IRC log of aapi on 2015-08-25

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18:56:22 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/25-aapi-irc

18:56:24 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

18:56:24 [Zakim]

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18:56:26 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_PF

18:56:26 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

18:56:27 [trackbot]

Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference

18:56:27 [trackbot]

Date: 25 August 2015

18:56:48 [clown]

chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer

18:57:10 [clown]

agenda: this

18:57:16 [clown]

agenda+ (All) Test cases for ARIA 1.1 mappings.

18:57:22 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1547: (Rich) Update test test cases involving rowgroup.

18:57:27 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1529: (Joseph, Joanie) Pending review: ATK/AT-SPI mappings of aria-current.

18:57:32 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1667: (Joseph) Update the mappings for aria role region to reflect its landmark inheritance as defined in the aria 1.1 spec.

18:57:38 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1692/ACTION-1693: (Joanie, Alex) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping for aria-errormessage.

18:57:43 [clown]

agenda+ ACTION-1696: (Joanie) Propose ATK/AT-SPI mapping of aria-kbdshortcuts

18:57:50 [clown]

agenda+ Bugzilla-28816 (All) Some ARIA roles lacking explicit a11y API role mappings.

18:57:57 [clown]

agenda+ Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23)

18:58:03 [clown]

agenda+ be done.

18:59:32 [clown]

present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer

19:01:18 [joanie]

present+ Joanmarie_Diggs

19:01:37 [joanie]

scribe: joanie

19:02:40 [joanie]

present+ Cynthia_Shelly

19:04:43 [richardschwerdtfeger]

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19:05:22 [joanie]

present+ Bryan_Garaventa

19:05:35 [joanie]

present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger

19:06:22 [joanie]

Zakim, take up item 1

19:06:22 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "(All) Test cases for ARIA 1.1 mappings." taken up [from clown]

19:08:01 [bgaraventa1979]

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19:09:24 [joanie]

JS: This came up at last Thursday's ARIA meeting.

19:09:32 [joanie]

JS: I was asked to bring this topic up here.

19:09:51 [joanie]

JS: We need to go through the mapping document and find out what's new, and what's changed since ARIA 1.0.

19:09:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q?

19:09:59 [richardschwerdtfeger]

q+

19:10:06 [joanie]

JS: It probably means changing the existing test cases and adding new test cases.

19:10:22 [joanie]

JS: For now it's something we need to think about.

19:10:35 [joanie]

JS: I'll do a little bit for test harness introduction.

19:11:27 [joanie]

RS: One of the things we need to decide.... Since ARIA 1.1 takes advantage of native host language semantics, e.g. you do not need to put role="row" on a TR, do we need to test this?

19:11:42 [joanie]

RS: It seems like we might want to have a joint test suite with Steve.

19:12:07 [joanie]

JS: Michael had suggested that for "just ARIA" we could possibly just go with divs and spans.

19:12:33 [joanie]

JS: We also had HTML table-related elements to test for role="presentation"

19:12:38 [joanie]

JS: A test case looks like:

19:12:40 [clown]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/edit?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=131

19:13:06 [joanie]

JS: The URL (above) shows a test case.

19:13:25 [joanie]

CS: If we can get webdriver working, we can do automated testing.

19:13:36 [joanie]

JS: Even if we do automated testing, we have to set these things up.

19:14:00 [joanie]

JS: Looking at the test case at the above URL, you need to have a "testable statement" (reads from example)

19:14:23 [joanie]

JS: You also need expected result. This can be for all platforms or on a per-platform basis.

19:14:33 [joanie]

JS: Finally, at the bottom, you have a test file.

19:14:48 [joanie]

JS: In this case it's an HTML file set up to verify the testable statement.

19:14:59 [cyns]

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19:15:02 [joanie]

JS: Verification might be automated or done manually.

19:15:12 [joanie]

JS: Somewhere that result is recorded as a pass/fail.

19:15:22 [joanie]

RS: We're going to have to create all the testable statements.

19:15:39 [joanie]

JS: Yes, in some cases we will need to create new ones; in some cases we'll need to find the old/existing ones.

19:15:52 [joanie]

RS: Cynthia, are we just going to test UIA?

19:16:18 [joanie]

CS: That is my intention.

19:16:32 [joanie]

RS: I would like to focus on the platform(s) we want to target.

19:16:52 [joanie]

RS: Do we still have the MSAA + UIA Express entries in the table?

19:16:57 [joanie]

JS: Yes.

19:17:28 [joanie]

JS: We could add a statement that the UIA Express column is deprecated (or something to that effect). Or we could remove that column.

19:17:42 [joanie]

RS: I am hoping the browser team will be responsive so we can get quick turn around.

19:18:08 [joanie]

CS: It will depend on the timeline.

19:18:22 [joanie]

RS: It won't be tomorrow. We have to write the test cases.

19:18:34 [joanie]

RS: Some of this you know is already implemented for UIA, correct?

19:18:45 [joanie]

CS: Yes, some of it is already implemented.

19:19:12 [joanie]

CS: I want to also get automated testing working.

19:19:20 [joanie]

RS: That might need to wait for ARIA 2.0, right?

19:19:23 [joanie]

CS: It depends.

19:19:28 [joanie]

JS: What is the testing timeframe?

19:19:39 [joanie]

RS: We're supposed to be done with ARIA 1.1 the middle of next year.

19:19:47 [joanie]

JS: So testing starts this fall then?

19:19:49 [joanie]

RS: Correct.

19:20:13 [joanie]

CS: That timeline is one where I think I can get automation at least somewhat working.

19:20:31 [joanie]

RS: I was hoping to get ERT going so they could help us with this. But that isn't happening.

19:21:22 [joanie]

RS: So the message for ARIA 1.1 is that we're focusing on Edge; not IE.

19:21:40 [joanie]

JS: Please get me a statement please, Cynthia.

19:21:45 [joanie]

CS: Give me an action.

19:22:18 [clown]

action: Cynthia to compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of UIA Express mappings in the core-asm, referencing the ARIA 1.0 mapping spec.

19:22:18 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1706 - Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-asm, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-09-01].

19:22:40 [clown]

action-1706?

19:22:40 [trackbot]

action-1706 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compose a statement regarding the "deprecation" of uia express mappings in the core-asm, referencing the aria 1.0 mapping spec. -- due 2015-09-01 -- OPEN

19:22:40 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1706

19:23:23 [joanie]

JS: I suspect the same thing has to be done with SVG AAM and HTML AAM. Right?

19:23:29 [joanie]

RS: Yes, we'll have to do that.

19:23:38 [joanie]

RS: And Digital Publishing.

19:23:47 [joanie]

JS: DPub is not in the same time frame though, right?

19:23:59 [joanie]

RS: Right. Same thing for Graphics.

19:24:27 [joanie]

JS: With regards to actually making test cases, someone needs to go through the spec and find out what's changed.

19:24:34 [joanie]

JS: Who wants to take that on?

19:24:41 [joanie]

RS: Michael?

19:24:47 [joanie]

CS: It depends on the timeline.

19:25:00 [joanie]

JS: Last time, Michael did the first pass.

19:25:11 [joanie]

JS: I remember doing 100+ test files last time.

19:25:27 [joanie]

RS: We almost need to do a diff.

19:25:34 [joanie]

JS: There's a ChangeLog.

19:25:38 [clown]

http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#changelog

19:25:44 [joanie]

CS: And we use github so we can do a diff.

19:25:54 [joanie]

CS: I'll take on writing test cases for UIA.

19:26:53 [joanie]

(Group discusses specifics of ChangeLogs)

19:27:24 [joanie]

RS: This is a good start. It's very high-level, e.g. mappings for switch.

19:27:31 [joanie]

RS: Do we have this for ARIA too?

19:27:35 [joanie]

JS: Yes.

19:28:12 [joanie]

JS: The ARIA 1.0 mapping guide didn't have a UIA column.

19:29:33 [clown]

http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#changelog

19:31:15 [cyns]

have to head ot another meeting

19:32:15 [joanie]

RS: I'm concerned that the spec may not have all changes we need to test itemized in a ChangeLog.

19:33:27 [joanie]

JS: So presumably Joanie will be involved with ATK/AT-SPI2.

19:33:39 [joanie]

RS: I can help with MSAA + IA2 stuff.

19:33:48 [joanie]

JS: I'll volunteer to review everyone's work.

19:34:06 [joanie]

RS: Last time, I wrote or rewrote something like 600 test cases.

19:34:26 [joanie]

JS: And we discovered that a number of the grid test cases were not really grids; but mere barebones tests.

19:34:43 [joanie]

RS: If we get Michael to do the first pass....

19:35:03 [joanie]

JS: And I expect we'll use the same test harness. Or will we use github?

19:35:12 [joanie]

RS: What does that mean, "use github"?

