
15:13:50 [phila]
jtandy: So content review, editorial, discussion, but not investigative work
15:14:08 [phila]
jtandy: It's important that we don't over commit.
15:15:02 [phila]
SimonH: It would be good to pull out examples. It will be most useful for me to comment on the documents.
15:15:24 [phila]
jtandy: Are you content that we're working in a way that's compatible with CODATA
15:16:09 [phila]
SH: I think I'd mention the connections I've raised. GODAN, GeoGlam
15:16:55 [phila]
SH: CODATA does a lot of work on policy around EO. We are very active in that. Just submitted a white paper on the benefits of data sharing.
15:17:06 [phila]
... We'd like to contribute more to the tech standards level
15:17:19 [phila]
... We're also very active in training
15:17:49 [phila]
... So this initiative provides a useful opportunity to affect the development process.
15:18:29 [phila]
DM: This is a topic to bring up with Barbara Ryan (?) at Eye on Earth next week.
15:18:41 [phila]
SH: I'll be there as well
15:18:56 [phila]
DM: OGC has 3 staff going to Geo in November
15:19:23 [phila]
... The plenary could be a useful place to validate any requirements we have by then.
15:19:51 [phila]
DM: I won't be at GEO but Mark Reichart will (OGC CEO)
15:20:01 [phila]
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15:20:38 [phila]
jtandy: Before the break, Phil was scribing a list. I have a similar list.
15:20:44 [phila]
Topic: Issues
15:21:07 [phila]
jtandy: First on the list I think we need to talk about is identifiers for the dataset and the distribution
15:21:19 [phila]
... is that a useful thing that we can talk about for coverage data?
15:21:22 [phila]
Yes
15:21:45 [phila]
jtandy: Also when talking about IDs, we need to be able to refer to slices, or subsets or individual cells
15:21:56 [phila]
... Can we provide patterns for slices and subsets?
15:22:25 [phila]
... What vocabulary would be use to link a subset to its parent
15:22:31 [phila]
... VoID does that already.
15:23:18 [phila]
... The need to be able to describe the relationship between a dataset and its parts
15:23:53 [phila]
-> http://www.w3.org/TR/void/ VoID
15:26:01 [phila]
jtandy: We'll need to see how things like VoID map onto our concerns
15:26:12 [phila]
jtandy: next on my list - how do we discover the dataset?
15:27:01 [phila]
... Before you work with the data you have to find it so it needs to be discoverable, i.e. have discovery metadata
15:27:09 [phila]
... There's the ISO model
15:27:26 [phila]
... and GeoDCAT-AP which matches DCAT and ISO 19115
15:27:48 [phila]
... Earlier we talked about discovering datasets as a whole. We talked about granularity
15:28:37 [Simon_Hodson]
Simon_Hodson has joined #ceo-ld
15:28:40 [phila]
... Irrespective of the dataset, every time you produce a coverage, there's metadata about the structure, the observed properties, the physical properties that the coverage provides. ISO19123 provides a way of doing thatm as does RDF data CUbe
15:28:49 [phila]
... So we can describe how it works inside.
15:29:39 [phila]
... When we want to share data - if it needs to be downloaded before you can access the metadata - that's not going to work. So the metadata needs to be usable by a user agent, preferably a browser that doesn't rely on a plugin.
15:29:41 [chunming]
s/thatm/that
15:30:13 [phila]
jtandy: Logically that probably means multiple formats including RDF
15:30:55 [phila]
... Given that we need this metadata that is usable, how do we make it parsable by standard search engines?
15:31:33 [phila]
... When you publish your data, you want people to find it - it would be easier if they can find it in their usual search engine
15:32:04 [phila]
jtandy: We need to be able to say 'this is how you publish your discovery metadata'
15:32:37 [phila]
... The site Yang pointed us to included a lot of human readable content that you can browser through - we need to keep that and provide a machine readable path
15:33:03 [phila]
... So our metadata should support human and machine browsing
15:33:41 [phila]
Yang: We want search engines to be able to find our data, yes. That sort of result can be highlighted in future documetnation.
15:33:53 [phila]
... I don't know to what extent that can be defined in this project.
15:35:36 [chunming]
phila: data on the web best practice (almost done by w3c) - general staff on dataset share on the web
15:35:45 [chunming]
... we are focusing on coverage data
15:35:51 [phila]
-> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html Data on the Web Best Practices
15:36:08 [phila]
phila: That covers general stuff about publishing data on the Web.
