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08:28:16 <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
08:28:28 <chaals> Topic: agenda bashing
08:28:57 <chaals> Present: Chaals, Joanie, SteveF, Léonie
08:29:26 <chaals> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Meetings/HAT2015-zaragoza
08:33:36 <chaals> agenda+ panels+groups
08:33:43 <chaals> agenda+ aria-removable?
08:34:00 <chaals> Topic: read-only
08:34:11 <chaals> i.Topic/scribe: chaals/
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08:35:20 <chaals> JD: We didn't have aria-readonly for e.g. checkboxes, radio, etc. But you have those things, so we should.
08:35:37 <chaals> … made the change. But what about spin buttons, sliders, etc?
08:36:03 <chaals> … Bringing back the panel thing, I came up with use cases…
08:36:52 <chaals> -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/zaragoza/aria/aria.html#aria-readonly what Joanie did
08:38:11 <chaals> … I drafted some changes.
08:38:17 <SteveF_> readonly HTML5 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/forms.html#attr-input-readonly
08:38:34 <chaals> [use cases that make sense for this]
08:39:42 <chaals> SF: In HTML5 the readonly is limited to stopping editing - input, textarea. contenteditable?
08:40:18 <chaals> … we could look at broadening HTML readonly which I think is harder. Or unlink aria's 1:1 mapping
08:40:30 <chaals> JD: Would lean toward the latter
08:41:06 <chaals> … coupling only makes sense with the restriction on inputs - HTML5 doesn't apply to other stuff.
08:42:08 <joanie> q+ to not forget the checkbox example
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08:44:18 <chaals> CMN: The use cases don't seem to me different for people using ARIA and the rest of the world [note the pointer to discussing ARIA itself later]. So maybe HTML is the right place to change - it doesn't even handle contenteditable, does it?
08:45:02 <chaals> JD: ARIA already handles support for checkboxes in the current drafts. So we already started to diverge…
08:46:01 <chaals> SF: What would it mean to have read-only for users in general. Nearest thing I can think of was when we had the inert attribute - you couldn't copy content. is that what we want?
08:46:10 <chaals> JD: If you do, use aria-disabled.
08:48:16 <chaals> SF: What would happen if this were HTML?
08:48:37 <chaals> CMN: You would have things that are generally interactive, and take away their interactivity
08:48:51 <chaals> SF: You can use disabled for that.
08:49:06 <chaals> LJW: What about custom elements? Contenteditable?
08:49:55 <chaals> JD: HTML and ARIA are aligned so far… except HTML claims it would not make sense for checkboxes or buttons to be read-only
08:50:05 <chaals> … There are examples of people doing this, though.
08:50:31 <chaals> SF: Think I have some tests with read-only on other stuff…
08:50:45 <chaals> CMN: Pretty sure there are clear use cases for extending readonly
08:51:12 <chaals> … so we probably should file a bug on HTML
08:52:02 <chaals> JD: For aria-roles mapping to elements, keeping the things aligned makes sense. But you can turn a div into a file browser. So ARIA should extend the roles to which the property applies.
08:52:25 <chaals> … see EDitor's note in my draft:
08:52:27 <chaals> [[[
08:53:36 <chaals> s/[[[//
08:54:34 <SteveF> notes that current html def of readonly seems to limiting as it does not allow input type number/date etc
08:55:43 <chaals> LJW: What difference does it have if you can't edit or if interactivity is irrelevant?
08:57:12 <chaals> JD: For a normal input thing, the default value is false - you can change the value. Undefined means "there is no meaning for readonly". The use cases:
08:57:49 <chaals> … 1. all input fields should be able to be readonly - e.g. checkboxes. Make sense?
08:57:53 <chaals> LJW: No
08:58:05 <chaals> JD: What if you have a checkbox?
08:58:15 <chaals> LJW: Make disabled mean focusable, nothing to read
08:58:24 <chaals> JD/SF: But there is state to read…
08:58:48 <chaals> LJW: readonly has been for text content. Don't think reading a checkbox is applicable.
09:02:28 <chaals> CMN: See use cases - e.g. a system setting that is a checkbox, but can't be changed until you do something else. You want to know that this is *potentially* changeable, but not right now.
09:02:40 <chaals> LJW: Why do we need to let the user tab to it if they cannot read it?
09:02:49 <chaals> JD: The ability to identify the value.
09:02:56 <chaals> LJW: use disabled…
09:03:16 <chaals> [discussion of whether you can find it…]
09:05:59 <chaals> CMN: You should be able to use a normal navigation paradigm to find things that are at least sometimes interactive and have state you want to know, but you need to understand that you can't interact with it right now.
09:06:17 <chaals> LJW: If disabled meant that, it would do this and be an improvement...
09:06:22 <chaals> CMN: Could be…
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09:07:03 <chaals> … why does disabled make things unfocausable
09:07:30 <SteveF_> realted html5 bug  Readonly attribute on input.{color|range|checkbox|radio} https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=13390
09:09:51 <chaals> … makes no sense to me that disabling the interactivity of an element changes how you can navigate to and read it.
09:12:59 <chaals> JD: What if controls are disabled because they are dependent on the value of another control - can't you skip the whole set of controls then?
09:13:31 <chaals> … Can we know that a disabled control will be populated with a valid value? Maybe doing it doesn't make sense.
09:14:14 <chaals> … If there is a checkbox I can't change, I want to read the value, know it is valid. If there isn't a valid value, until it is enabled, bad things will happen.
09:14:52 <chaals> … So think readonly and disabled are different for a reason.
09:16:26 <chaals> CMN: Seems reasonably likely that authors ahve relied on disabled not allowing focus, so changing that would mess with deployed interaction patterns in bad ways
09:18:08 <SteveF>  :read-write should always apply to input elements if @readonly doesn't apply
09:18:09 <SteveF> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15428
09:21:01 <joanie> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12267242/how-can-i-make-a-checkbox-readonly-not-disabled
09:21:11 <chaals> [looking at bug 13390]
09:21:33 <chaals> JD: People are *doing* this in the wild, despite Hixie claiming it is bad UI.
09:22:25 <SteveF> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#adef-readonly
09:25:11 <chaals> JD: from the stackoverflow approaches, you get all kinds of approaches that will confuse the heck out of users who don't know why the checkbox isn't working.
09:25:30 <chaals> CMN: Seems like there are real use cases, and that Hixie is just wrong in hi assertion that this should be banned.
09:26:02 <chaals> SF: Something disabled isn't submitted. You might want something that is going to be submitted but can't be changed
09:26:16 <chaals> CMN… yes, and you want the user to see that is the case.
09:27:59 <SteveF> custom checkbox with readonly and disabled states http://semantic-ui.com/modules/checkbox.html
09:31:13 <chaals> rrsagent, make log public
09:31:24 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:31:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
09:34:16 <chaals> CMN: Reopened 13390, but that doesn't answer the question at hand which is whether there should be an undefined state of readonly
09:34:38 <chaals> JD: adding it doesn't change what false means, we're just going to add it to things that are not actual inputs, like panels.
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09:35:04 <chaals> … which is safe, we're not going to break anything.
09:35:32 <chaals> … If we want to solve things like the file sorter case, I think we need undefined.
09:36:06 <chaals> ACTION: chaals fix bug 13390 when HTML is editable again
09:36:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-328 - Fix bug 13390 when html is editable again [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-07-15].
09:36:18 <chaals> action-328 due in 2 months
09:36:18 <trackbot> Set action-328 Fix bug 13390 when html is editable again due date to 2015-09-08.
09:38:06 <joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-readonly
09:38:13 <chaals> [CMN asks dumb questions to understand how aria-readonly works right now]
09:40:12 <chaals> JD: In aria, progress bars are said to have an implicit readonly=true, but that isn't carried through the spec.
09:52:53 <chaals> CMN: Don't see that changing the defintion of readonly=false can break anything. It would require someone having implemented a way where making a paragraph aria-readonly=false suddenyl be editable, which seems unlikely
09:54:20 <chaals> JD: There is a mess of inheritance in the spec, which makes this painful… if input inherits readonly then we inherit the ability for a single radio button to be readonly which makes no sense.
10:01:11 <SteveF> Q+
10:02:15 <chaals> CMN: What if you make input things readonly=false, other stuff is readonly=true *by default* - unless you added some interactivity to it, you can declare that they're readonly=false
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10:03:00 <chaals> JD: If you have an image, a screenreader won't bother explaining that it is readonly, because that's just excess information
10:03:27 <chaals> SF: A lot of elements in windows accessibility API does expose elements as readonly. I think that is a general thing - will have a look.
10:05:20 <chaals> CMN: maybe only a theory issue, but if you default things to readonly, and then someone makes one of them interactive, without defining that it is readonly=false, will people be set up for a surprise because it changes when they do something?
10:05:38 <chaals> … think that depends on whether you have a modal shift in interaction depending on whether something is readonly
10:09:07 <chaals> [poking into the depths of this possibility]
10:14:54 <chaals> JD: Going to make a draft that says readonly applies to more kinds of controls. Won't add undefined, nor the definition of false…
10:15:38 <chaals> [break]
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10:36:27 <chaals> Topic: aria removable?
10:37:55 <chaals> JD: I looked at the panel stuff from Léonie/Brian, and saw the "removable" thing, with an issue of what it maps to.
10:38:38 <chaals> … seems there might be a reason to have something new for things that can be deleted - the same thing happens for files in a shared storage space, for example.
10:39:01 <chaals> -> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/zaragoza/aria/aria.html#aria-removable Joanie's draft proposal
10:41:35 <chaals> JD: Does it make sense to be able to remove things using aria-removable?
10:41:42 <chaals> LJW: Think so
10:42:00 <chaals> SF: What's the difference between dismissing a dialog and indicating that a thing is removable
10:42:39 <chaals> JD: If I get a dialog I already know I can get it to go away. But if I get a site-specific notification about cookies, I want to know that they can be sent away.
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10:43:17 <chaals> … lots of things might be removable but it isn't obvious.
10:44:18 <chaals> SF: Do we need aria-removable if we have close buttons?
10:44:36 <chaals> LJW: that's like not using aria-invalid to show an error.
10:44:52 <chaals> SF: You need to provide an activatable control to get rid of things.
10:45:41 <chaals> JD: We still have cases where you can delete things in a collection…
10:45:56 <chaals> SF: what about a role of dismiss for a button?
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10:46:45 <chaals> LJW: Where does the dismiss go?
10:46:51 <chaals> SF: There is a button.
10:47:13 <chaals> JD: You have a property that says "this thing can be removed…somehow…"
10:47:32 <chaals> SF/LJW: You need an associated action, no?
10:48:21 <chaals> JD: we need to have a binding - but what do we do where there is a button?
10:48:31 <chaals> SF: Is there a difference between closing, and removing?
10:51:21 <chaals> CMN: Maybe...
10:51:31 <chaals> JD: WHy does panel have "removable"?
10:51:48 <chaals> LJW: So we can create the panel with a dismiss control.
10:52:10 <chaals> JD: SO do we want a removable?
10:52:22 <chaals> SF: Can see why it would be useful, but not sure at this stage.
10:52:32 <chaals> … can see it on a dialog…
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10:53:04 <chaals> JD: That's not a good thing to have
10:53:11 <chaals> LJW: Not sure it is a problem…
10:53:29 <chaals> SF: Think it needs more thought…
10:54:16 <chaals> JD: It seems like the answer for the panel question is removable is not mapped to aria. Let's give this more thought sometime.
10:55:11 <chaals> JD: aria-expanded is currently true/false/undefined - the last one means it can't be expanded or collapsed. So in the panel spec, map to aria-expanded
10:55:37 <chaals> LJW: no, because its an indication in panels - and there is some disagreement on that at the moment.
10:56:05 <chaals> JD: For panel, there is "expandable". Oh, so that doesn't map neatly…
10:56:21 <chaals> LJW: Yes, there is a mismatch in the semantics of how we express them.
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11:14:23 <chaals> Topic: transcripts and aria
11:14:28 <chaals> CMN: Anything to see here?
