15:54:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #privacy
15:54:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-privacy-irc
15:54:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs 263
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15:55:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
15:55:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
15:55:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Privacy Interest Group Teleconference
15:55:02 <trackbot> Date: 13 August 2015
15:55:04 <npdoty> rrsagent, make logs public
15:56:04 <npdoty> present+ npdoty, MikeONeill, tara, christine
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16:01:20 <wseltzer> present+ Wseltzer
16:01:44 <npdoty> present+ gregnorcie
16:01:49 <npdoty> present+ anssi
16:02:00 <npdoty> present+ frankwagner
16:02:04 <JoeHallCDT> JoeHallCDT has joined #privacy
16:02:10 <npdoty> present+ lakepolan
16:02:24 <gnorcie> gnorcie has joined #privacy
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16:02:30 <gnorcie> testing
16:02:51 <anssik> anssik has joined #privacy
16:03:06 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
16:03:07 <npdoty> present+ markschultz
16:03:48 <anssik> s/present+ markschultz/present+ Mark_Foltz/
16:04:16 <npdoty> any volunteers to scribe?
16:04:54 <npdoty> gnorcie or JoeHallCDT, can you scribe to start? then MikeONeill will take over halfway through?
16:05:15 <JoeHallCDT> I cannot
16:05:17 <JoeHallCDT> sorry
16:05:23 <JoeHallCDT> distracted and have to leave early :/
16:05:37 <npdoty> MikeONeill, why don't you start and we'll help you out when you need to stop?
16:05:43 <MikeONeill> OK
16:05:49 <npdoty> scribenick: MikeONeill
16:06:02 <npdoty> present+ katiehs
16:06:05 <tara> Thanks!
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16:07:10 <MikeONeill> Christine askinf for intros
16:07:10 <tara> 1. Welcome and introductions
16:07:48 <MikeONeill> ansik intoduces hmself
16:07:53 <tara> (Anssi Kostiainen)
16:08:35 <MikeONeill> Mark Foltz
16:09:10 <MikeONeill> didnt catch name
16:09:31 <npdoty> Anton and Mounir, Google London
16:10:39 <MikeONeill> geolocation still working on use cases, postponing our discussion till next ca
16:10:48 <npdoty> Topic: Presentation API
16:10:49 <MikeONeill> Now presentation API
16:11:11 <tara> Anssi Kostiainen and Mark Foltz are from the Second Screen Presentation Working Group
16:12:02 <keiji> Presentation API WD http://www.w3.org/TR/presentation-api/
16:12:27 <christine> Email from the Second Screen WG - https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-secondscreen/2015Jul/0010.html
16:12:29 <MikeONeill> Mark Foltz is starting presentation
16:12:55 <MikeONeill> Basic use case to allow web app use secondary displays
16:13:01 <terri> Present+ terri
16:13:19 <MikeONeill> essentiall display other piece of content that what use is viewing
16:14:18 <tara> (If you are not speaking, please mute! Thanks.)
16:14:23 <MikeONeill> app can send url to display
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16:14:40 <MikeONeill> other option is for browser to send video straem
16:15:24 <anssik> https://github.com/w3c/presentation-api/blob/gh-pages/uc-req.md
16:15:31 <anssik> [use cases document]
16:16:20 <MikeONeill> webcoferencing, can use home TV, gaming all use cases
16:16:34 <MikeONeill> +q
16:16:44 <MikeONeill> tara thanks
16:17:16 <npdoty> q+ on differences from postMessage or from full-screen api
16:18:16 <anssik> q?
16:18:37 <anssik> 1. Private mode browsing for the presenting context
16:18:50 <MikeONeill> Anssi walk through privacy aspects
16:18:59 <christine> The four issues are here: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-secondscreen/2015Jul/0010.html
16:19:11 <anssik> https://github.com/w3c/presentation-api/issues/45
16:19:23 <MikeONeill> Anssi we use GitHub for tracking issues
16:19:42 <MikeONeill> privacy issue 1) privacy mode what happens?
16:20:40 <MikeONeill> Anssi second device shared by multiple users. How to protect privacy in that situation. Should we require "private mode browsing" context?
16:21:12 <MikeONeill> Anssi privacy mode not standardised
16:21:27 <anssik> q?
16:21:35 <npdoty> q+ on private browsing mode and whose privacy
16:21:39 <anssik> q?
16:22:30 <MikeONeill> Nick, is idea we dont want to show logged in or private video?
