17:58:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #shapes
17:58:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/25-shapes-irc
17:58:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs rdf-data-shapes
17:58:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #shapes
17:58:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SHAPES
17:58:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DATA_RDFWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
17:58:50 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Data Shapes Working Group Teleconference
17:58:50 <trackbot> Date: 25 June 2015
18:00:50 <aryman> aryman has joined #shapes
18:01:04 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #shapes
18:03:09 <hsolbrig> hsolbrig has joined #shapes
18:03:49 <Arnaud> chair: Arnaud
18:03:56 <Arnaud> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2015.06.25
18:05:27 <Labra> Labra has joined #shapes
18:06:56 <Arnaud> jose, are you joining the call?
18:07:36 <Labra> yes
18:08:38 <Arnaud> scribe: TallTed
18:08:39 <TallTed> scribenick: TallTed
<TallTed> topic: Admin
18:09:02 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Approve minutes of the 18 June Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/18-shapes-minutes.html
18:09:07 <aryman> _1
18:09:11 <aryman> +1
18:09:26 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Approve minutes of the 18 June Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2015/06/18-shapes-minutes.html
18:10:15 <TallTed> TOPIC: Disposal of Raised Issues
18:10:33 <TallTed> issue-69?
18:10:33 <trackbot> issue-69 -- status of rdf:langString values with xsd:string datatype -- raised
18:10:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/69
18:10:38 <TallTed> issue-70?
18:10:38 <trackbot> issue-70 -- special treatment of blank node types -- raised
18:10:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/70
18:10:41 <TallTed> issue-71?
18:10:41 <trackbot> issue-71 -- SHACL Endpoint Protocol -- raised
18:10:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/71
18:10:50 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open raised issues: ISSUE-69: status of rdf:langString values with xsd:string datatype, ISSUE-70: special treatment of blank node types, ISSUE-71: SHACL Endpoint Protocol
18:10:52 <pfps> pfps has joined #shapes
18:10:58 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open raised issues: ISSUE-69: status of rdf:langString values with xsd:string datatype, ISSUE-70: special treatment of blank node types, ISSUE-71: SHACL Endpoint Protocol
18:10:59 <hknublau> +1
18:11:00 <pfps> Apologies, I lost track of the time
18:11:13 <pfps> +1
18:11:20 <aryman> +1
18:11:23 <TallTed> +1
18:11:23 <ericP> +!
18:11:27 <ericP> +1
18:11:29 <kcoyle> +1
18:11:40 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open raised issues: ISSUE-69: status of rdf:langString values with xsd:string datatype, ISSUE-70: special treatment of blank node types, ISSUE-71: SHACL Endpoint Protocol
18:11:58 <TallTed> issue;72?
18:12:00 <Arnaud> issue-72
18:12:00 <trackbot> issue-72 -- Qualified Cardinality Restrictions -- raised
18:12:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/72
18:12:40 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Open ISSUE-72: Qualified Cardinality Restrictions
18:12:41 <aryman> +1
18:12:41 <ericP> +1
18:12:43 <TallTed> {1}
18:12:44 <pfps> q+
18:12:45 <TallTed> +1
18:12:46 <kcoyle> +1
18:12:50 <hknublau> +1
18:12:51 <hsolbrig> +1
18:13:05 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:13:39 <Labra> +1
18:14:39 <TallTed> pfps: when did we agree that Core SHACL would fully handle ShEx?
18:15:18 <TallTed> ericP: that's roughly how I remember things...
18:16:12 <TallTed> q+
18:16:52 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
18:16:55 <pfps> I don't remember an agreement that the core would cover ShEx.
18:18:04 <TallTed> [chatter about [citation needed] ... issue text being edited]
18:19:12 <pfps> I'm also not sure that QCRs are in ShEx.
18:20:08 <pfps> +1 with the part before 1) striken
18:20:09 <aryman> +1
18:20:11 <TallTed> +1
18:20:18 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Open ISSUE-72: Qualified Cardinality Restrictions
18:20:48 <TallTed> topic: ISSUE-1: What inferencing can or must be used?
18:21:39 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL should include a property sh:sparqlEntailment that can  be used to specify a required inferencing level for each SPARQL query,  as described in http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#sparql-entailment, per Holger's email
18:22:21 <aryman> q+
18:22:26 <pfps> q+ to strike the SPARQL part
18:22:26 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:22:43 <hknublau> +q
18:22:53 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:22:53 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to strike the SPARQL part
18:23:07 <aryman> suggest just sh:entailment
18:23:12 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:23:21 <TallTed> aryman: SPARQL defines a number of URIs for entailment, but the concept of entailment is not tied to SPARQL, so just strike SPARQL from the proposal and it should work...
