IRC log of mobile-a11y on 2015-07-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:36:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:36:23 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/23-mobile-a11y-irc
14:36:25 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:36:25 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:36:27 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:36:27 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:36:28 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:36:28 [trackbot]
Date: 23 July 2015
14:36:29 [Kim]
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14:37:05 [Kim]
trackbot, start meeting
14:37:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:37:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:37:09 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:37:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:37:10 [trackbot]
Date: 23 July 2015
14:41:30 [Kim]
chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin
14:44:37 [Kim]
Agenda+ Continuation of the Survey Discussion- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/
14:44:37 [Kim]
Agenda+ M016 - https://github.com/detlevhfischer/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/blob/patch-1/Techniques/M016.html
14:44:37 [Kim]
Agenda+ Status of Techniques
14:44:37 [Kim]
agenda+ Continuation of the Survey Discussion- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/
14:44:39 [Kim]
agenda+ M016 - https://github.com/detlevhfischer/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/blob/patch-1/Techniques/M016.html
14:44:39 [Kim]
agenda+ Status of Techniques
14:45:31 [Kim]
zakim, close item 4
14:45:32 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Continuation of the Survey Discussion- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/, closed
14:45:32 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:45:32 [Zakim]
1. Continuation of the Survey Discussion- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/ [from Kim]
14:45:42 [Kim]
zakim, close item 5
14:45:42 [Zakim]
agendum 5, M016 - https://github.com/detlevhfischer/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/blob/patch-1/Techniques/M016.html, closed
14:45:44 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:45:44 [Zakim]
1. Continuation of the Survey Discussion- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/ [from Kim]
14:45:52 [Kim]
zakim, close item 6
14:45:52 [Zakim]
agendum 6, Status of Techniques, closed
14:45:53 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:45:53 [Zakim]
1. Continuation of the Survey Discussion- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/ [from Kim]
14:53:45 [Detlev]
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15:01:55 [Kathy]
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15:02:42 [jon_avila]
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15:03:18 [Kathy]
present+ Kathy
15:04:12 [marcjohlic]
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15:05:20 [marcjohlic]
present+ marcjohlic
15:08:03 [Kathy]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/results
15:08:28 [David]
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15:08:49 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
15:09:07 [jeanne]
Kathy: On the last call, we had talked about Touchend
15:09:15 [jeanne]
agenda?
15:09:34 [jeanne]
zakim, take up item 1
15:09:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Continuation of the Survey Discussion- https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150717_survey/" taken up [from Kim]
15:09:57 [Kathy]
http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/Techniques/M003
15:10:15 [jeanne]
Last week we didn't have a lot of expertise on Touch Events and touchend where they can cause problems with keyboard access.
15:10:59 [jeanne]
Kim, with touchend you can slide your finger off without activating it. This is important.
15:11:32 [jeanne]
Jon: There maybe situations where there it is acceptable for touch action -- like putting your signature on it.
15:11:57 [jeanne]
... the keyboard aspect is more for on-screen signature.
15:12:33 [jeanne]
... If you are drawing a letter, you don't lift your hand until the end of the signature.
15:12:42 [David]
Keyboard: All functionality of the content is operable through a keyboard interface without requiring specific timings for individual keystrokes, except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints. (Level A)
15:12:44 [David]
Note 1: This exception relates to the underlying function, not the input technique. For example, if using handwriting to enter text, the input technique (handwriting) requires path-dependent input but the underlying function (text input) does not.
15:12:45 [David]
Note 2: This does not forbid and should not discourage providing mouse input or other input methods in addition to keyboard operation.
15:12:49 [jeanne]
Detlev: Are there any other examples
15:13:01 [jeanne]
Jeanne: a Flyout menu
15:13:09 [jeanne]
Jon: Gestures like scrolling
15:14:01 [jeanne]
David: THis is the WCAG exception - if the paths are not straight between the endpoints, The signature would be exception.
15:14:12 [jeanne]
Jon: and there are more exceptions: drag and drop.
15:15:11 [jeanne]
David: the exception is the Path -- not necessarily not a straight path.
15:15:42 [jeanne]
Kathy: Jan said that we should limit it to actions that cause a change of context.
15:16:19 [jeanne]
Kim: a Swipe gestures?
15:17:39 [jeanne]
Detlev: What is the difference between a change of context -- for example, a radio button?
15:18:02 [jeanne]
... pressing a link, selecting a checkbox -- a more binary activity.
15:18:51 [jeanne]
Kim: what are you gaining for not letting your finger off it.
15:19:10 [jeanne]
Jon: it allows you to quickly glance at something without opening it full screen.
15:19:53 [jeanne]
Kim: I see the shade control. Does that have to be an exception?
15:20:32 [jeanne]
Detlev: This is a technique for a developer that is bound to specific web sites. Is that correct?