16:23:22 <MikeONeill> Mark Foltz, one possible modes send url or stream
16:24:44 <MikeONeill> Mark Foltz, device should not have access to cookie hjars, other data
16:26:27 <tara> ack np
16:26:27 <Zakim> npdoty, you wanted to comment on differences from postMessage or from full-screen api and to comment on private browsing mode and whose privacy
16:26:41 <npdoty> I think there are some interesting challenges regarding how private this presentation mode should be
16:27:16 <npdoty> for example, will the URL also send state (like in query parameters)? will postMessage send private information that shouldn't be shared?
16:27:54 <npdoty> does the presentation screen allow for any interaction (which in a public context could be worrisome if I'm logged in)?
16:28:45 <npdoty> any communication between the presenting and the controlling side must be confidential
16:28:48 <npdoty> ack MikeONeill
16:29:11 <npdoty> MikeONeill: different technologies could be used for actual showing the video (eg webrtc) Mark: yes.
16:29:27 <npdoty> MikeONeill: should the user be alerted in some way that there in a privacy mode?
16:30:02 <npdoty> mfoltzgoogle: user doesn't have to choose or be aware, the user should just know that when the presentation is over, you're not leaving any private state behind
16:30:12 <anssik> 2. Fingerprinting and screen availability monitoring
16:30:54 <MikeONeill> Anssi 2nd privacy issue. Fingerprinting. to supply good experience the website needs to now whether there are secondary screens
16:31:17 <tara> (for a good user experience)
16:31:22 <MikeONeill> Ansii doing this we reaveal one bit of fingerprinting info (presense of othe screens)
16:31:37 <christine> q+
16:31:39 <MikeONeill> +q
16:32:05 <anssik> https://github.com/w3c/presentation-api/issues/9
16:32:10 <anssik> q?
16:33:24 <MikeONeill> Chritstine, what info about presention devices
16:33:50 <MikeONeill> Ansii, only one bit to in=dicate if presentations are prsesent
16:34:49 <anssik> s/Ansii/Anssi/
16:35:00 <anssik> q?
16:35:21 <npdoty> ack christine
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16:36:48 <tara> MikeONeill: there was a unique GUID in the Media Stream, so was concerned about "drive-by fingerprinting" -- others might use it as convenient API for fingerprinting. Would not like this sort of precedent to be set.
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16:37:14 <npdoty> I would be less concerned about a single boolean than something with much more detail, and it would be more straightforwardly detectable. but it would be worth determining whether there was any alternative way to implement it
16:37:23 <anssik> 3. Security and privacy considerations
16:37:28 <tara> Anssik: We are only providing Boolean - "screens or no screens" and that's all.
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16:37:40 <tara> ack mi
16:37:58 <MikeONeill> Ansii, 3: should be a section on privacy and security consideration - asking for guidance on that section
16:38:01 <anssik> https://github.com/w3c/presentation-api/issues/45
16:38:38 <npdoty> q+
16:39:21 <MikeONeill> Nick, grat to see questionaire use. asking for meta level feedback back
16:39:34 <fwagner> q?
16:39:40 <tara> Nick: is the questionnaire working well? Suggestions?
16:39:43 <npdoty> q-
16:40:00 <anssik> https://w3ctag.github.io/security-questionnaire/
16:40:14 <MikeONeill> Ansii, pasting links to other questionaires
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16:41:17 <mfoltzgoogle> +q
16:41:35 <mfoltzgoogle> q+
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16:41:54 <tara> Questionnaire helped to anticipate issues early in the process.
16:42:15 <tara> Unclear where these documents fit into the process -- could use guidance.
16:42:29 <anssik> q?
16:43:11 <MikeONeill> Mark Foltz: comments happy to provide feedback on questionaire
16:43:14 <JoeHallCDT> regrets, I need to leave the call early
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16:43:37 <anssik> https://w3c.github.io/fingerprinting-guidance/
16:43:43 <anssik> https://w3c.github.io/privacy-considerations/
16:44:00 <anssik> 4. Rejecting the Promise when user cancels the screen selection
16:44:16 <npdoty> I think the latter of those is less up-to-date, but hopefully the fingerprinting doc (also undergoing revisions) will be helpful
16:45:00 <MikeONeill> Ansii: issue 4- rejecting promise - if use gets prompt to choose screen if click cancel, currently webpage get to know that
16:45:33 <MikeONeill> Ansii with specific error code, app knows the user has rejected presentation screen
16:46:05 <npdoty> q+
16:46:31 <mfoltzgoogle> q-
16:46:37 <MikeONeill> need to think about it
16:47:11 <avayvod> Have to go, sorry.
