IRC log of tt on 2015-08-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-tt-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim, this will be TTML

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I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

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Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

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Date: 27 August 2015

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Present: pal, nigel, andreas, mike, Courtney

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Regrets: thierry, frans

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chair: nigel

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scribe: nigel

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Topic: This meeting

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nigel: Checks agenda with group. AOB?

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group: No other business

14:07:34 [nigel]

Topic: Action Items

14:08:02 [nigel]

nigel: All the actions in this section on the agenda have had no work done on them, so we'll move on.

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Topic: TPAC 2015

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nigel: Any issues, agenda requests, queries of any sort?

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group: Nothing to discuss right now

14:09:03 [nigel]

Topic: HTMLCue proposal progress update

14:09:09 [nigel]

action-415?

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action-415 -- Thierry Michel to Send nigel email addresses of htmlcue proposal reviewers -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN

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http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/415

14:09:22 [nigel]

nigel: Thierry did this - I received the addresses from him

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close action-415

14:09:25 [trackbot]

Closed action-415.

14:09:30 [nigel]

action-416?

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action-416 -- Nigel Megitt to Edit proposal and send to htmlcue proposal reviewers as listed by tmichel, following action-415 -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN

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http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/416

14:10:01 [nigel]

nigel: Apologies I haven't managed to do this one yet, hopefully by the middle of next week.

14:11:44 [nigel]

nigel: I don't think there's anything else on this one - but it's worth noting that the dash.js

14:11:57 [nigel]

... project has recently merged an EBU-TT-D implementation that takes this approach, and I

14:12:17 [nigel]

... think had to subvert the VTTCue to do it, but it demonstrates the HTMLCue principle nicely.

14:12:47 [nigel]

mike: The 1.5 release should be next week I believe - the change has been merged.

14:12:59 [nigel]

... It also supports VTT captions.

14:13:16 [nigel]

Topic: Unicode liaison

14:13:20 [nigel]

action-417?

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action-417 -- Nigel Megitt to Create ticket with unicode for cldr proposal, or add to existing one. -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN

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http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/417

14:13:40 [nigel]

nigel: Again, apologies from me - we decided last week to create a ticket for this and I took

14:13:46 [nigel]

... this action but haven't managed to do it yet.

14:14:51 [nigel]

pal: I'm happy to do this. It's just the act of filing the text of the message we sent before, right?

14:15:00 [nigel]

nigel: Yes, just the same message that we sent to Mark Davis.

14:15:05 [nigel]

pal: I'm happy to do that.

14:15:24 [nigel]

nigel: I wasn't clear if we should add it to the existing ticket or adding a new one.

14:15:32 [nigel]

pal: I may create a new ticket referencing the old one.

14:16:16 [nigel]

nigel: I've updated the action and re-assigned it to Pierre. Thank you Pierre!

14:16:21 [nigel]

pal: No problem!

14:16:47 [nigel]

Topic: ATSC liaison

14:17:20 [nigel]

nigel: There's an email here at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015Aug/0041.html

14:18:08 [nigel]

mike: I don't have too much to add - I proposed a response and nigel proposed some edits.

14:19:25 [nigel]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2015Aug/0019.html

14:21:10 [nigel]

nigel: There was also a point from glenn saying that just using RGB colours and saying that they are in a different colour space might not be enough.

14:21:52 [nigel]

mike: I don't think that required any changes in the message back to ATSC.

14:21:56 [nigel]

nigel: I agree with that.

14:22:15 [nigel]

mike: Essentially we don't understand why they want to use a new colour model. We identified

14:22:29 [nigel]

... a possible problem of helping presentation processors do the compositing but that's not

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... what ATSC asked for.

14:22:44 [nigel]

... I think we've captured the sense of the group.

14:23:12 [nigel]

Action: nigel Send response back to ATSC as per https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-tt/2015Aug/0019.html

14:23:12 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-418 - Send response back to atsc as per https://lists.w3.org/archives/member/member-tt/2015aug/0019.html [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-09-03].

14:23:56 [nigel]

Topic: @codecs registry

14:24:08 [nigel]

nigel: Again this has been a subject of some discussion over the past week. I believe the main

14:24:22 [nigel]

... point is to see if we can progress this more quickly than TTML2?

14:25:28 [nigel]

nigel: Glenn had proposed putting the @codecs registry in a separate document a while back

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... but I think we put it back into TTML2 because the IANA guidelines are to put it in the specification

14:26:36 [nigel]

... that it applies to. If we can separate it out then I don't see why we shouldn't publish separately.

14:26:43 [nigel]

pal: Is there any reason why it can't be a Note?

14:27:02 [nigel]

nigel: Only if it has to have normative status, i.e. it has to be a Recommendation. That would

14:27:05 [pal]

http://www.w3.org/TR/media-source/byte-stream-format-registry.html

14:27:19 [nigel]

nigel: incur some process delay whichever way we do it.

14:27:27 [pal]

See A.2 at http://www.w3.org/TR/media-source/#bib-MSE-REGISTRY

14:27:44 [nigel]

pal: The MSE registry posted above is an informative reference, which is a prior example we can reference.

14:27:56 [nigel]

nigel: That's helpful - well specified.

14:28:02 [nigel]

mike: What was the process for that?