15:20:45 [jeanne]
Jon: I think it goes beyond apps
15:21:50 [jeanne]
Kim: the Shade, you don't slide your finger off it, you flick it back up. If you are used to this action, is the user going to be confused if it doesn't behave the way they expect?
15:22:34 [jeanne]
Detlev: The different user agents allow different behaviors. It is beyond the scope of what web developers can control. Can't we bracket that you and focus on what web developers can do?
15:22:44 [jeanne]
Jon: Web devvelopers can create Shades.
15:23:46 [jeanne]
Kim: @@
15:24:06 [jeanne]
Detlev: It applies to more things like a checkbox, a button, a link.
15:24:22 [jeanne]
Kim: Better to define what you want and not have it apply to everything else.
15:24:51 [jeanne]
Jon: We need the success criteria with all the exceptions, than the Technique could focus on one aspect.
15:25:28 [Kim]
Kim: said moving an icon to a different position on the screen is also direct action like shade
15:25:31 [jeanne]
... we need to have Failure techniques
15:26:04 [jeanne]
Kathy: Would it make sense to draft the Success Criteria now, or do we need more research.
15:26:15 [jeanne]
Jon: The challenge is that we go back and forth
15:27:07 [David]
+1
15:27:52 [David]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G107.html
15:27:53 [jeanne]
Jeanne: We can start writing what will eventually become success criteria as long as we don't call them normative success criteria yet. WE can flag them so we know that is what it will be, once we are chartered to do that.
15:28:13 [jeanne]
Detlev: This is a modification of an existing Technique.
15:28:27 [jeanne]
... for those it is valid, whether it is a touch or mouse interaction
15:29:23 [jeanne]
Jon: there isn't an exact parallet with G116. With this touch technique, we are talking about users putting their finger on an element that they don't want to. It doesn't fit well into the current WCAG>
15:29:31 [jeanne]
Detlev: you are right, it is different.
15:29:54 [jeanne]
s/parallet with G116./parallel with G107.
15:30:36 [jeanne]
scribe: Kim
15:31:08 [Kim]
Jon: this is really about with a touch device it so much easier for someone to accidentally touch the wrong thing especially with motor dexterity challenges.
15:31:27 [Kim]
Jon: I don't know exactly where it fits – helping the user prevent errors almost related to that but not
15:31:51 [Kim]
Detlev: maybe touch operable but that doesn't exist yet
15:32:26 [Kim]
Jeanne: we should be able to write things that are not in WCAG – not yet, but that's the direction we're going
15:32:49 [Kim]
Jon: people are really looking for this – at least a best practice someplace where the experts agree
15:33:31 [Kim]
Kathy: as long as we maintain WCAG
15:34:01 [Kim]
David: May pick up WCAG with extension for mobile
15:34:22 [Kim]
David: like a Zen diagram with WCAG inside it
15:34:51 [Kim]
Kathy: given that – regardless of what principle it would go under is there a success criteria in here that we can roughly word – this scenario that we've been talking about
15:35:16 [Kim]
David: it would definitely go in operable
15:35:53 [Kim]
Marc: somewhere under 2.2
15:36:23 [Kim]
Jon: feels like some of our potential success criteria don't fit under a number like 2.1 but they may fit under 2. Could we create our own numbers
15:36:48 [Kim]
David: I would say yes when we were making WCAG we thought of all kinds of other success criteria that got dropped
15:37:10 [David]
Operable: 2.5 User can recover from wrongly placed finger while finger remains on screen
15:37:59 [Kim]
Kathy: I doing that it might be easier to have it as an extension – no conflict with other extensions, we'll have to wait and see how much crossover there is
15:39:18 [Kim]
Kathy: it's not just the success criteria but adding aanother whole guideline – if we added a guideline for touch or touch operability we could have some success criteria under that. So if we went down that path what would be some of the success criteria that we could make sure we don't lose at this point
15:39:45 [Kim]
David: Guideline said something about touch events and all are touch events would be in this particular success criteria – all our techniques
15:40:16 [jeanne]
We have sections in Mobile Accessibility Note that we could build from.
15:40:55 [Kim]
David: mention behavior that technology – you can put your finger on the screen and move it without activating an event. We could have a success criteria that require that – this is a new way of interacting we never anticipated a blind person interacting with the screen. It's a whole new area. We can create a bucket for all that stuff – all the characteristics of touching like the...
15:40:56 [Kim]
...size is...
15:40:58 [Kim]
...big enough
15:41:08 [Kim]
David: characteristics, sizes, behaviors
15:41:45 [Kim]
Jon: primarily related to principal 2, these could be a success criteria
15:42:15 [Kim]
David: we may find that in these extension specs we may need to provide guidance it's not testable, so we couldn't make it required. We will probably run into that more in cognitive
15:42:33 [Jan]
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15:43:07 [Kim]
Jeanne: at least we will know which is testable and which isn't – mark it so we can change it later. We've done a lot of this already..