11:15:40 <chaals> -> http://w3c.github.io/html-transcript/html-transcript-src.html transcripts draft
11:16:41 <chaals> CMN: Quick overview - there is a transcript element that is meant to be a container for an actual transcript.
11:17:07 <chaals> … and then we want one way to link transcripts. RIght now we have at least 4 too many proposed in the draft.
11:17:58 <chaals> … There is a particular use case of using the transcript as a navigation device - search a point in the transcript, and the video / audio moves to that point.
11:18:09 <chaals> … How would you do this in aria?
11:18:28 <chaals> … my guess is that it looks like using aria-controls. Or?
11:19:20 <SteveF> q+
11:20:07 <chaals> SF: think the most obvious choice for the proposals is to extend track.
11:23:21 <chaals> JD: the aria-controls relationship works if you have a transcript in an element. But *how* does something control something else?
11:25:38 <chaals> CMN: Yes. Engineering the "how" question here, based on transcript use case alone is "ambitious". Probably not what we should be trying to do here.
11:26:17 <chaals> JD: What does ORCA do when it finds a transcript controlling a video, compared to some other set of things controlling them.
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11:27:14 <chaals> … knowing that something is a transcript, and having a container for that, is pretty important.
11:27:58 <SteveF_> q+
11:28:06 <chaals> CMN: At this point the proposal has an explicit transcript element. SO you know it is a transcript from that…
11:28:09 <chaals> ack st
11:28:11 <chaals> ack st
11:28:52 <chaals> SF: does a transcript have timing information or not?
11:29:02 <chaals> CMN: It may or may not, in the current proposal
11:29:40 <chaals> SF: are we asking for a browser UI to meet this use case?
11:30:03 <chaals> CMN: No, we just want to make sure it works when people implement it in JS in a webapp…
11:32:38 <chaals> CMN: the point of the discussion is to figure out if there is anything obvious where we might need to make new aria, or does it seem roughly like we can just figure out how to link the transcripts and use the web to make it accessible
11:32:54 <chaals> SF: What is the state of the argument?
11:33:06 <chaals> LJW: The argument that transcript isn't timed, which this version covers.
11:36:49 <chaals> CMN: I think there were a bunch of proposals that hand't really been fleshed out in detail. This draft tries to do that (it is better for things I like more than things I don't, I suppose), which clarifies some issues of what is required. The baseline functionality is fairly simple, so it is a question of taste to some extent, but now we have something reasonable for people to look at and figure out what might make sense to implement, or not…
11:39:13 <chaals> SF: Seems like the track option is a no-brainer…
11:39:58 <chaals> CMN: video that changes in mid-stream, e.g. because you insert advertisements, or interactive video, etc...
11:41:40 <chaals> JD: If you are adding things inside a transcript, we definitely want to know what is a transcript.
11:42:06 <chaals> … also applies to magnification.
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12:00:54 <chaals> [lunch…]
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08:39:28 <chaals> Topic: date pickers
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08:39:52 <chaals> CMN: Date pickers… argh.
08:40:31 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:40:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
08:42:18 <chaals> Topic: Making aria play with the rest of the children
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08:44:16 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:44:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
08:45:17 <SteveF_> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2015May/0038.html Making ARIA and native HTML play better together
08:46:50 <LJWatson> scribenick LJWatson
08:48:03 <LJWatson> CMN: ARIA is not useful to most people. It was developed to be put everywhere, but developers have to provide all the interactions themselves - that has not been a success.
08:48:49 <LJWatson> ... Can we fix that?
08:49:09 <LJWatson> ... In Steve's email there are three suggestions.
08:50:25 <LJWatson> 1. When a role is used that matches the default implicit semantics of
08:50:27 <LJWatson> labelable HTML elements [1] use of the label element will result in the
08:50:28 <LJWatson> same behaviour as the native element and a <label>.
08:50:40 <LJWatson> 2. roles that match the default implicit semantics of interactive elements
08:50:42 <LJWatson> are focusable (without need to explicitly set tabindex)
08:50:54 <LJWatson> 3. roles that match the default implicit semantics of interactive elements
08:50:56 <LJWatson> [2] inherit the interaction behaviour of the native elements
08:51:06 <LJWatson> SF: The suggestions received a lukewarm response at the time.
08:52:15 <LJWatson> ... One objection is that it would break backwards compatibility.
08:52:39 <LJWatson> JD: Could there be an "opt in" property, that could be set?
08:53:04 <chaals> LJW: what would break?
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08:53:11 <LJWatson> LW: What sort of thing would break.
08:54:03 <LJWatson> SF: If you had an element with event handling and a particular role, then had the browser provide event handling based on the role, it could break.
08:54:36 <LJWatson> CMN: You could test by taking an ARIA button and apply its JS to an actual button, to find out whether anything broke.
08:54:59 <LJWatson> ... Is it a good idea to do ARIA outside of the accessibility API?
08:55:24 <LJWatson> SF: Although the idea has been that it shouldn't, the spec language is very "airy fairy".
08:55:45 <LJWatson> CMN: We want some better level of interoperability.
08:56:31 <LJWatson> ... Part of the question is how much of the objection (effecting native interaction) is because it would break the accessibility encapsulation?
08:58:03 <LJWatson> ... Related question is Web Components. If you're extending something, how do you add to or alter it's behaviour?
08:58:08 <LJWatson> JD: Example?
08:58:46 <LJWatson> CMN: Want to extend date pickers, so I can have a circular thing with the moon moving around. The interaction is the moon moving around the UI.
08:59:17 <LJWatson> SF: The current date picker is shown by default. There are no separate modules.
08:59:50 <LJWatson> CMN: Yes. If you use <input type="date"> that's what you get. No ability to choose to use my own "moon date picker" instead.
09:00:32 <LJWatson> JD: <video> and <audio> have the controls attribute, which lets them decide whether to use the default browser UI. Could we use that model?
09:01:01 <LJWatson> CMN: Yes, with the date picker that could be possible.
