16:30:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:30:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-aria-irc
16:31:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:31:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:31:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:31:02 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:31:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:31:04 <trackbot> Date: 27 August 2015
16:31:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:31:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:31:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:31:45 <fesch> fesch has joined #aria
16:31:51 <JaEunJemmaKu> present+jaeunjemmaku
16:32:00 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:32:04 <JaEunJemmaKu> present+ jaeunjemmaku
16:33:27 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:34:14 <janina> present+ janina
16:35:48 <tzviya> present+ Tzviya
16:35:54 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
16:36:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich
16:36:59 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
16:37:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0083.html
16:38:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Janina
16:38:29 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
16:38:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: aria-describedat details/summary
16:38:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/2015/08/extended-description-analysis
16:39:21 <janina> rs: details/summary still under examination as possible solution
16:39:34 <janina> rs: conversation ongoing with Microsoft re implementation in Edge
16:39:53 <janina> rs: Will also need a media querry property for hide/show config
16:40:28 <janina> rs: Believe will be OK if we can get implementation in Edge committed
16:40:54 <janina> topic: Charter Status
16:41:16 <janina> janina: No news today
16:41:39 <janina> rs: Noting two formal objections
16:41:46 <janina> janina: that's what's blocking, nothing else
16:42:28 <janina> topic: Action-1703
16:42:32 <richardschwerdtfeger>  https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1703
16:42:40 <janina> zakim, action-1703?
16:42:40 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, janina.
16:42:47 <janina> action-1703?
16:42:47 <trackbot> action-1703 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Ask the aria task force about the need for a special figure role that would be brought up in a list of figures. also, discuss whether this would be a suitable default role for html figure. -- due 2015-08-21 -- OPEN
16:42:48 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1703
16:43:10 <Stefan> +q
16:43:16 <janina> rs: valuable to retrieve a full list of figures in a doc
16:43:23 <janina> rs: rather like landmark, but for figures
16:43:30 <janina> rs: should it be applied to HTML fig?
16:43:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> s/fig?/figure/
16:44:10 <janina> stefan: yes, this would be valuable
16:44:27 <janina> stefan: brings us more intune with host lang
16:44:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich
16:45:19 <janina> jd: wondering whether figure is typically like a diagram
16:45:20 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:45:44 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:45:54 <janina> rs: yes
16:46:08 <janina> fe: also usable in svg as a view
16:46:36 <janina> fe: a part of the larger graphic that could stand alone, with its own integral semantic value
16:46:52 <janina> jd: so svg figure and html figure pretty parallel concepts
16:46:55 <janina> rs: yes
16:46:58 <janina> jd: then I agree
16:48:30 <janina> fe: noting that svg "view" is a perspective representation
16:48:52 <janina> fe: applicable to "panel charts" -- a region that could stand alone, if desired
16:49:06 <janina> rs: so a list of these would be helpful
16:49:30 <janina> rs: so does the TF support a figure role, and should we promote to html
16:49:30 <fesch> +1 for figure role
16:49:45 <joanie> +1 for figure role
16:49:53 <janina> stefan: asking about fig-caption, etc
16:50:04 <janina> rs: could use aria-label ... ...
16:50:21 <janina> fe: fig-caption is optional for a texted explanation
16:51:26 <janina> stefan: so the aria role could function as fig-caption substitute
16:51:29 <janina> [agreement]
16:51:43 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria
16:52:50 <janina> rs: looking at html aam mappings for fig-caption ...
16:52:58 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has changed the topic to: August 27, 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:53:44 <janina> stefan: concerned that we are able to distinguish one figure in the list from another
16:54:51 <janina> rs: noting used in name calc -- noting edge support now
16:55:28 <janina> rs: so unique name or descript at the least
16:56:04 <janina> rs: proposing to intro a new figure element and can draft text
16:56:44 <fesch> +1 for figure element
16:57:21 <janina> rs: proposing we don't want to subclass region
16:57:33 <janina> rs: because region comes up in list of landmarks
16:58:03 <janina> jd: for discussion -- why is figure not a landmark?
16:58:15 <janina> rs: it actually is, but we want to be able to display them separately
16:58:34 <janina> fe: could be wierd if it drops one into the middle of an svg
16:59:41 <janina> stefan: wondering to what html figure is associated -- what's its parent?