15:44:34 [Kim]
Jeanne: we'll have to go back and recode as details get worked out, but we are the leading group in figuring out extensions and what they can do – that's why a lot of the stuff isn't worked out yet but the way we do it and the problems we find in the successes we find will shape other taskforces: cognitive, low-vision
15:44:52 [Kim]
Kathy: ideas for success criteria that would go under a new guideline so we don't lose track of the things we talked about today?
15:45:36 [Kim]
David: the mobile note we have right now – written things so that their success criterion?
15:45:38 [Kim]
Jeanne: just coded them that way
15:47:04 [Kim]
Kathy: review for Jan - touch doesn't fit under guideline, touch guideline and success criteria under that
15:47:47 [Kim]
Jon: what we want to capture from today's discussion is the exceptions we talked about touch end and touch start
15:49:32 [Kim]
Jon: direct control – would like the exception to be a little bit more broad than just the examples we thought of
15:49:46 [Jan]
JR: Wondering if mouse and other pointers could fit under such a new guideline addressing touch
15:50:05 [Kim]
Detlev: things that involve tap gestures rather than slides
15:50:27 [Kim]
David: we can probably solve most of the problem just by saying buttons and links and probably two or three other things – static things, things that don't require movement, there are other ways we can say it
15:51:03 [Kim]
Detlev: action initiated by touch start such as text entry boxes. is there any harm on doing that on touch start as long as you don't change the contents?
15:51:40 [Kim]
David: I don't see why you wouldn't want to do that on touch end – you have to take your finger off to start touching anyway. Say I didn't get it right, slide into it, lift my finger off and then start typing. I think that's fine. I think interactive elements that are static or don't require movement or something like that
15:52:02 [Kim]
Detlev: do you want me to add those conditional stuff as we go forward with this technique
15:52:24 [Kim]
David: we want to add success criteria technique is one layer below – it's a principal and a pretty fundamental principle and doesn't require us to talk about specific technologies
15:53:13 [Kim]
David: for success criterion it would be a little bit shorter the title would maybe be a sentence or something we just need to find a pithy way to say it to capture what it is we are trying to say. It's basically anything that's interactive and static that you don't need to move on it in order to make it work we want to make sure that it's touch off. That's the starting point
15:53:37 [Kim]
Kathy: we can change it to be more of a success criteria and then build off of that – the actual techniques we can look at what we have in notes, the exceptions. That might be a good way to go
15:53:45 [Kim]
David: I'm excited about making a new success criterion
15:54:41 [Kim]
Jon: one more comment about exceptions – why it might be useful to have exceptions. There might be other ways to solve this problem – could you and your application say I'm going to allow things to be on direct touch but put a delay factor in their, and I want activated for one second or two second and give them time to touch something else – could that meet the requirements of users?
15:55:00 [Kim]
David: yes, but from a usability perspective people will get anxious if things don't happen right away
15:55:44 [Kim]
Jon: if you release your finger it would happen immediately but if you touch your finger, and then drag away. If you haven't moved your finger away and three seconds is going to initiate anyway or if you lift your finger on the place you touch it will activate immediately
15:56:06 [Kim]
Detlev: it's not a very common paradigm so I wouldn't be surprised if people were surprised – it would need user testing at least
15:56:42 [Kim]
Jon: not saying it's great just trying to think of exceptions. how do we meet the outcome based goal
15:57:16 [Kim]
David: after we get these drafted I can run them by mobile developers – can you think of anything you can do that this would mess up? I have some sources, people doing movable app for professional organizations I'm sure others have that too
15:57:55 [Kim]
Jeanne: wording from UAAG – "provide a mechanism to" and then developers have a means to solve that in a way that works best for them
15:58:46 [Kim]
Kathy: at the end of the call – great discussion. Detlev do you have enough to rework this as a success criteria.
15:59:11 [Kim]
Detlev: sure – I don't know where to put it because we don't have success criteria marked up yet – can we create a dummy 2.5?
15:59:26 [Kim]
Jeanne: send it in email – I'll put it in the document
15:59:53 [Kim]
Kathy: Detlev, if you want to send it to David first for feedback.
16:00:01 [MichaelC_]
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16:00:06 [Kim]
Jeanne: send it to the list that's the best way
16:00:10 [jeanne]
regrets for next week
16:00:19 [Kim]
Kathy: send others so we can put them on a survey
16:04:21 [MichaelC__]
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16:07:09 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/23-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:07:56 [Kim]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:07:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/23-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim
16:08:11 [Kim]
rrsagent, bye
16:08:11 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items