16:16:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
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16:16:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:17:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:17:01 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:17:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:17:02 <trackbot> Date: 13 August 2015
16:17:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
16:18:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:18:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:18:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> Agenda:
16:18:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0038.html
16:18:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> Publisher Requirements:
16:18:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Publisher_requirements_for_extended_descriptions
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16:24:39 <janina> present+ janina
16:24:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:24:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ David_Singer
16:25:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Markus_Gylling
16:25:14 <mgylling> scribenick: mgylling
16:25:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Avneesh-Singh
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16:27:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Tzviya
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16:28:14 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
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16:29:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Ted
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16:32:07 <ivan> Present+ Ivan
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16:32:21 <tzviya> present+ George_Kerscher
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16:33:25 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:33:28 <mgylling> present+ Tom_Starbranch
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16:34:34 <mgylling> present+ Larry_Skutchan
16:34:35 <dkaplan3> present+ Deborah_Kaplan
16:34:52 <mgylling> present+ Daniel_Weck
16:35:07 <mgylling> Rich: when people speak, please say your name
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16:35:23 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:35:26 <mgylling> … first quickly go around the table, say who you are and what comapny you are from
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16:36:08 <mgylling> [staff and chairs introduce themselves]
16:36:23 <mgylling> Leonie: from the Paciello group
16:36:37 <mgylling> Tzviya: DPUB IG chair, Wiley
16:36:42 <mgylling> George: with DAISY and IDPF
16:36:49 <dsinger> Apple is usually James Craig, but today we have Ted O’Connor (hober) here supported by Dave Singer (dsinger)
16:36:51 <mgylling> Ric Wright with Readium
16:37:06 <jcraig> I'm here Rich
16:37:12 <mgylling> Keith Creasy with APH, interested particularly in Braille
16:37:13 <jcraig> I've here Dave
16:37:31 <mgylling> Deborah Kaplan, chair if DPUB A11/ TF, Safari Books Online
16:37:40 <mgylling> Avneesh Singh, DAISY
16:38:00 <mgylling> Charles LaPierre, Benetech, co-chair DPUB A11Y TF
16:38:04 <mgylling> Mallorie ??1
16:38:17 <mgylling> Mia Lipner, Pearson, Accessibility Manager
16:38:22 <tzviya> s/??1/Bontrager
16:38:24 <jcraig> present+ James_Craig
16:38:39 <mgylling> Tob Starbranch, Pearson, Director of learning services
16:38:47 <mgylling> Jason White, ETS
16:39:00 <mgylling> Ivan Herman, W3C, DPUB IG staff contact
16:39:12 <mgylling> Jon Gunderson, UNiversity of Illinois
16:39:17 <mgylling> Dave Cramer, Hachette
16:39:26 <mgylling> s/UN/Un
16:39:34 <mgylling> Daniel Weck, DAISY Consortium and Readium
16:39:58 <mgylling> Joanie Diggs, Gallia??2
16:40:18 <mgylling> Joan??3, University of Illinois Library
16:40:27 <joanie> s/Gallia??2/Igalia, ARIA spec co-editor, developer of the Orca screen reader/
16:40:42 <mgylling> Julie Morris, BISG
16:40:52 <mgylling> Larry Skutchan, APH
16:41:21 <mgylling> Ed McCoyd, AAP
16:41:37 <mgylling> Ted O’Connor, Webkit team at Apple
16:41:47 <mgylling> David Singer, Apple
16:42:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Aug/0038.html
16:42:11 <jcraig> James Craig, Apple
16:42:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Publisher_requirements_for_extended_descriptions
16:42:18 <mgylling> topic: requirements from the publishing industry
16:42:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:43:17 <mgylling> Tzviya: implicit to this, there has to be support from all UAs, publishing like all other industries has problem with old browsers
16:44:00 <mgylling> … We are talking about images as well as non-images. We need to provide rich descriptions for several things.
16:44:08 <mgylling> … these need to support rich markup
16:44:18 <mgylling> … we want to use same method for all types of objects
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16:44:42 <mgylling> … these should be reusable between multiple documents
16:45:08 <mgylling> … unambiguous nature of the source and description exposed to AT and UAs
16:45:26 <mgylling> … these descriptions should be complex or bloat the page in any way
16:45:53 <mgylling> … not necessarily visible in html, discoverable and skippable
16:45:53 <LJWatson> q+ to ask what is meant by "not visible in the HTML"?
