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15:01:23 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:01:35 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:01:35 <ArtB> Scribe: ArtB
15:01:35 <ArtB> Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference
15:01:35 <ArtB> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0111.html
15:01:36 <scott_gonzalez> scott_gonzalez has joined #pointerevents
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15:04:15 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Scott_González, Rick_Byers, Patrick_H_Lauke, Tim_Dresser, Mustaq_Ahmed
15:04:26 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:04:45 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:05:49 <ArtB> Present+ Asir_Vedamuthu
15:08:22 <ArtB> Topic: Tweak and agree on agenda
15:08:30 <ArtB> AB: I posted a draft agenda yesterday https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0111.html. It includes quite a few topics but I think some of them might go quickly. Any change requests?
15:08:58 <ArtB> RB: can drop #5
15:09:04 <ArtB> … think we covered it on the list
15:09:29 <ArtB> AB: we can take it in order and then drop it
15:10:15 <rbyers> test now
15:10:21 <ArtB> Topic: Hover click with pointer events
15:10:21 <rbyers> any better?
15:10:24 <scott_gonzalez> yes
15:10:27 <patrick_h_lauke> rbyers yes think so
15:10:29 <ArtB> AB: Timothy sent this e-mail to the list on April 22 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0080.html and Patrick replied yesterday https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0112.html voicing support.
15:10:29 <ArtB> AB: if there is agreement to add this feature, then we need a PR or an Editor can take the lead and commit text.
15:10:30 <rbyers> crap
15:11:08 <ArtB> AB: Tim, Patrick, any comments?
15:11:20 <ArtB> PL: agree in principle would be good to have
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15:11:44 <ArtB> TD: think we need some more text
15:11:50 <jrossi> had technical difficulties, but i'm here now
15:11:59 <ArtB> Present+ Jacob_Rossi
15:12:00 <jrossi> is the call working?
15:12:15 <jrossi> i'm on but don't hear anyone
15:12:20 <ArtB> RB: not clear how to update the spec for this
15:12:28 <ArtB> … think we need PRs and then discuss them
15:13:26 <ArtB> MA: think we need more text to cover this
15:13:49 <rbyers> Yes, let's discuss the specific spec impact
15:13:50 <patrick_h_lauke> i think there are two aspects to this from my point of view
15:13:58 <ArtB> AB: so I think Rick is asking for a proposal and/or PR. Is that correct Rick?
15:14:06 <rbyers> I think Mustaq was saying there are expections in the spec that may be violated by changing this
15:14:09 <patrick_h_lauke> a) do we open up the possibility that button/buttons is changed even when stylus is hovering
15:14:23 <patrick_h_lauke> (which it currently doesn't, at least on surface 3 + surface pen)
15:14:37 <patrick_h_lauke> b) whether we then also want to differentiate hovering pen vs touching pen
15:15:53 <patrick_h_lauke> +1 audio quality is...sub-par
15:16:23 <mustaq> I was trying to say: we have events for change-of-stylus-state w.r.t. touch surface...
15:16:35 <ArtB> AB: I think we need more discussion and proposals
15:16:42 <mustaq> but in this case we need events for button state changes.
15:16:50 <mustaq> like buttonchange?
15:17:03 <patrick_h_lauke> hmm, so that's perhaps even a third point
15:17:19 <ArtB> TD: I agree with following up on the list
15:17:23 <patrick_h_lauke> c) firing an event when button state changes
15:17:31 <ArtB> AB: ok, let's do that
15:17:38 <ArtB> Topic: Non-scroll-blocking wheel events listeners / relationship to PEWG?
15:17:46 <ArtB> AB: Rick continued this thread on April 22 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0081.html. Is there a specific Action and/or Issue(s) to record?
15:17:47 <scott_gonzalez> The spec says that you get a pointermove event if the buttons change.
15:18:07 <scott_gonzalez> "Additionally, when a pointer changes button state, pressure, tilt, or contact geometry (e.g. width and height) and the circumstances produce no other pointer events defined in this specification then a user agent must fire a pointer event named pointermove."
15:18:07 <patrick_h_lauke> scott ah, good point...forgot
15:18:43 <ArtB> RB: the big picture here is we are seeing cases where blocking event handlers are bad for perf
15:18:54 <ArtB> … have probs f.ex. wheel cases
15:19:11 <ArtB> … need to address wheel events and touch events
15:19:27 <ArtB> … not clear which group is the best place to have this discussion
15:19:36 <ArtB> … could be www-dom or public-touchevents
15:19:42 <ArtB> … I'll make a proposal on Github
15:19:51 <ArtB> … and then we can decide on how to proceed
15:19:55 <ArtB> AB: that sounds GTM
15:20:11 <ArtB> JR: I'm ok with having this discussion in this group
15:20:19 <ArtB> … and getting discussion on GH is good too
15:20:36 <ArtB> … this is definitely an area of interest to us v-a-v Edge
15:20:56 <ArtB> RB: we had some discussion with Moz/Toronto
15:21:13 <ArtB> … they have a heuristic that works for them
15:21:33 <ArtB> … it could be a counter-proposal to my wheel proposal
15:21:40 <ArtB> JR: or perhaps can do both
15:23:39 <ArtB> RB: I'll include information about why this is important to solve
15:23:46 <ArtB> AB: that SGTM
15:24:02 <ArtB> Topic: Expected behavior when releasing a button after pointer capture
15:24:11 <ArtB> AB: Scott started this thread on April 27 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0089.html. Rick's last reply seems to imply a change is needed https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0092.html i.e. it appears a concrete proposal (PR) would be useful.
15:25:31 <ArtB> [ Scott summarized the proposal ]
15:26:22 <ArtB> SG: Rick noted browsers are converging on this behavior for mouse events
15:26:58 <ArtB> RB: the history is complicated for mouse events
15:27:04 <ArtB> … not sure about the right answer
15:27:12 <ArtB> … we are doing some related compat testing
15:27:52 <ArtB> … can argue we need mouse and pe event compat
15:28:04 <ArtB> … We need implementation feedback to guide the design
15:28:33 <ArtB> SG: you mentioned FF is changing and Chrome is changing too
15:28:57 <ArtB> RB: both WK and Chrome do not fire events continuously during a scroll
15:29:22 <scott_gonzalez> http://dev-test.nemikor.com/behavior/mouseover-when-element-is-shown.html
15:29:59 <ArtB> SG: not sure if FF uses heuristic to prevent their behavior
15:31:05 <ArtB> RB: we need to be consistent with mouse events
15:31:27 <ArtB> … but we might want to also define the most rational thing for PE events (regardless of mouse events)
15:32:20 <ArtB> JR: think we need to be careful to change things just for one scenario (scrolling, animations, layout)
15:32:41 <ArtB> … haven't seen issues without having this behavior today
15:33:04 <ArtB> … I'm not particularly alamed by our behavior to change it
15:33:17 <ArtB> … but if I am missing some compat issues, then would be good to know
15:34:43 <ArtB> RB: mouse cursor is an interesting scenario
15:35:10 <ArtB> … we have a hack with a timer that updates mouse cursor
15:35:30 <ArtB> … what does IE do?
15:35:41 <ArtB> JR: not sure off the top-of-my-head
15:36:03 <ArtB> [ Jacob talks about IE implementation details ]
15:37:00 <ArtB> JR: if you have some impl feedback here, please share that info
15:37:17 <rbyers> Here's the main one: http://crbug.com/26723
15:37:55 <ArtB> AB: perhaps we should record an issue so we don't loose track of this
15:38:00 <ArtB> JR: sure
15:38:35 <ArtB> … would expect this to be tricky for us to implement
15:38:54 <ArtB> RB: there is definitely a potential performance hit
15:39:11 <rbyers> Related http://crbug.com/173712, http://crbug.com/246304,
15:39:20 <ArtB> JR: yes, agree there is a potential performance implication
15:39:28 <rbyers> Big picture issue that covers the whole space here: http://crbug.com/488886
15:39:40 <ArtB> … therefore we need to know for sure there is a compelling compat issue that needs to be solved
15:40:04 <ArtB> SG: in general, yes I can see lots of changes might be needed
15:40:25 <ArtB> … but if just loosing pointer-capture, that's just one case
15:40:52 <ArtB> JR: I think the consequences could be broad for us
15:42:19 <ArtB> RB: think the changes for Chrome would be more incremental
15:42:56 <ArtB> … FF almost always updates the hover state
15:43:08 <ArtB> … IE only does the update if cursor moves
15:43:22 <ArtB> … and Chrome is somewhat in the middle
15:44:59 <scott_gonzalez> This is the oldest ticket I can find related to this: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20022
15:45:23 <ArtB> AB: would you Scott please create a GH Issue?