18:23:24 <TallTed> pfps: concurs
18:23:49 <Arnaud> darn, my call dropped
18:24:01 <aryman> q+
18:24:12 <pfps> q+
18:24:29 <TallTed> hknublau: I think entailment needs to be tied to the language in play, using a Javascript extension may not need/want entailment while using a SPARQL extension may
18:24:34 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:25:09 <TallTed> aryman: valid point; application (or not) of entailment is related to how a query is phrased...
18:25:28 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:25:48 <TallTed> aryman: one property should be sufficient, with a way to tie the given entailment to a given extension/query/subquery
18:25:55 <TallTed> pfps: concurs
18:26:17 <kcoyle> q+
18:26:18 <aryman> q+
18:26:22 <TallTed> hknublau: I don't see how this would be made to work...
18:26:27 <pfps> In my view the basic idea is what inference is going to happen in the background, i.e., what the execution engine doesn't have to do.
18:26:58 <pfps> q+
18:27:08 <kcoyle> q+
18:27:23 <Arnaud> ack kcoyle
18:28:30 <TallTed> kcoyle: I see two entirely different points of view.  1 - SHACL expresses requirements that processor must satisfy ; 2 - SHACL says how those requirements will be satisfied
18:28:39 <aryman> we need to introduce one node per implementation of the extension, attach the query string and the entailment as properties to that node
18:28:48 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:29:23 <hknublau> That’s messing up the syntax.
18:29:27 <ericP> q?
18:29:42 <ericP> ack next
18:30:23 <hknublau> Sure, JS engines may also rely on entailment.
18:30:43 <TallTed> pfps: I see no reason that Javascript couldn't apply the same (SPARQL) entailment as SPARQL
18:31:07 <pfps> q+ to ask about the core as well
18:31:21 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:31:21 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to ask about the core as well
18:31:46 <hknublau> +q
18:31:59 <TallTed> pfps: the other thing about making this SPARQL-specific is it seems to be external to core
18:32:00 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:32:58 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL should include a property sh:entailment that can  be used to specify a required inferencing level
18:33:12 <kcoyle> +1
18:33:17 <pfps> +1
18:33:18 <TallTed> hknublau: design is that sparqlEntailment is attached to something (shape or ...), so it's external to core anyway
18:33:20 <hsolbrig> +1
18:33:21 <aryman> +1
18:33:24 <Labra> 0
18:33:35 <pfps> +1 assuming that the property is global; -1 if local
18:34:18 <aryman> q+
18:34:23 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:34:34 <TallTed> hknublau: fine to take it as argument to engine, and if it can't be handled, then fatal error...
18:34:53 <hknublau> +q
18:34:58 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:35:00 <TallTed> aryman: it seems it has to be tied to the template
18:35:21 <TallTed> s/something (shape or ...)/something (shape or query)/
18:36:02 <pfps> Is there any SPARQL implementation that could support a local entailment regime?
18:36:58 <TallTed> hknublau: implemented a prototype that handled this...
18:37:17 <aryman> q+
18:37:32 <TallTed> ... it does carry a performance penalty
18:37:35 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:37:50 <TallTed> ... basically forward chaining into a temporary graph
18:38:44 <TallTed> aryman: what about a template designed with some assumption of entailment, which template gets reused without knowing about that assumption.  how can the entailment be attached to the template
18:38:53 <pfps> I think that template reuse is a minor concern here.
18:39:53 <hknublau> +q
18:40:13 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:40:42 <aryman> I assume a global property would be on the shape
18:40:49 <pfps> I thought that the proposal on the floor was the global one.
18:40:59 <TallTed> hknublau: I'd like to see pfps's formulated proposal, including where it would be attached -- shape, graph, etc.
18:41:04 <aryman> q+
18:41:24 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:41:31 <TallTed> Arnaud: is it controlling?  condition for execution?  something else?
18:41:31 <pfps> Either as an argument to the engine or something in the control graph.
18:41:43 <pfps> q+
18:41:48 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL should include a global property sh:sentailment attached to a shape that can  be used to specify a required inferencing level
18:41:50 <TallTed> aryman: let's pick simplest first step: global property attached to the shape
18:42:00 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:42:24 <aryman> q+
18:42:36 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:42:37 <TallTed> pfps: there seems to be a disconnect here.  property on shape is a local property.  global property would apply to entire control graph, or be argument to the engine...
18:42:59 <hknublau> +q
18:45:04 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:45:45 <TallTed> [discussion of some details]
18:46:38 <pfps> the idea is to have a property on the shape graph itself, using an identifier for the graph as the subject
18:47:25 <hknublau> Proposal: SHACL includes a proerty sh:entailment that can be set on the shapes graph to ensure that a certain entailment regime is activated on the dataset.
