13:08:03 RRSAgent has joined #svg-a11y 13:08:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/17-svg-a11y-irc 13:08:09 Zakim, start telcon 13:08:09 I don't understand 'start telcon', shepazu 13:08:10 AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y 13:08:24 RRSAgent, start telcon 13:08:24 I'm logging. I don't understand 'start telcon', shepazu. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:08:52 Zakim, help 13:08:52 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. 13:08:54 Some of the commands I know are: 13:08:54 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx 13:08:54 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted 13:08:54 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx 13:08:55 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx 13:08:55 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group 13:08:55 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx 13:08:55 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone 13:08:56 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted 13:08:56 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) 13:08:56 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# 13:08:56 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present 13:08:56 list conferences - reports the active conferences 13:08:57 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx 13:08:57 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel 13:08:57 I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $ 13:09:43 Zakim, this is SVG-A11y 13:09:43 sorry, shepazu, I do not see a conference named 'SVG-A11y' in progress or scheduled at this time 13:10:02 Zakim, this is ARIA 13:10:02 sorry, shepazu, I do not see a conference named 'ARIA' in progress or scheduled at this time 13:10:15 Zakim, begin telcon 13:10:15 I don't understand 'begin telcon', shepazu 13:13:08 TOPIC: Chart Taxonomy 13:13:12 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Chart_Taxonomy#Known_Bug_in_Navigation 13:13:17 trackbot, start telcon 13:13:19 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:13:21 Zakim, this will be WAI_PF 13:13:21 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 13:13:22 Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 13:13:22 Date: 17 July 2015 13:17:46 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Chart_Taxonomy#Known_Bug_in_Navigation 13:20:11 Fred: I put together a sample chart taxonomy, extending the basic graphics-document and graphics-object for the ARIA roles for graphics. 13:20:32 Doug: Is this just based on your taxonomy from previously, or did you try to integrate mine? 13:21:15 Fred: No, I haven't integrated that yet. 13:22:26 Fred: In addition to roles, I'm using the aria-type attribute to clarify between different features when there are multiple objects of the same role, such as x or y axes. 13:23:05 AmeliaBR: For axes, we could use the specific ARIA role for defining horizontal vs vertical direction. 13:24:05 Fred: Maybe, but it isn't just for axes. E.g., on the box and whisker plot, there are multiple types of data for each object: median, quartiles, ranges, etc. 13:25:27 Fred: I have a definition there. Basically, it depends on the role which type of information is used in aria-type. 13:27:57 Doug: Is there any precedent in ARIA for an open-ended string to be used to distinguish between different objects? Basically, you have no restrictions on the values for aria-type. Are there any other ARIA attributes that take string instead of enumeration? 13:28:13 Fred: Well, aria-label, I guess. 13:29:30 Doug: I understand why you did it this way, but you've now got an attribute that is supposed to be context-dependent and flexible but also machine readable for distinguishing functionality. 13:30:30 s/I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot/Scribenick: AmeliaBR/ 13:31:35 Fred: Well, I have labels as way, but I expect the browser would also have a way to localize the role and type and add that to the name. 13:33:20 Doug: That's not what I'm getting at. 13:34:15 AmeliaBR: I agree that it is a problem to use one attribute for many things. We want to keep things simple, but we would need to enumerate all the possible values at some point. 13:34:31 Fred: I'm not sure that's possible. 13:35:10 AmeliaBR: If you want flexible distinctions, you could use aria-roledescription, which accepts freeform strings. But don't expect AT to do anything with that except repeat it to the user. 13:36:41 Doug: This is similar to my point. aria-type could mean different things in different contexts, which make it different to implement. It varies depending on the role. So aria-type only has meaning when it is paired with something else. 13:36:57 Fred: Paired with the role. So maybe call it aria-roletype. 13:39:17 Doug: It introduces a little ambiguity with regards to what values it can take. I understand you want to be flexible for any data facets, many different axes or legends for different types of charts. 13:40:19 Fred: And you can have multiple chart panels that are themselves nested in other axes, e.g. a SPLOM a giant matrix of charts. 13:42:29 Doug: There's any number of type of axes you can have, so I'm sensitive to that. But there are two things to consider: the conventions around what type of axes are used for a given chart and what they are called, but also the machine has to distinguish between them. 13:42:53 jasonjgw has joined #svg-a11y 13:43:26 Doug: Honestly, I was always uncomfortable with this part. There need to be defined semantics, but it also needs to be extensible. 13:44:13 Fred: Where there are conventions, I have tried to give things distinct roles, such as graphics-charttitle. 13:44:46 Doug: I'm mostly talking about aria-type. I'm uncomfortable with it being able to be anything. That creates incredibly loose semantics. 13:45:15 ... It's not machine-readable. 13:45:36 Fred: If you expect the machine to do anything other than announce it. 13:46:30 ... but it is really just for announcing and navigation. You can't make the machine do everything, you can't capture all the possibilities. 13:46:55 AmeliaBR: We need to distinguish which parts of information need to be machine-readable and which need to be open-ended. 13:48:28 https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Chart_Taxonomy#Navigation_Between_Features 13:48:43 Doug: I'm looking at this as someone who has implemented a screen reader, albeit a very simple one, for charts. Axis type means something to my screen reader as a grouping mechanism. I also called the axes x and y, but you could also say, e.g., dependent and independent. 13:49:25 Fred: But the screen reader shouldn't have to figure that out. The aria-type just get appended on the end. 13:49:35 Doug: Would this be translated? 13:50:07 Fred: No, the role axis would be, but the type would not. It would be given in the language of the document. 13:50:54 ... The author should know what's meaningful in that domain, more than an AT developer. 13:52:42 ... It guides the chart navigation to split the feature when the type is different. If elements have the same parent and same role & type, they are treated the same. If different, they are treated differently. 13:55:16 Doug: For one thing, I'm not comfortable with a generic name like aria-type, which could conflict with other taxonomies, and that it can be used for so many different things. It is being used for data-related things but also for other things like annotations. 13:57:17 Doug: I would like to separate out the data facets (axes, legends, etc.) from other things in the chart. I don't what to use the same property for everything. 13:59:15 ... My screenreader would deal with those completely differently. For data facets, it doesn't just announce them when you get to the axis, but it uses them as a set of values as the basis for summary statistics for the whole chart, regardless of where in the graphic they are displayed. 14:00:02 Fred: I think the problem there would be if you've got mutliple-panel charts, where axes can be different for each nested chart. 14:00:32 Doug: I kind of treat that as a different feature of the chart from axes. 14:01:30 ... I would call each one a separate chart. But I understand why you're not, since they may share common features. 14:02:47  14:02:47  14:04:24 Fred: For panels, they share the same data set, they are just different columns of the graphic. But in other examples, you can have paired charts which are separate data sets but share axes, e.g., the box and whisker charts on the wiki page. 14:08:12 https://www.google.com/search?q=napoleon%27s+march+to+moscow+minard&biw=1122&bih=657&tbm=isch&imgil=9_ZYZP9kn3XOgM%253A%253B--a2gg5AGLlanM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.masswerk.at%25252Fminard%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=9_ZYZP9kn3XOgM%253A%252C--a2gg5AGLlanM%252C_&usg=__AUtBR_65T5wBRYE2Fp_hJmGbDUU%3D&ved=0CDMQyjdqFQoTCPbMtrWr4sYCFcGMDQoddsILfQ&ei=NwypVbbVLcGZNvaEr-gH#imgrc=9_ZYZP9kn3XOgM%3A&usg 14:08:14 =__AUtBR_65T5wBRYE2Fp_hJmGbDUU%3D 14:08:31 http://www.masswerk.at/minard/ 14:09:54 Doug: I think it is usually easier to just create two separate charts, and just not show the axis on one of the charts than to try to explain to the machine that the axis should be used from a separate chart. 14:11:21 Amelia: That is asking the author to insert extra markup that they wouldn't otherwise do. And yes, if you're using software it wouldn't necessarily be difficult, but it is still asking authors to do something extra, keep two things coordinated, just to make things easier for a computer. 14:12:34 Fred: I've pasted the link to the Minard chart of Napoleon's retreat. This is one of the most famous data visualizations. The axes are re-used and you can't divide it into distinct sub-charts. 14:13:30 Doug: This is a particularly complex example. How you recreate it, and how you make all the data facets accessible, is going to be much more difficult than simply defining extra axes and then making them invisible. 14:13:40 ... I'm not sure why you're bringing it up. 14:14:08 Fred: Simply because I think you're trying to over simplify data visualization, and say that everyone has to make charts a certain way. 14:14:41 Doug: That's basically what we're trying to do in this working group. Create simple rules for how people can make simple charts. 14:15:03 Fred: I don't think you can ask people to put extra elements in the chart that they don't want to draw. 14:15:38 Doug: But we're asking them to add in values, which might not ever be printed on the chart. 14:19:35 Amelia: Doug, why don't you try to come up with some alternative proposals for things you have a concern with? And I'll do the same. 14:20:24 present+ AmeliaBR 14:20:28 present+ shepazu 14:20:33 present+ fesch 14:20:51 present+ jasonjgw 14:23:41 trackbot, end telcon 14:23:41 Zakim, list attendees 14:23:41 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 14:23:49 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 14:23:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/17-svg-a11y-minutes.html trackbot 14:23:50 RRSAgent, bye 14:23:50 I see no action items