09:01:01 <chaals> LJW: the dismissable attribute in panels is similar
09:01:24 <chaals> s/LJW: the dismissable attribute in panels is similar//
09:02:03 <LJWatson> CMN: Thinking about it another way... people make tab sets with ARIA. If we make a native tabs component, what's the process?
09:02:47 <LJWatson> ... Other examples, sliders, spinners.
09:03:22 <LJWatson> SF: There are some reasonably good examples of custom sliders using CSS and bits and pieces - using <input type="range"> but putting stuff on top to make it look the way you want.
09:03:48 <LJWatson> CMN: So hiding the original range, and layering an alternative view over the top?
09:03:56 <LJWatson> SF: Yes, but you can still use the same interactions/keys etc.
09:04:58 <chaals> LJW: Do we know more about the proposal in ARIA2 to make ARIA extensible to cope with e.g. web components
09:05:09 <chaals> … think it is like windows control patterns
09:05:31 <chaals> JD: I think we are waiting on Cynthia to have time to move that forward.
09:05:39 <SteveF> input type=range examples http://codepen.io/collection/DgYaMj/
09:07:18 <LJWatson> LW: We should start documenting use cases for extending ARIA capability beyond the acc APPIs.
09:07:59 <LJWatson> CMN: Yes. Some are obvious - like who don't get the visal metaphor of what's on-screen, but don't have another tool to tell them.
09:08:58 <LJWatson> s/like who don't get the visal /like people who don't get the visual /
09:09:05 <LJWatson> rrsagent make minutes
09:09:31 <chaals> s/acc APPIs/accessibility APIs/
09:09:35 <LJWatson> JD: We don't know what developers are doing. If we could find an opt in mechanism, it would save a lot of testing.
09:10:04 <LJWatson> SF: One of the suggestions in my email was to leverage the <label> element. Don't think this should break anything.
09:10:22 <LJWatson> CMN: We should spend time today testing a few things out.
09:11:25 <LJWatson> JD: Taking the first example in Steve's email (using the label element). If I've already provided that behaviour, there could be a conflict between the browser handling and the developer handling.
09:12:15 <LJWatson> SF: The label example is fairly simple, in that it just binds a synthetic click event to the control.
09:12:28 <LJWatson> ... For the most part people dn't use labels on custom controls.
09:12:42 <LJWatson> JD: But what if I did? People have to be able to opt in.
09:12:58 <LJWatson> SF: Think we need to look at actual usage in the wild to gauge impact.
09:13:16 <LJWatson> ... If it breaks one site in a million, it's acceptable, if it breaks a thousand you have to stop and consider.
09:13:25 <LJWatson> rrsagent make minutes
09:13:48 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:13:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
09:14:05 <LJWatson> CMN: With opt in, you need al browsers to implement before anytone will use it.
09:14:38 <LJWatson> s/anytone/anyone/
09:15:02 <LJWatson> ... Once you get some browser implementation, it makes sense for others to folow.
09:17:18 <LJWatson> CMN: We want some examples from the wild and test to see if they break.
09:17:27 <LJWatson> JD: How do we test?
09:18:02 <LJWatson> CMN: Replace the custom control with its native counterpart and see whether the native event handling breaks the developer implemented event handling etc.
09:19:02 <chaals> https://yandex.com/yandsearch?text=aria%20examples
09:19:43 <LJWatson> ... Do we have a good source of examples in the wild?
09:19:52 <LJWatson> ... The MDN examples perhaps?
09:23:34 <chaals> Random example 1 - http://oaa-accessibility.org/examplep/button1/ - just changing the li to button seems to break. But I didn't yet look at the JS to see if it depends on the thing being an li…
09:24:40 <LJWatson> http://govuk-elements.herokuapp.com/
09:25:04 <LJWatson> LW: Design patterns used on Gov.UK. Should include ARIA enabled patterns.
09:32:38 <chaals> Making the minimal required changes to my random example above, I don't see instant breakage… I'll post it somewhere people can test.
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09:34:03 <LJWatson> CMN: It passes the "sniff test". At least a basic example of a custom control from the wid that doesn't seem to break when native event handling is added.
09:34:15 <LJWatson> s/the wid/the wild/
09:34:29 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
09:34:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
09:39:55 <LJWatson> JD: I think that implementing native behaviour when, for example, role="button" is used, would involve a huge amount of browser code rewrite.
09:40:42 <LJWatson> ... Then there is the question of performance - all the checks to determine whether the div actually was a div.
09:41:00 <LJWatson> CMN: It isn't a trivial change.
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09:41:20 <LJWatson> ... We should ask people who do browser engine core for their opinion.
09:41:27 <LJWatson> ... Why would you check eery div?
09:41:55 <LJWatson> JD: When there is an event, it's sent to web core, then its processed to see what kind of event it is, then what it should cause to happen.
09:43:16 <LJWatson> CMN: Essentially the proposal is that whenever you find something with a role on it, then you push it down the path of that element, rather than the default role for the element.
09:43:45 <LJWatson> JD: Could do an implementation example for firefox perhaps.
09:43:51 <chaals> s/that element/the element corresponding to the aria role/
09:44:14 <LJWatson> SF: Are we approaching the problem in the wrong way? for the majority of simple widgets (buttons, checkboxes etc.) with native equivalents, is because of the styling problem.
09:44:35 <LJWatson> ... Do we need to improve the stylability/usefulness of the native implementations?
09:44:47 <LJWatson> ... Same for simple Web Comps.
09:46:03 <LJWatson> JD: A point made earlier was that developers don't get the scripting part right.
09:46:14 <LJWatson> ... So the problem and the solution are in the JavaScript.
09:46:50 <LJWatson> ... What is falling apart is the JS for accessibility. If we can fix things there, that would make sense.
09:47:58 <SteveF> What ARIA does not do http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2014/08/what-aria-does-not-do/
09:48:10 <LJWatson> LW: I've spoke to a lot of developers who initially assumed that ARIA would provide functionality.
09:48:24 <LJWatson> JD: Did they nt notice when it didn't work?
09:49:01 <LJWatson> LW: No, this is the way developers think ARIA shold work, before they discover that it doesn't.
