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12:56:14 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-irc
12:56:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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12:56:18 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
12:56:18 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:56:19 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
12:56:19 <trackbot> Date: 12 June 2015
12:56:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
12:57:20 <LJWatson> LJWatson has joined #svg-a11y
12:57:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Fred
12:57:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgen, make log public
12:57:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
12:58:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: SVG Accessibility Task Force
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13:02:50 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:03:03 <LJWatson> meeting: SVG A11y TF
13:03:17 <LJWatson> Chair: Fred Esch
13:04:05 <LJWatson> present+ Fred Esch
13:04:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich
13:04:32 <LJWatson> present+ Doug Schepers
13:04:39 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
13:04:45 <LJWatson> scribenick: LJWatson
13:04:58 <LJWatson> TOPIC: The <use> element
13:05:15 <LJWatson> RS: When you take <use> you can take a section of the DOM.
13:05:44 <LJWatson> ... Under the covers the shadow DOM needs to be mapped to the accessibility tree.
13:06:21 <LJWatson> ... Chrome is the only browser to implement tabindex support so far.
13:06:28 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y
13:07:08 <LJWatson> DS: In Describlr the navigation tree had to be created manually.
13:07:19 <LJWatson> ... This is about focus though, not <use>.
13:07:31 <LJWatson> RS: No, it's bigger - you need to make sure things are exposed to the acc tree.
13:08:08 <LJWatson> DS: I disagree. We discussed this at length last week. The <use> element isn't intended to be used for complex constructs - only single things.
13:08:14 <LJWatson> RS: But you can can't you?
13:08:22 <LJWatson> DS: It's unclear in the current spec.
13:08:29 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:08:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:09:01 <LJWatson> DS: If there are two elements in an icon, and mousing over each caused something different to happen... different behaviour on each.
13:09:16 <LJWatson> ... If I put them in a group and re-used that, the behaviour would not persist.
13:09:55 <LJWatson> ... I don't believe the shadow DOM is exposed in this way, and I don't think it should be.
13:10:01 <LJWatson> RS: Do we say that anywhere in the guidance?
13:10:09 <LJWatson> DS: I don't know that we say it anywhere.
13:10:33 <LJWatson> ABR: There are discrepancies between the spec and implementations, and between implementations.
13:10:41 <LJWatson> present+ Amelia BR
13:10:48 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:10:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:12:42 <LJWatson> ... If you click on a complex icon you can figure out which thing was clicked on, but only the composite thing can react.
13:13:28 <LJWatson> RS: If a person interacts with an SVG drawing and is given some functionality, and someone who is impaired does not get the same functionality, that's a failure.
13:14:06 <LJWatson> ABR: SVG should adopt Web Components, but Web Components are not <use> elements.
13:14:36 <LJWatson> ... You use a template, but there is encapsulation. Each web component has its own DOM that can react differently from any other instance.
13:14:56 <LJWatson> RS: Amelia can you take an action to look at the SVG spec to get this cleaned up?
13:15:31 <LJWatson> ACTION: Amelia to look at SVG spec for references to <use> element, to make sure there is no confusion about implementation/accessibility.
13:15:31 <trackbot> Error finding 'Amelia'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:16:22 <LJWatson> RS: Can something copied with <use> be interacted with?
13:16:48 <LJWatson> DS: If I copied a button, it would be interactive in the sense it could be clicked on to be activated, but I could assign different behaviour to the cloned button.
13:16:54 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:16:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:17:17 <LJWatson> RS: I believe it's treated as a group by default.
13:17:52 <LJWatson> AVR: New roles like icon and/or symbol will have fallback roles.
13:18:33 <LJWatson> ABR: Looks like the spec has been cleaned up.
13:18:46 <LJWatson> DS: Has it been cleaned up, or just it just say "this thing is opaque".
13:18:57 <LJWatson> ... Agree that <use> isn't consistently implemented.
13:19:10 <LJWatson> ABR: We need to follow up with the main WG.
13:21:06 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:21:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:21:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> scribenick: Rich
13:21:38 <shepazu> (Created ACTION-3812 - Look at svg spec for references to <use> element, to make sure there is no confusion about implementation/accessibility. [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2015-06-19].)
