16:32:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:32:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-irc
16:32:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:32:55 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:32:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:32:57 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:32:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:32:58 <trackbot> Date: 16 July 2015
16:33:01 <MichaelC> chair: MichaelC
16:33:06 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:33:11 <MichaelC> present+ Janina, MichaelC, Michiel
16:33:16 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:33:19 <MichaelC> agenda+ Heads-up items
16:33:26 <MichaelC> agenda+ Issue 651 and Action 1680 aria-errormessage property
16:33:47 <MichaelC> Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut
16:33:47 <trackbot> Error finding '1642'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
16:33:54 <MichaelC> agenda+ Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut
16:34:07 <MichaelC> agenda+ Review Open Action Items and Issues
16:34:25 <MichaelC> regrets: Rich, Léonie, Jon
16:34:57 <MichaelC> regrets+ Joanie
16:35:19 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
16:35:49 <janina> scribe: janina
16:36:10 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0055.html
16:36:10 <janina> mc: We'll take up what we can, we're short on participation
16:36:14 <janina> zakim, next item
16:36:14 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Heads-up items" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:36:47 <janina> mc: Charter reviews are out. Please ask your AC reps to complete the ballot!
16:36:56 <janina> fe: Willco
16:37:00 <janina> mc: Due 30 July
16:37:45 <janina> mc: Updated WDs published past Tuesday, 13 July
16:37:47 <clown> http://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/4819
16:38:09 <janina> mc: Taxonomy diagram not yet updated, regretably.
16:38:20 <janina> mc: Need to catch up on it
16:38:51 <janina> mc: Next hearbeats will probably come from the new ARIA-WG, not from PF as heretofore
16:40:00 <janina> topic: Introductions of new participant, Michel -- from Netherlands, is a developer. Wants to get more involved with spec development, code examples, etc.
16:40:24 <janina> [going around the table with introductions ...]
16:42:42 <janina> zakim, next item
16:42:42 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Issue 651 and Action 1680 aria-errormessage property" taken up [from MichaelC]
16:43:48 <MichaelC> issue-651?
16:43:48 <trackbot> issue-651 -- Allow aria-invalid to specify more types of errors including custom errors -- raised
16:43:48 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/651
16:43:51 <MichaelC> action-1680?
16:43:51 <trackbot> action-1680 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
16:43:51 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1680
16:44:08 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/aria-errormessage/aria/aria.html#aria-errormessage
16:44:21 <janina> js: Did first pass at spec text for error-message
16:44:33 <janina> js: based on Rich's email draft
16:44:47 <janina> js: Annoted with questions--needs fleshing out
16:45:02 <janina> s/Annoted/Annotated/
16:45:37 <janina> jn: What happens if msg not in live region?
16:45:48 <janina> js: Live region is a requirement
16:46:02 <janina> jn: Implicit?
16:46:18 <janina> js: Rich was speculating on the exact approach, so currently in a note
16:46:29 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan
16:46:39 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:46:48 <fesch> present+ fesch
16:47:10 <janina> jn: Would think one should be able to use a pre-defined live region implicitly
16:47:18 <janina> js: Rich didn't like log
16:47:28 <janina> jn: But log doesn't have to scroll
16:47:42 <janina> jn: Don't think we should forbid
16:48:03 <janina> m: Use case?
16:48:18 <janina> jn: Not off the top of my head, but don't see why we would prohibit
16:48:26 <janina> m: Log implies it persists, no?
16:48:41 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/aria-errormessage/aria/aria.html#log
16:48:41 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:49:03 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:49:05 <janina> js: Definition says "old information may disappear"
16:49:31 <janina> jn: So, log isn't necessary a tech log, might be a chat
16:49:50 <janina> m: One definition of log is error log, so should be OK
16:50:11 <janina> mc: Sounds like a resolution emerging to not forbid, if not to actually engourage
16:50:46 <janina> js: Will update
16:51:26 <janina> m: Q about polite or assertive ...
16:51:30 <janina> js: Believe up to AT
16:51:54 <janina> jn: Believe aria-live is off should also be valid here
16:52:24 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/aria-errormessage/aria/aria.html#aria-live
16:52:45 <janina> jn: I would tend to use polite on all error msgs
16:53:04 <janina> m: Suggesting an error if email addr incomplete -- nothing right of the @
16:53:49 <janina> jn: Still want off as OK
16:53:53 <janina> js: Set up that way
16:54:36 <janina> js: Suggest these use cases / examples are for the APG
16:55:09 <janina> mc: Not sure about AT, as long as the association is available, they can be obtained
16:56:14 <janina> janina: Prefer not too chatty UI for screen reader
16:56:21 <janina> bg: Could kill other speech, too
16:57:06 <janina> mc: Noting that invalid on form controls better handled one at a time for screen readers
16:57:10 <janina> js: Notes not a "must"
16:57:17 <janina> fe: But then is there a best practice?
