IRC log of sdw on 2015-08-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:56:29 [RRSAgent]
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12:56:29 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:56:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:56:31 [Zakim]
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12:56:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
12:56:33 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:56:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:56:34 [trackbot]
Date: 05 August 2015
12:56:47 [kerry]
present+ Kerry
12:56:53 [stakagi]
present+ stakagi
12:56:58 [kerry]
chair: kerry
12:57:10 [kostas]
present+ kostas
12:57:12 [aharth]
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12:57:25 [kerry]
rrsagent, make logs public
12:58:48 [aharth]
present+ aharth
13:00:05 [kerry]
regrets+ lars Svensson
13:00:12 [Linda]
Linda has joined #sdw
13:00:15 [kerry]
scribe: andreas harth
13:00:26 [kerry]
scribenick: aharth
13:00:46 [kerry]
regrets+ Rachel Heaven
13:00:52 [kerry]
regrets+ ed parsons
13:01:24 [Linda]
present+ Linda
13:01:42 [billroberts]
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13:01:53 [ChrisLittle]
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13:01:56 [Payam]
present +Payam
13:02:12 [Payam]
present +Kostas
13:02:13 [ChrisLittle]
Present +ChrisLittle
13:02:23 [phila]
present+ phila
13:02:49 [SimonCox]
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13:03:18 [SimonCox]
present+ SImonCox
13:03:22 [billroberts]
present+ billroberts
13:03:31 [Alejandro_Llaves]
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13:03:35 [kerry]
13:03:43 [Alejandro_Llaves]
present+ Alejandro_Llaves
13:03:43 [Payam]
13:03:51 [phila]
PROPOSED: Approve last week's minutes
13:03:56 [Payam]
13:03:57 [Linda]
13:04:00 [kerry]
13:04:02 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:04:06 [BartvanLeeuwen]
13:04:10 [phila]
RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes
13:04:10 [billroberts]
13:04:20 [Frans]
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13:04:25 [ChrisLittle]
13:04:40 [joshlieberman]
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13:04:40 [aharth]
kerry: patent call
13:04:44 [phila]
-> Patent Call
13:05:22 [Frans]
present+ frans
13:05:42 [phila]
kerry: This is the patent call that satisfies OGC process. It's important that any patent claims are declared
13:06:00 [BartvanLeeuwen]
present+ BartvanLeeuwen
13:06:01 [phila]
... Please remember to type present+ and your name
13:06:09 [phila]
... this records your presence in the minutes
13:06:21 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:06:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
13:06:23 [aharth]
Topic: Welcome new members
13:06:29 [phila]
Topic: New Members
13:06:42 [phila]
kerry: Invites kostas to introduce himself
13:06:57 [aharth]
kostas: university of surrey
13:07:01 [kerry]
topic: welcome new member kostas from uni surrey
13:07:04 [phila]
kostas: I'm a KTP associate... at Univesity of Surrey (works with Payam)
13:08:05 [aharth]
kerry: welcome Satoru Takagi, editor of svg recommendation
13:08:09 [phila]
kerry: Also welcoms Satoro Takagi, editor an an SVG spec
13:08:21 [billrobe_]
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13:08:26 [phila]
scribe: aharth
13:08:30 [stakagi]
13:08:47 [aharth]
Topic: Use Cases and Requirements: Editors' stocktake report
13:09:04 [aharth]
kerry: update on document
13:09:18 [aharth]
... frans and alejandro are both here
13:09:40 [Frans]
13:09:46 [aharth]
frans: url of current version of the document
13:10:01 [aharth]
... first public working draft has been published a while ago
13:10:09 [aharth]
... with feedback with the public comments lists
13:10:20 [aharth]
s/with feedback with/with feedback on/
13:10:35 [aharth]
... some issues left, issues are labelled in current version of document
13:10:53 [aharth]
... some recent changes not related to tracked issues
13:10:58 [aharth]
... two new chapters have been added
13:11:00 [Frans]
a new chapter:
13:11:26 [aharth]
... one extra chapter with a summary of requirements per deliverable
13:11:45 [Frans]
13:11:59 [aharth]
... another extra chapter on requirements that are deferred to some later time
13:12:29 [aharth]
... another global change relates to slight change of wording (standards -> recommended way)
13:14:28 [AndreaPerego]
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13:14:46 [kerry]
alejandro: we are wroking to close the issues in the tracker still from barcelona
13:15:13 [kerry]
.... ideally nw looking for external feedback
13:15:15 [Linda]
What was Frans saying about CRS requirements?