13:21:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Rich make img the default role for <use>
13:21:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1649 - Make img the default role for <use> [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-06-19].
13:22:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Role Taxonomy
13:22:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: When we left 2 weeks ago we had talked about icon and we were starting to talk about whether we would want symbol also
13:23:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: I had initially proposed one role that would encompass a complex graphic that represents a simple concept in many cases.
13:24:10 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: We discussed whether it made sense to use the same terminology to define symbols on a graphic vs. a chart.
13:24:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: Even if common languages has different names for these, I think it is unnecessary to have 2 roles as we have to add terminology to define which context the role is valid in.
13:25:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: The context should determine the context
13:25:18 <shepazu> q+
13:26:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I like the term symbol as it is used in the graphics domains all the time. When ever you google things you can google electical symbols vs. electrical icons
13:26:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I definitely think there is value in telling ATs that there is value in telling the AT that these are symbols
13:27:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> Lioni: I see value in having both symbols and icons. There is quite a different to the 2 things in my mind
13:27:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: If you are trying to teach kids what the nomenclature is they can’t be referring to them as icons
13:27:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: There is interest in the role description property
13:27:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
13:28:13 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: I think it is an important issue
13:28:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: This is a larger ARIA issue
13:28:38 <fesch> ack shepazu
13:28:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack shepazu
13:29:06 <LJWatson> q+
13:29:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: we can differentiate between Symbol and icon. Are we saying that a user agent or an AT uses the same word that we use for the role in order to impart the meaning to the user?
13:29:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: Finish is not the same as finnish
13:29:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: at some point I agree there is a distinction on what stands as a symbol vs. a functional thing
13:30:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: I don’t know that we should keep dwelling on this
13:30:09 <AmeliaBR> q+
13:30:16 <fesch> ack rich
13:30:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger
13:30:55 <fesch> q ?
13:30:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: there are important issues about using the ARIA role name
13:31:06 <fesch> q+
13:31:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: what we should distinguish here is that the different types can be treated differently.
13:32:17 <fesch> ack LJ
13:32:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> Lioni: To the best of my knowledge screen readers will take guidance from the role attribute
13:32:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> Lioni: We need to make sure we correctly define what the thing is
13:33:14 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: I agree but the name that we choose for the role may not be what the AT uses
13:33:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: I can see where Apple says we have a better name for our users
13:33:35 <LJWatson> ack me
13:33:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: Shere this is a domain for dpub or epub we can choose the name in the context of the name
13:34:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> Lioni: you tend to describe something by its role
13:34:13 <fesch> ack ame
13:34:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: sounds reasonable. There are cases where people are already mapping to roles that are not in ARIA
13:34:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: it is not guaranteed.
13:35:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: my main concern is the distinction between symbol or icon
13:35:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: if it is interactive it should have a widget role
13:35:31 <shepazu> q+
13:35:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: so, we should avoid the word icon and just use Symbol
13:35:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack fesch
13:35:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: a symbol you can put an action on
13:36:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I would not prohibit doing an action on a symbole
13:36:06 <fesch> ack shep
13:36:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: only one role is mapped at a time
13:37:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: there is an aria-interactive role defined in ARIA 1.1
13:37:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: icon does not say what it is doing
13:38:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: we could subclass icon if we wanted to.
13:38:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> Lioni: Icon is a thing in digital interfaces
13:38:56 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: perhaps having an icon button being a subclass of button as represented as a graphical display. I think this is worth having a role for
13:39:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: Right. But then we could have a symbol for a non-interactive graphic wether it is in a map or a chart
13:39:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: You could always use a different aria role for things
13:40:11 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: you could also use an aria role description for a button to say that it is an icon
13:40:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: can I try to persuade you for a moment?
13:40:30 <LJWatson> q+
13:40:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: when I say click on the trash icon do you look for the trash button?
13:40:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: yes
13:41:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: perhaps for the average user there is more clarity by calling it an icon
13:41:19 <LJWatson> +1 to clarity for users.
13:41:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: I think they get most of their information from interacting with it
13:41:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: May I suggest a path forward but we put an icon role out there asking for feedback
13:41:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: I agree
13:42:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leoni: adding a role for icon is always going to be the path of least resistance.
13:42:30 <AmeliaBR> q+ to talk about symbol & role-description for shapes
13:42:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> Leoni: making them do a role of “buttion” with a role description of “icon” will not make them happy
13:42:54 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack LJWatson
13:43:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Ameila: Is there anything else on that topic?
13:44:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Use Icon as an Icon button Role which would be a subclass of the button role.
13:45:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Amelia,Fred, will be initial editors of the document and we will add as we gain contributors
13:47:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Lioni set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the Graphics module
13:47:42 <trackbot> Error finding 'Lioni'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:07 <AmeliaBR> s/making them do/making authors have to include/
13:48:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: LJWatson  set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the Graphics module
13:48:09 <trackbot> Error finding 'LJWatson'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Leeonie  set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the Graphics module
13:48:30 <trackbot> Error finding 'Leeonie'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
13:48:47 <shepazu> Action: Leonie  set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the Graphics module
13:48:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1650 -  set up github folder structure uner aria for the graphics module [on Léonie Watson - due 2015-06-19].
13:48:50 <richardschwerdtfeger> Action: Leonie  set up github folder structure uner ARIA for the Graphics module
13:48:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1651 -  set up github folder structure uner aria for the graphics module [on Léonie Watson - due 2015-06-19].
13:49:27 <fesch> q?
13:49:31 <AmeliaBR> ack me
13:49:31 <Zakim> AmeliaBR, you wanted to talk about symbol & role-description for shapes
13:49:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> Topic: Symbol
13:50:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: Symbol is an atomic non-interactive graphic
13:50:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: So a symbole will probably be the logical basic role for basic shapes
13:50:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: this is a diamond, this is a heart
13:50:52 <fesch> q?
13:51:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: The symbol should not be for any large graphic but that would include basic shapes
13:51:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: It would follow the existing pattern
13:51:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: it does not have a label on it you would not mention it at all
13:52:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: if you have a label on that shape you would call it a symbol
13:52:07 <fesch> q?
13:52:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: so if you just have a circle with a label do you really want this to be a symbol?
13:53:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: shape, ellipse, and path are details of the implementation
13:54:20 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: a symbol can never have a child
13:54:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: right now all these shapes will map to group
13:55:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: the only things it can have in the tree are animate, ...
13:55:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: there is no child text
13:55:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> Amelia: they can have implicit roles of role description circle
13:56:34 <fesch> q?
13:56:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: James Craig at Apple had wanted circle, ellipse, etc.
13:56:48 <shepazu> q+
13:56:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: it seems reasonable to define roles for the pre-defined shapes
13:57:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: I would not be a proposed to a shape role either
13:57:24 <fesch> q+
13:57:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> Jason: I think we have several different options for treating the issues
13:57:35 <fesch> ack shep
13:57:53 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: So, Jason If you heard that something had the role of path what would you think?
13:58:38 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: 90% of all elements used in SVG are all paths
13:59:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: rectangles, circles, and ellipses are typically either a path or a polygon
13:59:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: if it has curves it is probably a path
13:59:55 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: most authoring tools use paths vs circle, etc.
14:00:17 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: Yoking it to the thing that it is a not very valuable
14:00:32 <fesch> ack me
14:01:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: If we want people to know there is a circle on the screen it should probably be in shape or path with a roledescription that was circle
14:02:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: you could actually draw the entire symbol with a path and visually look the same.
14:02:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fred: when you are losing about basic shapes, … I don’t hear shapes used very often
14:03:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> Doug: other than when you are talking about a shape as a shape you need to be more explicit
14:04:19 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: Lets put symbol in the spec. and get feedback. Also state that we considered shape
14:04:52 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: We will have a symbol role that includes atomic non-interactive content that also encompasses the basic shapes
14:05:05 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
14:05:18 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:05:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
14:05:58 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:05:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/12-svg-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfeger
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