IRC log of tt on 2015-07-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:31 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/07/02-tt-irc

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RRSAgent, make logs public

13:59:33 [Zakim]

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13:59:35 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be TTML

13:59:35 [Zakim]

I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot

13:59:36 [trackbot]

Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference

13:59:36 [trackbot]

Date: 02 July 2015

14:00:08 [nigel]

zakim, this is TTML

14:00:08 [Zakim]

sorry, nigel, I do not see a conference named 'TTML' in progress or scheduled at this time

14:00:34 [tmichel]

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14:01:50 [nigel]

Present: nigel

14:01:52 [nigel]

Chair: nigel

14:01:55 [nigel]

scribe: nigel

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14:02:14 [pal]

present+ pal

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14:03:38 [nigel]

Present+ atai2

14:04:15 [nigel]

Present+ tmichel

14:04:43 [nigel]

Regrets: glenn, Frans

14:05:31 [nigel]

Topic: This meeting

14:05:45 [nigel]

nigel: pal has asked me for an agenda item on reaching to unicode, so we'll add that.

14:06:01 [nigel]

nigel: Any other Other Business?

14:06:03 [nigel]

group: no

14:06:10 [nigel]

Topic: Action Items

14:06:43 [nigel]

action-406?

14:06:43 [trackbot]

action-406 -- Andreas Tai to Follow on creating a strawman re: html cue extension specification -- due 2015-06-25 -- OPEN

14:06:43 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/406

14:07:32 [nigel]

atai2: I've had an informal discussion with Opera and some others here as a result. We discussed last

14:07:48 [nigel]

... time who will take the lead on creating a strawman proposal to create an HTMLCue extension to

14:08:01 [nigel]

... take to the HTML WG. One proposal is Opera could do it because they have already done some

14:08:20 [nigel]

work on it. They are happy to help out based on their existing knowledge and internal implementation

14:08:37 [nigel]

... but they cannot lead it over the next 6 months. I talked to Giuseppe from Opera and he mentioned

14:08:52 [nigel]

... it would be possibly better to summarise the idea briefly and see how much initial agreement

14:09:10 [nigel]

... there is from people working on the issue in this group (HTML). I think that would be a good idea,

14:09:29 [nigel]

... to talk to the browser community about HTMLCue and test the response. Possibly a complete

14:09:41 [nigel]

... draft is not necessary at this point because it's more a question if the browser vendors are willing

14:09:52 [nigel]

... to accept this kind of extension. Then after that it would be easier to decide who would take the

14:10:06 [nigel]

... lead on that. The bigger problem is to convince the relevant groups to implement/support this as

14:10:14 [nigel]

... an HTML extension.

14:10:57 [nigel]

nigel: That sounds like a reasonable approach. Is the first strawman essentially an abstract? Who can do that?

14:11:15 [nigel]

atai2: I can work on that and circulate it. We should mention also why it is useful to have a generic

14:11:29 [nigel]

... approach that would allow other formats to be integrated in the HTML browser environment.

14:11:42 [nigel]

... It's both to show the business case and the technical idea behind it.

14:12:38 [nigel]

nigel: Thanks for volunteering. When would be a good date for the action?

14:12:44 [nigel]

atai2: Possibly 16th July

14:12:48 [nigel]

nigel: I've updated the action.

14:13:00 [nigel]

action-407?

14:13:00 [trackbot]

action-407 -- Nigel Megitt to Determine summer schedule -- due 2015-07-02 -- OPEN

14:13:00 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/407

14:14:30 [nigel]

nigel: Have I understood this correctly that it's about scheduling meetings?

14:14:34 [nigel]

tmichel: Yes, that's it.

14:14:51 [nigel]

nigel: I've had a couple of responses. There's one absence on August 20th but apart from that I've

14:15:34 [nigel]

... had no reason to cancel any meetings. Was there any other concern that lead to this?

14:15:49 [nigel]

tmichel: No, I raised it because some groups schedule a summer break. We can continue to schedule

14:16:03 [nigel]

... meetings and if it looks like there won't be enough people present then cancel a couple of days

14:16:06 [nigel]

... beforehand.

14:16:22 [nigel]

nigel: That works for me. I'll leave the action open so people can send me their non-availability.

14:16:31 [nigel]

... Otherwise we'll continue with weekly meetings as normal.

14:16:44 [nigel]

Action-408?

