16:30:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:30:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/23-aria-irc
16:30:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:30:20 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:30:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:30:22 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:30:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:30:23 <trackbot> Date: 23 July 2015
16:30:25 <MichaelC__> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0066.html
16:30:52 <MichaelC> present+ Janina, Fred, MichaelC
16:31:04 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #aria
16:32:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aria
16:32:23 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:32:31 <MichaelC> present+ Tzviya
16:32:36 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:33:26 <MichaelC> present+ Rich
16:33:31 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:33:34 <MichaelC> chair: Rich
16:34:51 <MichaelC> present+ Michiel
16:35:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0076.html
16:35:10 <MichielBijl> I'll keep myself muted during my commute ;)
16:35:43 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:36:00 <MichielBijl> I'll introduce myself when I'm home ;)
16:36:09 <MichielBijl> Thanks!
16:37:04 <janina> scribe: janina
16:37:33 <janina> topic: ARIA Charter
16:37:40 <janina> rs: Out for review and balloting
16:37:51 <janina> rs: We have some negative comments
16:38:08 <janina> rs: Had errors, i.e. a misread of when 1.1 is finished
16:38:45 <janina> janina: Please AC refs to follow through on balloting
16:38:59 <janina> mc: SAP hasn't voted ...
16:39:20 <janina> mc: Ah, also Igalia
16:39:31 <janina> mc: Also Wylie
16:39:52 <janina> topic: Issue-633
16:39:56 <janina> issue-633?
16:39:56 <trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
16:39:56 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
16:39:57 <tzviya> s/Wylie/Wiley
16:40:18 <janina> rs: Do we have wrong due date? October?
16:40:26 <janina> mc: Believe due to vacation time
16:40:42 <janina> rs: Can we advance this? We need to close 1.1
16:40:42 <clown> action-1688?
16:40:42 <trackbot> action-1688 -- James Nurthen to Draft proposal for aria-interactive -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
16:40:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688
16:40:48 <janina> rs: OK, next week
16:40:53 <janina> topic: Issue-651
16:40:58 <janina> issue-651?
16:40:58 <trackbot> issue-651 -- Allow aria-invalid to specify more types of errors including custom errors -- raised
16:40:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
16:41:10 <janina> action-1680?
16:41:10 <trackbot> action-1680 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
16:41:10 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1680
16:41:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-errormessage
16:41:41 <janina> js: Discussed at length last week, several comments on text
16:41:51 <janina> js: I have now edited the text, removed notes, and merged
16:42:50 <janina> rs: Should we categorize live region roles in spec? I cross-ref via APG always
16:43:05 <janina> rs: Any objection?
16:43:29 <janina> mc: 5.3.5
16:43:36 <janina> mc: All there
16:43:48 <janina> rs: Suggest cross link
16:44:01 <janina> rs: "May" is OK?
16:44:09 <janina> js: Nurthen objected to "must"
16:44:49 <janina> mc: Form being validated after submission, you want the results at the end, not item by item
16:45:07 <MichaelC> present+ Stefan
16:45:58 <tzviya> q+
16:46:22 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan
16:46:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:46:48 <MichaelC> ack t
16:47:04 <janina> ts: Thinking about how might be used in assessments
16:47:18 <janina> ts: Not an error
16:47:27 <janina> rs: Can just use alert, doesn't need to be error
16:47:37 <janina> ts: Functionally works more like error
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16:47:57 <janina> rs: Does it need to be bound to something in content?
16:47:59 <janina> rs: Yes
16:48:20 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:48:23 <janina> ts: Pointing out there are many scenarios
16:48:45 <janina> rs: OK to use error even though not an error -- a best practices
16:49:00 <janina> rs: Could be assertive alert
16:49:54 <janina> rs: One needs to test, because you need to know whether alert/error will interrupt TTS speech, and is that OK?
16:49:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:50:22 <janina> rs: Any objection to revised text? OK for spec?
16:50:26 <janina> [crickets]
16:50:38 <janina> RESOLUTION: ARIA-Errormessage to spec
16:50:49 <janina> close action-1680
16:50:49 <trackbot> Closed action-1680.
