IRC log of sdw on 2015-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:50:05 [RRSAgent]
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12:50:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:50:07 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
12:50:07 [Zakim]
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12:50:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SDW
12:50:09 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:50:10 [trackbot]
Meeting: Spatial Data on the Web Working Group Teleconference
12:50:10 [trackbot]
Date: 17 June 2015
12:50:37 [eparsons]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:50:48 [eparsons]
present+ eparsons
12:50:59 [eparsons]
chair: eparsons
12:53:38 [phila]
regrets+ Antoine Zimmermann
12:54:11 [phila]
regrets+ Jeremy, Christine, Payam
12:54:16 [phila]
present+ Phil
12:56:01 [kerry]
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12:56:05 [Frans]
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12:58:07 [kerry]
present+ kerry
12:58:22 [billroberts]
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12:58:40 [Linda]
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12:58:41 [LarsG]
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12:58:47 [Linda]
present+ Linda
12:58:57 [LarsG]
present+ LarsG
12:59:18 [phila]
zakim, who is here?
12:59:18 [Zakim]
sorry, phila, I don't know what conference this is
12:59:20 [Zakim]
On IRC I see LarsG, Linda, billroberts, Frans, kerry, Zakim, RRSAgent, phila, ahaller2, eparsons, chaals, trackbot
12:59:49 [Alejandro_Llaves]
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12:59:54 [Frans]
present+ Frans
12:59:59 [billroberts]
present+ billroberts
13:00:09 [Alejandro_Llaves]
present+ Alejandro_Llaves
13:00:41 [lewismc]
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13:00:43 [ahaller2]
present+ ahaller2
13:00:53 [joshlieberman]
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13:01:26 [MattPerry]
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13:01:49 [eparsons]
scribe: linda
13:01:51 [MattPerry]
present+ MattPerry
13:01:51 [Linda]
scribe: Linda
13:02:00 [phila]
scribeNick: Linda
13:02:16 [AndreaPerego]
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13:02:43 [eparsons]
Topic: Approve Minutes
13:02:52 [eparsons]
13:02:58 [Linda]
eparsons: opens meeting
13:03:06 [Linda]
... first item: approve last weeks minutes
13:03:07 [phila]
Not present so can't say
13:03:15 [billroberts]
13:03:15 [eparsons]
PROPOSED: Accept last weeks minutes
13:03:18 [Frans]
13:03:18 [ahaller2]
13:03:19 [kerry]
13:03:20 [MattPerry]
13:03:21 [eparsons]
13:03:22 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:03:23 [Linda]
13:03:31 [lewismc]
13:03:40 [eparsons]
RESOLVED: Accept last week's minutes
13:03:49 [eparsons]
Topic: Patent Call
13:03:54 [Linda]
eparsons: next item: patent call
13:03:57 [eparsons]
13:04:07 [AndreaPerego]
present+ AndreaPerego
13:04:24 [eparsons]
Topic: Best Practice principles
13:04:40 [phila]
present+ lewismc
13:04:43 [Linda]
eparsons: main topic today is the principles
13:05:08 [Linda]
... announcing the editors of the best practice document:
13:05:17 [Linda]
... one of whom is on the call: Lewis
13:05:33 [eparsons]
Welcome Editors,
13:05:35 [Linda]
lewismc: introduces himself
13:05:42 [eparsons]
Lewis McGibbney (NASA)
13:06:20 [eparsons]
Payam Barnaghi (University of Surrey)
13:06:21 [Linda]
...looking forward to it, thanks for the opportunity
13:06:30 [eparsons]
Jeremy Tandy (Met Office)
13:06:45 [Linda]
eparsons: other two are not here today, Payam and Jeremy. So we have 3 editors.
13:07:02 [Linda]
... will be an important piece of work
13:07:11 [eparsons]
13:07:13 [ChrisLittle]
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13:07:50 [Linda]
... proposal: work throught the BP principles together during this call. Numbered them for easy of reference.
13:08:36 [Linda]
... principles are to create the context in which the BP is set and the audience.
13:09:18 [ChrisLittle]
+1 agreed
13:09:21 [lewismc]
13:09:23 [AndreaPerego]
13:09:27 [Linda]
... important to agree on the idea that the audience of the BP doc is going to be as broad as possible.
13:09:28 [lewismc]
13:09:28 [Frans]
13:09:30 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:09:32 [billroberts]
+1 I agree with that
13:09:32 [ahaller2]
13:09:32 [Linda]
13:09:33 [MattPerry]
13:09:33 [LarsG]
13:09:34 [AndreaPerego]
13:09:35 [phila]
13:10:09 [kerry]
+1 -- but remember scope of 5* linked data
13:10:18 [eparsons]
ack next
13:10:19 [phila]
ack me
13:10:21 [Linda]
Josh: would be useful to [...] (didn't hear)
13:11:02 [Linda]
phila: I hope that web people could read this without any spatial literacy. It's about bridging that gap.