09:49:18 <LJWatson> CMN: When you have a real button and you hit the enter key, it generates a click event.
09:49:45 <LJWatson> ... They won't generate click events for custom buttons.
09:50:31 <LJWatson> ... So I provide a click handler for a <button> and it can also be used with the keyboard. If I create a custom button the keyboard handling has to be added by the developer... and that equals death.
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10:47:09 <chaals> s/No, this is/Yes, but this is/
10:47:59 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:47:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
10:49:22 <LJWatson> JD: If we leave it to authors to handle the user-interaction, they get it wrong. But it works for mouse interaction, so where does it go wrong?
10:49:39 <LJWatson> CMN: In providing the keyboard interaction.
10:50:10 <LJWatson> JD: Are there others?
10:50:20 <LJWatson> LW: Touch opens up a world of problems for accessible event handling.
10:50:46 <LJWatson> CMN: Also voice/speech recognition - but not sure.
10:51:27 <chaals> s/Also/I suspect that things are not rosy in/
10:51:44 <LJWatson> CMN: So problem #1 is author provided interaction.
10:53:33 <LJWatson> JD: Trying to zero in on the problem. Is it just event handling? Tabindex causes things to become focusable.
10:54:27 <LJWatson> LW: If you use <button> and provide click handling, the browser throws in keyboard handling for free. If you use a custom control that doesn't happen.
10:54:33 <LJWatson> JD: Other examples?
10:54:46 <LJWatson> SF: A native link is activated by enter, and space scrolls the page.
10:55:25 <LJWatson> ... Perhaps checkboxes too?
10:55:41 <LJWatson> JD: Is it just handling space/enter on controls with tabindex?
10:56:24 <LJWatson> CMN: There are considerations with other things like sliders, tabs, date pickers etc.
10:57:23 <LJWatson> ... Also thinking about the "where am I?" problem.
10:58:12 <LJWatson> ... Does HTML define what happens when you click on something?
10:58:52 <LJWatson> ... Two things that are failing are - orientation information, and author defined interaction.
10:59:38 <LJWatson> LW: You'r eincluding the problem with people not understanding the visual metaphor, within the orientation issue?
11:00:00 <LJWatson> CMN: Yes. Also live regions. If you have a live region not in view, how do you know the thing changed?
11:00:13 <LJWatson> ... Browsers decided that wasn't important.
11:00:33 <LJWatson> JD: My cconcern is that different users have different ideas about what it is they need.
11:00:56 <LJWatson> ... Leaving some of that to the AT gets us a bit closer to meeting people's various needs.
11:01:59 <LJWatson> CMN: On the CMN: On the other hand there's nothing worse than missing information.
11:02:11 <LJWatson> JD: Yes, but I'm not sure it should be down to the browser to provide the behaviour?
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11:03:17 <LJWatson> JD: Can you use CSS to inject elements?
11:04:24 <LJWatson> JD: Can you use CSS to inject elements?
11:04:31 <LJWatson> CMN: No, images and text.
11:06:07 <SteveF__> SteveF__ has joined #html-a11y
11:06:27 <LJWatson> LW: CSS generated content is available in the acc APIs in all browsers except IE.
11:07:44 <LJWatson> JD: Wondering if something has tabindex...
11:08:03 <LJWatson> CMN: If something has a tabindex it should be interactive. The difficult part is knowing that that interaction should be.
11:08:21 <LJWatson> JD: Could we then have an attribute that will cause space/enter to work - not even an ARIA attribute?
11:08:27 <LJWatson> CMN: Would say that's unlikely.
11:08:37 <LJWatson> ... Perhaps we start with browser bugs?
11:09:20 <LJWatson> JD: If it's a native button element and you press enter or space, the browser generates the click event? so we need some attrib like handleonclick or something.
11:09:35 <LJWatson> CMN: You don't want an attribute for that. You just want browsers to do it.
11:11:31 <LJWatson> CMN: There is a problem case when a user expects space to scroll the page and not activate a link, or vice versa. Then we get a bad UX.
11:11:45 <LJWatson> ... Asking developers to fix this means we'll have a problem forever.
11:12:25 <LJWatson> ... The real problem cases are where there is special handling. A slider and space pushes the slider to the end, where as click does something different.
11:12:41 <LJWatson> JD: How could that be solved?
11:13:38 <LJWatson> ... What is the keyboard interaction we'd expect?
11:14:57 <LJWatson> JD: Like tabindex - it works, but it isn't connected to ARIA.
11:15:15 <LJWatson> LW: ARIA expanded the capabilities of tabindex to include 0 and -1 values, so it is sort of connected.
11:15:26 <LJWatson> JD: Was thinking more about aria- attributes.
11:15:39 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:15:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
11:19:09 <chaals> [[[
11:19:17 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
11:19:28 <chaals> ]]]
11:19:38 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:19:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
11:20:47 <chaals> s|]]]|In some cases, a https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-host-language may define attributes or even attribute values which add to or change the native https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-activation-trigger or https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-activation-behavior of an element.]]]|
11:21:38 <chaals> s|]]]| For example, ARIA [https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#ref-ARIA] defines values for the role attribute that add semantics to the element to which it is applied, for purposes of enhanced accessibility. ]]]
11:22:44 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y
11:23:13 <chaals> s|]]]| In such cases, if the https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-host-language does not explicitly define the https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-activation-trigger or https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-activation-behavior, the content author must provide the mechanics of the https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-activation-trigger(via an event listener) ]]]
11:23:31 <chaals> s|]]]| or https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#glossary-activation-behavior (such as calling an ECMAScript function) for that element when applying that attribute or attribute value. ]]] - https://w3c.github.io/uievents/#event-flow-activation
11:23:40 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:23:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
11:25:13 <LJWatson> CMN reads from UIEvents.
11:25:50 <LJWatson> CMN: What is it about button that makes it get the click + keyboard handling?
11:26:10 <LJWatson> JD: It starts at the platform layer and bubbles up to web core.
11:26:51 <LJWatson> ... Thinking out loud, seems the problem is when the host language hasn't defined it, and the author has to provide the mechanics.