18:47:48 <aryman> +1
18:47:51 <hknublau> +1
18:47:53 <TallTed> +1
18:47:57 <pfps> +1
18:47:57 <hsolbrig> +1
18:48:00 <Labra> +0.5
18:48:00 <ericP> 0
18:48:01 <kcoyle> +1
18:48:18 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: SHACL includes a proerty sh:entailment that can be set on the shapes graph to ensure that a certain entailment regime is activated on the dataset.
18:48:46 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: sh:valueType must also match subclasses, with its SPARQL implementation using rdfs:subClassOf* as described in http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#sparql-AbstractValueTypePropertyConstraint
18:48:50 <aryman> q+
18:48:52 <TallTed> Arnaud: continuing with hknublau's proposal on ISSUE-1...
18:49:05 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:49:29 <pfps> q+ to say that this might be preempted by the previous resolution
18:49:45 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:49:45 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to say that this might be preempted by the previous resolution
18:50:04 <aryman> q+
18:50:45 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:51:31 <pfps> I feel that this half-way entailment is not something that should be in SHACL.
18:51:54 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: sh:valueClass must also match subclasses, with its SPARQL implementation using rdfs:subClassOf* as described in http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#sparql-AbstractValueTypePropertyConstraint
18:51:56 <TallTed> aryman: pragmatically we know that entailment is supported differently and incompletely, so this may serve users who don't need a full regime but do need this part...
18:52:02 <hknublau> +1
18:52:05 <aryman> +1
18:52:08 <TallTed> +1
18:52:14 <pfps> -0.5
18:52:18 <kcoyle> +1
18:52:25 <ericP> 0
18:52:37 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: sh:valueClass must also match subclasses, with its SPARQL implementation using rdfs:subClassOf* as described in http://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/#sparql-AbstractValueTypePropertyConstraint
18:52:37 <Labra> 0
18:52:58 <TallTed> Arnaud: continuing...
18:52:58 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL shall include another property sh:directValueType that  only matches the directly asserted types (for OSLC use case), per Holger's email
18:53:03 <aryman> q+
18:53:21 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:54:01 <pfps> q+ to ask what "directly asserted types" means
18:54:15 <TallTed> aryman: restates his email comment... to change sh:directValueType to sh:valueType to match OSLC
18:54:19 <aryman> prefer to use sh:valueType
18:54:25 <Arnaud> ack pfps
18:54:25 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to ask what "directly asserted types" means
18:54:40 <aryman> q+
18:54:54 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:55:00 <TallTed> pfps: does "directly asserted" mean "what was typed by a monkey when the data was entered", "what went into the triple store", "what the triple store is serving up"?
18:55:07 <TallTed> aryman: it's a triple in the graph
18:55:53 <TallTed> pfps: so the result of any entailment...  so "directly asserted" seems a misnomer
18:55:55 <aryman> should say it matches ?focusNode ref:type ?type
18:56:09 <aryman> s/ref/rdf/
18:56:21 <hknublau> +q
18:56:30 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
18:57:50 <TallTed> hknublau: valueType is also used in SPIN, with different meaning, so a different term should be used here for OSLC concerns
18:58:05 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL shall include another property sh:directValueType that matches ?focusNode ref:type ?type (for OSLC use case)
18:58:10 <aryman> q+
18:58:26 <Arnaud> ack aryman
18:58:32 <pfps> s/ref/rdf/
18:58:35 <hknublau> Or: valueRDFType
18:58:41 <TallTed> pfps: "direct" is only OK if we add a paragraph to make explicit that this is post-entailment
19:00:07 <hknublau> +1 to sh:directValueType
19:00:12 <ericP> prposed "ar_dee_eff_colon_type"
19:00:34 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL shall include another property sh:directValueType that matches ?focusNode rdf:type ?type (for OSLC use case)
19:00:39 <aryman> +1
19:00:41 <hknublau> +1
19:00:50 <TallTed> +1
19:00:52 <hknublau> lol
19:00:56 <hsolbrig> +1
19:01:04 <kcoyle> +1 and I like Ted's suggestion
19:01:23 <Labra> +1 I would prefer valueType
19:01:43 <ericP> +1
19:01:45 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: SHACL shall include another property sh:directValueType that matches ?focusNode rdf:type ?type (for OSLC use case)
19:02:00 <TallTed> Arnaud: on to #4 of 5...
19:02:08 <Arnaud>  PROPOSED: sh:scopeClass must also include instances of subclasses, with its SPARQL implementation using rdfs:subClassOf*
19:02:13 <aryman> +1
19:02:15 <hknublau> +1
19:02:28 <TallTed> +1
19:02:43 <pfps> q+
19:02:49 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:03:36 <aryman> q+
19:03:40 <TallTed> pfps: I don't think this is a correct statement... what happens in other [non-SPARQL, e.g., Javascript] implementations?  do they do real subClass?
19:03:53 <Arnaud> ack aryman
19:04:37 <aryman> the path is rdf:type/rdfs:subClassOf*
19:04:45 <TallTed> aryman: this is the same as we just talked about for sh:valueClass
19:05:10 <TallTed> pfps: yes, and this comment applies to that as well...  SPARQL uses subClassOf*, but other implementations do what?
19:05:56 <TallTed> ... both should be rewritten to remove SPARQL specificity
19:06:09 <hknublau> +q
19:06:47 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:08:32 <pfps> PROPOSED: sh:scopeClass must also include nodes with an rdf:type link to nodes connected to the class via the transitive closure of rdfs:subClassOf
19:08:47 <aryman> +1
19:08:53 <hknublau> +1
19:09:00 <hsolbrig> +1
19:09:04 <TallTed> +1
19:09:07 <pfps> -0.5
19:09:07 <Labra> 0
19:09:17 <kcoyle> +1
19:09:22 <ericP> 0
19:09:31 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: sh:scopeClass must also include nodes with an rdf:type link to nodes connected to the class via the transitive closure of rdfs:subClassOf
19:11:30 <TallTed> PROPOSED: (revising earlier resolution) sh:valueClass must also include nodes with an rdf:type link to nodes connected to the class via the transitive closure of rdfs:subClassOf
19:11:36 <pfps> PROPOSED: sh:valueClass must also match subclasses, i.e., nodes with a type that is an rdfs:subClassOf* of the class
19:11:59 <Arnaud> s/PROPOSED/nevermind/
19:12:09 <pfps> -0.5
19:12:10 <TallTed> +1
19:12:15 <kcoyle> +1
19:12:20 <aryman> +1
19:12:25 <hknublau> +1
19:12:26 <hsolbrig> +1
19:12:30 <Labra> 0
19:12:37 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: (revising earlier resolution) sh:valueClass must also include nodes with an rdf:type link to nodes connected to the class via the transitive closure of rdfs:subClassOf
19:12:50 <Arnaud>  PROPOSED: SHACL shall include a high-level mechanism to express the scope of direct instances
19:12:59 <aryman> q+
19:13:04 <Arnaud> ack aryman
19:13:25 <TallTed> aryman: I don't understand this one...  what is a "direct instance"?
19:13:33 <pfps> I don't understand what this is for.
19:14:43 <pfps> So this is sh:scopeDirectType
19:15:05 <aryman> sh:directScopeType
19:15:05 <TallTed> hknublau: this is to apply a constraint only to direct members of a Class, not members of its subClasses
19:15:18 <aryman> like sh:directValueType
19:15:27 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL shall include a high-level mechanism, a la sh:scopeDirectType, to express the scope of direct instances
19:15:46 <hknublau> -1
19:15:49 <hknublau> +q
19:16:09 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:16:46 <pfps> -0.5
19:17:01 <TallTed> hknublau: this is a rare case, so I don't think it needs be implemented as core level element
19:17:19 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: SHACL shall include a high-level mechanism, functionally equivalent to what would be called sh:directScopeType, to express the scope of direct instances
19:17:30 <hknublau> +1
19:17:41 <aryman> +1
19:17:45 <pfps> q+
19:17:49 <TallTed> +1
19:17:50 <kcoyle> +1
19:17:50 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:18:30 <TallTed> q+
19:18:40 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
19:19:02 <hknublau> +q
19:19:06 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:19:20 <pfps> Every language construct has its costs aside from the implementation code.
19:20:37 <Labra> 0
19:20:48 <pfps> q+
19:20:53 <Arnaud> ack pfps
19:22:13 <pfps> Would a scoping construct like "given a property and object scope on nodes where there is a <n,property,object> triple"
19:22:21 <pfps> ... satisfy this?
19:22:43 <pfps> -0.5
19:22:54 <hknublau> +q
19:23:09 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:23:45 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: SHACL shall include a high-level mechanism, functionally equivalent to what would be called sh:directScopeType, to express the scope of direct instances
19:24:10 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-1, based on previous resolutions
19:24:14 <hknublau> +1
19:24:16 <aryman> +1
19:24:17 <TallTed> +1
19:24:19 <Labra> +1
19:24:20 <pfps> +1
19:24:21 <kcoyle> +1
19:24:36 <Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-1, based on previous resolutions
19:25:14 <TallTed> topic: ISSUE-47: Can SPARQL-based constraints access the shape graph, and how?
19:25:21 <TallTed> issue-47?
19:25:21 <trackbot> issue-47 -- Can SPARQL-based constraints access the shape graph, and how? -- open
19:25:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/track/issues/47
19:25:23 <hknublau> +q
19:26:59 <Arnaud> ack hknublau
19:31:25 <Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting
<Arnaud> present: Arnaud, hknublau, aryman, TallTed, Labra, kcoyle, pfps, ericP, hsolbrig
19:31:25 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:31:25 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
19:31:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:31:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/25-shapes-minutes.html trackbot
19:31:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:31:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items