IRC log of dap on 2015-06-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/11-dap-irc

13:38:35 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

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13:38:37 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be DAP

13:38:37 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 22 minutes

13:38:38 [trackbot]

Meeting: Device APIs Working Group Teleconference

13:38:38 [trackbot]

Date: 11 June 2015

13:38:58 [fjh]

Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jun/0066.html

13:39:11 [fjh]

fjh has changed the topic to: dap https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Jun/0066.html WebEx password dap

13:39:38 [fjh]

Chair: Frederick_Hirsch

13:39:41 [fjh]

Present+ Frederick_Hirsch

13:39:50 [fjh]

Regrets+ Dominique_Hazael-Massieux

13:40:11 [fjh]

Topic: Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements

13:40:28 [fjh]

WebE best practices: https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExBestPractices

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s/WebE /WebEx /

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13:47:39 [mats]

Present+ Mats_Wichmann

13:48:26 [mats]

typically opens 5mins before

13:49:37 [mats]

telling me 5mins to go

13:50:02 [mats]

<pointless moan>have to use aging windows machine for webex, their java code hates my linux boxes

13:50:30 [fjh]

s/telling me 5mins to go//

13:50:37 [fjh]

s/<pointless moan>have to use aging windows machine for webex, their java code hates my linux boxes//

13:56:47 [anssik]

Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen

14:00:06 [tobie]

present+ Tobie_Langel

14:03:18 [gmandyam]

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14:06:54 [fjh]

ScribeNick: fjh

14:07:13 [fjh]

Feedback on /TR styles requested https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015Apr/0036.html

14:08:25 [fjh]

fjh: I will send a message about the questionnaire re styles to the list, please review

14:09:08 [fjh]

fjh: please let me know if we use any other authoring tools besides ReSpec, or if any special CSS is needed

14:09:23 [fjh]

Topic: Minutes approval

14:09:31 [fjh]

RESOLUTION: Minutes from14 May 2015 are approved,https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2015May/att-0051/minutes-2015-05-14.html

14:09:41 [fjh]

Topic: Generic Sensor API

14:10:07 [fjh]

fjh: updates http://w3c.github.io/sensors/

14:10:53 [fjh]

issues list: https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/

14:11:00 [fjh]

fjh: tobie to review draft

14:11:21 [fjh]

s/updates/Generic Sensor API editors draft/

14:11:46 [fjh]

tobie: need to add use cases section 2, may want to move to separate document

14:12:02 [fjh]

... rick created list of use case

14:12:56 [tobie]

https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/21#issuecomment-108081529

14:13:21 [fjh]

... section 3, security and privacy

14:13:43 [fjh]

... will go through material in different sensor specs, copy and paste generic ones here

14:13:53 [fjh]

... also issue 14 priviiedged context

14:14:33 [fjh]

fjh: issue is whether HTTPS should be required for sensor access not

14:14:43 [fjh]

anssik: see what best practice is

14:14:51 [fjh]

tobie: issue 20 re async permissioning

14:15:04 [fjh]

... need to write text, will move this

14:15:18 [fjh]

tobie: section 4 dependencies, only one issue

14:15:36 [fjh]

... goal is compatible for platforms that do not have DOM

14:15:46 [fjh]

... EventTarget is defined in and part of DOM

14:15:55 [fjh]

... but seems we need EventTarget

14:16:28 [fjh]

... other solutions like observable or event emitters will take too long to get specified and implemented

14:17:11 [fjh]

giri: considering upgrade to geolocation to use generic sensor api, but EventTarget makes no sense in that context

14:17:20 [fjh]

tobie: why doesn't make sense

14:17:31 [fjh]

giri: don't need it, works fine for apps not running in browser

14:18:19 [fjh]

Present+ Giri_Mandyam

14:18:27 [fjh]

tobie: not sure what you suggest, promises

14:18:35 [fjh]

giri: yes

14:19:02 [fjh]

tobie: promises and observables are valuable for some cases

14:19:13 [fjh]

s/giri/gmandyam/g

14:19:23 [fjh]

rrsagent, generate minutes

14:19:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/11-dap-minutes.html fjh

14:19:38 [fjh]

tobie: cannot make system using promises and build event model on it

14:19:54 [fjh]

... looking for proper lower common denominator, hence need event based system

14:21:18 [fjh]

gmandyam: certain sensor interfaces work without EventTarget today shouldn't use generic sensor API?

14:21:29 [fjh]

... need to go case by case to see where it is appropriate

14:21:35 [fjh]

tobie: want consistency

14:21:40 [fjh]

q?

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present+ Rick_Waldron

14:23:02 [rwaldron]

Whoops

14:23:14 [fjh]

s/Whoops//

14:24:21 [fjh]

action: gmandyam to discuss generic sensor API and use of EventTarget in Geolocation WG to summarize issues to DAP

14:24:21 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-733 - Discuss generic sensor api and use of eventtarget in geolocation wg to summarize issues to dap [on Giridhar Mandyam - due 2015-06-18].

14:25:04 [tobie]

https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/21

14:25:14 [fjh]

ACTION-733: relate to existing https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/21

14:25:14 [trackbot]

Notes added to ACTION-733 Discuss generic sensor api and use of eventtarget in geolocation wg to summarize issues to dap.

