14:44:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #annotation
14:44:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-irc
14:44:47 <azaroth> Present+ Rob_Sanderson
14:45:28 <azaroth> Regrets Ray_Denenberg, Jacob_Jett
14:47:27 <fjh> fjh has joined #annotation
14:48:07 <fjh> rrsgagent, generate minutes
14:48:07 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:48:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-minutes.html fjh
14:48:28 <fjh> trackbot, start telecon
14:48:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:48:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2666
14:48:32 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_(ANNO)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference
14:48:33 <trackbot> Date: 24 June 2015
14:48:50 <fjh> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Jun/0223.html
14:49:12 <fjh> Chair: Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
14:49:19 <fjh> Present+ Frederick_Hirsch, Rob_Sanderson
14:49:38 <azaroth> Regrets: Ray_Denenberg, Jacob_Jett
14:53:41 <fjh> Regrets+ Bill_Kasdorf
14:53:45 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:53:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-minutes.html fjh
14:54:47 <fjh> s/rrsgagent, generate minutes//
14:54:55 <fjh> s/Regrets Ray_Denenberg, Jacob_Jett//
14:58:27 <Matt_Haas> Matt_Haas has joined #annotation
14:59:20 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #annotation
14:59:53 <Matt_Haas> Present+ Matt_Haas
15:00:02 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
15:00:21 <Janina_> Janina_ has joined #annotation
15:00:31 <ivan> Present+ Ivan_Herman
15:01:13 <shepazu> present+ shepazu
15:01:27 <Janina_> Present+ Janina_Sarol
15:01:38 <PaoloCiccarese> PaoloCiccarese has joined #annotation
15:02:52 <fjh> Present+ Chris_Burk
15:03:11 <shepazu> s/Chris_Burk/Chris_Birk/
15:04:06 <plh> plh has joined #annotation
15:04:11 <plh> Present+ Plh
15:04:19 <takeshi> takeshi has joined #annotation
15:04:56 <fjh> zakim, pick a victim
15:04:56 <Zakim> sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:24 <bjdmeest> scribenick: bjdmeest
15:05:32 <fjh> Topic: Agenda Review, Scribe Selection, Announcements
15:05:36 <fjh> no announcement
15:05:48 <fjh> Topic: Minutes Approval
15:05:58 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 17 June approved, http://www.w3.org/2015/06/17-annotation-minutes.html
15:06:03 <bjdmeest> RESOLUTION: Minutes from 17 June approved, http://www.w3.org/2015/06/17-annotation-minutes.html
15:06:06 <plh> http://testthewebforward.org/docs/
15:06:11 <fjh> Topic: Testing
15:06:27 <bjdmeest> plh: we have done testing for years
15:06:37 <bjdmeest> ... 3 years ago, we started to harmonize
15:06:46 <bjdmeest> ... there is an open source project now
15:07:00 <PaoloCiccarese> Present+ Paolo_Ciccarese
15:07:05 <davis_salisbury> davis_salisbury has joined #annotation
15:07:05 <bjdmeest> ... where the WG can foster their tests
15:07:20 <bjdmeest> ... primary objective: testing web browsers
15:07:26 <davis_salisbury> present+ davis_salisbury
15:07:39 <bjdmeest> ... docs are available (writing, running, reviewing tests)
15:07:48 <plh> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/
15:07:55 <bjdmeest> ... it is organized around git repos
15:08:11 <bjdmeest> ... from HTML to Web Driver etc. huge lib available
15:08:27 <bjdmeest> ... we have a dedicated system to review tests
15:08:39 <bjdmeest> ... tests are run as much as possible automatically
15:09:26 <fjh> s/no announcement/no announcements/
15:09:32 <bjdmeest> ... manual tests exist as well (e.g. pointer events), but we prioritize automatic testing
15:09:45 <bjdmeest> ... goal is to test the web
15:10:15 <tbdinesh> tbdinesh has joined #annotation
15:10:34 <fjh> Present+ Philippe_Le_Hegaret
15:10:38 <bjdmeest> ... e.g, mozilla executes some of the provided tests automatically on every commit
15:10:57 <bjdmeest> ... explorer as well, chrome is following, apple is next
15:11:09 <bjdmeest> ... Tooling is all about Python
15:11:43 <fjh> s/about/written in/
15:11:54 <bjdmeest> ... an auto pilot (in python) executes all tests sequentially
15:12:10 <fjh> q?
15:12:12 <azaroth> q+
15:12:22 <fjh> ack azaroth
15:12:48 <bjdmeest> azaroth: [about ontologies and data models] is there any past experience about testing those?