16:57:52 <janina> mc: Do we need to recommend one way or the other for live region
16:58:07 <janina> js: Think rich is thinking about filling out a form, tabbing off, and get the info right away
16:58:26 <janina> mc: Often this happens when hitting submit
16:58:45 <janina> mc: All errors become evident at the point--painted red
16:58:59 <janina> m: Depends on validation implementation
16:59:14 <janina> mc: Don't think we would prescribe where validation occurs
16:59:23 <janina> m: Agree
16:59:51 <janina> mc: Is there objection to this approach?
17:00:05 <janina> mc: Seems we're accepting with amendments. Someone needs to finish cleanup
17:00:30 <janina> js: Willing to do amendments, Rich needs to check
17:00:40 <janina> mc: Do we need an issue/action for APG?
17:01:06 <janina> js: Also mappings
17:01:19 <MichaelC> action: clown to drive mapping of aria-errormessage to AAPIs
17:01:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1686 - Drive mapping of aria-errormessage to aapis [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-07-23].
17:01:33 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1686 with issue-651
17:01:33 <trackbot> action-1686 (Drive mapping of aria-errormessage to aapis) associated with issue-651.
17:02:03 <MichaelC> action: nurthen to get Authoring Practices guidance on use of aria-errormessage, including use cases for live region or not
17:02:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1687 - Get authoring practices guidance on use of aria-errormessage, including use cases for live region or not [on James Nurthen - due 2015-07-23].
17:02:11 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1687 with issue-651
17:02:11 <trackbot> action-1687 (Get authoring practices guidance on use of aria-errormessage, including use cases for live region or not) associated with issue-651.
17:03:02 <janina> zakim, next item
17:03:02 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:03:33 <janina> js: Have one q
17:03:54 <MichaelC> issue-1642?
17:03:54 <trackbot> Sorry, but issue-1642 does not exist.
17:03:55 <clown> issue-633?
17:03:55 <trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain interactive typed items -- open
17:03:55 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
17:04:00 <janina> js: On api call we thought interactive was dead -- no longer supported
17:04:09 <MichaelC> issue-642?
17:04:09 <trackbot> issue-642 -- alt text computation should distinguish between nameFrom contents during root node calculation versus recursive calculation. -- open
17:04:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/642
17:04:21 <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27866
17:04:22 <MichaelC> action-1642?
17:04:22 <trackbot> action-1642 -- Michael Cooper to Create aria-keyshortcut proposal to group -- due 2015-06-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:04:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1642
17:05:02 <janina> js: So, first, is interactive still a go?
17:06:19 <janina> jn: Fully support something like this
17:06:36 <janina> jn: Something that can tell an sr that there's something interactive here
17:07:25 <janina> mc: Seems we dropped this in favor of revisiting table rows
17:07:30 <janina> fe: that was grid vs table
17:07:51 <janina> mc: Not finding that we took this up for non tabular contexts
17:08:05 <janina> jn: Originally proposed outsie of tabular, we need to get back to that context
17:08:37 <janina> jn: interactive=tru should be only specifiable value
17:08:46 <janina> js: On role checkbox?
17:08:58 <janina> js: wouldn't that be implied?
17:09:17 <janina> bg: Supposed to handle composite widgets
17:09:27 <janina> bg: e.g. date picker
17:10:02 <janina> fe: But menus are often just js, and wouldn't be needed
17:10:29 <janina> js: So needed for non widget that are interactive
17:10:44 <janina> jn: Don't care for the application hack, though this is only slightly better
17:11:31 <janina> bg: concerned this could be put on all kinds of wierd sutff, e.g. accordians
17:11:47 <janina> jn: agree there's misuse opportunity, but also occasions where it's necessary
17:12:06 <janina> jn: Interactive charts
17:12:25 <janina> jn: avoids an extra layer of nesting
17:12:36 <janina> fe: but really function as a substitute for application role
17:12:37 <janina> jn: yes
17:13:00 <janina> jn: Recall conversation wanted to limit to certain roles
17:13:23 <janina> jn: Some people wanted to limit to a small set of roles
17:13:29 <janina> jn: Would prefer not so limited
17:13:38 <janina> bg: Still concerned about misuse
17:14:17 <janina> fe: Could appear constraining -- dpub; graphics, not just html
17:14:39 <janina> mc: Seems we've gone away from keyboard shortcuts ...