15:36:53 [phila]
jianhui: I think it's very ambitious to publish scientific/research data to the Web - but maybe we should talk to the scientific users. Do they think it's a good way or not? I'm not sure.
15:37:12 [phila]
jianhui: Maybe should make some demonstration or testbed to show the scientists - they're the end users.
15:37:28 [phila]
... I think that's important
15:37:53 [phila]
... SCientists might have differnet views on this.
15:39:18 [phila]
jianhui: This idea of publishing scientific data on the Web is correct or not. Raw data - if teh resolution is high - might be >1 GB. If we publish to the Web 0 how can we get this data?
15:40:33 [phila]
jianhui: Can we pubslish all that data? Do the scientists want it or not? Secodnly - what about the infrastructure - can it be supported or not.
15:43:26 [phila]
phila: refers to http://philarcher.org/diary/2015/50shadesofno/
15:44:09 [phila]
GB: Years ago, it wasn't difficult to publish your data in the paper your wrote. People could see the data and decide whether you were right or wrong
15:45:10 [phila]
... The challenge now is that we base our science on enormous amounts of data. It's a real challenge to make it open enough for someone else to go through and see if you're right.
15:45:32 [phila]
jtandy: But I do think it's important that we recognise that our infratsructure puts some restrictions on us.
15:45:55 [phila]
... In our work, we see that our data will be bigger by an order of magnitude in 10 years.
15:46:08 [phila]
... So we're talking about uploading sofware to the data
15:46:44 [phila]
... In some cases, you might be able to download the whole dataset. But it might be that it's so large that, today, you have send an e-mail to a colleague ask them to courier it to you.
15:46:57 [phila]
... Or you might be possible to open an API
15:47:33 [phila]
... So there are many paths - but the first step is to publish the metadata
15:48:10 [phila]
GB: I agree that it's not easy, and maybe impossible
15:48:46 [phila]
... But if I publish a paper revealing the secret of life, it's worth accessing hte PetaBytes of data
15:49:02 [phila]
chunming: What we want to do is not just copy how scientists share their data now, we want to do it better
15:49:06 [phila]
... amking better links
15:49:16 [phila]
... refer to a small portion of their data etc.
15:49:48 [phila]
... Of course, if we just implement using today's tech, we'd face problems with scalability
15:50:29 [phila]
SimonAgass: We have to assume that tech will improve - so we don't need to wait until the scalable tech is available.
15:51:01 [phila]
jtandy: And if we can build demonstrators that prove what we're trying to achieve, even accepting the constraints of bandwidth etc.
15:52:10 [phila]
GB: CERN is a good example. They don't make all their data available - there's nowhere like it. But they do have a large internal community that check each other.
15:52:25 [phila]
... That's a sort of compromise as the amount of data they have is so large
15:52:40 [phila]
jtandy: But they may still use the same technology within their computers.
15:53:20 [phila]
Yang: If you need more justification.. one fact - any research council funded project now will require that the data has to be publicly accessible.
15:53:38 [phila]
... So IT departments are adding DOIs for datasets as well as papers.
15:53:56 [phila]
... I don't think there is any leeway for not publishing your data.
15:54:26 [phila]
Yang: Anything published after 2016 will be under this rule
15:55:11 [phila]
jtandy: I think that was one of teh requiremetns from the Royal Society's work on science an an open enterprise.
15:55:19 [chunming]
s/hte/the
15:55:43 [phila]
... As people are now applying for funding that will deliver after 2016, they're already including the costs of publishing data persistently.
15:56:00 [phila]
SH: It's a requirement in Horizon 2020
15:56:27 [phila]
jtandy: So when we're talking about publishing the data itself... we need to ask ourselves is how do we encode the data itself.
15:56:36 [phila]
... is it feasible or sensible to encode the whole lot in RDF
15:57:00 [phila]
Payam: We came up with a set of smart city datasets for testing against
15:57:07 [phila]
... we annotated the data nad put it on the Web.
15:57:28 [phila]
... You give people the data and the tools. And then you see what the problems are
15:57:29 [chunming]
s/nad/and
15:58:02 [phila]
jtandy: I think that's a good idea. There are mid scale datasets - ones big enough to be problematic but not obviously too huge
15:58:06 [Payam]
smart city dataset example:http://iot.ee.surrey.ac.uk:8080 (data and metadata)
15:58:16 [Payam]
and tools
15:58:45 [phila]
Yang: This is not just going to benefit the current audience. Democratisation is not just wamted in the space business. People are working on reducing the amount of data needed to be downlinked etc.