15:13:00 <bjdmeest> plh: yes, but not in a cohesive way
15:13:24 <tbdinesh> shepazu: yes. i know suzan
15:13:37 <bjdmeest> ... there has been some work about metadata, but there is a lot more variety of tools to use for testing
15:13:44 <fjh> s/shepazu: yes. i know suzan//
15:13:47 <bjdmeest> ... e.g., LDP group used JAVA to write their own testing tools
15:14:00 <ivan> q+
15:14:03 <bjdmeest> azaroth: other relevant WG with experience?
15:14:13 <fjh> ack ivan
15:14:13 <bjdmeest> ... in the world of datamodel
15:14:26 <bjdmeest> ivan: we should talk to gregg kellog
15:14:50 <bjdmeest> ... he did stuff for RDFa, RDF, JSON-LD, CVS on the Web
15:15:04 <fjh> q?
15:15:06 <shepazu> q+
15:15:06 <bjdmeest> ... Gregg has some great tools, i.e., to generate reports
15:15:09 <ivan> s/kellog/kellogg/
15:15:13 <fjh> ack shepazu
15:15:43 <bjdmeest> shepazu: we should try to integrate with the currently available testing framework
15:15:58 <bjdmeest> ... that is beneficial for us and other WG
15:16:11 <bjdmeest> ... tighter cohesion between specs
15:16:39 <bjdmeest> ... this WG has tests for an Ontology and protocol
15:16:54 <bjdmeest> ... that has precedence (XHR testing)
15:17:01 <bjdmeest> ... and also client tests
15:17:01 <azaroth> (And being based on LDP currently means we can inherit many of their existing tests)
15:17:06 <fjh> q?
15:17:06 <bjdmeest> ... so we have a variety of tests
15:17:14 <fjh> q?
15:17:14 <bjdmeest> ...  cohesive way of testing would be beneficial
15:17:39 <bjdmeest> plh: I had a look at the LDP testing tools
15:18:03 <bjdmeest> ... I would like to see how that fits our testing plan
15:18:10 <plh> q+
15:18:11 <shepazu> q+
15:18:12 <fjh> s/pkh/chris_birk/
15:18:28 <fjh> ack plh
15:18:38 <fjh> s/plh/chris_birk/
15:18:41 <tbdinesh> Present+ TB_Dinesh
15:18:46 <Kyrce> Kyrce has joined #annotation
15:19:01 <fjh> q?
15:19:16 <fjh> q+
15:19:18 <bjdmeest> plh: web platform testing is very active
15:19:35 <fjh> ack shepazu
15:20:10 <bjdmeest> shepazu: we have a working test suite for LDP, to be re-used
15:20:20 <azaroth> q+
15:20:29 <bjdmeest> ... however, using the tools on webplatformtesting would be more robust
15:20:34 <fjh> +1 to doug
15:20:53 <fjh> +1 to contacting Gregg Kellogg
15:21:01 <fjh> q?
15:21:02 <fjh> ack fjh
15:21:03 <bjdmeest> ... so, should we extend the LDP tests, or should we use the webplatformtesting framework?
15:21:17 <bjdmeest> ... the latter would mean converting from JAVA to Python
15:21:18 <fjh> ack azaroth
15:21:57 <fjh> action: azaroth to discuss testing and use of Java vs Python on LDP call
15:21:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Discuss testing and use of java vs python on ldp call [on Robert Sanderson - due 2015-07-01].
15:22:03 <bjdmeest> azaroth: I will discuss with LDP why they did the JAVA/own testing approach
15:22:08 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
15:22:45 <plh> q+
15:22:51 <fjh> ack PaoloCiccarese
15:23:11 <azaroth> q+
15:23:14 <fjh> +1 to asking LDP about doing/helping with python appraoch
15:23:17 <azaroth> q-
15:23:18 <fjh> ack plh
15:23:22 <bjdmeest> PaoloCiccarese: maybe they are interested in helping making the change from JAVA to Python?
15:23:26 <fjh> q?
15:24:01 <bjdmeest> plh: a lot of the tooling is at most 1,5 year old
15:24:18 <bjdmeest> ... LDP might starting making their tools before
15:24:50 <fjh> q?
15:24:51 <bjdmeest> ... problem with making your own tests is that they tend to be forgotten
15:25:06 <shepazu> q+
15:25:09 <fjh> ack shepazu
15:25:48 <bjdmeest> shepazu: [about the infrastructure] you can do proxies, bugtesting, security
15:25:58 <fjh> q?
