IRC log of aria on 2015-07-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:29:07 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #aria
- 16:29:07 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-irc
- 16:29:09 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 16:29:09 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #aria
- 16:29:11 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
- 16:29:11 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- 16:29:12 [trackbot]
- Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
- 16:29:12 [trackbot]
- Date: 30 July 2015
- 16:29:13 [MichaelC]
- agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0088.html
- 16:31:00 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
- 16:31:03 [fesch]
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- 16:31:13 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 16:31:16 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- chair: Rich
- 16:31:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
- 16:31:36 [janina]
- present+ janina
- 16:31:50 [MichielBijl]
- present+ Michiel_Bijl
- 16:32:06 [clown]
- clown has joined #aria
- 16:32:12 [MichaelC]
- present+ Rich, MichaelC
- 16:33:01 [fesch]
- present+ fesch
- 16:33:26 [MichaelC]
- present+ Michiel
- 16:33:44 [MichaelC]
- present+ Jemma
- 16:33:46 [clown]
- present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
- 16:33:50 [MichielBijl]
- present- Michiel
- 16:33:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0088.html
- 16:34:42 [Jemma]
- Jemma has joined #aria
- 16:34:57 [jongund]
- jongund has joined #aria
- 16:37:18 [MichielBijl]
- scribe: MichielBijl
- 16:37:51 [MichielBijl]
- Jemma: I work for UI, my first time here
- 16:38:03 [MichielBijl]
- Jemma: I work with John
- 16:38:14 [MichaelC]
- s/John/Jon/
- 16:40:28 [mgylling]
- mgylling has joined #aria
- 16:41:43 [MichielBijl]
- MichaelC: received comments that ARIA should not focus on accessibility API's; just API's in general
- 16:42:04 [jamesn]
- jamesn has joined #aria
- 16:43:08 [MichielBijl]
- MichaelC: drafting a response to Charles
- 16:43:36 [MichaelC]
- present+ JamesN
- 16:44:16 [MichaelC]
- present+ Bryan
- 16:44:18 [MichielBijl]
- present+ jongund
- 16:44:23 [MichaelC]
- present+ Markus
- 16:44:37 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 16:44:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html jamesn
- 16:45:03 [bgaraventa1979]
- bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
- 16:45:38 [bgaraventa1979]
- present+ Bryan_Garaventa
- 16:45:50 [MichielBijl]
- present- Bryan
- 16:47:17 [clown]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0049.html
- 16:47:36 [MichielBijl]
- janina: ask DPUb to update document
- 16:47:46 [MichielBijl]
- s/DPUb/DPUB
- 16:48:10 [MichielBijl]
- topic: Heds Up Items
- 16:48:20 [MichielBijl]
- s/Heds/Heads
- 16:49:01 [MichielBijl]
- Rich: what I want to ask to group, is be pragmatic about; don't want it to be a emotional discussion
- 16:50:15 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: Apple had publishers coming in that said they need this
- 16:50:31 [MichielBijl]
- janina: we will be very formal about this disposition
- 16:51:31 [MichielBijl]
- janina: I would propose adding the document from DPUB if we keep aria-describedat
- 16:51:36 [mgylling]
- q+
- 16:52:01 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- ack mgylling
- 16:52:13 [MichielBijl]
- mgylling: everything you said about publishers showing up on the 13th is true
- 16:52:19 [MichielBijl]
- mgylling: we need it
- 16:52:36 [MichielBijl]
- mgylling: we don't want to be the ones that potentially stall the aria progress
- 16:53:31 [MichielBijl]
- janina: we have talked about that possibility
- 16:54:01 [MichielBijl]
- janina: ARIA 1.1 is on schedule
- 16:54:21 [clown]
- issue-633?
- 16:54:21 [trackbot]
- issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
- 16:54:21 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
- 16:54:30 [clown]
- action-1688?
- 16:54:30 [trackbot]
- action-1688 -- James Nurthen to Draft proposal for aria-interactive -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
- 16:54:30 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688
- 16:55:00 [MichielBijl]
- jamesn: I'm on vacation, so cannot push action forward
- 16:55:40 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: let me have a look at it
- 16:56:18 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: I'm gonna put on the 23rd of september
- 16:56:37 [MichielBijl]
- issue-397
- 16:56:37 [trackbot]
- issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size -- open
- 16:56:37 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
- 16:56:37 [clown]
- action-1488
- 16:56:37 [trackbot]
- action-1488 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 -- due 2015-07-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
- 16:56:38 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1488
- 16:57:37 [MichielBijl]
- MichaelC: there is note that went privately to richardschwerdtfeger and me
- 16:58:42 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: I'm going to forward it to the list
- 17:01:02 [clown]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#aria-setsize
- 17:02:29 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: suffix with a + sign to indicate the setsize is at least that amount
- 17:03:20 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: where do you map the +?