16:51:37 <janina> close issue-651
16:51:37 <trackbot> Closed issue-651.
16:51:49 <janina> js: Now we need mappings!
16:51:58 <janina> rs: Lucky us!
16:52:15 <janina> topic: Key shortcut
16:52:29 <janina> mc: Did discuss -- I didn't want to make decisions without rs
16:52:32 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-minutes.html#item05 Keyboard shortcut discussion last week
16:52:44 <janina> mc: Decision to throw to TF
16:53:08 <janina> rs: But this is not replacement for AccessKey
16:53:21 <clown> action-1642
16:53:21 <trackbot> action-1642 -- Michael Cooper to Create aria-keyshortcut proposal to group -- due 2015-06-11 -- CLOSED
16:53:21 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1642
16:53:25 <janina> rs: Inconsistent across browsers, has many issues
16:53:42 <janina> rs: This one is documentation for users to inform what key sequences are available for a particular control
16:53:45 <clown> issue-711?
16:53:45 <trackbot> issue-711 -- Expose Keyboard Shortcut help information to ATs -- open
16:53:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/711
16:55:24 <janina> janina: New AccessKey proposal is more elaborate, but unclear how it will move forward, and how quickly
16:55:30 <janina> rs: Let's put it out for now
16:55:48 <janina> rs: Dominic following dom3 spec. Are there other gaps?
16:55:51 <janina> [crickets]
16:56:26 <janina> rs: What happens when multiple commands use the same shortcut? The author is responsible? But what happens?
16:56:38 <janina> rs: It's a bug
16:56:56 <janina> js: Mashup is an example
16:57:35 <janina> js: Expect this also applies to AccessKey
16:57:46 <janina> mc: Even with due dillegence on mashup, things can change
16:58:31 <janina> rs: Would you put shortcuts in on a mashup?
16:58:50 <janina> mc: Often stand alone
16:58:55 <janina> rs: typically in iframe
16:59:01 <janina> rs: Would need focus in iframe
16:59:08 <janina> mc: Believe yes
16:59:34 <janina> mc: Seem to recall whether the spec intent is that shourtcuts bounded by their frame
16:59:53 <janina> rs: Any objection to adding keyboard to spec?
17:00:11 <janina> fe: Sighted users aren't made aware
17:00:19 <janina> rs: Yes
17:00:35 <janina> mc: I always prefer keyboard, especially on tablet
17:01:00 <janina> mc: Don't object to putting in spec, but expect a lot of feedback, and we should call it out
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17:01:14 <janina> rs: Yes, let's see what we get back
17:01:19 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #aria
17:01:21 <joanie> q+
17:01:25 <janina> rs: AccessKey also not shown
17:01:36 <janina> rs: One could create a plugin to make them visible
17:01:50 <janina> rs: Best practices guidance for authoring would be useful
17:01:57 <MichielBijl> I'm still wondering how this would work from an AT's perspective: do they announce them at the start of the page?
17:01:59 <janina> rs: Including making them visible
17:02:13 <janina> fe: May see underlined char
17:02:31 <joanie> q-
17:02:48 <janina> mc: Matt still awol ... Needs to get back in touch
17:02:59 <janina> mc: James also much on vacation through August
17:03:11 <janina> rs: Any concern with action for APG on this?
17:04:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> action: Nurthen provide guidance in authorthing practices for exposing aria-kbdshorcuts
17:04:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1690 - Provide guidance in authorthing practices for exposing aria-kbdshorcuts [on James Nurthen - due 2015-07-30].
17:05:01 <janina> mc: We have branch from Rich's proposal. OK to merge?
17:05:08 <janina> [no objection]
17:05:16 <MichaelC> aria-kbdshortcuts
17:06:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
17:07:07 <janina> close issue-711
17:07:08 <trackbot> Closed issue-711.
17:07:31 <clown> issue-711
17:07:31 <trackbot> issue-711 -- Expose Keyboard Shortcut help information to ATs -- closed
17:07:31 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/711
17:08:58 <janina> rs: Lot got done while I was away! Thanks!