11:27:05 <LJWatson> ... When what we want is for the author just to provide the activation trigger.
11:27:24 <chaals> [noodling on the problem that when you make <button onclick="foo()"> you can use a keyboard activation and the browser runs foo(). But when you have role="button" onclick="foo()", that doesn't happen.
11:27:32 <LJWatson> LW: This is where we arrive at IndieUI isn't it?
11:27:37 <LJWatson> JD: I wondered about that.
11:28:22 <LJWatson> CMN: What we want, is where you have a role that points to a known element type, we want the same activation behaviour to be provided by the browser as it would for the native equivalent.
11:28:44 <LJWatson> JD: What if there was an activation behaviour attribute?
11:29:33 <LJWatson> ... If we had a new attribute, let's say treat-like. So <div role="button" treatLike="button">?
11:29:49 <LJWatson> CMN: It would give us element behaviour.
11:30:07 <LJWatson> LW: Feel liks is= again many respects.
11:30:56 <LJWatson> s/Feel liks is=/Feels like is=/
11:31:02 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:31:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
11:31:11 <LJWatson> JD: is=?
11:31:34 <LJWatson> CMN: Web Components syntax for implementing type extensions - where you inherit the characteristics of a native HTML element.
11:32:12 <LJWatson> JD: Could a new attribute solve this?
11:32:18 <LJWatson> CMN: It could work, probably.
11:32:45 <LJWatson> ... Question is it necessary?
11:33:00 <LJWatson> ... If you have role="button" you should get the default interaction for button.
11:33:35 <LJWatson> SF: Plus other events like touch.
11:33:47 <LJWatson> CMN: Yes. Would it break anything? Probably not.
11:34:46 <LJWatson> JD: I still think it might break things. I think an extra attribute is a better thing to sell.
11:34:53 <LJWatson> CMN: Selling an extra attribute isn't easy.
11:35:36 <LJWatson> LW: It will be met with the same objections as is=.
11:35:37 <chaals> s/easy/easy - the key to what we want is that authors doing the naive dumb thing actually get the outcome they would like/
11:36:15 <LJWatson> JD: Don't think people will be happy about the potential for things to change.
11:37:39 <LJWatson> CMN: The risk scenario is that the author assumed that the browser would provide native interaction, and it doesn't. Providing that native handling wouldn't break that.
11:37:56 <LJWatson> ... Even when an author has provided custom handling, it still wouldn't reak.
11:38:55 <LJWatson> LW: It'll work in the same way it does now if you put custom handling on a native element - the browser handling is overriden by the custom handling.
11:43:52 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:43:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
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12:03:40 <SteveF> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/07/a11y-slackers/
12:24:23 <joanie> https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/html/RangeInputType.cpp#L194
12:25:11 <SteveF_> SteveF_ has joined #html-a11y
12:29:58 <chaals> -> http://www.oaa-accessibility.org/examplep/slider1/ slider examples
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14:21:35 <chaals> Topic: Wishlist
14:21:51 <chaals> -> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/51wishlist the TF wishlist
14:23:26 <chaals> -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html-task-force work statement
14:25:17 <LJWatson> CMN: We have keyboard interaction on the wishlist. Trying to identify problems with the current interaction models, and what we might be able to do to fix them.
14:25:26 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:25:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:25:56 <LJWatson> ... There is transcript. We now have a prposed spec.
14:30:58 <LJWatson> ... Panels and panelsets. There is a spec for this.
14:35:39 <LJWatson> ... There are date pickers. https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Datepickers
14:36:29 <LJWatson> ... Menus. Cynthia might be interested possibly.
14:36:57 <LJWatson> ... Payments. Shane is assigned to this.
14:39:51 <LJWatson> ... On the list of things without owners there is referencing UAAG, footnotes, cognitive (being done elsewhere), media descriptions, numeric inputs, Emotion ML...
14:40:00 <LJWatson> LW: Wouldn't mind looking at Emotion ML.
14:40:57 <LJWatson> ... What was the reason we wanted to look into it?
14:41:09 <LJWatson> CMN: Don't know. Mark S was originally assigned.
14:41:13 <LJWatson> LW: Will ping him.
14:41:32 <LJWatson> CMN: Haptic feedback - Léonie, Marku and me are interested.
14:41:43 <LJWatson> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:41:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:41:43 <janina> Shane, Theyre's a mini F2F ongoing in Spain. That's what you're seeing.
14:41:50 <LJWatson> rssagent, set logs world-visible
14:42:53 <LJWatson> CMN: Gaming.
14:43:02 <LJWatson> LW: Any idea what aspect of gaming we wanted to look at?
14:43:12 <LJWatson> CMN: No.
14:44:09 <LJWatson> ... Explore requirements for gaming.
14:44:19 <LJWatson> LW: That seems beyond the scope of HTML.
14:44:45 <LJWatson> CMN: Media descriptions - associating short or long textual descriptions.
14:45:08 <LJWatson> ... Think in media we have mechanisms for everything except transcripts, and that's coming son.
14:45:31 <LJWatson> ... Would like to take up media descriptions.
14:45:34 <chaals> ACTION: chaals to take up "media descriptions" topic in the TF
14:45:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-329 - Take up "media descriptions" topic in the tf [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2015-07-16].
14:47:29 <LJWatson> ... We should look at Canvas. Does it allow an alt?
14:47:34 <LJWatson> LW: No, don't think so.
14:47:42 <LJWatson> CMN: No, confirmed it doesn't.
14:48:09 <chaals> action 329?
14:48:15 <chaals> action-329?
14:48:15 <trackbot> action-329 -- Charles McCathie Nevile to Take up "media descriptions" topic in the tf -- due 2015-07-16 -- OPEN
14:48:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/329
14:48:56 <LJWatson> CMN: New things... someone suggested zip codes.
14:53:17 <LJWatson> Cognitive TF http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/cognitive-a11y-tf/
14:57:14 <LJWatson> CMN: Pause for weekly TF telecon.
14:57:29 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
14:58:02 <chaals> Topic: Weekly teleconf
14:58:06 <chaals> chair: Chaals
14:58:06 <chaals> agenda+ other agenda?