16:59:44 <janina> rs: unaware
16:59:59 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-aria-minutes.html janina
17:00:34 <janina> rs: could subclass group potentially
17:01:20 <janina> jd: aria-activedescendent inheritance problem if subclassed group
17:02:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Create a new role called figure that subclases the section role
17:02:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich Create proposed text for a new figure role to Joanie to put in a brancth for review
17:02:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1708 - Create proposed text for a new figure role to joanie to put in a brancth for review [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-09-03].
17:03:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich get with Steve Faulkner to discuss the HTML figure element mapping to role figure
17:03:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1709 - Get with steve faulkner to discuss the html figure element mapping to role figure [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-09-03].
17:03:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Close Action 1703
17:04:23 <janina> topic: action-1578
17:04:26 <janina> action-1578?
17:04:26 <trackbot> action-1578 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-700 in aria task force meeting. -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN
17:04:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578
17:04:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
17:06:04 <joanie> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239#c7
17:06:24 <janina> jd: last comment, awaiting response
17:07:22 <janina> rs: I expect we're not creating a special role, correct?
17:07:23 <janina> jd: yes
17:07:47 <janina> rs: anything else to do with this?
17:07:49 <janina> jd: no
17:08:30 <janina> RESOLUTION: Close issue-700 as discussed and resolved to be an AAM concern
17:08:50 <janina> action-1546?
17:08:50 <trackbot> action-1546 -- David Bolter to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 -- CLOSED
17:08:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
17:09:13 <janina> close action-1578
17:09:13 <trackbot> Closed action-1578.
17:09:22 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria
17:10:13 <janina> topic: action0-1646
17:10:16 <janina> action-1646?
17:10:16 <trackbot> action-1646 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add clarifying text to readonly and required properties -- due 2015-06-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:10:16 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1646
17:10:26 <janina> jd: done
17:10:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Action 1646
17:11:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1646
17:11:18 <MichielBijl> topic: action-1646
17:11:22 <janina> zakim, who's here?
17:11:22 <Zakim> Present: jaeunjemmaku, fesch, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, Tzviya, Rich, JamesNurthen, Bryan_Garaventa
17:11:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see MichielBijl, bgaraventa1979, ShaneM, jamesn, fesch, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfeger, JaEunJemmaKu, Stefan, asurkov, janina, MichaelC, hober, JonathanNeal_,
17:11:24 <Zakim> ... joanie, trackbot
17:11:38 <joanie> joanie has joined #aria
17:12:07 <janina> jd: created a branch, and created text as follows:
17:12:09 <joanie> While the columnheader role can be used in both interactive grids and non-interactive tables, the use of aria-readonly and aria-required is only applicable to interactive elements. Therefore, authors should not use aria-required or aria-readonly in a columnheader that descends from a table, and user agents should not expose either property to assistive technologies unless the columnheader descends from a grid.
17:13:34 <janina> jn: if the only interactivity is sorting, is that necessarily a grid?
17:13:37 <janina> jd: believe so
17:13:41 <janina> jn: much overhead
17:14:02 <janina> rs: unsure, not yet raised, but intend to raise deprecating grid
17:14:12 <janina> jn: but requires a full kybd model
17:15:49 <janina> rs: so how to get to the element to activate the sort?
17:16:03 <janina> rs: should it be navigable?
17:16:44 <janina> rs: what about a spreadsheet like table where only option is scroll?
17:18:33 <janina> jd: still unclear what's wrong with my proposed text
17:18:37 <janina> jn: think it's ok
17:19:37 <janina> rs: ok
17:21:30 <janina> RESOLUTION: Accept Joanie's response to Action-1646
17:21:56 <janina> topic: open actions and issues
17:23:02 <janina> action-1490
17:23:02 <trackbot> action-1490 -- James Nurthen to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:23:02 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1490
17:23:28 <janina> jn: it's the interactive thing ...
17:23:33 <janina> rs: so we need matt, etc
17:24:01 <janina> action-1537
17:24:01 <trackbot> action-1537 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Research pulling together a group to address some aapi extensions e.g., getcomputedrole -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN
17:24:01 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1537
17:24:16 <janina> rs: many balls in the air, such as a new api as proposed by cynthia
17:24:26 <janina> rs: we set this out last tpac
17:24:34 <janina> rs: is this 1.1 or is it aria-2.0
17:26:33 <janina> janina: not seeing a solid reason to keep this in 1.1
17:26:39 <janina> jd: we need to feature freeze
17:26:39 <MichielBijl> +1
17:26:49 <JaEunJemmaKu> +1
17:27:13 <janina> RESOLUTION: Move action-1537 to ARIA-2.0 to be resumed with the API work
17:27:27 <janina> s/API/browser api/
17:30:04 <janina> action-1676
17:30:04 <trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-07-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:30:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1676
17:30:24 <janina> jd: why is directory a superclass of tablist?
17:30:53 <janina> rs: a list of places to go???
17:31:41 <janina> rs: not an abstract class ... a list of references to members of a group
17:31:51 <janina> bg: same mapping as list
17:32:07 <janina> rs: is there inheritance problem somewhere?
17:32:36 <janina> jd: discovered with marked interactive
17:33:23 <janina> jd: made wierd things happen
17:34:07 <janina> rs: agree we need to postpone this to interaction discussion
17:34:26 <janina> jd: should be closed "won't fix" for now ?
17:34:30 <janina> action-1676
17:34:30 <trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-07-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:34:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1676
17:34:32 <janina> action-1677
17:34:32 <trackbot> action-1677 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove input as a superclass of scrollbar and select -- due 2015-07-07 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:34:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1677
17:34:35 <janina> action-1675
17:34:35 <trackbot> action-1675 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove list as a superclass of menu and listbox -- due 2015-07-07 -- OPEN
17:34:35 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1675
17:35:04 <janina> jd: should these stay open? or closed "won't fix" until we return to interactive discussion
17:35:12 <janina> rs: could move to interactive issue
17:35:42 <janina> rs: related to inheritance cleanup
17:36:27 <janina> rs: moving to issue-633
17:38:39 <janina> close issue-722
17:38:39 <trackbot> Closed issue-722.
17:39:04 <clown> clown has joined #aria
17:40:04 <janina> topic: issue-736
17:40:06 <janina> issue-736
17:40:06 <trackbot> issue-736 -- aria-label overriding listitem and treeitem content when need to know content is valuable -- open
17:40:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/736
17:40:25 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0087.html
17:40:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Issue 736
17:41:07 <MichielBijl> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:41:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
17:41:28 <MichielBijl> present+ MichielBijl
17:43:26 <MichielBijl> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:43:58 <janina> clown: would actually like to say "a list item sometimes requires a name"
17:46:50 <joanie> jd: I believe in the case of ARIA, a listitem is never a widget.
17:47:08 <joanie> jd: I think in ARIA, those objects would have role option.
17:47:19 <joanie> jd: Role option should have a name required, of course.
17:48:01 <joanie> jd: I don't think think an ARIA listitem is ever a widget. Furthermore, I think we don't want listitems to have names.
17:48:55 <joanie> jd: In addition, we need to get in touch with Steve Faulkner because the original concern I raised with the extreme names was HTML related (an li element).
17:52:42 <janina> rs: proposal to drop required and name from content
17:52:50 <janina> rs: need to vet this around as is significant
17:55:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich get with Freedom Scientific to discuss name from content removal from listitems and no longer requiring names on lists
17:55:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1710 - Get with freedom scientific to discuss name from content removal from listitems and no longer requiring names on lists [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-09-03].
17:56:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Joseph Get with Alex Surkov to discuss name from content removal from listitems and no longer requiring names on lists
17:56:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1711 - Get with alex surkov to discuss name from content removal from listitems and no longer requiring names on lists [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-09-03].
17:57:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Joanie Get with Apple to discuss name from content removal from listitems and no longer requiring names on lists
17:57:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1712 - Get with apple to discuss name from content removal from listitems and no longer requiring names on lists [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-09-03].
18:00:09 <janina> zakim, bye
18:00:09 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jaeunjemmaku, fesch, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, Tzviya, Rich, JamesNurthen, Bryan_Garaventa, MichielBijl, Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:00:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:00:16 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/27-aria-minutes.html janina
18:02:29 <MichielBijl> I'd say you always feed them what they select, not something invisible.
18:06:56 <MichielBijl> Wouldn't that be a case where figure could be used?
18:07:06 <MichielBijl> Like with a figcaption
18:11:49 <clown> *no problem
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