14:26:00 [fjh]

tobie: section 5 API, started with Rick's proposal

14:26:41 [fjh]

... close to implementation , need to fix WebIDL

14:26:48 [fjh]

s/ ,/,/

14:27:07 [fjh]

... draft notes issue 8, https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/8

14:27:31 [tobie]

http://tobie.github.io/sensors/

14:27:39 [fjh]

... looking at new version

14:28:07 [fjh]

... question is of discovery for sensors, e.g. for proximity, not necessarily geolocation

14:28:27 [fjh]

http://tobie.github.io/sensors/#the-sensors-interface

14:28:33 [fjh]

... tied to performance issues

14:29:00 [fjh]

... need to keep sensors out of critical path, e.g not during page load

14:29:31 [fjh]

... service worker API has API to look for clients of service worker

14:30:33 [fjh]

... mimic , treat sensors as the client, sensors are of the page

14:31:33 [fjh]

... concrete sensor implementations would inherit from Sensors in section 5.1

14:31:49 [fjh]

... page is like service worker

14:31:57 [tobie]

http://tobie.github.io/sensors/#the-sensor-interface

14:32:38 [fjh]

... identifier is opaque, connects to hardware, optional, useful when single sensor

14:32:40 [gmandyam]

q+

14:33:57 [fjh]

... see example 1, matchAll

14:34:27 [fjh]

... e.g. get array of sensors for proximity rear

14:34:29 [fjh]

q+

14:35:06 [fjh]

... do not need to subclass sensor observer

14:35:08 [fjh]

ack gmandyam

14:35:40 [fjh]

gmandyam: our implementation of geofencing, frequency is not static, depends on distance from fence

14:35:47 [fjh]

... how is this handled

14:35:58 [fjh]

tobie: open issue for that

14:36:30 [fjh]

gmandyam: what is expected behavior

14:36:34 [fjh]

tobie: we have to figure it out

14:36:42 [fjh]

... also open issue for geofencing

14:37:49 [tobie]

https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/23

14:37:55 [fjh]

... that is issue for frequency

14:38:21 [tobie]

https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/15 for geofencing

14:38:23 [fjh]

... no specific issue for geofencing, but mentioned in the following issue

14:39:39 [fjh]

fjh: use of 'rear' is example of issue that came up in HTML Media Capture, how to define these strings, know what they mean etc. sounds like repeat of what was in that work

14:39:46 [fjh]

gmandyam: yes that issue came up

14:39:49 [tobie]

https://github.com/w3c/sensors/issues/26

14:39:55 [fjh]

tobie: we need name

14:40:27 [fjh]

... under debate but tentative conclusion is that how to differentiate sensors of a certain type are sensor type specific

14:40:41 [fjh]

... proximity would be location on device

14:40:49 [fjh]

... temperature would be inside or outside

14:40:58 [fjh]

... so these definitions would not generic

14:41:52 [fjh]

... don't want to deep dive

14:42:04 [fjh]

fjh: agreed, suggest we make this for the concrete sensor specs

14:42:17 [fjh]

q?

14:42:20 [fjh]

q-

14:42:42 [fjh]

tobie: sensor observer is very similar to what was called Sensor in previous editors draft

14:42:55 [fjh]

... emits specific events

14:43:11 [fjh]

... can set desired frequency of updates, threshholds

14:43:22 [fjh]

... no event if threshhold not met

14:43:30 [fjh]

... batch support is included

14:44:27 [fjh]

... have SensorReading interface

14:44:55 [fjh]

... update to Rick's proposal

14:45:16 [fjh]

q?

14:45:56 [fjh]

fjh: this is metadata about a sensor reading

14:45:59 [fjh]

tobie: yes

14:46:10 [fjh]

fjh: so this could apply for each event

14:46:22 [fjh]

tobie: remember events are polled effectively

14:46:59 [fjh]

... multiple readers at different frequencies, so applciation has to figure out frequency needed to meet requirements for different sensor objects

14:47:34 [fjh]

... consideration for games

14:48:51 [fjh]

fjh: fusion is not visible to generic sensor api, right

14:49:17 [fjh]

tobie: developer gets one value, looks like one sensor, opaque

14:49:48 [fjh]

tobie: could also have other sensors visible

14:49:55 [fjh]

fjh: does not impact API

14:50:05 [fjh]

tobie: right, could flag it but not necessary

14:50:16 [fjh]

q?

14:51:08 [fjh]

tobie: discussion in issue 24 is lower level primitives

14:51:20 [fjh]

http://tobie.github.io/sensors/#issue-24

14:51:35 [fjh]

tobie: might be application to ardiuno or web of things

14:51:51 [fjh]

... need better understanding, so cannot make it concrete

14:52:02 [fjh]

fjh: does that need to be in v1

14:52:23 [fjh]

tobie: not in FPWD but don't want to lock ourselves out prematurely

14:52:46 [fjh]

... extensibiilty section

14:53:22 [fjh]

... need to show how to build spec based on generic sensor API, give examples in this section

14:53:37 [fjh]

... similar to service worker API

14:54:07 [fjh]

http://www.w3.org/TR/service-workers/

14:54:49 [fjh]

... may need to update permissions spec to add name for sensors, could be tedious and error-prone

14:55:33 [fjh]

... if user agent implements permissions API and not temperature sensor, would still have those permissions or require a manual edit

14:55:34 [fjh]

... better would be partial enumerables

14:55:48 [fjh]

... trying to get others to agree

14:56:54 [fjh]

... prefer register in concrete implementation specification

14:57:52 [fjh]

fjh: next step

14:58:02 [fjh]

tobie: need Rick to review and agree to changes

14:58:09 [fjh]

s/step/steps?/

14:58:26 [fjh]

fjh: update editors draft, share on list, agree to FPWD

14:58:36 [fjh]

fjh: do not need a perfect draft to publish

14:58:54 [fjh]

tobie: want also to turn issues into spec content

15:00:47 [fjh]

Topic: Adjour

15:05:48 [fjh]

s/Adjour/Adjourn/

15:05:52 [fjh]

rrsagent, generate minutes

15:05:52 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/11-dap-minutes.html fjh

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