16:46:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:46:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
16:46:10 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to ask what is meant by "not visible in the HTML"?
16:46:11 <jcraig> q+ to ask how this could be possible if "no browser updates" are a requirement?
16:46:18 <mgylling> LjWatson: whats meant by not visible in the HTML?
16:46:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:47:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
16:47:22 <mgylling> Deborah: basically, we dont want it to necessarily change the design, e.g. art book or picture book by adding this extra information. We do however want AT to get to it, and optionally generic UA users as well via settings
16:47:22 <dsinger> ah, “must not force a change in the visible appearance of the content"?
16:47:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
16:47:34 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask how this could be possible if "no browser updates" are a requirement?
16:47:39 <LJWatson> ack me
16:47:50 <tzviya> q+
16:47:58 <mgylling> jcraig: I dont see how thats possible if we dont have browser support
16:48:18 <mgylling> tzviya: we didnt say it needs to be backwards compatible, just that we need support moving forward
16:48:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:48:45 <tzviya> q-
16:49:04 <mgylling> mia: thats my take on it as well
16:50:33 <mgylling> rich: to james’s point, its going to be hard to retrofit in older browsers, no changes to IE only in Edge. Is that a viable route for the publishing industry. Second your saying AT access, but also allow book readers or browsers to render the content?
16:50:50 <mgylling> … is using a browser that supports details viable?
16:51:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:51:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
16:51:30 <mgylling> dkaplan: first point: we understand that the past is the past and that there is only so much retrofitting we can do. We do need there to be buy-in in raeding systems and user agents that this will be supported
16:51:53 <mgylling> … we would rather have the right thing supported in Edge moving forward, than have nothing
16:52:09 <jcraig> s/I dont see how thats possible if we dont have browser support/I dont see how "new feature requirements" are possible if we on of the other requirements is "we can't require updates of legacy browsers"/
16:52:51 <mgylling> … second question: what we really need is both in terms of viewable and not viewable. Details could possibly work if some of our questions are addressable. We do want to be able by users or content creators choice to expose this to non-AT UAs
16:53:34 <mgylling> … but there are cases in publishing where either businesswise or legally exposing these things is a non-starter.
16:53:54 <mgylling> … Samuel Becket was very picky [??4]
16:54:07 <jcraig> q+ to answer any questions you have about details (doesn't require visual changes) and SVG (can be used for raster/bitmaps)
16:54:11 <mgylling> … it has to be something that can be hidden by default
16:54:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:54:27 <mgylling> rich: good point, I hadn’t heard that requirement yet
16:54:45 <mgylling> tzviya: its not just legal, book designers have this requirement as well
16:54:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
16:54:50 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to answer any questions you have about details (doesn't require visual changes) and SVG (can be used for raster/bitmaps)
16:55:19 <jcraig> http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/
16:55:42 <jcraig> http://cookiecrook.com/longdesc/svg_bitmap/
16:55:43 <dkaplan3> q+
16:55:47 <mgylling> jcraig: I wanted to offer to respond re the details element. It does not require visual presence on the screen. The other misconception on the wiki is that people seem to be under the impression that SVG cant represent raster or bitmap images
16:55:58 <joanie> q+ To ask about longdesc, in particular: Is the only problem that it is (currently) only usable for images? If longdesc were expanded to be applicable to any element, would that be a solution? And if so, would it lend itself to (some) backwards compatibility?
16:56:07 <mgylling> … neither requires a visual change to the layout
16:56:20 <tzviya> q+ to ask about functional a11y of SVG
16:56:37 <mgylling> George: details wraps an element which may need a description, if details is hidden is the element that it wraps also hidden?
16:56:54 <mgylling> jcraig: depends on whether you mean visually hidden
16:57:22 <janina> q+ to clarify whether content rendering includes the user agent chrome
16:57:22 <mgylling> … some activiation could result in rendering the content either visually or to AT
16:57:38 <mgylling> rich: you also want to have the browser ask to turn these things on?
16:57:52 <LJWatson> q+
16:58:21 <ivan> ack dkaplan3
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16:58:47 <mgylling> dkaplan: the particular concern, the specific requirement is that we want to be able to say, here is a visual thing, here is  consistent semantic link to a description, that AT knows, that can be hidden or shown on demand
16:58:49 <ivan> ack dkaplan
16:58:54 <ivan> q?