14:16:44 [trackbot]

Action-408 -- Thierry Michel to Coordinate with nigel re: tpac wiki page -- due 2015-07-02 -- OPEN

14:16:44 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/408

14:17:07 [nigel]

nigel: What's behind this one?

14:17:16 [nigel]

tmichel: We currently have a wiki page:

14:17:18 [tmichel]

https://www.w3.org/Team/wiki/TPAC/2015

14:18:17 [nigel]

nigel: I can't access that one - is there a TTWG one rather than a Team page?

14:19:11 [nigel]

tmichel: I'll create a page so people from TTWG can fill in their names, when they're coming etc.

14:20:07 [nigel]

Action-408: [meeting 2015-07-02] tmichel to create a TTWG accessible wiki page for TPAC 2015 logistics etc

14:20:07 [trackbot]

Notes added to Action-408 Coordinate with nigel re: tpac wiki page.

14:20:36 [nigel]

nigel: Great, you could use the 2014 TPAC page as a basis if you want.

14:20:43 [nigel]

tmichel: Yes, I won't start from scratch!

14:21:18 [nigel]

Topic: Issues

14:21:24 [nigel]

issue-396?

14:21:24 [trackbot]

issue-396 -- Invalid codepoints (el) -- raised

14:21:24 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/396

14:21:34 [nigel]

issue-397?

14:21:34 [trackbot]

issue-397 -- Sync recommended codepoints with CFF-TT -- raised

14:21:34 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/397

14:22:08 [nigel]

pal: Issue-396 is pretty straightforward: In the character set associated with Greek there's a range,

14:22:22 [nigel]

... and there are 2 code points that are associated with no Unicode characters. The correction is to

14:22:30 [nigel]

... remove those invalid Unicode code points from that range.

14:22:50 [nigel]

... I suspect someone just copied the range not realising that there are two invalid code points in there.

14:22:58 [nigel]

reopen issue-396

14:22:58 [trackbot]

Re-opened issue-396.

14:23:34 [nigel]

pal: Issue-397 - I'm not sure it demands immediate action. Based on the text in IMSC 1 that combines

14:24:16 [nigel]

... the CLDR main and punctuation character sets and the named codes has prompted DECE to update

14:24:30 [nigel]

... their spec to do the same thing. But that may be overtaken by events if we choose to approach

14:24:46 [nigel]

... Unicode and recommend that they adopt character sets specifically used in captioning. So I would

14:24:57 [nigel]

... hold off making any changes here until we've resolved what to do with Unicode.

14:25:16 [nigel]

nigel: Now seems like a good time to come to that point. You have a proposal?

14:25:34 [nigel]

pal: Yes. We've mentioned a couple of times briefly this idea and I thought it would be good to make

14:25:54 [nigel]

... it concrete. Annex B of IMSC 1 contains recommended character sets for a given language. The idea

14:26:06 [nigel]

... is that not all clients will implement all Unicode code points. After much discussion where we

14:26:26 [nigel]

... ended up is combining the characters recommended by DECE, found by studying existing content,

14:26:41 [nigel]

... with the CLDR character sets published by Unicode, which are those characters in common use for

14:26:58 [nigel]

... each language. Right now Annex B is this combination of CFF-TT and CLDR. The idea is to take this

14:27:15 [nigel]

... and submit to Unicode a proposal to add to CLDR character sets specifically for subtitling and captioning

14:27:29 [nigel]

... applications per language per locale. The reason is that characters used for captioning and subtitling

14:27:45 [nigel]

... are not necessarily those in common use. For example the musical note is commonly used in

14:27:59 [nigel]

... subtitling and captioning, as are Latin characters that wouldn't normally be used. So there would

14:28:17 [nigel]

... be a lot of benefit to adding subtitling and captioning character sets to CLDR, which would have a

14:28:39 [nigel]

... wider benefit beyond TTWG. I've generated the sets of characters based on Annex B and

14:28:53 [nigel]

... provided the analysis in an email I sent earlier. The next step would be to approach Unicode and

14:28:59 [nigel]

... have that discussion.

14:29:16 [pal]

https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015Jun/0062.html

14:29:35 [nigel]

pal: If you go to the third link in that email http://sandflow.com/public/cldr/imsc-codepoint-table.htm

14:30:10 [nigel]

... Those sets of characters were generated by applying the algorithm in Annex B of IMSC 1. That's

14:30:19 [nigel]

... what you end up with for each of the specified locales in IMSC1.