15:45:28 <ArtB> SG: yes
15:45:38 <ArtB> Topic: Capture semantics for a node that moves between documents
15:45:52 <ArtB> AB: Rick started this thread on April 30 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0095.html. Scott cited text that appears to address Rick's question so not clear if this is a NOP or if some additional text would be helpful.
15:46:07 <ArtB> RB: I agree; let's move on
15:47:53 <ArtB> SG: lots of implementation diffs here
15:48:12 <ArtB> … f.ex. with replaceNode
15:48:50 <ArtB> RB: if there are related issues f.ex. in jQuery, please do let us know
15:49:11 <ArtB> Topic: Correcting inverted pan direction definition
15:49:23 <ArtB> AB: on May 8 Rick committed a correction re the pan direction definition https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0100.html (commit https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/commit/8548506a7db4de67fa6b8ca997887fdb6a0c8056). Any comments?
15:50:09 <jrossi> LGTM
15:50:23 <ArtB> AB: any other comments?
15:50:33 <ArtB> Topic: Bugs and Issues
15:50:46 <ArtB> AB: there is one open Bugzilla bug http://tinyurl.com/Bugs-PointerEvents and a few open Issues https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues.
15:50:46 <ArtB> AB: Do we want to discuss any of these today or expect discussion to continue online (i.e. the list, Bugzilla and/or Github)?
15:51:25 <ArtB> JR: no
15:51:28 <ArtB> RB: no
15:51:48 <ArtB> AB: so everyone, please provide feedback
15:51:50 <ArtB> Topic: Implementation status
15:51:55 <ArtB> AB: any updates on implementation?
15:52:33 <ArtB> AV: Matt isn't here today re FireFox
15:52:34 <jrossi> new implementation: Microsoft Edge :-)
15:52:40 <ArtB> … so let's get that input next time
15:52:42 <jrossi> ;-)
15:53:17 <ArtB> DS: is the Edge mostly the same as IE impl?
15:53:26 <ArtB> JR: mostly the same; some bug fixes
15:53:32 <patrick_h_lauke> forgot where we stood with it, but: what are we doing about the event order / simplified model that Edge uses?
15:53:34 <ArtB> Present+ Doug_Schepers
15:53:57 <ArtB> RB: we are actively landing patches
15:54:06 <ArtB> … Mustaq has patches
15:54:18 <ArtB> … still quite far from doing everything we need to do
15:54:24 <ArtB> JR: is there a flag yet?
15:54:32 <ArtB> RB: there is a flag in Canary
15:54:49 <ArtB> … have the basic support in JavaScript
15:54:54 <ArtB> AB: great
15:55:05 <ArtB> RB: just a command line flag now
15:55:07 <rbyers> --enable-blink-features=PointerEvent
15:55:22 <ArtB> AV: which features are supported
15:55:30 <ArtB> RB: create and dispatch events now
15:55:41 <ArtB> … some p-up and p-down support
15:55:54 <ArtB> … no leave yet and other stuff missing
15:56:04 <ArtB> … can follow the status via a Chrome bug
15:56:20 <rbyers> Top level chrome bug: http://crbug.com/471824
15:56:21 <ArtB> AB: thanks for the updates
15:56:27 <ArtB> Topic: AoB
15:56:37 <ArtB> AB: any other topics for today
15:56:53 <ArtB> JR: there are some issues with test library
15:56:59 <ArtB> … need some new test cases
15:57:00 <rbyers> Firing pointer events for touch input is the main thing Mustaq is working on now.  http://crbug.com/476565
15:57:14 <ArtB> … we plan to contribute them back and will ask for review
15:57:32 <mustaq> In canary, the --enable-blink-features=PointerEvent flag makes PEs visible.