16:59:22 <jasonjgw> q+
17:00:21 <mgylling> … no matter what SVG is capable of, we cant tell publishing to start using SVG
17:00:34 <jcraig> q+ to mention this sounds like the @media (prefers-extended-descriptions) CSS media feature
17:00:35 <mgylling> Ted: the images can still be raster and referenced from SVG
17:00:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack joanie
17:00:46 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to ask about longdesc, in particular: Is the only problem that it is (currently) only usable for images? If longdesc were expanded to be applicable to any
17:00:49 <Zakim> ... element, would that be a solution? And if so, would it lend itself to (some) backwards compatibility?
17:01:21 <mgylling> joanie: longdesc on the wiki, is that the only problem longdesc has?
17:01:40 <mgylling> … if it were expanded, if it could be applied to any element, are there any other blockers
17:02:02 <mgylling> browser objections, lack of support
17:02:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack tzviya
17:02:08 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask about functional a11y of SVG
17:02:33 <mgylling> tzviya: question on the feasibility of SVG, I know ARIA has been working on that, where is that work?
17:03:08 <mgylling> jcraig: my bitmap example, on mac it runs on chrome safari firefox [??5]
17:03:25 <Judy> q+
17:03:51 <jcraig> q+ tom
17:03:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+ TomStarbranch
17:04:01 <jcraig> q- tom
17:04:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack janina
17:04:12 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to clarify whether content rendering includes the user agent chrome
17:04:55 <mgylling> janina: might be useful to note, I think there is a distinction when we talk about rendering, that we always have some level of chrome in the UA, that some controls are visible somewhere, I assume we dont mean the chrome when we say affecting content?
17:05:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+ Keith
17:06:14 <Tom> Tom has joined #aria
17:06:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
17:06:43 <mgylling> dkaplan: right, it is acceptable to say you turned on an option [??7]
17:07:31 <Tom_> Tom_ has joined #aria
17:07:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jasongw
17:07:34 <mgylling> joanie: if we have details and summary and hide the summary off-screen, how then do we make that visible to people with cognitive disabilities? this is the crux of what we need to solve, is whats rendered and where that choice gets made
17:07:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:07:39 <LJWatson> zakim, ack me
17:07:39 <Zakim> I see jasonjgw, jcraig, Judy, TomStarbranch, Keith on the speaker queue
17:07:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jasonjgw
17:08:09 <mgylling> jason: Mark Hakkinen (ETS) is working on the use of Web Components to present rich alternatives, including long descriptions and printing
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17:08:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:08:44 <mgylling> … wrapped in a web component that surrounds an image, and can use CSS, can rely on personal needs a preferences profile
17:09:37 <mgylling> … we have a commitment by a number of UA developers, also there are polyfills available now. Thats what we’ve been working on here. Think its a powerful solution that draws on general mechanisms used on the general web
17:09:45 <jcraig> ack me
17:09:45 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention this sounds like the @media (prefers-extended-descriptions) CSS media feature
17:09:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:10:13 <MichielBijl> Explanation of chrome versus content, chrome shown in red boxes, content in green boxes: http://agosto.nl/dir/accessibility/content-chrome.png
17:10:27 <LJWatson> s/joanie: if we have details and summary and hide the summary off-screen, how then do we make that visible to people with cognitive disabilities? this is the crux of what we need to solve, is whats rendered and where that choice gets made/LJWatson: if we have details and summary and hide the summary off-screen, how then do we make that visible to people with cognitive disabilities? this is...
17:10:28 <LJWatson> ...the crux of what we need to solve, is whats rendered and where that choice gets made/
17:10:35 <mgylling> jcraig: adding stuff to the browser chrome is not a likely path forward, we should concentrate on rendering engines, one related thing is media features
17:10:49 <mgylling> … prefers differentiation without color setting
17:11:24 <mgylling> … we could do something similar here to turn default rendering on or off. This would be further work in CSSWG
17:11:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:11:45 <mgylling> rich: you have to be able to set it somewhere in the OS but not necessarily in the browser itself
17:11:53 <mgylling> jcraig: right
17:11:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Judy
17:12:51 <jcraig> s/right/right. user CSS, browser GUI, or OS GUI./
17:13:13 <mgylling> judy: glad to hear multiple options being discussed, we should try to make sure that the questions opened are tracked down after the meeting
17:13:50 <mgylling> … look further into this offline, and pull together a view of what works and what doesnt, which things are easily fixable
17:14:02 <tzviya> +1 to follow up discussion
17:14:03 <joanie> I would request/suggest the details Judy is talking about also wind up in the wiki page we're discussing
17:14:05 <mgylling> rich: we are trying to get the issues out and will then focus on action items
17:14:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack TomStarbranch
17:14:33 <mgylling> Tom: delivering descriptions that are narrative in nature [??8]
17:15:20 <mgylling> george: we’ve got the diagram center work with a content model, short summary, long description, simplified languauge, alternative, tactile views, 3d printer version, all kinds of enhancements that could be linked to
17:15:37 <mgylling> we’re thinking that it could be showed in the browser via XSLT
17:15:41 <LJWatson> Q+ to ask if we can introduce an application/OS pref for "show extended descriptions", why then not extend longdesc to all elements - since the lack of GUI availability was a primary objection.
17:15:54 <ivan> ivan has joined #aria
17:16:06 <mgylling> Ted:  why would we want to expose arbitrary XML to the browser?
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17:16:28 <mgylling> ??+: One example is ChartML
17:16:29 <jcraig> q+ to ask if you could deliver it via <a href>
17:16:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:16:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
17:16:48 <tzviya> s/??/Tom_Starbranch
17:17:01 <jcraig> q+ or http content negotiation
17:17:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack Keith
17:17:18 <jcraig> q+ to say or http content negotiation
17:18:45 <mgylling> keith: we are talking about descriptions as narrative, but for a braille reader there are other options that are sometimes preferable. Most browsers support unicode braille now. Using braille symbols that act as pointers. In a textbook some is graphical, some is text. Much more easily understood as braille than as a narrative description.
17:18:52 <jcraig> q+ to say including .brf braille files
17:19:36 <mgylling> … we need to not exclude formatted braille, tactile graphics that are not narrative descriptions. The diagram content model does allow for multiple alternatives
17:19:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
17:19:41 <Zakim> LJWatson, you wanted to ask if we can introduce an application/OS pref for "show extended descriptions", why then not extend longdesc to all elements - since the lack of GUI
17:19:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:19:45 <Zakim> ... availability was a primary objection.
17:20:18 <mgylling> Leonie: on joanies question, if there is a possibility within as OS or app to toggle visibility, doesnt that makes want to look on extending longdesc to other elements?
17:20:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:20:20 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to ask if you could deliver it via <a href> and to say or http content negotiation and to say including .brf braille files
17:20:57 <mgylling> jcraig: we’ve posted our objections to longdesc, thats gonna be a non-starter for us
17:21:36 <mgylling> dkaplan: DPUB is element agnostic as long as our requirements are met. We agree with Leonie in that there is an affordance problem in finding or discovering settings
17:22:01 <mgylling> joanie: is that an irreconcilable problem then?
17:22:25 <joanie> s/joanie: is that an ir/léonie: is that an ir/
17:22:52 <tzviya> q+ to say that it is solvable - there are many things build into UI that users control and users (even my dad) have figured out
17:23:08 <mgylling> dkaplan: there are approaches in UI design, if it is an option that is built into the OS or reading system, the publication can say “by the way if you need these…” an easy to change thing that a non technical user can handle
17:23:48 <mgylling> Tom: if it is extremely hard to make content accessible […?]
17:24:18 <jasonjgw>  q+
17:25:08 <jcraig> you wanted to ask if you could deliver it via <a href> and to say or http content negotiation and to say including .brf braille files
17:26:07 <mgylling> jcraig: first of all, 3d models, brf files, sounds like we are growing the requirements in ways I dont know if they are achievable. We should focus on minimal requirements. There are ways to serve that content…
17:26:18 <mgylling> keith: I was talking about unicode braille, not BRF
17:26:20 <LJWatson> +1 to focusing requirements
17:26:44 <mgylling> jcraig: can be served in standard ways today, a href or http content negotiation
17:26:50 <tzviya> q+ to suggest that a small group of us work to focus requirements
17:27:15 <mgylling> … think this is separate from todays discussion
17:27:27 <mgylling> Tom: Are you including ChartML in this?
17:27:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:27:38 <mgylling> jcraig: yes, can be linked or content negotiated the same way
17:27:54 <mgylling> Tom: my concern is that everybody would create their own solution
17:28:55 <mgylling> rich: george mentioned earlier that you want to be able to reuse the alternative content. When we look at details, is it unrealistic to ask for a src attribute, and plugins for custom formats?
