14:55:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:55:17 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-mobile-a11y-irc
14:55:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:55:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:55:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:55:21 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:55:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:55:22 <trackbot> Date: 24 September 2015
14:55:26 <Kathy>  zakim, this will be 6283
14:55:27 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Kathy
14:55:56 <Kathy> rrsagent, make log world
14:56:04 <Kathy> chair: Kathy
14:56:14 <Kathy> present+
14:56:25 <Kathy> present +
14:56:30 <Kathy> present+ Kathy
14:56:50 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
14:56:50 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy
15:03:59 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:04:40 <Alan_Smith> + alan
15:04:46 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
15:04:46 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, alan
15:04:53 <Kathy> present + Henny
15:04:56 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
15:04:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, alan
15:05:06 <Kathy> present+ Henny
15:05:09 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
15:05:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, alan, Henny
15:06:41 <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
15:06:49 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:41 <Henny> Henny has joined #mobile-a11y
15:09:09 <Henny> Could you post the link again? I missed it earlier as wasn't logged in.
15:10:08 <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
15:10:13 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:10:21 <jeanne> present+
15:10:40 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
15:10:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne
15:10:58 <jeanne> rrsagent, make logs public
15:12:19 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/index.php?title=Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29&action=edit&section=2
15:12:42 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:13:19 <marcjohlic> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29
15:14:17 <marcjohlic> scribe:  marcjohlic
15:14:23 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:15:16 <marcjohlic> TOPIC:  2.5.1 Touch
15:15:50 <marcjohlic> Language was pulled in from keyboard to update 2.5.1
15:16:01 <marcjohlic> "2.5.1 Touch: All functionality of the content is operable through a touch interface without requiring specific timings for individual touch gestures, except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints. (Level A)"
15:16:19 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #mobile-a11y
15:16:53 <marcjohlic> Kim:  What can be done with touch that can't be done with keyboard
15:17:41 <Detlev> q+
15:17:41 <marcjohlic> KW:  Gregg added a comment on what might not be possible or practical under the updated 2.5.1
15:18:40 <marcjohlic> DF:  What if more than one finger is involved - if you have multi-touch.
15:19:03 <Detlev> q-
15:19:24 <marcjohlic> JS:  It seems as though the path exception is not the best way to go about this because we always use the path exception for keyboard, but it does not really apply to touch
15:19:36 <marcjohlic> ... leaning more toward saying not everything needs to be accessible by touch
15:19:58 <marcjohlic> ... thing that are available by touch are also available when VO is turned on
15:20:21 <marcjohlic> KW:  Except we don't have anything under WCAG that applies to a specific AT
15:20:58 <marcjohlic> JS:  Will try to go back and look up the specific wording that was proposed - may have been Jonathan or David that proposed
15:21:50 <marcjohlic> JS:  You can't do custom touch objects or widgets that then won't work with AT.  Because standard HTML is supported - it's more the custom widgets
15:22:06 <marcjohlic> ...  we have to say:  "It has to work" when people are coding things
15:22:27 <marcjohlic> DF:  This would have cases where some custom thing works with keyboard but may not work w/ touch and AT enabled
15:22:41 <marcjohlic> DF:  Many of these custom things are not keyboard accessible.
15:23:45 <marcjohlic> KW:  This would be the scenario where keyboard works, but touch doesn't work when you have AT enabled.  We need to think about it in those terms as well.  So if something is keyboard accessible but not touch when AT is on - woudl we want that to be a violation?
15:24:28 <marcjohlic> KW:  There's a lot in custom gestures that become problematic.  Swipe that goes to pages as an example - work w/o AT, but stop workign when AT is on
15:24:49 <marcjohlic> ... Number of things like that that are getting built in that work w/o AT and stop working when AT is enabled
15:25:36 <Kathy> q?
15:26:29 <David> David has joined #mobile-a11y
15:26:34 <David> coming
15:26:34 <marcjohlic> KW:  Any other suggestions on wording to convey this?
15:27:03 <marcjohlic> AS:  Can we word that AT does not turn off that functionality?
15:27:21 <marcjohlic> KW:  It's not that they would be turnign anything off, it's just that it doesn't work or have a mapping
15:27:28 <marcjohlic> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
15:27:31 <Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html
15:27:38 <marcjohlic> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29
15:27:42 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_(Guideline_2.5)
15:28:11 <David> I'm in
15:29:18 <marcjohlic> DM:  There's a 2.5.4 Modified Touch When touch input behavior is modified by built-in assistive technology, all functionality of the content is still operable through touch gestures. (Level A)
15:30:03 <David> http://davidmacd.com/test/w3ctest.html
15:30:45 <marcjohlic> DM:  There's 3 versions of 2.5.4 due to updates from comments
15:31:32 <marcjohlic> 1)  2.5.4 Modified Touch: When touch input behavior is modified by built-in assistive technology, all functionality of the content is still operable through touch gestures. (Level A)
15:31:46 <marcjohlic> 2)  2.5.4 Touch: For pages and applications that support touch, all functionality of the content is operable through touch gestures with and without system assistive technology activated. (Level A)
15:31:56 <marcjohlic> 3)  2.5.4 Touch: For pages and applications that support touch, all functionality of the content is operable through touch gestures with and without system assistive technology activated, without relying on pass through gestures on the system (Level A)
15:32:13 <marcjohlic> 4)  SC 2.5.4: On devices that support touch input, all functions are available vie touch or button presses also after AT is turned on (i.e. without the use of external keyboards).
15:32:22 <marcjohlic> DM:  The last version was getting closer
15:33:35 <marcjohlic> DM:  Some of the default gestures change when VO is on..  maybe 7 or 8.  We have to manage these.
15:33:55 <marcjohlic> ... If a developer messes with these then we're in trouble - for example the swipe+down
15:34:22 <marcjohlic> KW:  My problem w/ relying on passthrough gesture is that it is here and now and it may change
15:34:54 <marcjohlic> DM:  True, but it's something that we rely on for JAWS and has been pretty stable, but I hear what you're saying:  "for a success criteria do we want to be that granular"
15:35:11 <marcjohlic> DM:  Maybe having a failure for passthrough gestures
15:36:06 <marcjohlic> DM:  Maybe we write a draft of 2.5.4 and include a note that we're still investigating passthrough gestures and defaults
15:36:29 <Detlev> Is that online somewhere, David?
15:36:33 <marcjohlic> ...  Working on a matrix - only 10 gestures long at the moment
15:36:57 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:38:00 <marcjohlic> KW:  Developer doc has the gestures specific to VO
15:38:17 <marcjohlic> AS:  Android has AT specific gestures as well
15:39:16 <Kathy> https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/featuredarticles/ViewControllerPGforiPhoneOS/SupportingAccessibility.html
15:39:46 <Detlev> Applevis discussion of some VO pass through gestures (mainly four / five finger swipe) http://www.applevis.com/forum/ios-ios-app-discussion/voiceover-four-and-five-finger-gestures-ios-7-and-ios-8-ipad
15:41:18 <marcjohlic> "Responding to Special VO Gestures" in the Apple documentation
15:42:51 <Kathy> What about this: All functionality of the content is operable through touch gestures with and without system assistive technology activated
15:43:11 <marcjohlic> KW:  What if we simplified it
15:43:39 <marcjohlic> DM:  That's an earlier version
15:44:05 <marcjohlic> KW:  Trying to get it less wordy
15:44:18 <marcjohlic> KW:  "All functionality of the content is operable through touch gestures with and without system assistive technology "
15:44:31 <marcjohlic> DM:  I think it's a good direction
15:44:37 <marcjohlic> AS:  Sounds good to me too
15:44:59 <marcjohlic> KW:  From there we can bring in techniques and failures to cover the other scenarios
15:45:41 <marcjohlic> +1
15:46:05 <marcjohlic> DM:  Does "functionality" include flat text?
15:46:17 <marcjohlic> ... You should be able to get to it via touch
15:46:26 <marcjohlic> KW:  Wouldn't that be a SC on readability?
15:46:36 <marcjohlic> DM:  Yes, but i think you want to be able to get to it via touch
15:48:16 <marcjohlic> ...  "all functionality and content is operable .."
15:48:34 <marcjohlic> KW:  But i'm not sure we should say "content" - we're talking about the functions
15:48:56 <marcjohlic> ...  just like there is reading mode in JAWS and other AT
15:49:22 <marcjohlic> ...  don't want them to think they have to do something to get content read.
15:49:52 <marcjohlic> ...  and example was a site that had put aria-live on everything because they thought they had to do something to get a screen reader to read it
15:50:05 <marcjohlic> s/and example/an example/
15:53:36 <Kathy> All functionality is operable through touch gestures with and without system assistive technology
15:53:45 <marcjohlic> DF:  Are we back to the situation where we demand that everything is available by touch full stop?
15:54:11 <marcjohlic> ... the simplified version doesn't qualify that
15:54:23 <marcjohlic> DM:  True the qualification that we talked about yesterday, we lost that
15:55:24 <marcjohlic> KW:  We're not saying all functionality is available with touch - just that all touch functionality is available with AT
15:56:21 <Kathy> All functionality that is operable through touch gestures, is also available with touch with system assistive technology
15:58:35 <marcjohlic> DF:  Are there exceptions for things like text input that we talked about - maybe we address those with a note or something
15:59:03 <Detlev> OK fair enough
15:59:20 <marcjohlic> DM:  WCAG draws a line where if something dis-proportionally affects PwD
16:00:19 <marcjohlic> KW:  We need to wordsmith this one a bit more - we'll pick this one up next week.  Give it some thought or send some suggestions around
16:00:31 <marcjohlic> ...  getting closer - just need to keep plugging away at this
16:01:22 <marcjohlic> KW:  Let me know if you've finished any techniques so that we can get those surveyed
16:01:29 <marcjohlic> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html marcjohlic
16:05:21 <marcjohlic> trackbot, end meeting
16:05:21 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:05:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy, alan, Henny, jeanne, marcjohlic
16:05:29 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:05:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-mobile-a11y-minutes.html trackbot
16:05:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:05:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items