IRC log of aria on 2015-06-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:29:57 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:29:57 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/25-aria-irc
16:29:59 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:30:01 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:30:01 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM scheduled to start now
16:30:02 [trackbot]: Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:30:02 [trackbot]: Date: 25 June 2015
16:30:07 [richardschwerdtfeger]: chair: Rich
16:30:20 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:30:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]: RRSAgent, make log public
16:32:14 [janina]: present+ janina
16:32:21 [clown]: present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:32:33 [richardschwerdtfeger]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0168.html
16:33:16 [joanie]: present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
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16:38:42 [clown]: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#attrs_widgets
16:39:44 [clown]: "This section contains attributes specific to common user interface elements found on GUI"
16:39:55 [jamesn]: scribe: jamesn
16:40:06 [jamesn]: agenda?
16:40:14 [jamesn]: TOPIC: aria-describedat
16:40:44 [jamesn]: RS: have told the DPUB folks that by mid August need something
16:41:05 [jamesn]: JS: lets see if they can make a Thursday
16:41:14 [joanie]: q+ To suggest we schedule something so James Craig can be present
16:41:23 [bgaraventa1979]: bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:41:44 [jamesn]: JS: they understand they need to come on this meeting to discuss. Also will send a formal mail about describedat to this group in the next week
16:41:55 [bgaraventa1979]: present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:41:59 [jamesn]: RS: would like to make 1 point they talked about on the call
16:42:29 [jamesn]: RS: 1 think they said and must be cogniscent of this. Know how hard it is to get product teams to do a11y.
16:42:57 [jamesn]: RS: they said if we pull this now could be a problem. They have p[eoples attention at the moment
16:43:08 [jamesn]: RS: we have to think about the strategy
16:43:44 [jamesn]: JS: notes that they are aware of annotations but that is not a rewality yet
16:43:52 [jamesn]: JS: they are looking for something in the next several months
16:44:13 [jamesn]: JS: the fact that it can pertain to any element makes it more useful
16:44:29 [jamesn]: ack joanie
16:44:29 [Zakim]: joanie, you wanted to suggest we schedule something so James Craig can be present
16:47:50 [jamesn]: RS: hoping will get something set up soon
16:47:57 [jamesn]: TOPIC: keyboard shortcuts
16:48:32 [jamesn]: RS: for some reason people getting confused with accesskey. (1) it is for activation. (2) as a spec we don't define user agent behaviour
16:48:56 [jamesn]: RS: if the UA host language wants to do more with it then they can but we don't require them to do it
16:49:27 [jamesn]: RS: accesskey module has sat for 6 years. Can't say need to synchornize with accesskey
16:49:51 [jamesn]: RS: other than getting vocab correct don't see how this should be confused with accesskey
16:52:30 [jamesn]: JN: like the keyboardshortcuts proposal. It tries to allow an author to state what is happening today programiatically. It is not trying to solve the bigger issue of how to specify shortcuts across platforms etc.
16:52:53 [jamesn]: TOPIC: discuss a freeze date for the heartbeat draft
16:53:02 [jamesn]: RS: would like to get it out
16:53:20 [jamesn]: RS: what needs to be merged
16:53:30 [jamesn]: JD: dont think i haver any not merged stuff
16:53:54 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Action-1493?
16:53:54 [trackbot]: Action-1493 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for required properties -- due 2014-10-06 -- OPEN
16:53:54 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1493
16:53:56 [jamesn]: clown: one of mine i want to get in
16:54:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Action-1606?
16:54:25 [trackbot]: Action-1606 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Create proposal to modify aria-valuemin, aria-valuemax, and aria-valuenow to have reasonable default values when they are missing, similar to HTML5 spec on <input type="range"> -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
16:54:26 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1606
16:55:08 [jamesn]: JG: how would shortcut keys be mapped to accessibility APIs
16:55:20 [jamesn]: JD: ATK has an action interface
16:55:33 [jamesn]: JD: if IA2 follows that there would be a way there
16:55:45 [jamesn]: JD: there is no such thing as a keyboard interface
16:55:59 [joanie]: https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkAction.html#atk-action-get-keybinding
16:57:06 [clown]: http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/_accessible_action_8idl.html
16:57:40 [joanie]: http://accessibility.linuxfoundation.org/a11yspecs/ia2/docs/html/interface_i_accessible_action.html
16:57:44 [jamesn]: JD: it is the same one
16:58:29 [jamesn]: RS: might need to clarify for JC some of the vocabulary in there
16:58:58 [jamesn]: RS: dont know anbout mac
16:59:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]: s/anabout/about/
16:59:49 [jamesn]: RS: one of the things JC was concerned about was the vocab. s/anbout/about/
17:00:02 [jamesn]: s/anbout/about/
17:00:18 [jamesn]: RS: freeze date
17:00:35 [jamesn]: RS: can you have 1606 ready for next thursday
17:00:44 [jamesn]: clown: ready now
17:01:24 [jamesn]: RS: lets see what else we need for a heartbeat and lets freeze it
17:01:33 [Stefan]: Stefan has joined #aria
17:01:39 [jamesn]: JD: strictly for this hearbeat freeze?