- 17:04:46 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: AT's have to handle this too
- 17:04:59 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: they can't announce percentage of progress
- 17:05:19 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: for the + syntax, we have to change it from an integer to a string
- 17:06:08 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: how big of an issue is this? (for API's)
- 17:06:18 [clown]
- issue-397?
- 17:06:18 [trackbot]
- issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size -- open
- 17:06:18 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
- 17:06:39 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: we can do, no question
- 17:06:59 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: you can put it in the spec, but it's at risk if we can't find mappings
- 17:07:29 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: the apple platform does not have a object mapping
- 17:07:44 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: James Craig is not against it
- 17:08:01 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: is it mapped to AXValue?
- 17:08:21 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: oh it's AXARIASetSize
- 17:08:53 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: to me this comes down to an API mapping issue
- 17:09:31 [MichielBijl]
- If an unknown set size exceeds a known and meaningful amount, authors may append a plus sign ("+") to the value to communicate the set size is at least that amount. Otherwise, authors should set the value of aria-setsize to -1.
- 17:09:47 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: are people okay with this?
- 17:10:34 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: Cynthia said the IE team likes the setsize="-1" notation
- 17:11:58 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: that to me means that they don't like the + notation
- 17:13:11 [MichielBijl]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#progressbar
- 17:13:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#progressbar
- 17:13:32 [MichielBijl]
- If the progressbar is describing the loading progress of a particular region of a page, the author SHOULD use aria-describedby to point to the status, and set the aria-busy attribute to true on the region until it is finished loading
- 17:15:12 [MichielBijl]
- jamesn: prefer to say we have at least X
- 17:16:03 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: does anyone object to setsize="-1"?
- 17:17:37 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: the resolution is that we will specify an indeterminate by setting setsize to -1
- 17:17:57 [MichielBijl]
- RESOLUTION: we will specify an indeterminate by setting setsize to -1
- 17:19:12 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- RESOLUTION: We will not be supporting set sizes 999+ for sizes of at least that size for ARIA 1.1
- 17:19:57 [MichielBijl]
- action-1498
- 17:19:57 [trackbot]
- action-1498 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- due 2015-07-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
- 17:19:57 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1498
- 17:20:50 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: using the term role on a link will mean that the link role is lost
- 17:20:51 [clown]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#term
- 17:21:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- [ARIA 1.1] A word or phrase with a corresponding definition. See related definition.
- 17:21:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- The term role is used to explicitly identify a word or phrase for which a definition has been provided by the author or is expected to be provided by the user.
- 17:21:38 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- Authors SHOULD NOT use the term role on interactive elements such as links because doing so could prevent users of assistive technologies from interacting with those elements.
- 17:22:57 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: the problem is, we had a definition role, but no term role
- 17:23:45 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: we need a link to definition in the second paragraph
- 17:24:17 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: the term is interactive, and if you click it the definition shows
- 17:25:14 [MichielBijl]
- janina: I like that clicking the term shows the definition
- 17:25:56 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: what we're saying is that the definition must immediately follow the term
- 17:26:00 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: it's like dt an dd
- 17:26:29 [clown]
- s/dt an dd/dt and dd/
- 17:26:31 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: do we need a definition list role?
- 17:27:15 [clown]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#definition
- 17:27:44 [MichielBijl]
- jongund: why not use term and term-item?
- 17:28:27 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: role definition should have a aria-labelledby on it
- 17:28:40 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: then should it be in a list? You can have it anywhere
- 17:32:25 [MichielBijl]
- jongund: could I use an aria-label on the definition?