13:11:04 [joshlieberman]
Best practices should address a broad audience, but assert / communicate a reasonable level of geospatial literacy.
13:11:21 [Linda]
thx josh
13:11:22 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to PhilA
13:11:49 [Linda]
... terminology will be important. BP should help people, not turn them away.
13:12:17 [joshlieberman]
13:12:20 [Linda]
... if possible, without turning away those who are GI experts.
13:12:40 [ChrisLittle]
asking for earth, moon, mars etc ;-)
13:12:43 [eparsons]
ack next
13:12:48 [Frans]
+1 to PhilA
13:12:58 [Linda]
joshlieberman: example of spatial literacy:
13:13:40 [Linda]
... web community and spatial community define coordinates differently.
13:13:44 [AndreaPerego]
+1 again to PhilA about the terminology issue. One example is "feature", that is a notion difficult to understand without a geospatial background
13:15:19 [Linda]
eparsons: I agree, there are more examples of confusions like this. So we need to make simplifications and give the minimal explanation necessary.
13:15:22 [joshlieberman]
We can assume little "prior" spatial literacy, but let's improve on that.
13:15:22 [phila]
q+ to suggest a glossary might be helpful
13:15:23 [Frans]
13:15:39 [PhilippeThiran]
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13:15:42 [eparsons]
ack next
13:15:43 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to suggest a glossary might be helpful
13:15:50 [PhilippeThiran]
present+ PhilippeThiran
13:15:53 [Linda]
joshlieberman: the BP could assume little prior knowledge, but should provide the necessary knowledge.
13:16:46 [eparsons]
13:17:07 [Linda]
phila: e.g. things like coordinate ref system should be defined somewhere because a lot of people do not know about this.
13:17:21 [Linda]
... although it is not our job to educate the world
13:17:30 [eparsons]
ack next
13:17:51 [kerry]
13:18:10 [Linda]
Frans: simplicity and complexity don't have to be exclusive. You could have simplicity and give the ability to drill down into more detail and complexity.
13:18:14 [eparsons]
ack next
13:18:38 [Linda]
kerry: In order to attain simplicity we have to give up completeness.
13:19:32 [Linda]
eparsons: agreed. We'll have to ignore the edge cases.
13:19:37 [joshlieberman]
So, include spatial omelets, but maybe leave out souffle's
13:19:44 [Linda]
... or is there some middle way?
13:20:04 [phila]
+1 to omlettes
13:20:09 [Linda]
eparsons: I like Josh's point
13:20:29 [Linda]
eparsons: proposes that we recognize a mainstream, web audience
13:20:34 [Linda]
.. not necessary of professionals
13:20:34 [billroberts]
13:20:39 [kerry]
13:20:40 [Frans]
13:20:45 [Alejandro_Llaves]
13:20:47 [eparsons]
ack next
13:21:26 [Linda]
billroberts: if we don't aim at simplicity and mainstream audience the risk is that we are just addressing a community that already knows this.
13:21:49 [Linda]
... therefor simplicity is more important than completeness.
13:21:50 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to BillRoberts
13:21:53 [eparsons]
ack next
13:22:18 [Linda]
Frans: could we divide the audience into consumers and publishers?
13:22:29 [ChrisLittle]
+1 consumers versus publishers
13:22:39 [phila]
q+ to talk about the DWBP experience
13:22:51 [eparsons]
ack next
13:22:52 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about the DWBP experience
13:22:55 [Linda]
eparsons: we may well want to come back to talking about that division. Maybe divide the doc intos sections for those audiences.
13:23:12 [Linda]
phila: discussed this also in data on the web group
13:23:15 [joshlieberman]
Somewhat uncertain about this -- everyone with a cellphone is a spatial data producer.
13:23:39 [Linda]
... 1st audience was producers, 2nd was consumers
13:23:44 [eparsons]
PROPOSED: Audience is the broad web community of non geo-experts
13:23:55 [kerry]
q+ to pseak on non-experts
13:24:00 [Frans]
13:24:02 [phila]
I would say 'an audience is...'