17:14:48 <janina> mc: James, can you write up a proposal?
17:15:02 <janina> jn: Yes, but on vacation for 4 of the next 5 weeks
17:15:12 <janina> jn: No time until mid september
17:16:00 <janina> [timeline and scoping discussion ...]
17:16:19 <janina> mc: Seems best for the proposal to come from Nurthen
17:16:40 <MichaelC> action: nurthen to draft proposal for aria-interactive - due 1 Oct
17:16:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1688 - Draft proposal for aria-interactive [on James Nurthen - due 2015-10-01].
17:16:58 <MichaelC> trackbot, associate action-1688 with issue-633
17:16:58 <trackbot> action-1688 (Draft proposal for aria-interactive) associated with issue-633.
17:18:11 <janina> topic: keyboard shortcuts
17:18:17 <MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/Keyboard_Shortcuts/aria/aria.html#aria-kbdshortcuts
17:19:13 <janina> mc: Believe Rich's proposal intended to meet requirements of the cited emails, but may need more
17:21:41 <janina> mc: Notes that its listed in HTML TF wish list
17:22:24 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist#Keyboard_Interaction
17:22:47 <janina> follw links for TAB index and for AccessKey from this link
17:22:48 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Keyboard
17:23:51 <janina> janina: Should we punt to WAPA?
17:23:54 <janina> mc: not sure
17:24:09 <janina> mc: Was a wider concern for IndieUI, where it was more than keyboard
17:24:23 <janina> fe: Isn't the purpose just notify aT
17:24:38 <janina> js: Dominic just to document
17:24:56 <janina> js: So, tell the user, doesn't change the user agent's behavior, just exposes shortcuts to user
17:26:35 <janina> m: Putting in head makes sense, but should include what it does, not just how activated list
17:26:47 <janina> fe: Dowe have an example how this could be used?
17:27:11 <janina> jn: If I have "save" only in a menu, not visible on screen, but I know I can do Ctrl-S
17:27:22 <janina> mc: Rich's would not address ??
17:27:26 <janina> jn: It woudln't
17:29:00 <Michiel> So, something like: <meta name="shortcut" key="ctrl+s" description="Save state">?
17:29:20 <janina> mc: Not fully absorbed, but think would get significant opposition
17:29:45 <janina> mc: Some say "wrong approach" and some saying "good start, but" and yet others saying "out of scope, another WG is taking it up"
17:29:58 <janina> mc: If we don't accept the proposal, what happens?
17:30:24 <janina> js: Authors will have to provide their own documentation for their key strokes
17:31:21 <janina> jn: wonders about multiple key strokes, but without modifiers
17:31:24 <janina> mc: depends on dom
17:32:26 <jamesn> Twitter style shortcuts..... i.e. g then h for go home
17:34:24 <janina> [discussion whether this moves us forward, or makes things worse]
17:34:38 <janina> mc: Let's shop to HTML-A11Y TF
17:35:26 <janina> zakim, next item
17:35:26 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Review Open Action Items and Issues" taken up [from MichaelC]
17:35:35 <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
17:35:57 <janina> mc: Looking at items for persons present on the call
17:36:06 <janina> mc: Any news about Matt
17:36:14 <janina> jn: Possibly next week, definitely week following
17:36:44 <janina> action-1151?
17:36:44 <trackbot> action-1151 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation -- due 2015-04-16 -- OPEN
17:36:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1151
17:37:13 <janina> js: Not sure when I can do this
17:37:20 <janina> js: Need software to draw it
17:37:28 <janina> mc: Go by hand, and send to me
17:37:47 <janina> fe: I can also take up if you start by hand
17:37:53 <MichaelC> action-1151 due 1 Oct
17:37:53 <trackbot> Set action-1151 Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation due date to 2015-10-01.
17:38:18 <MichaelC> action-1151: can draw by hand and send to MC for FE to electronicize
17:38:18 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1151 Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation.
17:38:44 <MichaelC> action-1151: or MB
17:38:44 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1151 Create a flowchart or process diagram of the ARIA accessible name computation.
17:39:06 <MichaelC> action-1439?
17:39:06 <trackbot> action-1439 -- Michael Cooper to Set up redirects from CVS PF editors' drafts -- due 2014-05-14 -- OPEN
17:39:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1439
17:39:07 <janina> action-1436?