14:58:06 <chaals> agenda+ canvas implementation - RichS, MarkS, where are we up to?
14:58:06 <chaals> agenda+ face to face meeting - what are we doing / what did we do?
14:58:07 <chaals> agenda+ editing the alt guidance https://github.com/w3c/alt-techniques
14:58:07 <chaals> agenda+ transcripts: call for First Public Working Draft? w3c.github.io/html-transcript/html-transcript-src.html
14:58:07 <chaals> agenda+ action item review https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
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14:58:19 <chaals> chair: Chaals
14:58:19 <chaals> agenda+ other agenda?
14:58:19 <chaals> agenda+ canvas implementation - RichS, MarkS, where are we up to?
14:58:19 <chaals> agenda+ face to face meeting - what are we doing / what did we do?
14:58:20 <chaals> agenda+ editing the alt guidance https://github.com/w3c/alt-techniques
14:58:20 <chaals> agenda+ transcripts: call for First Public Working Draft? w3c.github.io/html-transcript/html-transcript-src.html
14:58:20 <chaals> agenda+ action item review https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:00:42 <SteveF> SteveF has joined #html-a11y
15:00:45 <chaals> Present+ Chaals, Léonie, Joanie
15:00:57 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
15:02:55 <chaals> Present- Joanie, LJWatson
15:03:41 <SteveF_> SteveF_ has joined #html-a11y
15:04:09 <plh> plh has joined #html-a11y
15:05:55 <plh> Present+ Plh
15:05:58 <JF_> JF_ has joined #html-a11y
15:06:13 <plh> agenda?
15:06:20 <plh> agenda+ Editing the HTML spec
15:08:02 <chaals> zakim, drop agendum 1
15:08:02 <Zakim> agendum 1, other agenda?, dropped
15:08:04 <plh> scribe: plh
15:08:08 <plh> Regrets+ MarkS
15:08:19 <chaals> scribe: chaals
15:08:27 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:08:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html plh
15:08:33 <JF_> Present+ JF
15:08:41 <chaals> Present+ PLH
15:08:44 <chaals> zakim, take up item 2
15:08:44 <Zakim> agendum 2. "canvas implementation - RichS, MarkS, where are we up to?" taken up [from chaals]
15:08:55 <chaals> [see PLH's email]
15:08:55 <ShaneM> Present+ ShaneM
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15:09:36 <chaals> PLH: wrote 3 of the missing tests, the fourth one I don't understand. need to sit down with Mark to work it out.
15:10:25 <chaals> … updating results. For one new test there is a bug in chrome, not reporting the right region in accessibility API, will double-check before filing bug.
15:10:41 <chaals> … If we're lucky, Mark and I will meet to make progress this arvo. Else Monday.
15:10:52 <plh> -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2015Jul/0014.html canvas update
15:11:21 <chaals> CMN: You expect hitregions will make it?
15:11:47 <chaals> PLH: Hope so. If we have an implementation with a recognised bug expected to be fixed, we should be able to move forward with it.
15:12:00 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:12:00 <Zakim> agendum 3. "face to face meeting - what are we doing / what did we do?" taken up [from chaals]
15:12:04 <plh> scribe: plh
15:12:23 <plh> Charles: only 3 or 4 of us are able to attend
15:12:36 <plh> ... looking at keyboard a11y for ARIA
15:12:56 <plh> ... and John is helping in our understanding of the webkit code
15:13:17 <plh> s/are/were/
15:13:27 <JF_> s/and John/and Joanie/
15:13:40 <janina>  John??
15:14:06 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:14:27 <plh> (see minutes at http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html)
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15:14:32 <paulc> present+
15:14:38 <paulc> Sorry I am late.
15:14:54 <plh> Present Paul
15:14:59 <plh> Present+ Paul
15:15:04 <chaals> s/Present Paul//
15:15:21 <plh> Charles: questions about the f2f?
15:15:48 <plh> [none heard]
15:16:03 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:16:03 <Zakim> agendum 4. "editing the alt guidance https://github.com/w3c/alt-techniques" taken up [from chaals]
15:16:19 <plh> Charles: any news from Shane?
15:16:36 <plh> ... we have a github repo. PR to gh-pages branch?
15:16:40 <plh> Shane: go for it
15:17:54 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:17:54 <Zakim> agendum 5. "transcripts: call for First Public Working Draft? w3c.github.io/html-transcript/html-transcript-src.html" taken up [from chaals]
15:18:41 <janina> present+ Janina
15:18:47 <plh> Charles: [under discussion at the f2f]
15:19:03 <plh> ... we'll continue to propose a FPWD
15:19:40 <plh> ... PRs are welcome
15:19:54 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:19:54 <Zakim> agendum 6. "action item review https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from chaals]
15:20:29 <plh> [going through the actions]
15:20:43 <plh> Charles will chase the tab panel through the WICG
15:20:56 <plh> action-260?
15:20:56 <trackbot> action-260 -- Shane McCarron to Present web payments in tf meeting -- due 2015-06-30 -- OPEN
15:20:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/260
15:21:06 <plh> Shane: make it 3 weeks from today
15:21:06 <chaals> action-260 due in 3 weeks
15:21:06 <trackbot> Set action-260 Present web payments in tf meeting due date to 2015-07-30.
15:21:12 <JF_> Q+
15:21:27 <chaals> ack jf
15:21:45 <chaals> ACTION: JF get the matrix to Shane…
15:21:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-330 - Get the matrix to shane… [on John Foliot - due 2015-07-16].
15:22:20 <chaals> action-327 due in 1 week
15:22:20 <trackbot> Set action-327 Check if chrome hitregion implementation actually works due date to 2015-07-16.
15:22:42 <chaals> close action-317
15:22:42 <trackbot> Closed action-317.
15:23:10 <plh> Charles: we've been looking at readonly for forms
15:23:26 <plh> ... we think it make sens to have readonly for checkboxes, textinput, etc.