- 17:32:50 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: you cannot because you don't have a visual link between the term and the definition
- 17:33:03 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: the term and the definition don't have to be side by side
- 17:34:36 [MichielBijl]
- fesch: what happens when you have multiple definitions pointed to the same term
- 17:34:55 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: that is allowed with dt's and dd's in the HTML spec
- 17:35:00 [joanie]
- regrets+ Joanmarie_Diggs
- 17:37:57 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- Proposal: we accept Joanie’s text for action 1498 with the caviat that the second paragraph link the definition text with the definition role and that in the definition role the aria-labelledy SHOULD point to an element with a role of “term”
- 17:39:24 [MichielBijl]
- MichielBijl: mgylling: what about aria-describedBy on the term?
- 17:39:30 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: you could do that
- 17:39:37 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: the author could screw up
- 17:39:54 [MichielBijl]
- mgylling: I wasn't saying we should have both, just wondering
- 17:41:21 [richardschwerdtfeger]
- RESOLUTION: Accept Rich’s proposal and jave Joanie make the changes and close out action 1498 and the associated issue
- 17:41:54 [MichielBijl]
- action-1657
- 17:41:54 [trackbot]
- action-1657 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Make aria-level a required attribute for role=“heading” -- due 2015-06-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW
- 17:41:54 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1657
- 17:42:18 [clown]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
- 17:42:41 [MichielBijl]
- Where it states: "If headings are organized into a logical outline, the aria-level attribute can be used to indicate the nesting level."
- 17:42:54 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: all we have to do, is make it a required attribute
- 17:43:13 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: it's required in the characteristics table
- 17:43:54 [clown]
- https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
- 17:44:36 [MichielBijl]
- A heading for a section of the page.
- 17:44:36 [MichielBijl]
- Often, heading elements will be referenced with the aria-labelledby attribute of the section for which they serve as a heading. If headings are organized into a logical outline, the aria-level attribute is used to indicate the nesting level.
- 17:45:11 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: resolution: accept joanie's trunk
- 17:45:28 [MichielBijl]
- s/trunk/text
- 17:46:18 [MichielBijl]
- RESOLUTION: accept joanie's text, and close the action and issue
- 17:46:38 [MichielBijl]
- issue-736
- 17:46:38 [trackbot]
- issue-736 -- aria-label overriding listitem and treeitem content when need to know content is valuable -- open
- 17:46:38 [trackbot]
- https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/736
- 17:47:53 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: in other words, the content is important
- 17:48:13 [clown]
- https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0097.html
- 17:48:23 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: how do you think we should approach this one?
- 17:48:30 [clown]
- http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/ListItemsWithLabels.html
- 17:48:38 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: I setup a use case, with and without an aria-label
- 17:49:23 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: if you put a label on it, the name is changed, but the content is still available in AI2 and ??
- 17:49:47 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: by putting an aria-label on it should the content be ignored?
- 17:49:58 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: take a look at my usecase
- 17:51:26 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: what if the additional content inside the list item is important?
- 17:51:35 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: it's still available
- 17:51:53 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: but how do users know that they should drill into the list item?
- 17:52:36 [MichielBijl]
- bgaraventa1979: we have the same problem with aria grid, if you have a grid cell with a list with 200+ items; you don't want all that information to be announced
- 17:52:58 [MichielBijl]
- bgaraventa1979: there is no limit to how much content you can stuff into a list item
- 17:54:01 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: would you want to know if the content inside has additional value?
- 17:54:52 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: if you don't put the label on, the name is taken from the content
- 17:54:54 [MichielBijl]
- jamesn: that is in the spec
- 17:55:14 [MichielBijl]
- jamesn: if it's the same content, it's an author error; not our problem, right?
- 17:55:32 [MichielBijl]
- bgaraventa1979: if you put aria-label on it, AT hides the content
- 17:55:40 [MichielBijl]
- jamesn: that is how it's supposed to be
- 17:57:06 [MichielBijl]
- Joseph: the AT hides the content, it's available in the a11y API's
- 17:57:41 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: I'd like people to think about this for a week
- 17:58:34 [MichielBijl]
- jamesn: a tweet is a good example, you want the author and tweet text to be announced at the list item level; you don't want the reply, etc buttons announced
- 17:58:47 [MichielBijl]
- richardschwerdtfeger: let's take this up next week
- 17:59:07 [MichielBijl]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 17:59:07 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html MichielBijl
- 18:03:21 [MichielBijl]
- Still says -DRAFT-
- 18:05:13 [MichaelC]
- scribeOptions: -final
- 18:05:28 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 18:05:28 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
- 18:27:11 [joanie]
- RRSAgent, stop