15:58:54 [phila]
... Lots of effort looking into that.
15:59:08 [phila]
... This effort can merge with others in the space domain#
15:59:22 [phila]
... We may be being slightly optimistic about solving everything
15:59:44 [phila]
... but as space people we want people to be able to access space assets from mobile.
16:00:23 [phila]
jtandy: If we might merge with others, do we know who that might be now?
16:01:09 [Payam]
CCSDS: http://public.ccsds.org/default.aspx (standards from space domain)
16:01:12 [phila]
Yang: CCSDS might be relevant http://public.ccsds.org/default.aspx
16:01:46 [phila]
SH: There's a meeting coming up with them and CODATA
16:02:03 [phila]
... CCSDS is more on the data management, long term management
16:03:13 [phila]
jtandy: Might be worth letting them know about the work we're doing but at this point we may not expect them to have something for us
16:03:39 [Payam]
https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=CCDS+standards&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&gfe_rd=cr&ei=p7UKVpiSCuHH8gf5kKfoAg#q=satellite+data+site:ccsds.org
16:03:40 [phila]
action: We just identified a stakeholder - we ought to identify other stakeholders that we should contact
16:04:12 [phila]
Payam: I see that CCSDS has a satellite data model
16:04:44 [phila]
Yang: The WG I sit in within CCSDS is specifically about intelligent systems for spacecraft.
16:05:33 [phila]
Yang: You could propose to start something with them
16:06:00 [phila]
jtandy: We'll create a workplan on what we're going to do
16:06:28 [phila]
... I suggest Simon H takes point on that potential relationship
16:07:21 [phila]
jtandy: We';re talking about how to encode the data. Obviously there are choices - NetCDF, HD5, etc. Many formats we can use and I think we can provide guidance on when it is best to use each type.
16:07:53 [phila]
... In particular, it's an interesting question to ask what types od data encoding (not metadata) might work in a browser
16:08:01 [chunming]
s/We';re/We're
16:08:08 [phila]
... can it consume it and display it with Canvas or Web GL
16:08:26 [chunming]
s/od data/of data
16:08:32 [phila]
... We should understand when there times when data can work nicely wth the browser etc.
16:08:42 [phila]
... We have talked a lot about how to query the data and interract with it.
16:09:23 [phila]
... One of the things we shoujld be looking at - what functions should an API offer. Query by geoposition, time (vital for smart cities), Simon talked about the observed quantity
16:09:32 [chunming]
s/shoujld/should
16:09:42 [phila]
... These are all examples of starting points for people to interract with EO data.
16:09:52 [phila]
... We talked about Strabon, Linked Data API
16:10:04 [phila]
... How difficult SPARQL is to work with etc.
16:10:22 [phila]
... Lots of work we could do to turn the conversation on APIs actionable.
16:10:32 [phila]
... We talked about annotations on datasets
16:10:39 [phila]
... The CHARME project should help there
16:10:50 [phila]
... being able to refer to bits of datasets or the whole dataset
16:10:59 [phila]
... How do I identify subsets, slices etc.
16:11:04 [phila]
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16:11:43 [phila]
jtandy: To support users/non-experts - we need to support provenance to describe the processing chain or how my subset has been extracted.
16:12:09 [phila]
... We'll certainly want to describe the provenance in terms of the platform, source etc. - which maps to the Semantic Sensor Network.
16:12:24 [phila]
... Wheredid this come from (processing chain, platform).
16:12:38 [phila]
... And for the non-expert, how can a data publisher make an assessment of quality
16:13:23 [phila]
jtandy: Phil pointed me to http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/vocab-dqg.html
16:13:42 [phila]
jtandy: Are there significant gaps?
16:14:01 [phila]
Payam: Part of this data is live so that fact changes the way you handle it.
16:14:22 [phila]
GB: What I suggest we do is to start writing our report in note form tomorrow moring.
16:14:32 [phila]
s/moring/morning/
16:15:37 [phila]
phila: There are things that are relevant to us that are being covered elsewhere (BPs, SSN etc)
16:16:03 [phila]
GB: We can identify the overlaps, the other one is where we can bets use our efforts in some sort of test bed to be developed, rather than in an ad hoc way
16:16:12 [phila]
... So who else do we want to inform about this.
16:17:21 [chunming]
phila: as jianhui said, coverage data could be huge, need way to access a portion of data
16:17:29 [phila]
phila: Makes general points about scalability
16:17:36 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:17:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/29-ceo-ld-minutes.html phila