17:29:06 <mgylling> … and there are security concerns
17:29:34 <mgylling> Tom: we’re not convinced that the browser is the right way to render this, we want a low barrier for entry
17:30:04 <jasonjgw> date
17:30:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:31:28 <mgylling> dkaplan: there’s two separate issues there: as far as resuability goes, use case is say you have a bunch text books that can reuse an update one single instance of the description. The separate thing of rendering things that are not native to the browser, it is reasonable to say we would like to be able to render marked up text natively in the browser, and things on top of that via plugins, and I think that is fine
17:31:39 <jcraig> +1 to dkaplan3's bringing the conversation back to reasonable scoping
17:31:59 <jasonjgw> Writing my comment in IRC: a media query or similar mechanism would enable our web components to choose from among the alternatives without introducing a user interface into the rendering of the content. This is a missing capability that would significantly support the Web Component approach.
17:32:05 <jcraig> q?
17:32:09 <jcraig> ack richardschwerdtfeger
17:32:17 <mgylling> rich: currently if you have a src attribute, you just get on piece of content. Do you want arbitration by the browser? Aria-describedAt does not allow for this
17:32:41 <jcraig> Time check... Call is wrapping up.
17:33:03 <mgylling> george: we were looking with the diagrammar to use XSLT to create a single html page, and the user would select which item they want
17:33:25 <mgylling> … we’d love to see personalization in the future
17:33:40 <mgylling> … but I dont know that we can get there today
17:34:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:34:30 <mgylling> mia: I’d like to echo that, realizing that coming up with multiple alternatves makes things complicated and may not be feasible in the short term, but we should keep an eye on it for the future
17:35:15 <mgylling> Tom: Using ChartML, we want to deliver this as graphs, how do we get that to user agent with a low barries of entry
17:35:29 <mgylling> … that can use with any app or plugin that they choose
17:35:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:35:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack tzviya
17:35:54 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to say that it is solvable - there are many things build into UI that users control and users (even my dad) have figured out and to suggest that a small group of
17:35:57 <Zakim> ... us work to focus requirements
17:36:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jasongw
17:36:37 <mgylling> jason: I put most of my comments into IRC. The diagrammar is what Mark Hakkinens work with Web Components is based on
17:36:44 <mgylling> topic: aria.describedAt
17:36:52 <joanie> q?
17:36:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0102.html
17:36:57 <joanie> ack jasonjgw
17:37:32 <mgylling> rich: we’ve seen the Apple objection to longdesc, is one of the issues that you want to maintain context?
17:38:17 <mgylling> … that the external URL is launched in a separate tab, which gives a change in context. Or is there other issues like that?
17:39:16 <mgylling> jcraig: there is a variety of ways that you can maintain context even with a standard link
17:39:52 <mgylling> rich; if accessing the external meant creating a new tab, was that your concern?
17:40:44 <mgylling> jcraig: our objection within the book publishing context, say iBooks, if you reference an online assett, there’s no indication of what should happen in that case, and there’s no standard EPUB way to render that separate from the flow of the book
17:41:22 <mgylling> rich: I am trying to figure out where the issues are with reusable descriptions
17:41:52 <mgylling> jcraig: with details you’d have to use an SVG or an iframe to reference the external resource
17:43:05 <dkaplan3> q+
17:43:12 <mgylling> Ted: there’s two different kinds of sharing of description. In the case of packaged content like EPUB; sharing the same description between multiple content documents, and the description is also included in the EPUB. The second case is the network one where you have two different books that share the same description
17:43:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack dkaplan
17:43:43 <jcraig> q+
17:43:53 <mgylling> dkaplan: taking no position with element or attribute is used, it is a requirement for us that there is one way to do this thing. In publishing we want to make it sustainable for content producers
17:44:20 <mgylling> … in a world where there are no ATAG compliant tools it is important to use that it is simple
17:45:34 <tzviya> q+
17:45:35 <mgylling> jcraig: I think my response to that is twofold: one I think it is possible that we can get to a solution to one single method, the link is the only way. Two, I dont consider the absence of tools a shortcoming of the specs, I consider it a shortcoming of the tools
17:46:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack jcraig
17:46:05 <mgylling> … you’re welcome to reference it via link and longdesc
17:46:33 <jasonjgw> With apologies, I need to leave to prepare for an upcoming meeting.
17:47:06 <mgylling> tzviya: about authoring tools: I’ve seen many authoring tools that say “fill in alt text here”, there are guidelines what longdescs should include but no advice what markup to use
17:47:53 <mgylling> rich: one of the issues we need to look into is the whole personalized showing and hiding of information. To me thats the combination of a media query, and some content being hidden in the DOM by default
17:49:02 <mgylling> jcraig: I see that as a later step. Right now the base requirement is to have descriptions that does not change the layout of the page. After we get to that point, a follow-up requirement might be CSS support based on user preferences. User preferences doesnt exist on any system, so that shouldnt block progress
17:49:30 <mgylling> … we have to walk before we can run
17:49:31 <jcraig> s/an get to a solution to one single method, the link is the only way./an get to a solution to one single method, the link is the only way and it's worked in the Web for 25 years./
17:49:52 <mgylling> rich: one of the things that was discussed was detail and summary, that doesnt give us the remote content support
17:50:05 <mgylling> … providing a src attribute, is that a viable option
17:50:30 <mgylling> Ted: I think its very unlikely, given that details is shipping in browsers, specced in a rec with a processing model
17:50:40 <jcraig> s/Two, I dont consider the absence of tools a shortcoming of the specs, I consider it a shortcoming of the tools/Two, I dont consider the absence of tools a shortcoming of the specs, I consider it a shortcoming of the tools, and publishers have control over their own publishing tool chain./
17:50:46 <janina> Q+ But it's not in the rec, it's only in 5.1
17:50:51 <mgylling> … its a huge change to the processing model thats very unlikely to be support by browser engines
17:51:11 <mgylling> s/be support/be supported/
17:51:32 <janina> q-
17:51:38 <tzviya> q-
17:51:53 <mgylling> jcraig: it would be possible to do it that way, do have it shown be deafult, you can do that today with a user stylesheet
17:53:02 <mgylling> … having that happen via a stylesheet isnt necessarily the case, but one could use a match media script [??10]
17:53:18 <mgylling> rich: we need to find out why the other browsers havent implemented details
17:53:32 <mgylling> jcraig: we dont need to wait on them, thats what polyfills are for
17:53:54 <mgylling> rich: publishers dont want to stick polyfills in books
17:54:14 <mgylling> jcraig: some publishers are using polyfills already, this would be a pretty light one
17:54:32 <mgylling> rich: publishers, can you accept polyfills?
17:55:32 <mgylling> dkaplan: I dont believe Sanders is here, so speaking with my Safari Books Online hat, publishers dont provide the platform. So from a publishing perspective it comes down to browsers and reading systems
17:55:46 <mgylling> … it is acceptable if the reading systems would be supported
17:56:05 <mgylling> tzviya: we deliver to 50 retailers, maybe 5 accespt javascript
17:56:57 <mgylling> dkaplan: the question is can we get better support moving forward
17:57:36 <dauwhe> q?
17:57:43 <mgylling> jcraig: currently with browsers, details element is not supported in IE and Firefox, but no one has objected so as far as I know they plan to support it
17:58:28 <mgylling> tzviya: theres a big distinction between not supported and rejected
17:58:54 <tzviya> I would appreciated some help refining the requirements document based on today's discussion
17:59:05 <mgylling> rich: I will talk to Microsoft about detauls, and talk to other vendors about the src attribute
17:59:21 <mgylling> s/detauls/details
17:59:58 <mgylling> janina: we should start building the grid of options
18:00:49 <mgylling> rich: we have the requierements, we need to figure out what the best option is and how to get it supported in browsers
18:01:32 <mgylling> avneesh: concern about details, more complicated than longdesc
18:02:28 <mgylling> jcraig: the publishers tool chain is at play there, the publisher can hire someone to figure it out. If a publisher is including this content, they write a toolchain to handle it.
18:02:48 <mgylling> avneesh: I am looking at the track record, where they couldnt even get longdesc working
18:03:12 <LJWatson> +1 to the publisher's toolchain being a critical factor.
18:03:13 <mgylling> jcraig: good point, we are finding that most books dont even have alt text
18:03:20 <Judy> q+
18:03:28 <mgylling> tzvia: admits to finding alt text authoring challenging
18:04:00 <mgylling> Tom: we dont have trouble with alt text, we fond that its not going to work
18:04:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:04:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
18:04:24 <mgylling> judy: in the grid you are preparing, the considerations of feasibility of use should be included
18:05:12 <mgylling> avneesh: similarly, high complexity in polyfills
18:05:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
18:05:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-aria-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
18:05:53 <mgylling> rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/08/13-aria-minutes.html mgylling
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