14:30:49 [nigel]

... To the best of my knowledge these are the characters in common use. It'd be good for the folks

14:30:56 [nigel]

... at Unicode to take this over and maintain it.

14:32:16 [atai2]

q+

14:32:23 [nigel]

pal: In fact I've had some conversation before with Unicode. Their feedback was neither ecstatic

14:32:44 [nigel]

... nor negative. They asked for more details, which I think the table provides. Now IMSC 1 is at a

14:32:58 [nigel]

... different level of maturity I think it will give them more confidence in starting with this. The person

14:33:54 [nigel]

... I had been recommended to talk to by plh was ... I'll look up the correct name.

14:33:59 [nigel]

ack atai2

14:34:12 [nigel]

atai2: Yes, that sounds like a good approach and a reasonable activity. I'm wondering if this should

14:34:32 [nigel]

... be a liaison from TTWG to Unicode to collaborate on such a document or table or list. As you said

14:34:51 [nigel]

... the person you talked to Pierre was not overly enthusiastic. But if there's a specific liaison letter

14:35:01 [nigel]

... explaining the use case and offering to collaborate with our group that would be better.

14:35:24 [nigel]

pal: Exactly, my suggestion would be to have a liaison. Mark Davis was the person I talked to.

14:35:41 [nigel]

... I'm not sure exactly how the liaison would work with Unicode, but I think he would be the right

14:35:57 [nigel]

... point of contact. The email I sent to the reflector contains the proposed text, if you want to have

14:36:00 [nigel]

... a look.

14:37:12 [tmichel]

go ahead Nigel send it to Richrd.

14:37:35 [nigel]

nigel: Our liaison with Unicode is via Richard Ishida, so I'll check in with him whether this is a good

14:37:40 [nigel]

... idea and then take it from there.

14:37:57 [nigel]

pal: I'm pretty sure Richard recommended Mark, so he may already be across this, since Shenzhen.

14:38:26 [nigel]

Action: nigel Discuss liaison with Unicode with Richard Ishida

14:38:26 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-409 - Discuss liaison with unicode with richard ishida [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-07-09].

14:38:47 [nigel]

Action-409: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015Jun/0062.html

14:38:47 [trackbot]

Notes added to Action-409 Discuss liaison with unicode with richard ishida.

14:39:13 [nigel]

nigel: In the meantime if everyone could review the proposed text that would be great.

14:39:46 [nigel]

reopen issue-397

14:39:46 [trackbot]

Re-opened issue-397.

14:40:04 [nigel]

issue-397: [meeting 2015-07-02] Pending potential liaison with Unicode.

14:40:04 [trackbot]

Notes added to issue-397 Sync recommended codepoints with CFF-TT.

14:40:35 [nigel]

Topic: TPAC 2015

14:41:03 [nigel]

nigel: As mentioned before, Thierry is going to create a wiki page for us for this. Also,

14:41:17 [nigel]

... registration is now open - see http://www.w3.org/2015/10/TPAC/ and follow the links.

14:43:23 [nigel]

nigel: I recommend people look sooner rather than later as the accommodation situation is somewhat

14:43:32 [nigel]

... more complex this year than it sometimes is.

14:43:57 [nigel]

... We'll need to open up for agenda items too - no immediate urgency on that.

14:44:14 [nigel]

Topic: IMSC CR2, Test Suite and Implementation Report

14:44:33 [nigel]

nigel: We've issues a Call for Implementation, right?

14:44:35 [nigel]

pal: Yes

14:45:03 [nigel]

tmichel: Yes. Pierre sent me last week a first set of implementors so I've sent an email to them,

14:45:17 [nigel]

... calling for implementation. We had agreed on this email with Pierre and Nigel added a few things.

14:45:36 [nigel]

... It links to the WBS questionnaire that asks the implementor to respond. I will be collecting these

14:45:55 [nigel]

... answers to build the Implementation Report. This will be the source. Also I will merge any emails

14:46:59 [nigel]

... sent to me with text answers. I plan to do the final merge in September once we have enough

14:47:09 [nigel]

... answers. Of course if we have 10 answers in August I will do it sooner.

14:47:32 [nigel]

nigel: Do we think we have the complete set now or will there be more?

14:47:49 [nigel]

pal: I'm working with some other folks and continuing to generate more possible implementor names.

