17:05:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:05:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-aria-apg-irc
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17:05:18 <Matt> Matt has joined #aria-apg
17:05:23 <jamesn> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices TF
17:05:27 <jamesn> ls
17:05:40 <jamesn> rrsagent, make log world
17:05:58 <jamesn> present+ AnnAbbott
17:06:07 <jamesn> present+ JonGund
17:06:19 <jamesn> present+ JamesNurthen
17:06:22 <Matt> present+ matt_king
17:06:29 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
17:06:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-aria-apg-minutes.html jamesn
17:08:21 <Birkir> Birkir has joined #aria-apg
17:08:54 <Birkir> Hey guys .. did not get an agenda for today so wasn't sure if meeting would go ahead .. can join call in a few minutes.
17:09:29 <annabbott> Birkir: no agenda was sent out for today's call
17:10:55 <jamesn> Agenda+ TreeView
17:11:55 <jamesn> http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#TreeView
17:14:04 <jongund> JN: I will file bugs as we go along
17:16:11 <jongund> JN: The tree node should be a an example of a tree
17:16:31 <jongund> JN: Can I just make editorial changes, I think this issue is purely editorial
17:17:13 <jongund> JG: Must a tree view "must" have a visual indicator?
17:17:35 <jongund> MK: We don't use "must", but we do use "should"
17:19:49 <jongund> JN: Is the APG for writing a widget or determiing what widget I should use
17:21:10 <jongund> AA: If they have a sub itme then it is open
17:21:20 <jongund> MK: Can you still see the parent menu
17:21:37 <jongund> JN: Depends on the implementation, but mobile it may not be
17:21:50 <jongund> MK: On a desktop it is cascding menus,....
17:22:08 <jongund> JN: Depends on the size of the display
17:22:18 <jongund> MK: In trees you always see the pattern
17:22:29 <jongund> JN: It could be scrolled off the screen
17:22:40 <jongund> MK: But you could scroll back up
17:22:43 <jongund> JN: yes
17:23:08 <jongund> MK: In the description, most of this is mostly in the KB section
17:23:11 <jongund> JN: Yes
17:23:18 <jongund> MK: This could be some work
17:23:27 <jongund> JN: It could be just copying and pasting
17:24:17 <jongund> MK: I don't think it is straight copy and past, with the focus...
17:24:41 <jongund> JN: We would have a separate path, focusing stuff, maybe not, we will see, I will load a bug
17:25:19 <jongund> JN: "There must be visual distinction between focused and selected nodes"
17:25:35 <jongund> JN: This is part of the description
17:25:45 <jongund> JN: talking about mouse and keyboard behavior
17:25:55 <jongund> MK: That is unual
17:26:01 <jongund> JN: Maybe we should drop it
17:26:06 <jongund> MK: Yes
17:26:19 <jongund> MK: We have some similar things in listbox
17:26:34 <jongund> MK: Can we go back and look at the patterns we have already done
17:26:57 <jongund> MK: We are still establishing our pattern....
17:27:21 <jongund> MK: Reviewing other roles with selection.....
17:27:41 <jamesn> this is the bug I am logging so far
17:27:42 <jamesn> Move the applicable general behaviour bullets to the keyboard section.
17:27:42 <jamesn> 4th bullet (Nodes can be focused and/or selected. There must be visual distinction between focused and selected nodes.) should remain a note in the general section.
17:27:42 <jamesn> 5th bullet (Arrowing to an item with the keyboard or clicking on an item with the mouse will focus and select the node. Any previous selections are cleared) should potentially be dropped.
17:28:08 <jongund> MK: Listbox and treeview are the first ones with selection
17:28:59 <jongund> MK: We have only talked about the keyboard....
17:29:18 <jongund> JG: Do mouse interactions help inform which widget is appropriate?
17:29:42 <jongund> MK: What kind of can of worms would that open up
17:30:07 <jongund> MK: I don't think we talk about mouse, it might add alot of information and may not be relavent
17:30:11 <jongund> JN: Me too
17:30:59 <jongund> JN: If someone is using a different mouse interaction, we shouldn't advise people or limit innovation
17:31:28 <jongund> MK: There could be a place in the support section, we could link to WCAG 2.0 keyboard operation
17:32:35 <jongund> JG: I feel we should remove mouse interaction information
17:32:58 <jongund> JN: Drop fifth bullet or keep the non-mouse part
17:33:15 <jongund> MK: The selection part is covered by other statements
17:33:24 <jongund> AA: It will be in the KB section
17:33:44 <jongund> MK: That bullet makes an assumption about single select
17:34:12 <jongund> MK: Quite often we .., last week we talked about single and multi-select
17:34:41 <jongund> MK: We do not want to encourage modifier keys for single and multi-select due to problems with mobile
17:34:57 <jongund> MK: For example using the space bar for selecting
17:35:19 <jongund> MK: If is a single select...
17:35:43 <jongund> JN: I have not seen them that way, I would love to see an example
17:36:02 <jongund> MK: In install programs, there is a checkbox
17:36:35 <jongund> JN: It is still not a checkbox, but the visual indication will indicated it is selected, ... modifier key...
17:37:02 <jongund> JN: Going off for 5-10 minutes...