15:25:59 <bjdmeest> ... they have a client publishing to multiple services
15:26:06 <bjdmeest> ... it can do a lot
15:26:48 <takeshi> Present+ Takeshi_Kanai
15:27:10 <bjdmeest> fjh: [talking about when to talk to Gregg]
15:27:17 <bjdmeest> ivan: Gregg's tools are in Ruby
15:27:26 <bjdmeest> ... it's a whole environment
15:27:40 <bjdmeest> ... what kind of tests would we do?
15:27:52 <azaroth> +1 to coming up with a set of types of test first
15:28:10 <fjh> +1 to having proposal before asking Gregg, good to know Ivan has expertise here
15:28:30 <fjh> q?
15:28:35 <bjdmeest> ... the same holds for talking to LDP: we need an idea of what kind of tests are needed
15:28:56 <bjdmeest> shepazu: the question was more: what is the testing methodology for ontology tests?
15:29:07 <bjdmeest> ivan: Gregg's tools do not handle ontology tests
15:29:15 <fjh> we had a misunderstanding here, good to be discussing this now
15:29:36 <fjh> plh, much thanks for joining our call and giving a useful overview
15:29:40 <bjdmeest> shepazu: so we should talk to someone with expertise with ontology/datamodel testing
15:29:53 <azaroth> q+
15:29:56 <PaoloCiccarese> q+
15:30:16 <fjh> ack azaroth
15:30:59 <bjdmeest> azaroth: Anna Görber put up a validator to validate the Open Annotation data model
15:31:15 <bjdmeest> ... based on rdf'ing the data model, and run SPARQL queries
15:31:23 <fjh> ack PaoloCiccarese
15:31:23 <bjdmeest> ... maybe we can transform that into python?
15:31:30 <shepazu> s/Görber/Gerber/
15:31:58 <bjdmeest> PaoloCiccarese: I also used Anna's queries, easily to be integrated into any language with a lib that supports SPARQL
15:32:07 <bjdmeest> ... but what about the RDF-shapes group?
15:32:48 <fjh> q?
15:33:08 <fjh> Topic: Protocol
15:33:16 <fjh> CfC to publish FPWD concludes tomorrow, https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Jun/0133.html
15:33:27 <bjdmeest> fjh: we had a CfC for a FPWD
15:33:30 <plh> [Plh departed]
15:33:35 <bjdmeest> ... about protocol, no concerns yet
15:33:36 <plh> plh has left #annotation
15:34:01 <bjdmeest> ... we can move this forward, doug?
15:34:04 <bjdmeest> shepazu: yes
15:34:10 <fjh> thanks Doug!
15:34:15 <shepazu> agenda+ Social Web report
15:34:22 <fjh> http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/
15:34:24 <azaroth> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues
15:34:24 <KevinMarks> re tests - microformats have a test suite and platfromt hat tests parsers in multiple languages
15:34:25 <bjdmeest> azaroth: [about the protocol draft issues]
15:34:48 <bjdmeest> ... going through the github issues...
15:34:51 <KevinMarks> https://github.com/microformats/tests
15:34:57 <azaroth> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/39
15:35:26 <bjdmeest> ... #39: right profile in content type for all answers
15:35:44 <KevinMarks> with a runner that calls parsers in multiple languages http://testrunner-47055.onmodulus.net/
15:35:45 <bjdmeest> ... in JSON-LD, you can add a profile parameter
15:35:55 <bjdmeest> ... that profile can be registered
15:36:19 <fjh> s/no concerns yet/no concerns yet, support noted. If no showstoppers CfC will succeed and we will publish FPWD/
15:36:47 <fjh> s/we can move this forward, doug/will you be able to prepare the publication draft and arrange publication, doug?/
15:37:08 <fjh> +1 to SHOULD as noted in issue comment thread
15:37:22 <bjdmeest> ... thought was: if we can give a particular profile, that should be recommended
15:37:55 <bjdmeest> ... so, a SHOULD in the protocol is proposed
15:38:12 <fjh> q?
15:38:19 <bjdmeest> ... [no objections from the attendees]
15:38:50 <bjdmeest> ... I will close the issues once the edits are made
15:38:57 <fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: resolve issue 39 with SHOULD per comments
15:39:37 <bjdmeest> RESOLUTION: resolve issue 39 with SHOULD per comments
15:39:51 <fjh> q+
15:40:23 <bjdmeest> shepazu: so we can go ahead when the CfC ends
15:40:31 <fjh> q?