15:57:38 <jrossi> yes it's pretty cool
15:57:40 <ArtB> SG: we pull in w3c test suite and pull them in with WebDriver
15:57:53 <jrossi> https://github.com/jquery/pep
15:57:59 <ArtB> RB: want to talk about how to make the test more automated
15:58:10 <ArtB> DS: good; we need to do that across other groups too
15:58:33 <ArtB> SG: if there is a missing test, we will write it and automate it with WD
15:58:49 <ArtB> RB: are there some manual instructions too?
15:59:06 <ArtB> SG: we are loading the test as is and then feeds the assertion back
15:59:20 <ArtB> … and define WD steps in a separate file
15:59:20 <scott_gonzalez> https://github.com/jquery/PEP/blob/master/tests/functional/pointerevent_button_attribute_mouse-manual.js
15:59:23 <jrossi> https://github.com/theintern/recorder
15:59:56 <ArtB> RB: we need to do something like this too
16:00:06 <ArtB> … thus seems like we need to share these files
16:00:16 <ArtB> DS: yes, make them part of the harness
16:00:26 <ArtB> SG: agree; that's why I mentioned this topic
16:00:57 <ArtB> JR: definitely want to get more automation of w3c tests
16:01:13 <ArtB> s/JR: definitely/RB: definitely/
16:01:37 <ArtB> DS: seems like we need to broaden the scope of the discussion
16:01:44 <ArtB> … since this isn't just PE specific
16:01:50 <ArtB> … I can set up a meeting
16:02:06 <ArtB> … Scott, is there a document about what you are doing?
16:02:14 <ArtB> SG: no; but we can create something
16:02:33 <ArtB> JR: agree this is important
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16:02:53 <ArtB> … WebDriver needs more APIs then the basic features supported now
16:03:03 <ArtB> … especially for touch and pointer events
16:03:44 <ArtB> … think they need to do more work before we use WD directly for our scenarios
16:04:08 <ArtB> RB: yes, we would be interested in a common way to do this
16:04:45 <ArtB> AB: so Doug, are you volunteering to start a thread or have a call
16:04:55 <ArtB> DS: yes
16:05:00 <jrossi> raises hand
16:05:01 <ArtB> … who is interested?
16:05:05 <ArtB> RB: me
16:05:07 <ArtB> SG: me
16:05:08 <ArtB> JR: me
16:05:09 <ArtB> AB: me
16:05:17 <asir> me too
16:05:24 <jrossi> Zakim, I won't miss you when you're gone
16:05:24 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I won't miss you when you're gone', jrossi
16:05:26 <ArtB> … I think public-test-infra would be a place to start
16:05:46 <ArtB> … MikeSmith might know the WD driver list
16:05:47 <rbyers> WebDriver spec says  public-browser-tools-testing@w3.org
16:05:53 <rbyers> https://w3c.github.io/webdriver/webdriver-spec.html
16:06:30 <jrossi> sure, something predictable would be nice rather than ad hoc
16:06:32 <ArtB> AB: what about call frequency?
16:06:52 <rbyers> monthly sounds good to me
16:06:58 <rbyers> we can add more if necessary
16:07:00 <ArtB> AV: something predictable would be good and then cancel if necessary
16:07:14 <ArtB> Present+ Matt_Brubeck
16:07:54 <rbyers> sorry need to drop off
16:08:44 <mbrubeck> I'll just add on IRC that we enabled Pointer Events in Firefox Nightly a little while ago, found some bugs and disabled it, but should be ready to re-enable it in the next few days.
16:09:07 <ArtB> AB: Matt, that's great; thanks for this info!
16:09:17 <scott_gonzalez> https://github.com/jquery/PEP/blob/master/tests/intern.js#L6-L10
16:09:22 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
16:09:39 <asir> Thank you for sharing the info Matt! Great!
16:09:46 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:09:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:10:29 <ArtB> Chair: ArtB
16:10:42 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:10:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/16-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:11:06 <mbrubeck> ArtB: Feel free to ping me on IRC if I miss the start of a call... that'll buzz my phone.  I'm often busy getting the kid to school around that time and forget to check in on time.
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16:51:59 <ArtB> zakim, bye
16:51:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pointerevents
16:52:04 <ArtB> rrsagent, bye
16:52:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items