17:37:48 <jongund> MK: Reading the kB section
17:39:09 <jongund> MK: Shift+PageDn should be Shift+End, creating bug
17:41:01 <jongund> MK: There are two different kinds of multi-select
17:41:18 <jongund> MK: I will separate them out
17:41:58 <jongund> JG: "*" expands all nodes
17:44:53 <jongund> AA: In windows  the "*" expands just the nodes on the current level, not all nodes
17:47:16 <jongund> MK: You tried numpad "*"?
17:47:38 <jongund> MK: I don't think it is a standard, I would like to see it deleted
17:47:57 <jongund> MK: I have seen control "+" or control "-"
17:48:31 <jongund> MK: AA: "*" does expand on the current level, in windows explorer
17:49:10 <jongund> J: I think it could be recommended if people provide the function
17:49:30 <jongund> AA: Just add expand all nodes at the current level?
17:49:54 <jongund> MK: All siblings at that level
17:51:44 <jongund> MK: We typically use the windows as the basis for the style guide, I have seen control "+" and "-"
17:51:50 <jongund> JN: Just at that level
17:52:12 <jongund> AA: I am not seeing them work in WIndows Explorer
17:52:49 <jongund> JN:  mouse user can not expand all nodes, so we are describing behavior that is not there for others
17:53:06 <jongund> MK: I am trying to thin of a specific example
17:53:56 <jongund> JG: I think it should be an optional behaviors, but if you provide it use these keys
17:54:16 <Matt> In Windows, it expands all siblings at the same level, not all nodes.
17:54:17 <Matt> A key to do this is optional.
17:55:02 <jongund> MK: I am changing keypad to numeric keypad
17:55:45 <jongund> MK: I just tested a open source tree that uses control "+", it is multi-plateform, it is just what they choose
17:56:39 <jongund> MK: Enter usually performs a default action
17:56:59 <jongund> JN: If there is no default action then it could expand or contract a node
17:57:31 <jongund> MK: reviewing today's bugs
17:57:54 <jongund> JN: I think these are mostly editorial....
17:58:16 <jongund> MK: I was going to create a bug on listbox and mention both types of selection models
17:58:34 <jongund> MK: I think that is a visual styling decision, both need to be described
17:58:40 <jongund> JN: that is fair enough
17:58:57 <jongund> JN: I think we need to define optional keyboard shortcuts
17:59:15 <jongund> JN: I am going to add the optional one in one bug
17:59:23 <jongund> JN: How about Home and End
17:59:31 <jongund> MK: I do not consider them optional
17:59:46 <jongund> JN: Depends on the size of the tree
18:00:06 <jongund> JN: expand all contract all are optional
18:00:35 <jongund> JN: There are times when moving use letteres is alot of work
18:00:46 <jongund> MK: There are alot of tree that do not support that feature
18:01:22 <jongund> MK: It there are more than 5 node at any level...
18:01:34 <jongund> JN: Probably all trees, but maybe not
18:02:10 <jongund> AA: I went to the guidelines for KB windows guidelines, "+" on numpad ......
18:05:20 <jongund> JN: It does expand all the children
18:05:41 <jongund> MK: You are not seeing anything like control "+" or "-"
18:05:56 <jongund> AA: I don't see anything like that
18:06:22 <jongund> JN: Provide a link to Windows Guidelines
18:06:30 <jongund> AA: Page goes on and on
18:06:41 <jongund> MK: I added a bug for multi-selection...
18:07:15 <annabbott> Guidelines for Keyboard User Interface Design (Microsoft): https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms971323.aspx
18:07:40 <annabbott> Search for Tree View
18:07:47 <jongund> MK: I need to read the properties and states
18:09:45 <jongund> MK: Our roles and states and properties is usually a list, here it is a sentence
18:09:52 <jongund> JN: That is an editorial fix
18:11:09 <jongund> JN: I don't want to get into aria-owns
18:11:18 <jongund> MK: That is probably a good idea
18:12:20 <jongund> MK: psoinset and setsize
18:12:49 <jongund> JG: These are needed when the DOM does not present the position and the setsize
18:13:05 <jongund> JN: These are things that people need to be thinking of using
18:13:20 <jongund> AA: So why don't we need aria-owns
18:13:45 <jongund> JN: This is used when the DOM does not represent what you want in the accessibility tree
18:14:09 <jongund> MK: A tree contain, poorly written needs to be rewritten...
18:14:29 <jongund> MK: We need to says something about the DOM structure
18:14:43 <jongund> JN: There needs to be ....
18:15:38 <Matt> scribe: matt_king
18:15:52 <Matt> AA: we at least need a reference to aria-owns
18:16:32 <Matt> mk: we need to state that treeitems are dom children or owned by the tree element.
18:17:09 <annabbott> Bug: tree view - posinset and setsize
18:18:01 <annabbott> MK: at a reasonable stopping point
18:18:36 <annabbott> MK: do we need to talk about aria-selected in States & Properties
18:18:46 <annabbott> MK: also need to cover multi-select
18:19:16 <Matt> rrsagent, make minutes
18:19:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt
18:19:49 <annabbott> James: Let's see if we can grab from somewhere else
18:20:01 <annabbott> MK: maybe from Listbox
18:20:31 <annabbott> MK: not available for call next week
18:20:47 <annabbott> James: may not be able to make next week
18:20:54 <annabbott> MK: for next two weeks
18:21:08 <annabbott> MK: June 29 and July 6
18:21:36 <annabbott> James: out first three weeks of August
18:23:28 <Matt> zakim, bye
18:23:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg
18:23:37 <Matt> rrsagent, make minutes
18:23:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt