16:32:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:32:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-aria-irc
16:32:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:32:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:32:13 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:32:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:32:14 <trackbot> Date: 24 September 2015
16:32:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:32:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:32:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
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16:34:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0189.html
16:35:24 <janina> present+ janina
16:35:35 <MichaelC> regrets: Joanmarie_Diggs, Cynthia_Shelly
16:35:37 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:35:37 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:36:13 <Stefan> Scribe: Stefan
16:37:13 <Stefan> Topic:Matt's draft
16:37:17 <Stefan> http://www.w3.org/2015/09/17-aria-minutes.html
16:37:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Matt’s draft
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16:38:08 <Stefan> The issue 633 branch visible at: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html
16:38:23 <mck> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#grid
16:38:49 <Stefan> Matt: there was feedback for grid role last week
16:39:03 <Stefan> Matt: incorporated feedback in article feed role
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16:40:05 <Stefan> Topic:  1. Issue 633: listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items (Matt King)
16:40:06 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:40:17 <Stefan> The issue 633 branch visible at: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html
16:40:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#articlefeed
16:42:06 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#roles_categorization
16:42:40 <Stefan> Matt: articlefeed role: I rewrote the description
16:44:35 <joanie> regrets- Joanmarie_Diggs
16:44:40 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:45:09 <Stefan> Joseph: short sentence needed to alert the reader
16:45:53 <Stefan> Matt: everything ok with this approach?
16:45:59 <Stefan> +q
16:46:11 <Stefan> Rich: keyboard interaction pattern?
16:46:31 <Stefan> Matt: no, it's structural
16:47:16 <Stefan> -q
16:47:47 <Stefan> Rich: What about changing feeds with keyboard?
16:48:26 <clown> s/short sentence needed to alert the reader/the first paragraph of the role description should have one sentence.  If it has a second, it is to alert the reader to a related role/
16:48:30 <Stefan> Matt: in APG we can make some fairly strong statements
16:48:51 <Stefan> Rich: what about mobile devices?
16:51:18 <Stefan> Stefan: best practices in APG should cover interactive articles being part of articlefeed
16:51:41 <Stefan> Stefan: .. with respect to keyboard support
16:52:27 <Stefan> Matt: when peple are using screen readers they want to read the content, also by structure
16:53:24 <Stefan> Rich: what about  aria-feedappendcount or aria-feedprependcount
16:53:55 <Stefan> Matt: they are not changing constantly .. author marks feed busy
16:54:25 <Stefan> Rich: but they are changing, do you expect AT to notice the changes?
16:54:39 <Stefan> Matt: yes they should evaluate onChange event on busy ..
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16:55:10 <Stefan> Rich: Joseph ae we firing firing change events on busy by spec?
16:55:18 <Stefan> Joseph: thinks so
16:55:30 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#event-aria-busy
16:57:02 <Stefan> Matt: you could do this also for indefinitely scrolling grid
16:57:26 <Stefan> Rich: why we need feed in name?
16:57:42 <Stefan> Matt: tried to generalize that by this way
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16:59:33 <Stefan> Matt: this can be even further generalized for tables fetching fdata
16:59:50 <Stefan> Stefan: we need proper signaling for data fetching to AT
17:00:58 <joanie> q+
17:01:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joanie
17:03:01 <Stefan> Joanie: we have this property, no matter if it maps or not
17:04:13 <Stefan> Matt: if you have list in acctree with n children, and property how many children are added and removed this will be useful tied to a state change
17:05:53 <Stefan> Rich: feeds are a bottomless pit .. I don't see any value
17:07:37 <Stefan> Matt: true when adding bstaff to the end, but not for the beginning -> useful or AT to know the offset
17:07:50 <Stefan> Rich: I can see the point
17:08:23 <Stefan> Matt: don't limit to particular use case
17:08:37 <Stefan> Matt: there are other use cases
17:09:30 <Stefan> Matt: feeds are not constantly changing normally ...
17:10:19 <Stefan> Rich: Important to know how many things have been added
17:10:59 <Stefan> Matt: the more AT knows about it, the better, generally
17:18:45 <Stefan> Stefan: being busy is exactly when child elements are being added or removed .. I wonder why in some screen reader implementations you still can navigate these regions although they are currently updated
17:19:40 <Stefan> Matt: use of aria-busy is meant to help people to understand that
17:20:33 <Stefan> Joseph: indicates that "significant" changes are made - what means that?
17:21:06 <Stefan> Rich: some of the text for aria-busy is way over the top -- tooo AT specific
17:22:21 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-busy
17:25:52 <clown> q+ to ask what "changes to the element" mean?
17:28:37 <Stefan> MichaelC: spec should just define not too much AT details
17:29:15 <Stefan> Rich: giving examples is fine
17:30:12 <Stefan> Matt: we can wipe out the educational piece
17:30:36 <Stefan> Rich: challenge is here: is it live?
17:31:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:31:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack clown
17:31:47 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask what "changes to the element" mean?
17:32:27 <Stefan> Matt: aria-busy is not a presentational property .. shoukld be misued
17:34:13 <Stefan> Matt: aria-busy is just saying to AT: ignore events going on here
17:36:00 <Stefan> MichaelC: belongs in implementation guide not in the spec
17:36:53 <Stefan> Matt: I will start over
17:37:49 <Stefan> Rich: I still don't know why the additional properties for feed exist
17:38:41 <Stefan> Rich: if something is busy it means it is interactive, not dead (static table is never busy)
17:38:48 <Stefan> Matt: application is busy
17:38:57 <Stefan> Matt: NOT and NEVER content
17:39:37 <Stefan> Matt: application is busy updating content -this is the message
17:40:07 <Stefan> Rich: you are saying any element can be live?????
17:40:27 <Stefan> Matt: this was as and will be true forever
17:41:42 <Stefan> Rich: aria-busy was only applied to widgets and live regions because they are interactive and can change
17:41:43 <clown> "For example, until a section of a page is fully initialized and complete, an author could mark the document element as busy."
17:42:03 <Stefan> Rich: a table is static and here saying aria-busy makes no sense in this definition
17:44:17 <Stefan> Joseph: aria-busy not defined means "false" right now
17:45:26 <Stefan> Joanie: if false, I don't remove or add children, I would always presume
17:45:43 <Stefan> Joanie: is AT using it this way???
17:46:47 <Stefan> Joanie: aria-busy=true on a table -> ah contents of this table are going to change
17:47:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:48:13 <Stefan> Stefan: a table is an interactive widget in the sense that on user scrolling it can be programmed to fetch data (rows)
17:49:47 <Stefan> Rich: Some Resolutions ahead. ....
17:50:19 <Stefan> Rich: The feed stuff will get hairy
17:52:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> Indicates whether an element, and its subtree, are currently being updated.
17:52:54 <Stefan> Joanie: Matt is talking about latest version and master, there he uses the term "populated" .. makes more sense
17:52:56 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-busy
17:52:56 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-busy
17:53:03 <joanie> Indicates that a live region or widget is being populated.
17:54:40 <Stefan> Joanie: don't you think "populated" is the right term?
17:54:52 <Stefan> Joanie: do you think "populated" is the right term?
17:55:29 <Stefan> Joanie: populated means "being added"
17:57:16 <Stefan> Matt: we can reduce number of words here
17:59:27 <Stefan> MichaelC: we also potentially want to hide abstract roles from the spec (minimalistic view)
17:59:57 <Stefan> MichaelC: it is a way to address different users of spec
18:01:46 <Stefan> Joanie: do you work on action 1073?
18:02:14 <Stefan> Rich: (to Joanie) Joanie: do you work on action 1073?
18:02:42 <Stefan> •	https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1073
18:05:21 <clown> Indicates the current "selected" state of various widgets
18:05:36 <clown> Change to "Indicates the current "selected" state of various widgets, and whether the element is selectable"
18:05:38 <clown> ?
18:06:21 <Stefan> Rich: we will close this as obsololete
18:07:15 <clown> action-1361?
18:07:15 <trackbot> action-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
18:07:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
18:07:23 <Stefan> RESOLUTION: Close ACTION 1073 (obsolete)
18:08:19 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#application
18:09:02 <clown> wow…
18:09:05 <Stefan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/09/24-aria-minutes.html Stefan
18:09:52 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#application
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