17:01:44 [jamesn]: RS: yes
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17:02:30 [jamesn]: MC: I was targetting the 14th so July 6 is fine
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17:05:07 [jamesn]: RS: trying to get 1.1 out of the door
17:05:13 [jamesn]: TOPIC: annotationsd
17:05:15 [clown]: issue-655
17:05:15 [trackbot]: issue-655 -- Consider creating annotations roles for comments, spell-check errors, etc -- open
17:05:15 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/655
17:05:25 [clown]: issue-670
17:05:25 [trackbot]: issue-670 -- Need to support remote annotation -- raised
17:05:25 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/670
17:05:36 [jamesn]: RS: the person who requested it has left MSFT. getting no response on questions
17:05:52 [jamesn]: RS: this is not under the scope of aria 1.1
17:06:07 [jamesn]: RS: could be better to look at it in the ARIA 2.0 timeframe
17:06:20 [jamesn]: RS: don't want to lose them but feel they should be ARIA 2.0
17:06:25 [jamesn]: JN: +1 to that.
17:06:39 [jongund]: JG: +1
17:06:47 [jamesn]: RS: status is that are waiting for a response from CS before can do anything
17:06:48 [joanie]: JD: +1
17:07:12 [jamesn]: RS: I would rather us deal with more serious issues like error handling
17:07:26 [jamesn]: clown: does errors belong in annotations?
17:07:48 [joanie]: q+ To explicitly state that annotations seems like it's meaty enough that we don't want to rush it
17:08:01 [jamesn]: RS: have a concern that this is a big problem. all forms have this issue today
17:08:23 [jamesn]: RS: there is also a remote annotation that is brought up
17:08:28 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
17:08:28 [jamesn]: ack joanie
17:08:30 [Zakim]: joanie, you wanted to explicitly state that annotations seems like it's meaty enough that we don't want to rush it
17:09:01 [jamesn]: RS: i feel the same way
17:09:12 [JF]: +1 to Jpoanie
17:09:22 [JF]: s/Jpoanie/Joanie
17:09:35 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Proposal: Move Office Suite Annotation Issues and Actions to ARIA 2.0 to provide more time to develop
17:09:37 [clown]: s/does errors belong/do error messages for invalid input belong/
17:10:17 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Rich: This would cover issues 655, 670, and actions 1455 1n 1454
17:10:34 [bgaraventa1979]: +1
17:10:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]: +1
17:10:40 [clown]: +1
17:10:41 [joanie]: +1
17:10:43 [jongund]: +1
17:10:43 [jamesn]: +1
17:10:48 [JF]: +1
17:10:48 [Stefan]: +1
17:11:13 [richardschwerdtfeger]: RESOLUTION: Move issues 655, 670, and Actions 1454 and 1455 to ARIA 2.0
17:12:29 [clown]: \o/
17:13:38 [jamesn]: TOPIC: ACTION-1591
17:13:42 [clown]: action-1591
17:13:42 [trackbot]: action-1591 -- Joanmarie Diggs to checkbox role doesn't list aria-readonly -- due 2015-03-04 -- OPEN
17:13:42 [trackbot]: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1591
17:14:01 [clown]: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/semantics.html#the-readonly-attribute
17:14:18 [jamesn]: clown: if you read the html5 spec on its readonly property. It lists that only text controls can be made readonly
17:14:54 [Stefan]: q+
17:14:54 [Stefan]: +q
17:15:32 [richardschwerdtfeger]: JN: One use case where, based on a role that someone has assigned, they don’t have the permissions to modify something but it is not disabled
17:15:55 [richardschwerdtfeger]: JN: Where they have disabled it is based on something you can do to enable it. Where you have aria-readonly it is based on a privilege
17:16:20 [joanie]: q+ To ask about focusable versus not
17:16:46 [richardschwerdtfeger]: JN: On a transactional flow where you have a sumary screen, you have a wizard, and you have a summary of what has been done but they are not disabled and they are read-only
17:17:08 [richardschwerdtfeger]: JS: Visually it is greyed out
17:17:29 [richardschwerdtfeger]: JD: Readonly controls are still focusable where disabled controls are not
17:17:30 [jamesn]: JD: if you can tab to a checkbox but not change its state then it is readonly
17:18:00 [Stefan]: -q
17:18:09 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Rich: I have seen controls where items are disabled but are focusable
17:18:12 [jamesn]: JD: if there is a use case. JN was describing conceptual reasons where something is changeable
17:18:27 [jamesn]: JD: screen readers have commands to move between different control types
17:18:30 [richardschwerdtfeger]: jD: If you press X in Orca you go to the next check box
17:18:58 [richardschwerdtfeger]: JD: If the checkbox is not something you can tab to you should skip it
17:19:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]: JS: you are on a summary page and you are about to submit but you can’t change them
17:21:10 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Rich: disabled items in menus are often in the navigation order but are marked disabled
17:21:13 [Stefan]: https://sapui5.hana.ondemand.com/sdk/test-resources/sap/ui/commons/demokit/CheckBox.html
17:21:24 [clown]: q?