13:15:21 [kerry]
13:15:26 [aharth]
alejandro: after public working draft we'll get external feedback that will help to refine requirements
13:15:32 [AndreaPerego]
present+ AndreaPerego
13:15:44 [kerry]
... we should try to extned the description of requirements
13:15:46 [Frans]
Fot CRS requirements a separate meeting or teleconference is considered.
13:15:49 [aharth]
... we should try to extend the descriptions of requirements with examples
13:15:52 [kerry]
... with examples and clarifications
13:16:00 [kerry]
13:16:44 [aharth]
kerry: any more questions on the use case document?
13:17:08 [Frans]
13:17:21 [aharth]
... discussion on crs in particular delayed a bit to give people a chance to comment
13:17:34 [aharth]
Topic: SVG for spatial: Presented by Satoru Takagi by invitation (confirmed)
13:17:43 [ChrisLittle]
kerry you kept droppping out on audio - is that me or you or all?
13:17:44 [stakagi]
Thank you very much for inviting to conference.
13:17:55 [aharth]
kerry: scalable vector graphics
13:17:56 [stakagi]
First, I would like to introduce the strategy of the standardization activity of mapping on SVG2.
13:18:03 [Linda]
Good audio here Chris
13:18:10 [stakagi]
I want to fuse mapping with a web browser. Because I think mapping is essential function for WWW.
13:18:11 [kerry]
stakagi, your turn to speak please!
13:18:12 [aharth]
... satoru is not on webex but will do presentation on irc
13:18:32 [stakagi]
Yes I am IRC only
13:18:40 [phila]
we're reading you stakagi
13:18:40 [stakagi]
SVG2 is under standardization as a succeeding standards of SVG1.1 snd edition. Probably, it is standardly implemented in web browsers.
13:18:48 [ChrisLittle]
* thanks linda - i'll move nearer my router
13:18:54 [stakagi]
13:19:11 [stakagi]
We set some policies in standardization of the spatial information on SVG.
13:19:28 [stakagi]
Provide a certain effectual result to the drawing function by the browser of SVG.
13:19:38 [stakagi]
That is, don't be satisfied with a mere metadata. The functionality should be implemented as a native functionality of all the web browsers. Besides, we consider that value of Web is concentrated to the web browsers.
13:20:08 [stakagi]
The functionality needed for Web Mapping should turn into a native functionality of a web browsers.
13:20:19 [stakagi]
That is, the functionality of Web Mapping should be offered without massive web Apps.
13:20:26 [stakagi]
We consider that massive Web Apps does not have a not much good effect on the interoperability of a data. Sometimes, it may produce a data silo.
13:20:47 [stakagi]
On the other hand, we believe that the functionality essential to such a mapping should not be a functionality only for a mappping.
13:21:05 [stakagi]
That is, we consider that the functionality it is often used by mapping should be generalized so that it may be used also other than mapping.
13:21:22 [stakagi]
It is because it promotes the native implementation to web browsers. These are the policies which we (KDDI) decided.
13:22:12 [stakagi]
So far, are anything a question and comment ?
13:22:24 [kerry]
13:22:26 [phila]
We're reading your words, stakagi
13:22:33 [stakagi]
13:22:46 [phila]
Please continue, I am likely to have questions later
13:23:01 [stakagi]
Yes continue.
13:23:10 [stakagi]
First, we enumerated needed functionalities on the mapping for us and submitted the documentation which summarized it as a first stage draft specification to W3C as member submission.