17:39:07 <trackbot> action-1436 -- Shane McCarron to Review css custom properties for cascading variables module level 1 http://www.w3.org/tr/2014/wd-css-variables-1-20140506/ -- due 2014-05-21 -- CLOSED
17:39:07 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1436
17:39:33 <janina> mc: Didn't want to overdue, believe we should close
17:39:48 <MichaelC> close action-1439
17:39:48 <trackbot> Closed action-1439.
17:40:05 <janina> action-1489?
17:40:05 <trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) -- due 2015-05-01 -- OPEN
17:40:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1489
17:40:28 <MichaelC> action-1489 due 1 month
17:40:28 <trackbot> Set action-1489 Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and aria-labelledby) due date to 2015-08-16.
17:40:37 <janina> action-1513?
17:40:37 <trackbot> action-1513 -- Michael Cooper to Set up ARIA 1.1 Requirements draft -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
17:40:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1513
17:40:51 <MichaelC> action-1513 due 1 month
17:40:51 <trackbot> Set action-1513 Set up ARIA 1.1 Requirements draft due date to 2015-08-16.
17:42:14 <janina> action-1617?
17:42:14 <trackbot> action-1617 -- Michael Cooper to Set up shared references for aria repository -- due 2015-04-22 -- OPEN
17:42:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1617
17:42:29 <MichaelC> close action-1617
17:42:29 <trackbot> Closed action-1617.
17:42:37 <janina> action-1624?
17:42:37 <trackbot> action-1624 -- Michael Cooper to Work with shane to develop publication strategy and solution that would exclude abstract roles for authors -- due 2015-04-30 -- OPEN
17:42:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1624
17:42:57 <janina> mc: Believe we have progressm but incomplete
17:43:03 <MichaelC> action-1624 due 1 month
17:43:03 <trackbot> Set action-1624 Work with shane to develop publication strategy and solution that would exclude abstract roles for authors due date to 2015-08-16.
17:43:10 <janina> action-1632?
17:43:10 <trackbot> action-1632 -- Michael Cooper to Start documentation on how we do aria spec and modules -- due 2015-05-13 -- OPEN
17:43:10 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1632
17:43:32 <janina> mc: Should come with new WG home pages
17:43:35 <janina> action-1642?
17:43:35 <trackbot> action-1642 -- Michael Cooper to Create aria-keyshortcut proposal to group -- due 2015-06-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
17:43:35 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1642
17:43:48 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
17:43:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-minutes.html janina
17:44:00 <MichaelC> close action-1642
17:44:00 <trackbot> Closed action-1642.
17:44:12 <janina> action-1672?
17:44:12 <trackbot> action-1672 -- Michael Cooper to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-07-09 -- OPEN
17:44:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672
17:44:22 <MichaelC> action-1672 due 1 month
17:44:22 <trackbot> Set action-1672 Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated due date to 2015-08-16.
17:44:30 <janina> action-1679?
17:44:30 <trackbot> action-1679 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Start exploring content for a potential whitepaper on the difference between readonly and disabled -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
17:44:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1679
17:45:18 <janina> action-1680?
17:45:18 <trackbot> action-1680 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Draft aria-errormessage property for review - may be at risk in aria 1.1 though -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
17:45:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1680
17:45:38 <janina> action-1467?
17:45:38 <trackbot> action-1467 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose edit to issue-522: clarify presentation mentions in TAC -- due 2014-07-07 -- OPEN
17:45:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1467
17:45:53 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1467
17:45:57 <janina> issue-522?
17:45:57 <trackbot> issue-522 -- Name Computation 2A - bullet 3 confusion -- open
17:45:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/522
17:46:03 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html#step2D
17:46:26 <janina> js: Put text from issue into in accessible name computation, and noted as such
17:46:35 <janina> js: Waiting for review on the rewording
17:48:08 <janina> mc: Any opinions?
17:51:20 <janina> mc: Edits seems OK. We accept
17:52:59 <MichaelC> issue-695: ¨neither/nor¨ vs ¨either/or¨
17:52:59 <trackbot> Notes added to issue-695 Clean up nits in the ARIA specification.
18:04:38 <clown> clown has joined #aria
19:51:23 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
19:51:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
19:51:43 <MichaelC> present+ JamesN
19:51:52 <MichaelC> scribeOptions: -final
19:52:43 <MichaelC> s/Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut/aria-interactive/
19:52:55 <MichaelC> s/keyboard shortcuts/Action 1642 aria-keyshortcut/
19:53:00 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
19:53:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/16-aria-minutes.html MichaelC