17:21:36 [clown]: q+ to mention how VO handles disabled menu items.
17:22:09 [jamesn]: JD: what i am trying to suggest is that yes we do not to want to be the same as HTML. I would go further in that HTML has a bug...
17:22:16 [Stefan]: +q
17:22:22 [richardschwerdtfeger]: q?
17:22:23 [jamesn]: JD: I think it does make sense to allow focus to these things
17:22:27 [richardschwerdtfeger]: ack joanie
17:22:27 [Zakim]: joanie, you wanted to ask about focusable versus not
17:22:49 [jamesn]: clown: about menu item example. on the mac it skips disabled menu items. if you have VO turned on you can arrow to them
17:23:31 [Stefan]: https://sapui5.hana.ondemand.com/sdk/test-resources/sap/ui/commons/demokit/CheckBox.html
17:23:34 [clown]: ack me
17:23:34 [Zakim]: clown, you wanted to mention how VO handles disabled menu items.
17:23:39 [jamesn]: Stefan: we have other states for checkboxes too.
17:27:08 [jamesn]: JN: A disabled state indicates to the user that they can do something to enable it
17:27:32 [Stefan]: -q
17:27:41 [jamesn]: JN: a read-only checkbox indicates that the state it out of their immediate control
17:29:13 [jamesn]: BG: I don't see the point really. When something is disabled then i know I can't interact with it.
17:35:49 [jamesn]: JD: can imagine a case where there is a menu item where you can't change it
17:36:06 [jamesn]: JD: I agree with the notion that checkboxes should be able to be readonly or disabled
17:36:32 [jamesn]: JD: the text that Joseph pasted from the HTML spec is why we need to explain it
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17:37:14 [jamesn]: RS: a checkbox in a menu I can see read-only. I don't think it is terrible that it inherits
17:37:46 [jamesn]: RS: if we are ok with the inheritance I dont think it is terrible
17:37:59 [jamesn]: clown: doesn't inherit into treeitem
17:40:25 [richardschwerdtfeger]: http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#treeitem
17:40:41 [clown]: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#option
17:45:58 [jamesn]: JN: need radio buttons too
17:46:07 [jamesn]: JD: think they inherit from checkboxes
17:46:24 [jamesn]: JD: switch is fine. Think it is a silly UI
17:46:29 [jamesn]: JN: +1 :)
17:46:55 [clown]: it goes checkbox -> radio, menumitemcheckbox, switch.
17:47:20 [clown]: and menuitemcheckbox -> menuitemradio
17:48:37 [richardschwerdtfeger]: Proposal: Add aria-readonly to roles checkbox wich will inherit into, radio, menuitemradio, menuitemcheckbox, and switch
17:48:48 [richardschwerdtfeger]: s/wich/which/
17:49:49 [JF]: Q+ to ask about adding it to fieldset?
17:50:16 [JF]: ack JF
17:50:16 [Zakim]: JF, you wanted to ask about adding it to fieldset?
17:50:29 [jamesn]: JF: my experience that generally in a fieldset.... (or group)
17:51:01 [jamesn]: RS: do people want to take it off radio?
17:51:38 [jamesn]: JD: we have this right now with the mixed state where switch and radio don't inherit checked=mixed
17:51:49 [jamesn]: JD: have ugly notes
17:52:09 [jamesn]: JD: are you ok with the situation right now where mixed is inherited by radio
17:52:50 [jamesn]: I see Stefan has a readonly radio button https://sapui5.hana.ondemand.com/sdk/#test-resources/sap/ui/commons/demokit/RadioButton.html
17:54:43 [jamesn]: JD: I will come up with a proposal
17:56:36 [jamesn]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:56:36 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/25-aria-minutes.html jamesn
17:57:06 [jamesn]: present+ James_Nurthen
17:57:10 [joanie]: Propsal: aria-readonly should apply to checkbox, check menu item, switch, and radio menu item. It should not apply to radio. This will require a corresponding taxonomy change.
17:57:16 [jamesn]: present+ Stefan
17:57:31 [jamesn]: present+ JonGund
17:57:42 [jamesn]: present+ JF
17:57:52 [jamesn]: rrsagent, make minutes
17:57:52 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/25-aria-minutes.html jamesn
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