13:23:31 [stakagi]
13:23:40 [stakagi]
This is our member submission.
13:23:41 [ChrisLittle]
+1 to general mapping migrating natively to browsers
13:23:59 [stakagi]
Thanks Chris!
13:24:40 [ChrisLittle]
13:24:42 [stakagi]
This submission includes global coordinate systems ( general purpose CRS)
13:24:51 [Frans]
I like the idea of browsers natively recognizing spatial data and being able to display it.
13:25:12 [stakagi]
and Tiling and Layerling.
13:25:17 [kerry]
ack chris
13:25:23 [aharth]
q+ to ask how to link geometries with metadata
13:25:41 [Frans]
Satoro, Well Known Text (WKT) is a popular format for geographic geometry. Are you looking at automated transformation between WKT and SVG?
13:25:49 [stakagi]
SVG has metadata framework
13:26:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
13:26:08 [ChrisLittle]
The OGC has active work in progress on layering and tiling. Is KDDI a member of OGC?
13:26:35 [kerry]
13:26:53 [stakagi]
No, currently KDDI is not OGC member.
13:26:56 [aharth]
13:27:18 [stakagi]
over 15 years ago KDDI was OGC member.
13:27:26 [ChrisLittle]
Joan Masu is Chair of Web Map Tile Service Standard WG, and I Chair Web Coverage Tile Service SWG
13:27:46 [ChrisLittle]
+1 kddi OGC member!
13:27:48 [joshlieberman]
13:27:49 [stakagi]
but past OGC's member is not interested in our work.
13:28:13 [ChrisLittle]
past is past, now is now
13:28:20 [stakagi]
13:28:33 [kerry]
13:28:36 [joshlieberman]
I believe that Carl Reed, former OGC CTO had a fair amount of interaction with the SVG standards working group, but it lapsed.
13:28:55 [phila]
And W3C is the home of SVG, making things first class citiznes of the Web etc. Shall we go on ChrisLittle?
13:29:23 [joshlieberman]
Good to take up again, perhaps by recognizing some mapping use cases, e.g. dealing with geographic projection and feature attributes
13:29:47 [phila]
Do you have more stakagi or should we ask more questions?
13:29:48 [stakagi]
Do you intered in Tiling architecture on SVG?
13:29:53 [kerry]
q+ to ask about CRS
13:30:06 [kerry]
anyone for tiling?
13:30:26 [phila]
Isn't the point of SVG for maps that we can do away with tiling?
13:30:29 [Frans]
I think vector geometry tiling is a hot topic
13:30:49 [joshlieberman]
It is certainly a part of work on geopackage
13:30:58 [stakagi]
I have tiling slide
13:31:07 [stakagi]
13:31:50 [ChrisLittle]
OGC WCTileService has three phases. first, now is for pixel tile, second then point clouds, then lastly geometries, whichare close to SVG
13:31:56 [stakagi]
Tiling on SVG is (probably) much dieerent from WebGIS's tiling architecture.
13:32:14 [kerry]
stakagi, people are speaking about interest in this tiling topc
13:32:14 [Frans]
Is likely to be included in SVG2?
13:32:16 [phila]
How do you define a pixel, ChrisLittle? (CSS pixels are not equal to actiual pixels on the screen for e.g.)
13:32:42 [Linda]
I share phila's question: Isn't the point of SVG for maps that we can do away with tiling?
13:32:44 [stakagi]
Most differnt point is "non arithmetical-pregression".
13:33:06 [ChrisLittle]
Currently, Joan and I are interested in establishing a n-dimensional tiling architecture, to supercede 2-D and layers
13:33:22 [ChrisLittle]
this may not be of interst to 2-D SVG
13:33:39 [Frans]
We could do away with image tiling, vector tiling is a different subject.