17:09:11 <janina> topic: Open Actions
17:09:44 <janina> open action-1380
17:09:50 <janina> action-1380?
17:09:50 <trackbot> action-1380 -- Joanmarie Diggs to #presentation should mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2015-06-25 -- OPEN
17:09:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
17:10:06 <clown> action-1379?
17:10:06 <trackbot> action-1379 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to TAC should cover rendered descendants from external sources: svg, iframe, etc. (Compose text and get final review form ARIA subteam) -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
17:10:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1379
17:10:48 <janina> fe: Existing APG already discusses this
17:10:51 <janina> js: Link?
17:11:07 <janina> action-1379?
17:11:07 <trackbot> action-1379 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to TAC should cover rendered descendants from external sources: svg, iframe, etc. (Compose text and get final review form ARIA subteam) -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
17:11:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1379
17:11:10 <fesch> http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/
17:12:28 <janina> js: Note from jcraig on what should happen in various scenarios
17:12:33 <MichielBijl> MichielBijl has joined #aria
17:14:06 <MichielBijl> I'm now on mic :)
17:17:05 <janina> action-1405?
17:17:05 <trackbot> action-1405 -- Joanmarie Diggs to For issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global attrs to apply to host language elements having the correct aria semantics -- due 2015-06-25 -- OPEN
17:17:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1405
17:17:43 <joanie> "However, authors must only use non-global states and properties on elements with a role supporting the state or property; either defined as an explicit WAI-ARIA role, **or as defined by the host language semantic matching an appropriate WAI-ARIA role**."
17:17:47 <joanie> (emphasis added)
17:18:24 <janina> rs: So, that's it!
17:18:28 <janina> close action-1405
17:18:28 <trackbot> Closed action-1405.
17:19:05 <janina> action-1454?
17:19:05 <trackbot> action-1454 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add aria-hasannotation attribute with values: comment, footnote, endnote, reference, insertion, deletion, modification, true, false, more where aria-hasannotation has only one value at a time -- due 2014-06-23 -- OPEN
17:19:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1454
17:19:15 <janina> rs: Thought we put this to 2.0
17:19:20 <clown> issue-655
17:19:20 <trackbot> issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open
17:19:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:22:53 <janina> Also moving action-1455 for 2.0
17:23:59 <janina> Michael will file bug with sysreq
17:24:50 <janina> action-1466?
17:24:50 <trackbot> action-1466 -- James Craig to "used in or inherits into roles" should include required states and properties -- due 2014-06-30 -- OPEN
17:24:50 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1466
17:26:17 <janina> jd: Believe I have handled this with Shane, but will double-check
17:26:28 <janina> rs: New due
17:26:32 <janina> jd: Looking now
17:26:48 <janina> rs: If it's fixed, go ahead and close. We don't need to circle back
17:27:00 <janina> action-1467?
17:27:00 <trackbot> action-1467 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose edit to issue-522: clarify presentation mentions in TAC -- due 2014-07-07 -- OPEN
17:27:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1467
17:27:20 <janina> issue-522?
17:27:20 <trackbot> issue-522 -- Name Computation 2A - bullet 3 confusion -- open
17:27:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/522
17:28:01 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#step2D
17:30:46 <janina> mc: Same bug !
17:31:33 <janina> action-1466?
17:31:33 <trackbot> action-1466 -- James Craig to "used in or inherits into roles" should include required states and properties -- due 2014-07-31 -- OPEN
17:31:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1466
17:31:47 <janina> jd: This is mine
17:31:51 <janina> action-1475?
17:31:51 <trackbot> action-1475 -- Cynthia Shelly to Work with michael c. and joseph s. to create up to 4 accessibility diagrams showing the application (before and after) of applying role=“presentation”/none -- due 2015-09-25 -- OPEN
17:31:51 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1475
17:32:15 <janina> action-1488?
17:32:15 <trackbot> action-1488 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose spec text for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 -- due 2014-10-29 -- OPEN
17:32:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1488
17:32:29 <janina> jd: Will do for next week
17:32:41 <janina> jd: Need to refresh group thinking on this ...
17:35:15 <janina> action-1489?
17:35:15 <trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
17:35:15 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1489
17:35:23 <janina> s: Oops, august!
17:35:54 <janina> action-1498?
17:35:54 <trackbot> action-1498 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft "term" role (related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0 "definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- due 2014-09-30 -- OPEN
17:35:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1498
17:36:02 <MichielBijl> Yes
17:36:09 <janina> jd: This from before we started using branches ...
17:36:17 <janina> jd: Will do for next week
17:37:21 <janina> rs: Next an APG -- should not be here ...
17:38:37 <janina> action-1528?
17:38:37 <trackbot> action-1528 -- Alexander Surkov to Bolter to investigate the proper ia2 mappings for aria-current -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN
17:38:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1528
17:38:41 <janina> rs: Is this done?
17:38:48 <janina> js: Yes
17:38:59 <janina> js: Oops, no. Not done. Has text needing review
17:39:11 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaCurrent
17:40:52 <MichielBijl> It's connected to ISSUE-435
17:40:58 <janina> action-1537?
17:40:58 <trackbot> action-1537 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Research pulling together a group to address some aapi extensions e.g., getcomputedrole -- due 2014-12-01 -- OPEN
17:40:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1537
17:41:40 <janina> rs: What happened here?
17:42:06 <janina> rs: We want computed role and computed name in browser, and asked Web Apps for it
17:42:49 <janina> rs: Will follow up with Web Apps
17:44:34 <janina> action-1560?
17:44:34 <trackbot> action-1560 -- Stefan Schnabel to Email list with discussion of on/off value labels (maybe valuetext?) and extending value descriptions to other controls -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:44:34 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1560
17:46:29 <janina> action-1567?
17:46:29 <trackbot> action-1567 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Fix inconsistencies in linking to glossary items -- due 2015-03-19 -- OPEN
17:46:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1567
17:48:40 <janina> close action-1568
17:48:40 <trackbot> Closed action-1568.
17:49:07 <janina> action-1578?
17:49:07 <trackbot> action-1578 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-700 in aria task force meeting. -- due 2015-02-17 -- OPEN
17:49:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578
17:49:12 <janina> issue-700?
17:49:12 <trackbot> issue-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open
17:49:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
17:49:59 <janina> js: Discussed in api mtgs
17:50:09 <janina> js: If clickable, should be mapped
17:50:34 <joanie> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239
17:50:37 <janina> js: I filed Safari bug where were interactive
17:50:45 <janina> rs: So not this mtg
17:51:50 <janina> js: Jcraig objected to row group ever being mapped
17:52:12 <janina> js: i.e. only occurs in a presentation scenario
17:52:20 <janina> js: Not sure that's the issue
17:52:43 <janina> js: Can see where would never occur in presentation context
17:53:04 <janina> js: Don't believe spec needs to change over this ...
17:54:33 <janina> rs: I don't agree with the note ... ...
17:54:51 <janina> rs: You still get inheritance, even without row group
17:55:05 <janina> js: yes
17:55:27 <clown> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239
17:56:12 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#presentation
17:57:51 <janina> action-1581?
17:57:51 <trackbot> action-1581 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Create a proposal for a panel role and modify the group role to be more generic -- due 2015-03-26 -- OPEN
17:57:51 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1581
17:58:02 <janina> rs: ARe we having panel role?
17:58:12 <janina> jd: Believe it's messy and we shouldn't
17:58:32 <janina> jd: Don't believe we can make our current group more eneric
17:58:50 <janina> s/eneric/generic/
17:59:21 <janina> rs: Any objection to closing?
17:59:27 <janina> [crickets]
18:00:53 <janina> RESOLUTION: Group role is sufficiently generic and has been implemented as such across platforms, so no panel role is needed
18:01:25 <janina> close action-1581
18:01:26 <trackbot> Closed action-1581.
18:06:11 <janina> zakim, bye
18:06:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:06:17 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/23-aria-minutes.html janina
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