13:24:03 [eparsons]
ack next
13:24:04 [Zakim]
kerry, you wanted to pseak on non-experts
13:24:09 [kerry]
13:24:27 [Linda]
kerry: we have a use case which describes the audience
13:25:03 [phila]
13:25:15 [eparsons]
ack next
13:25:16 [Linda]
eparsons: this is from the consumer point of view
13:25:38 [phila]
13:25:59 [Linda]
phila: I presented this to ISO TC211 last week
13:27:35 [Linda]
... there must be a happy medium, in this group there is spatial expertise available, what we should do is bring this knowledge to the world
13:28:12 [Linda]
eparsons: So in general we agree on this principle of meeting the needs of this broad audience
13:28:18 [AndreaPerego]
13:28:23 [Linda]
... this leads to the question of approach
13:28:57 [Linda]
... linked data is mentioned in a couple of the principles and underlies the W3C way of publishing data, but not very much adopted in OGC world
13:29:10 [billroberts]
13:29:15 [eparsons]
ack next
13:29:15 [joshlieberman]
Does the GeoJSON / Leaflet-using web developer need to know that leaflet is projecting the GeoJSON coordinates into Web Mercator to work with a basemap?
13:29:20 [Linda]
... so do we suggest this broad audience uses a linked data approach?
13:30:33 [Linda]
billroberts: it is a good basis, just starting with giving everything a url. But lets not restrict ourselves to linked data.
13:31:14 [Linda]
... also do things with JSON, as this is simpler than linked data - or is believed so.
13:31:52 [Linda]
eparsons: requirements are discoverability and linkability. Historically spatial data does not score well on these.
13:31:58 [kerry]
but u can do rdf and json at the same time;
13:32:00 [Frans]
13:32:06 [Linda]
... linked data is a possible solution to both but might not be the only one.
13:32:15 [eparsons]
ack next
13:32:19 [ChrisLittle]
13:32:34 [Linda]
billroberts: yes a good solution, but don't advocate as the only one if you want to reach a broad audience.
13:32:45 [Linda]
Frans: a lot of reqs point in the direction of linked data.
13:33:20 [Linda]
... maybe we don't have to be explicit about linked data, it follows from the reqs.
13:33:40 [Linda]
... there's also a risk that we don't critically assess.
13:33:41 [eparsons]
ack next
13:34:27 [Linda]
ChrisLittle: linked data isused a lot in catalogs, pointing to the data.
13:34:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
13:35:02 [joshlieberman]
I propose that we use linked data where appropriate -- e.g. fine-grained data distribution and discovery through mereo-topological relationships. Bounding-box and dimensional discovery doesn't really benefit there.
13:35:27 [Linda]
... my concern is that in our community we have a lot of 4D data.
13:35:29 [AndreaPerego]
13:35:30 [phila]
present+ ChrisLittle
13:35:47 [eparsons]
ack next
13:36:26 [Linda]
AndreaPerego: billroberts made a good point highlighting that linked data can be difficult.
13:36:36 [Linda]
... important requirement is to be web-friendly.
13:37:10 [kerry]
note from our charter: The scope of the Spatial Data on the Web Working Group, SDWWG, is Web technologies as they may be applied to location. Where relevant, it will promote Linked Data using the 5 Stars of Linked Data paradigm, but this will not be to the exclusion of other technologies.
13:37:39 [Linda]
eparsons: kerry can you remind us what to do to get 5 stars?
13:37:54 [Linda]
kerry: not difficult: use linked data standards, and use urls.
13:38:30 [Frans]
5 star Open Data:
13:38:41 [phila]
q+ to talk about URIs and USB sticks
13:39:07 [billroberts]
13:39:09 [eparsons]
ack next
13:39:10 [Zakim]
phila, you wanted to talk about URIs and USB sticks
13:39:13 [Linda]
... we aren't constrained to do linked data but I hope we can promote it.
13:39:40 [Linda]
phila: fundamentals: URIs and HTTP
13:39:51 [LarsG]
13:40:08 [Linda]
... don't use the web as a glorified USB stick
13:40:13 [eparsons]
ack next
13:40:27 [Linda]
... or only publish metadata, not the data on the web
13:40:35 [Frans]
We should get those fundamentals in the BP principles.
13:41:27 [LarsG]
13:41:45 [joshlieberman]
Increasingly clear that the path from linked data to Web-friendliness is URI dereferencing practice.
13:41:52 [Linda]
billroberts: also help people from the broad community to find the right tools
13:42:07 [Linda]
eparsons: we've got some level of agreement to use or inspire to use linked data
13:42:41 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to BillRoberts. Which also includes the availability of data in mainstream formats, whenever possible / feasible.
13:42:44 [Frans]
Who will be in charge of t-shirts?
13:42:55 [Linda]
... we should print some tshirts with phila and josh quotes about usb sticks and souffles.
13:43:13 [Linda]
... time to move on to the next topic
13:43:16 [eparsons]
Topic: Proposed timeline
13:43:25 [Linda]
... which is the timeline.