13:33:55 [joshlieberman]
Certainly an SVG capability to work with multiple coordinate reference systems as Web mapping apps do, would be very useful (e.g. pixel, viewport, tiling scheme, projected CRS, geo CRS)
13:34:35 [ChrisLittle]
+! to that hierarchy
13:34:54 [ChrisLittle]
13:35:07 [phila]
So you have ideas for how the SVG work and this WG's work can be aligned, stakagi?
13:35:08 [stakagi]
About our submission (
13:35:09 [joshlieberman]
Darn, I was going to be impressed by the emphasis
13:35:11 [phila]
13:35:25 [stakagi]
e expressed that the submitted specification proposal should be once disassembled and it should have been reconstructed based on the view of the SVGWG members. It is because we thought that a generality increased by such procdess. Moreover, many of members of SVGWG are the developers of a well-known web browsers. And the specification which reached their consensus is easy to be implemented in a browser.
13:35:26 [kerry]
13:35:41 [stakagi]
s/e expressed that/we expressed that/
13:35:47 [joshlieberman]
So do we need to consider SVG potential as a spatial data format or its compatibility with spatial data (as a graphic format).
13:36:00 [joshlieberman]
13:36:19 [joshlieberman]
13:36:34 [phila]
q+ to ask about meeting stakagi and other SVGH folks in Sapporo
13:36:38 [kerry]
ack josh
13:36:43 [Frans]
I think SVG alreadt is a spatial data format. Perhaps not geographic, but spatial yes.
13:36:43 [stakagi]
13:36:56 [Frans]
13:37:09 [stakagi]
Yes I think so.
13:37:52 [aharth]
joshlieberman: could we consider svg as spatial data format (with crs...)
13:38:03 [phila]
joshlieberman: Is SVG a spatial format? That's one perspective. Another is, is SVG interoperable with other spatial data formats
13:38:07 [aharth]
... is svg interoperable with other spatial data formats
13:38:53 [kerry]
stakagi, can you comment on interoperability with toher spatail formats?
13:38:59 [ChrisLittle]
SVG certainly made the precessing chain in meteorology shorter
13:39:00 [kerry]
13:39:11 [ChrisLittle]
13:39:17 [phila]
13:39:26 [kerry]
ack kerry
13:39:26 [Zakim]
kerry, you wanted to ask about CRS
13:39:33 [stakagi]
I think SVG is interoperable with other spatial formats
13:39:53 [stakagi]
if CRS is resolved
13:39:55 [joshlieberman]
Chris, is SVG used as a fully expressive spatial data format for mets, or a presentation format?
13:39:59 [kerry]
Stakagi, how does SVG handle coord systems?
13:40:04 [ChrisLittle]
I think various conversion tools like shapefile<->SVG or CGM existed
13:40:26 [stakagi]
The specification of a geographic-coordinates system on SVG1.1 is described here.
13:40:39 [Frans]
I think SVG will remain 2D? Most geographical formats are enabled for 3D
13:40:51 [ChrisLittle]
SVG used for both presentation and archive, thoughI have concerns about latter in context of SVG2
13:41:15 [joshlieberman]
Well, you can consider, e.g., Geoserver a conversion tool, but one of its output formats is SVG. It's a full rendering process, though, from shapefiles for example, requiring the addition of portrayal information.
13:41:15 [stakagi]
Transformation for SVG is 3D.
13:41:28 [ChrisLittle]
We used CGM for distribution of presentations and archive too, but CGM rather niche now
13:41:32 [stakagi]
because CSS3 uses 3d transformations.
13:41:45 [ChrisLittle]
CGM<->SVG very straightforward
13:41:46 [stakagi]
and SVG is tightly coupled with CSS
13:41:55 [aharth]
kerry: so svg is 3d now?
13:42:03 [phila]
Yep. I'm just looking for a ref to SVG 3 D
13:42:10 [stakagi]
But geometry is still 2D.
13:42:27 [stakagi]
13:42:27 [Frans]
Consider 3D source data to be transformed to SVG
13:42:28 [ChrisLittle]
SVG2 has support for the 3D->2D pipeline, but is not strictly 3D
13:42:43 [stakagi]
13:43:14 [kerry]
any comments onthe coords link anyone?
13:43:24 [stakagi]
The specification of a geographic-coordinates system on SVG1.1 is described here. However, geographic-coordinates system on SVG does not agree of the policy described so far. The metadata which does not influence a rendition. Only for geospatial.
13:43:38 [Frans]
support for spherical coordinates would be great
13:43:59 [stakagi]
As expected, this specification is going to be obsoluted on SVG2.
13:44:21 [stakagi]
Then, we proposed the concept of the global coordinate system for realizing the functionality of a tiling and layering. The global coordinate system could be used also as geographic coordinate system. Arbitrary global coordinate systems are specified as URI. However, the spec of SVG2 does not have a global coordinate system yet.
13:44:27 [ChrisLittle]
I think SVG will not support spherical coords. you will have to look towards OpenGL
13:44:34 [Linda]
It says " RDF description of the Coordinate Reference System definition used to generate the SVG map". Interesting....
13:44:35 [stakagi]
13:44:52 [stakagi]
This is out proposal for "global" coordinate systems.
13:45:28 [stakagi]
s/This is out/This is our/
13:45:29 [ChrisLittle]
Global coord system suggests links to OGC DGGS Digitala Global Grid system work
13:45:50 [joshlieberman]
Yes, that's an aspect of trying to make functionality that exists in OpenLayers or Leaflet a native browser function -- for example projecting WGS84 coordinates into Web Mercator for display overlay.
13:45:54 [ChrisLittle]
13:46:13 [ChrisLittle]
-1 web mercator
13:46:57 [kerry]
13:47:04 [Frans]
frans wonders how we can strengthen ties with SVG development in general and in the UCR doc specifically
13:47:14 [joshlieberman]
...As example of a projected coordinate system to avoid the "stupid" aka plat carre projection.
13:47:36 [kerry]
satoru will be at tpac, although SVG WG is not meeting
13:48:03 [phila]
Should we have a session about this at TPAC then?
13:48:27 [stakagi]
Yes I will attend TPAC.
13:48:39 [ChrisLittle]
+1 to session at Sapporo, though not going. Jeremy can cope.
13:48:41 [joshlieberman]
I would suggest two lines of inquiry -- interoperability with spatial data, and a plugin mechanism for more capable spatiotemporal transformations.
13:48:46 [stakagi]
SVG1.1's geographic coordinate systems specification is going to be obsoluted on SVG2.
13:48:59 [Frans]
Perhaps we can at least mention SVG in the UCR document before TPAC
13:49:27 [Linda]
The CRS reference topic is interesting for our CRS discussion as well.
13:49:29 [ChrisLittle]
+1 to Josh's proposed activities at some stage
13:50:10 [stakagi]
Because it is only for metadata. No influece for SVG rendering.
13:50:20 [kerry]
josh: best practice we should look t svg and expressivness
13:50:40 [kerry]
... unclear how to express spatial data we need to learn this
13:50:52 [kerry]
... and maybe motivte some svg work
13:51:00 [kerry]
... sticking point is crs support
13:51:19 [aharth]
... requires looking at transformations and crs support
13:51:26 [kerry]
.... native mapping support is attractive but transformation and coords in a native implmentation is needed
13:51:31 [AndreaPerego]
13:51:49 [aharth]
... is there a way to plug in transformation mechanisms that exist in JS (e.g. OpenLayers)
13:51:51 [kerry]
... can we suggest a way to plug in the transformation mechanisms we know of in javascript apps
13:51:57 [stakagi]
What is transformation?
13:52:05 [ChrisLittle]
13:52:06 [kerry] they do not need to be in everybrowesr but can be plugins
13:52:09 [stakagi]
latitude/longitude to X-Y?
13:52:20 [Frans]
Satoro, do you mean CRS is not on the agenda for SVG 2?
13:52:30 [ChrisLittle]
a plugin issue killed or seriiously damaged SVG ten years ago
13:52:40 [kerry]
s/everybrowesr/every browser
13:52:46 [aharth]
phila: it would be interesting to define a JS-aligned web api to do a translation
13:52:59 [aharth]
... OpenLayers (or similar) could enact that
13:53:00 [stakagi]
Probably we can't understand geo-community's CRS meanings.
13:53:15 [aharth]
... geolocations API (separate group) is defining an API for geofencing and so on
13:53:28 [stakagi]
Yes I don't like plug-in or other extensions.
13:53:41 [aharth]
... just define the API, inner workings do not need to be detailed
13:53:50 [kerry]
satoru, crs is an hot topic in the group, taht we have not resolved
13:54:08 [Frans]
I think there should be simpler level CRS definitions anyway
13:54:35 [AndreaPerego]
13:54:46 [Frans]
... we need to bridge the gap between geographical data and spatial data in SDWWG
13:54:52 [kerry]
thank you satoru!
13:54:54 [aharth]
kerry: thanks satoru for making time
13:55:05 [joshlieberman]
Thanks from Josh as well.
13:55:07 [kerry]
ACTIONto kerry to follow up with SVG
13:55:12 [stakagi]
The definition of CRS is unclear in general purpose
13:55:24 [aharth]
ACTION: kerry to follow up with SVG
13:55:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-60 - Follow up with svg [on Kerry Taylor - due 2015-08-12].
13:55:46 [kerry]
Satoru, thankyou for your presntation!
13:56:10 [aharth]
chrislittle: phila, which of the svg wg members with be in sapporo
13:56:15 [kerry]
Satoru, I will ensure we continue a conversation, there is a lot of interest in this group
13:56:22 [aharth]
phila: doug will be there
13:56:31 [stakagi]
13:56:48 [kerry]
returning to webex
13:56:53 [AndreaPerego]
s/thankyou for your presntation/thank you for your presentation/
13:56:56 [aharth]
kerry: back to audio
13:57:07 [stakagi]
I would like to understand CRS well first.
13:57:17 [Linda]
Any hotel suggestions for Sapporo?
13:57:24 [aharth]
... reminder: put your attendance on the wiki for TPAC
13:57:31 [ChrisLittle]
I did!
13:57:33 [aharth]
13:57:57 [stakagi]
The hotel in Japan is mostly narrow.
13:58:25 [aharth]
Topic: Best Practice Issues as raised by Jeremy
13:58:34 [Payam]
Jeremy's email:
13:58:35 [aharth]
kerry: we ran a bit out of time
13:58:36 [Frans]
13:58:58 [aharth]
... i might coordinate with payam about trying to find volunteers
13:59:15 [Payam]
13:59:22 [Payam]
13:59:26 [aharth]
... relating topics in the document with web architecture and use cases
13:59:40 [Payam]
Jeremy's email:
14:00:00 [aharth]
kerry: thank you everybody, esp. to Satoru
14:00:05 [AndreaPerego]
Thanks and bye
14:00:10 [Alejandro_Llaves]
thanks, bye"
14:00:11 [billrobe_]
thanks bye
14:00:12 [Linda]
14:00:12 [Frans]
14:00:13 [BartvanLeeuwen]
thx bye
14:00:19 [joshlieberman]
Thanks bye
14:00:20 [kostas]
thanks bye!
14:00:27 [ChrisLittle]
bye and thanks
14:00:28 [joshlieberman]
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14:00:31 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:00:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
14:00:50 [ChrisLittle]
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14:04:13 [stakagi]
kerry: do you have more time?
14:05:10 [stakagi]
I wold ike to understand your CRS concept.
14:08:42 [stakagi]
I would like to understand it strictly by the grade that those who are not Geo community can understand CRS.
14:09:27 [stakagi]
First, what is the difference between the coordinate system of SVG and CRS?
14:09:53 [stakagi]
I am reading :
16:16:47 [Zakim]
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