16:47:14 <MikeONeill> Nick: geolocation did have a way but implementations rejected that
16:47:54 <MikeONeill> Nick: not so concerned, but apps need to handle case when user just ignores it, so why have it
16:48:27 <npdoty> you definitely would want to know whether there was an error somewhere
16:48:41 <npdoty> but I'm not sure the difference between "user rejected the request" and "user ignored the request"
16:48:46 <anssik> some details in https://github.com/w3c/presentation-api/issues/20
16:49:09 <MikeONeill> Mark, gist was sitees may ant to pause video, then resume if user accepts
16:49:43 <fwagner> Sorry I have to drop of earlier, but have hardly conducted to participate more often than in the past....
16:49:43 <fwagner> 
16:49:51 <MikeONeill> Ansii, open to PING making recomendations
16:50:05 <anssik> q?
16:50:08 <npdoty> q-
16:51:19 <anssik> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-secondscreen/2015Jul/0010.html
16:51:24 <anssik> summary of the issues
16:51:26 <MikeONeill> Ansii, inviting comments on list or github,
16:51:38 <npdoty> timeline for feedback?
16:51:45 <tara> Thanks very much!
16:51:52 <fwagner> Sorry, I have to drop of, but promise to participate more often than in the past....
16:52:06 <MikeONeill> Christine, very impressed, covered privacy issues etc.
16:52:31 <MikeONeill> Christine, time frame for feedback?
16:52:42 <npdoty> +1, great to see a group very interested in the topic and lots of privacy/security thoughts already
16:52:51 <mfoltzgoogle> q+
16:52:57 <MikeONeill> Anssi, not at reveur stage yet. Whatever works for PING
16:53:07 <npdoty> s/revuer/wide review/
16:53:43 <MikeONeill> Christine, it varies a lot of specs needs inputs, we need to shepherd, encourage others to contribute
16:53:58 <npdoty> next month or two?
16:54:14 <MikeONeill> Christine: next PING call Sept 17
16:54:47 <MikeONeill> Anssi, chime in on issues, no need to do whole thing in one go
16:54:50 <christine> Does anyone now want to step up as a shepherd for the review of this spec?
16:54:57 <npdoty> cool, thanks.
16:56:00 <gnorcie> I could possibly, let me discuss w/ Joe
16:56:00 <MikeONeill> Anssi, within 1 month if we have name would be good
16:56:27 <MikeONeill> thanks ANsii & Mark great presentation
16:56:40 <npdoty> Topic: Draft TAG security and privacy questionnaire
16:57:00 <mfoltzgoogle> Just wanted to suggest that any feedback in advance of TPAC at the end of October would be very helpful. The Second Screen Working Group will be meeting F2F there.
16:57:09 <mfoltzgoogle> q-
16:57:22 <npdoty> thanks, mfoltzgoogle, that's useful
16:58:07 <MikeONeill> Christine, mentions wiki, being shipped to gitub
16:58:18 <npdoty> gnorcie, do you have an update on that? when should we send that feedback to tag or move to github?
16:59:10 <MikeONeill> gnorcie: next step maybe we should strip out security bits, rather than have one doc
17:01:01 <MikeONeill> chritine, lets concentrate on privacy first, w
17:01:07 <tara> (Thanks, Wendy!)
17:01:36 <MikeONeill> gnorcie, we need to try using the questionaire on new spec see how it works
17:02:07 <MikeONeill> Christine, presentation API or geofencing talking about next month
17:02:18 <npdoty> q+
17:03:21 <npdoty> ack npdoty
17:03:25 <MikeONeill> Christine, if no objection we could publish as draft note, lets see this published
17:03:40 <tara> Nick will do updates on the fingerprinting docs, circulate, and we'll publish as draft PING note.
17:03:49 <tara> Sept 17 for next call.
17:03:52 <npdoty> thanks
17:03:59 <MikeONeill> next call on geofencing
17:04:20 <MikeONeill> thanks
17:04:25 <LCPolan> LCPolan has left #privacy
17:04:35 <npdoty> trackbot, end meeting
17:04:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:04:35 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:04:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:04:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-privacy-minutes.html trackbot
17:04:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:04:44 <RRSAgent> I see no action items