14:48:03 [nigel]

tmichel: And we know that Glenn has a client who has asked him to do some IMSC implementation.

14:48:25 [nigel]

action-387?

14:48:25 [trackbot]

action-387 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Collate list of potential implementors of imsc 1. -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN

14:48:25 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/387

14:48:45 [nigel]

action-387: [meeting 2015-07-02] Some names already provided and contacted, work ongoing on this action.

14:48:45 [trackbot]

Notes added to action-387 Collate list of potential implementors of imsc 1..

14:50:13 [nigel]

nigel: I've updated the date on the action for 2 weeks from now, as suggested by pal.

14:50:41 [nigel]

Topic: WebVTT review feedback

14:50:58 [nigel]

action-396?

14:50:58 [trackbot]

action-396 -- David Singer to Produce evidence of request for wide review for webvtt, for the archive -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN

14:50:58 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/396

14:51:17 [nigel]

tmichel: I've sent an email to Sylvia and David asking them for the status in processing the comments

14:51:33 [nigel]

... from the W3C groups at list. Silvia reported and sent a link to the bug tracker. They've resolved

14:51:49 [nigel]

... about 13 comments out of about 30, so it's on its way but they're not done yet. This triggers

14:52:11 [nigel]

... another question for publishing a new WD including the resolutions into the spec, highlighting

14:52:55 [nigel]

... them with some CSS markup. I believe David agreed to do that and then send the responses to

14:52:57 [nigel]

... the commenter.

14:53:08 [nigel]

nigel: Normal way to approach dispositions?

14:53:16 [nigel]

tmichel: No, it's a way to propose the changes in the spec.

14:54:11 [nigel]

nigel: My understanding was a little different, that all the comments would be added either as

14:54:31 [nigel]

... resolutions or as "we're working on this" markers in the spec, and when that's ready to come to

14:54:43 [nigel]

... the WG with a request to publish a new snapshot as a WD.

14:55:15 [nigel]

tmichel: I think plh wanted to show some activity on the spec since it's a long time since the most

14:55:18 [nigel]

... recent WD.

14:55:35 [nigel]

... Where I'm unclear is who is going to request to the commenter if they're happy or not. I think it

14:55:43 [nigel]

... should be the WG not the CG.

14:56:07 [nigel]

pal: I'm confused by why we're not following the same process as last time.

14:56:20 [nigel]

nigel: I think it's the same process fundamentally but using different tools.

14:57:11 [nigel]

pal: Last time we reviewed every comment prior to republishing.

14:57:26 [nigel]

nigel: I think we still need to do that, we just haven't got there yet. We definitely need to review in

14:57:39 [nigel]

... the WG the proposed resolutions as part of the approval for publishing a new WD.

14:58:23 [nigel]

tmichel: My question is who is going to do the follow-up to check with commenters if they're happy?

14:58:46 [nigel]

nigel: I think that's down to David. I don't think it matters if the commenter comments on something

14:59:03 [nigel]

... proposed by the CG or the WG - where it comes from isn't important, just if the commenter is

14:59:06 [nigel]

... actually happy with it.

14:59:10 [nigel]

tmichel: I agree.

14:59:33 [nigel]

action-396: [Meeting 2015-07-02] Noted that this is ongoing.

14:59:33 [trackbot]

Notes added to action-396 Produce evidence of request for wide review for webvtt, for the archive.

15:00:16 [nigel]

Topic: AOB

15:00:32 [nigel]

tmichel: For coming weeks please could you add to the agenda a review of the TTML2 milestones?

15:00:36 [nigel]

nigel: Okay.

15:00:51 [nigel]

tmichel: I looked with plh and we noted that we had planned to be in CR by now.

15:02:40 [nigel]

nigel: Thanks everyone. I'll adjourn now - meet again same time next week. [Adjourns meeting]

15:03:39 [nigel]

s/Sylvia/Silvia

15:03:49 [nigel]

rrsagent, make logs public

15:03:52 [nigel]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:03:52 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/02-tt-minutes.html nigel

15:05:37 [nigel]

s/work on it/... work on it

15:05:50 [nigel]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:05:50 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/02-tt-minutes.html nigel

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s/We've issues a/We've issued a

15:12:23 [nigel]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:12:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/02-tt-minutes.html nigel

15:12:50 [nigel]

ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics

15:12:51 [nigel]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:12:51 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/07/02-tt-minutes.html nigel

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