15:23:44 <plh> ... we see people trying to do so
15:23:57 <plh> ... idea is to make them unfocusable
15:24:09 <chaals> zakim, next item
15:24:09 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Editing the HTML spec" taken up [from plh]
15:24:13 <chaals> scribe: chaals
15:24:31 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/spork/blob/master/README.md
15:24:37 <chaals> PLH: spent yesterday doing things in the HTML spec, so here is how to do it.
15:24:58 <chaals> Start at spork's readme - that's the tool that converts the WHATWG spec to HTML 5.1
15:25:06 <chaals> … change spork, it generates the spec.
15:25:22 <chaals> … If we manage to make progress on modularisation, the story may change entirely.
15:25:48 <chaals> … if we make modules, people will be able to make changes that will be propogated from spork.
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15:26:18 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/spork/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed
15:26:32 <chaals> … Start with the readme, edit a clone. Spork applies JS rules to the spec. In the editing section it tells you what has to be changed- we have examples, as above.
15:27:09 <chaals> … Depending on the type of change you make, e.g. touching something we are modifying, you have to find which rule is applying by grep for a keyword.
15:27:31 <chaals> … If you modify something we haven't touched from WHATWG, you make the rules - we have examples of that too.
15:27:58 <chaals> … Yesterday I modified an algorithm, and fixed a typo.
15:28:10 <paulc> Are you changes tracked in a Bugzilla bug?
15:28:18 <paulc> s/you/your/
15:28:28 <chaals> … So I encourage you to look into that. It is a little painful, you have to use jquery. Takes a bit of getting used to.
15:28:42 <chaals> … But then goes faster. If you have trouble, I'm happy to help you.
15:28:51 <SteveF> plh: sounds painful ;-)
15:28:54 <chaals> … But I hope that now I have cleaned up documentation, it should be easier.
15:29:06 <chaals> s/plh: sounds painful ;)//
15:29:15 <chaals> PLH: Yes, changes have bugzilla references in them.
15:29:17 <paulc> Thanks
15:29:39 <chaals> PLH: Not painful - takes understanding but isn't that complicated.
15:30:20 <paulc> q+
15:30:22 <SteveF> plh: will take a look and ping you with q's
15:30:38 <chaals> CMN: If there is a change that is a bit controversial, what is the process?
15:30:46 <chaals> PC: Make the change, send a note to public-html.
15:31:15 <chaals> … when editors were cherrypicking WHATWG changes, they sent patch notices - bug number, what they did. Seems a reasonable model to follow.
15:31:30 <chaals> s/plh: will take a look and ping you with q's//
15:31:52 <chaals> PLH: I did pull requests, Robin merged them.
15:32:00 <chaals> … I didn't commit directly.
15:32:16 <paulc> q+
15:32:23 <chaals> … If you have a change like that, make a PR and have the discussion in bugzilla/ public-html
15:33:03 <chaals> PC: Seem to be in a middle ground here. Not many people would know that they should start tracking github for pull requests. We should aim to be transparent so people know what is going on.
15:33:12 <chaals> PLH: I made Pull Requests…
15:33:21 <chaals> … and Bugzilla changes
15:33:38 <chaals> PC: Yes, but people don't see those unless they signed on to track the bug when it was created.
15:33:43 <chaals> … so people won't know.
15:34:08 <chaals> PLH: OK, for the substantive algorithm that was a substantive change matching implementation, it makes sense to send something.
15:34:37 <chaals> PC: OK. We should encourage people to write to the WG about the Pull Requests, as a way of socialising how we are working and remind people where to look.
15:35:27 <plh> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&columnlist=bug_id%2Cassigned_to%2Creporter%2Cbug_status%2Cresolution%2Cshort_desc%2Copendate%2Cchangeddate&component=HTML5%20spec&list_id=58112&order=opendate%2Cbug_status%2Cpriority%2Cassigned_to%2Cbug_id&product=HTML%20WG&product=HTML.next&query_format=advanced
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15:36:29 <chaals> PC: there are fewer bugs - has there been a change?
15:36:29 <chaals> PLH: Yes.
15:36:46 <chaals> CMN: A bunch of people have been closing out invalid bugs…
15:37:21 <chaals> PLH: There are bugs that will not generate changes in teh spec. I have been going through the easy ones to learn how to edit HTML.
15:37:31 <paulc> THANK YOU, plh
15:37:33 <chaals> PC: Thank you PLH
15:37:39 <chaals> PLH: Welcome :)
15:37:45 <JF_> +1 thanks PLH
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15:39:43 <chaals> [teleconf adjourned]
15:39:51 <paulc> rrsagent, generate the minutes
15:39:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html paulc
15:41:23 <chaals> s/Sorry I am late.//
15:41:36 <chaals> s/John??//
15:42:43 <chaals> s/scribenick LJWatson/scribenick: LJWatson/
15:42:47 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:42:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:43:56 <chaals> s|i.Topic/scribe: chaals/|scribe: chaals
15:44:00 <chaals> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:44:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/08-html-a11y-minutes.html chaals
15:45:37 <chaals> Meeting: HAT face-to-face Zgz+ teleconf, 8-10 jul 2015
15:46:23 <chaals> rrsagent, this meeting spans midnight
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16:02:45 <chaals> s/Making aria play with the rest of the children/ARIA keyboard interaction/
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17:55:44 <plh> Shane, fyi, I'm cleaning up the alt-techniques respec bits
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19:02:22 <plh> ShaneM, here https://w3c.github.io/alt-techniques/ , now bright and shiny
19:02:43 <plh> ShaneM, revert the changes if you don't like but hopefully you will
19:02:59 <ShaneM> I will do a quick review.  thanks
19:03:24 <ShaneM> liam has plans to remove many many examples if I remember correctly
19:03:46 <plh> that's fine. at least the ones there are known to respec now
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09:19:45 <SteveF> Joanie: some ideas on navigation for landmarks https://docs.google.com/document/d/11yzSsHorM3mkG8fLk_etdY-jcpYjZIHAKT3qDzkuyMI/edit?usp=sharing
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10:57:23 <SteveF> pushed commit http://bkardell.github.io/common-panel/index.src.html#the-panel-element
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12:10:43 <SteveF> http://s.codepen.io/stevef/debug/MwGERK
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