19:35:29 [joanie]

JS: Add test cases to the github repo (i.e. in a folder in that repo).

19:35:59 [clown]

s/in that repo)./in that repo).?/

19:36:57 [joanie]

RS: Is that the best way to go do it?

19:38:52 [joanie]

JD: The more open, the better.

19:39:09 [joanie]

JS: Could we add something to Thursday's agenda to discuss these things with Michael?

19:39:15 [joanie]

RS: He's on Geek Week.

19:39:24 [joanie]

JS: I'll try to touch base with him.

19:39:29 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:39:29 [Zakim]

I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, joanie

19:39:32 [joanie]

q?

19:39:40 [joanie]

ack rich

19:39:43 [joanie]

Zakim, next item

19:39:43 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "ACTION-1547: (Rich) Update test test cases involving rowgroup." taken up [from clown]

19:39:49 [clown]

action-1547?

19:39:49 [trackbot]

action-1547 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Update test test cases involving rowgroup to ensure they are included within a grid container and to ensure that the expected result matches the new mappings -- due 2015-08-19 -- OPEN

19:39:49 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1547

19:40:06 [joanie]

JS: This came due last week.

19:40:22 [joanie]

RS: I've not done anything on test cases yet.

19:40:31 [joanie]

JS: We're still waiting on a resolution from Apple on this.

19:40:53 [clown]

http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup

19:40:54 [joanie]

JS: The rest of the platforms have a mapping for this because the rowgroup could get focus and needs to be mapped.

19:41:49 [clown]

issue-635?

19:41:49 [trackbot]

issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open

19:41:49 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635

19:42:02 [clown]

https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239#c2

19:42:38 [joanie]

JS: His latest comment on the above bug is asking Chris Fleizach.

19:43:20 [joanie]

JS: Actually comment 6 seems to be implying that if an author creates an interactive rowgroup, as far as Apple is concerns, it's no longer a table.

19:43:57 [joanie]

JS: I think there's something on Thursday's agenda about this, though I might be wrong.

19:44:08 [joanie]

JS: Action-1578 is on the agenda.

19:44:11 [joanie]

action-1578

19:44:11 [trackbot]

action-1578 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-700 in aria task force meeting. -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN

19:44:11 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578

19:44:27 [joanie]

issue-700

19:44:27 [trackbot]

issue-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open

19:44:27 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700

19:44:59 [joanie]

RS: I thought we had already discussed this issue here (at this meeting)

19:45:07 [joanie]

JS: Correct. The only holdout is Apple.

19:45:18 [joanie]

RS: I thought we'd already brought this to the ARIA task force.

19:45:26 [joanie]

RS: Who needs to reach out to James on this?

19:45:35 [joanie]

JS: I may not be at Thursday's meeting.

19:45:44 [joanie]

RS: You could reach out on the list.

19:48:28 [joanie]

JD: Looking at the bug's comment #6, we need to find out if such a table should not be mapped as a table for OS X.

19:49:56 [clown]

http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-presentation

19:50:30 [joanie]

JS: (Reads from above mapping table)

19:53:31 [joanie]

RS: Joanie, can you verify what the functional/real mapping is for OS X for table with role="presentation"? I don't think what's in the mapping table accurately reflects what is happening.

19:53:43 [joanie]

JD: I'll add it to my list.

19:57:35 [joanie]

https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/platform/mac/accessibility/aria-inherits-presentational-expected.txt

20:00:30 [joanie]

inhttps://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/LayoutTests/accessibility/aria-inherits-presentational.html?rev=169631

20:00:33 [clown]

ACTION: Joseph to edit the AXAPI mapping table for roles presentation and none to specify that when applied to tables and lists, the children are exposed as AXStaticText accessible.

20:00:33 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-1707 - Edit the axapi mapping table for roles presentation and none to specify that when applied to tables and lists, the children are exposed as axstatictext accessible. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-09-01].

20:00:40 [clown]

action-1707?

20:00:40 [trackbot]

action-1707 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Edit the axapi mapping table for roles presentation and none to specify that when applied to tables and lists, the children are exposed as axstatictext accessible. -- due 2015-09-01 -- OPEN

20:00:40 [trackbot]

https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1707

20:08:50 [joanie]

JD: Ok, I commented on https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239. Let's see what they say.

20:09:47 [joanie]

Zakim, part

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20:09:51 [joanie]

RRSAgent, stop

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scribeOptions: -final

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RRSAgent, stop