13:43:54 [Linda]
... we should discuss reorganising the time frame.
13:44:03 [Linda]
... the bp is the next major piece of work.
13:44:21 [phila]
End October
13:44:29 [Linda]
... we hope to get a first pwd at the time of the TPAC, end of october.
13:44:33 [phila]
Mon-Tue 26-27 October
13:45:02 [Linda]
... although during the summer work will slow down a bit
13:45:36 [Linda]
... the other deliverables, the SSN work, coverages, we could potentially start in september and work parallel.
13:45:52 [Linda]
... so the BP document doesn't have to be complete before starting on the rest. What is your opinion?
13:46:35 [Linda]
Frans: in the original planning bp deliverable had the same deadline as Time ontology. What was the original thinking about dependencies between deliverables?
13:46:50 [Linda]
eparsons: wasn't involved in the timeframe. Phil?
13:47:09 [lewismc]
Where is the original timeline/rodmap for the WG? Can someone provide a URL?
13:47:25 [Linda]
phila: we were trying to get this done in two years. We didn't think so much about dependencies as about priorities.
13:47:35 [kerry]
timeline is on charter
13:47:47 [Linda]
... driving force was deadline end of 2016.
13:47:54 [lewismc]
thnx kerry
13:48:10 [Linda]
eparsons: other thoughs?
13:48:12 [kerry]
13:48:16 [eparsons]
ack next
13:48:48 [Linda]
kerry: I support this, but I'm not keen on parallel meetings.
13:49:07 [Linda]
... try to keep the meetings in a single track, maybe alternate every 2 weeks.
13:49:11 [AndreaPerego]
+1 to Kerry
13:50:13 [Linda]
eparsons: I'm not getting the impression that our proposed timeframe doesn't make sense, so we'll work some more on it.
13:50:14 [eparsons]
Topic: TPAC Registration
13:50:42 [phila]
13:50:56 [Linda]
phila: W3C big annual get together, the W3C equivalent of the OGC TC meeting.
13:51:38 [Linda]
... a lot of working groups meet there for 2 full days. E.g. the geolocation working group and the Web of Things interest group.
13:51:55 [Linda]
... everyone's welcome to come
13:52:02 [Linda]
... the wednesday is plenary day.
13:52:37 [Linda]
... this year it's in Sapporo, Japan. Our group is meeting monday and tuesday of that week.
13:52:53 [Linda]
... there is a charge for attending, you can register now, please do so.
13:53:14 [Linda]
... wednesday is recommended!
13:53:40 [Linda]
eparsons: will be there monday till wednesday
13:53:52 [joshlieberman]
Would be lovely to afford it...
13:53:55 [Linda]
fee is about 85 dollars per day
13:54:25 [Linda]
phila: second 'holiday' is OGC TC meeting in the week of the 14th of september
13:55:05 [Linda]
... the idea is not to have a formal f2f there, but to have this wednesday call take place from the TC.
13:55:11 [ChrisLittle]
13:55:19 [eparsons]
ack next
13:55:39 [Linda]
ChrisLittle: OGC is using gotomeeting instead of webex.
13:55:41 [billroberts]
sorry got to go - thanks, bye
13:55:43 [Linda]
phila: doesn't matter
13:55:53 [eparsons]
Topic: ANOB
13:55:54 [Linda]
eparsons: any other business?
13:55:56 [kerry]
13:55:59 [eparsons]
ack next
13:56:16 [AndreaPerego]
I won't be in Sapporo, but I might be able to be in Nottingham for the OGC TC.
13:56:25 [Linda]
kerry: we also have the idea to do the call from the OGC TC meeting in Sidney in december.
13:56:42 [lewismc]
Thanks folks
13:56:42 [Linda]
eparsons: that's it for this week
13:56:43 [lewismc]
13:56:44 [AndreaPerego]
Thanks, bye
13:56:46 [Linda]
Bye all!
13:56:47 [LarsG]
13:56:47 [Alejandro_Llaves]
thanks, bye!
13:56:50 [kerry]
13:56:51 [MattPerry]
13:56:51 [phila]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:56:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate phila
13:56:55 [ahaller2]
thanks, bye
13:56:56 [joshlieberman]
bye and thanks
13:56:59 [eparsons]
bye !!
13:57:03 [ChrisLittle]
bye and thanks linda
13:57:06 [joshlieberman]
joshlieberman has left #sdw
13:57:16 [ChrisLittle]
ChrisLittle has left #sdw
14:03:38 [phila]
zakim, bye
14:03:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sdw
14:03:43 [phila]
RRSAgent, bye
14:03:43 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items