14:28:25 [nigel]

pal: None! I think it was consensus of the group to publish it. I remember the exact same

14:28:47 [nigel]

... discussion in the HTML MSE Task Force - I think they ended up here. So one thought is we

14:29:02 [nigel]

... could go down that path. I may be able to do some archaeology and dig up the minutes, but

14:29:14 [nigel]

... maybe we should go down those lines since that's what they do in the HTML Media Task Force.

14:29:21 [nigel]

s/MSE Task/Media Task

14:31:06 [nigel]

nigel: It looks like this is a lookup table to be helpful rather than defining the MIME subtypes itself.

14:31:19 [nigel]

pal: It does more than simply replicate information present elsewhere.

14:31:37 [nigel]

... It also sets a Generate Timestamps Flag. It has a process for adding entries to the registry.

14:32:34 [nigel]

nigel: I think the draft proposal as it stands now is:

14:32:49 [nigel]

... 1) Create a WG Note describing the registry and the @codecs parameter usage.

14:33:01 [nigel]

... 2) Activate the registry page, either on the wiki or on /TR.

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... 3) Also include the syntax for the @codecs parameter and its IANA registration and usage in TTML2.

14:34:05 [nigel]

pal: I think I found the email that closed the discussion...

14:34:47 [nigel]

mike: If there's a history of W3C doing this with WG consensus do we need a note?

14:34:54 [nigel]

nigel: The note would be the expression of the WG consensus.

14:35:27 [nigel]

mike: The registry that pierre linked to isn't even a Note - it's just a Document.

14:35:27 [pal]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Jun/0027.html

14:36:33 [nigel]

pal: The head of the thread is:

14:36:36 [pal]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2014Jun/0013.html

14:37:31 [nigel]

nigel: Seems like this last email suggests it will be okay.

14:37:44 [nigel]

pal: Reading the last email, it seems as though as long as the Registry only references other

14:37:56 [nigel]

... normative documents that seems to be fine. It doesn't have normative references of its own.

14:38:08 [nigel]

mike: It's not intended to be normative - it's just a process and a table of values.

14:38:22 [nigel]

pal: If you read the entire thread they ran into the exact issue that we have, that the W3C doesn't

14:38:36 [nigel]

... have an explicit process for registries or things of that nature. Making it a consensus document

14:38:43 [nigel]

... seems to be a reasonable process.

14:39:45 [nigel]

nigel: Obviously a Note can refer to something non-normative as well as normative.

14:39:51 [nigel]

... Mike, what's the industry context?

14:40:15 [nigel]

mike: It's inadequate to signal TTML as simply the media type, just as it is inadequate to indicate

14:40:33 [nigel]

... video or audio without enough information to deduce if it can be decoded. So all of those

14:40:50 [nigel]

... media streams have a codec value that give more information e.g. profile, bitrate, resolution etc.

14:41:04 [nigel]

... TTML is just the same. I think it's just adequate to signal the profile to which it complies.

14:41:21 [nigel]

... MPEG asked W3C what to do about it and W3C offered to host a registry. MPEG was concerned

14:41:34 [nigel]

... about the long strings that were being used for the profile designators so asked for a more

14:41:45 [nigel]

... concise value to be used in place of the profile URL.

14:43:06 [nigel]

nigel: I'm aware that we don't have staff present, who may have a view, and I'd like people to

14:43:20 [nigel]

... have a chance to review the links that Pierre has posted. So I'd like to hold off this as a

14:43:34 [nigel]

... proposal until next week. Is there anything else to be done in the meantime? Can we draft

14:43:41 [nigel]

... the document? Is it just the existing wiki page?

14:43:59 [nigel]

https://www.w3.org/wiki/TTML/CodecsRegistry

14:44:09 [nigel]

mike: That doesn't contain all the profiles that we know about - there are more to add.

14:44:29 [nigel]

nigel: Is there anything else that would need to be done?

14:44:51 [nigel]

mike: I think so, it's been static for a while. I think it's fair to put people on notice that we propose

14:44:57 [nigel]

... to make this 'live' in the near future.

14:45:34 [nigel]

nigel: Would anyone like to take the action to populate the table with the other values that we are aware of?

14:46:22 [nigel]

mike: I'm happy to do that. We should notify the organisations of what we plan too. I'll try to make them 4 or 5 letters.

14:46:29 [nigel]

nigel: It might be fair to make them all 4 if we can.

14:46:45 [nigel]

mike: If you want them to be meaningful then it will be easier if we allow ourselves to go to 5,

14:46:52 [nigel]

... such as EBUTT, CFFTT, IMSC1 etc.

14:47:14 [nigel]

Action: mike Add other TTML profiles to the CodecsRegistry wiki page

14:47:15 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-419 - Add other ttml profiles to the codecsregistry wiki page [on Mike Dolan - due 2015-09-03].

14:48:25 [nigel]

nigel: Looking at the agenda, I don't think there's anything else we have to discuss, so I'll adjourn the meeting.

14:48:55 [nigel]

nigel: Thanks everyone! [Adjourns meeting]

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rrsagent, make logs public

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rrsagent, draft minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-tt-minutes.html nigel

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s/well specified/well spotted

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s/a note?/a Note?

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s/The note would/The Note would

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rrsagent, draft minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-tt-minutes.html nigel

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ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics

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rrsagent, draft minutes

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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-tt-minutes.html nigel

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