15:40:32 <fjh> q-
15:40:51 <bjdmeest> ... if no edits are made this week, first publishing could be done next Tuesday
15:40:58 <fjh> note that changes discussed today will not be in FPWD but subsequent WD
15:41:25 <bjdmeest> azaroth: next issue: about adding changes vs LDP
15:41:28 <azaroth> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/38
15:41:31 <bjdmeest> ... #38
15:41:47 <bjdmeest> ... +1s in the comments
15:41:49 <shepazu> +1
15:41:52 <fjh> +1
15:42:00 <bjdmeest> ... any disagreement/comments?
15:42:01 <shepazu> q+
15:42:06 <azaroth> ack shepazu
15:42:06 <ivan> rrsagent, pointer?
15:42:06 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-irc#T15-42-06-1
15:42:51 <bjdmeest> shepazu: chris brought up an important aspect: we only need to test the changes vs LDP
15:43:23 <bjdmeest> ... it would be nice if we could structure the test suite as: this is the test suite for LDP, these are the extra tests for the Annotation protocol
15:43:34 <fjh> +1 to limit testing for what does beyond LDP testing, organizing document correspondingly
15:43:39 <azaroth> https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/37
15:43:46 <bjdmeest> ... so normative statements about the changes of LDP vs annotation protocol
15:43:51 <fjh> rrsagent, where am i?
15:43:51 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-irc#T15-43-51
15:44:43 <bjdmeest> azaroth: #37 [about supporting more than basic containers]
15:44:59 <bjdmeest> ... cannot be done at the moment
15:45:18 <fjh> q?
15:45:20 <fjh> q+
15:45:40 <bjdmeest> ... question is: do we want to allow more, and if so, how to be coherent about 'this is the default, for other requirements, use different containers'
15:45:53 <bjdmeest> ... spec could be more difficult to follow
15:45:57 <azaroth> ack fjh
15:46:10 <fjh> RESOLUTION: Add summary of normative requirements to protocol specification, clarifying those beyond LDP, to resolve issue 38
15:46:19 <fjh> q?
15:46:20 <bjdmeest> fjh: so about #38: we add normative requirements about changes from LDP?
15:46:44 <fjh> q+
15:46:50 <fjh> q-
15:46:52 <ivan> q+
15:46:56 <fjh> q+ to ask why containter type matters
15:47:03 <bjdmeest> azaroth: [about #37] POST message is the same for different containers
15:47:15 <azaroth> q?
15:47:22 <azaroth> ack ivan
15:47:29 <bjdmeest> ... the link headers define what kind of container is returned
15:48:06 <bjdmeest> ivan: what happens is that you get as response a similar structure as for a basic container, + optional extra information
15:48:27 <bjdmeest> ... client needs to do additional things if it wants to use that extra information
15:48:43 <bjdmeest> ... I suggest to postpone this issue, and talk to experts
15:49:00 <bjdmeest> azaroth: we use LDP internally all the time
15:49:27 <azaroth> q?
15:49:31 <azaroth> ack fjh
15:49:31 <Zakim> fjh, you wanted to ask why containter type matters
15:49:31 <bjdmeest> ... I can write something up [after FPWD]
15:50:10 <fjh> q?
15:50:39 <fjh> Topic: Social Web
15:51:21 <bjdmeest> shepazu: Social Web WG are interested in our protocol spec
15:51:35 <fjh> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2015Jun/0231.html
15:52:07 <bjdmeest> ... activity streams is much more similar to our data model than to being a transport layer
15:52:40 <bjdmeest> ... we should write something about the connection between activity streams and our data model
15:53:07 <bjdmeest> ... maybe activity streams can be used as serialization of annotation data model
15:53:29 <bjdmeest> ... James Snell is interested in working together on this, as well as looking into the annotation protocol spec
15:53:37 <fjh> q+ to ask about attendees
15:54:05 <bjdmeest> azaroth: let's keep discussions centered around the list
15:54:28 <bjdmeest> shepazu: you can ping him as well
15:54:46 <azaroth> q?
15:54:49 <azaroth> ack fjh
15:54:49 <Zakim> fjh, you wanted to ask about attendees
15:55:49 <bjdmeest> TOPIC: adjourn
15:56:19 <bjdmeest> [adjourning]
15:56:24 <bjdmeest> fjh: aob?
15:57:13 <ivan> tracker, end telcon
15:57:28 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
15:57:28 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:57:28 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:57:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:57:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-minutes.html trackbot
15:57:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:57:37 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-actions.rdf :
15:57:37 <RRSAgent> ACTION: azaroth to discuss testing and use of Java vs Python on LDP call [1]
15:57:37 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/06/24-annotation-irc#T15-21-57