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16:29:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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16:29:09 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:29:09 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
16:29:10 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:29:10 <trackbot> Date: 11 June 2015
16:29:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
16:29:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
16:30:50 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0022.html
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16:32:00 <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0022.html
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16:32:09 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Rich
16:32:19 <fesch> present+ Fred
16:32:26 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:32:49 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Cynthia
16:32:51 <MichaelC> present+ MichaelC
16:32:53 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
16:34:50 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
16:35:06 <MichaelC> topic: ARIA WG charter
16:35:22 <MichaelC> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-aria-charter Draft ARIA Charter
16:36:20 <MichaelC> mc: should be going to AC in next week or so
16:36:42 <MichaelC> has been approved by W3M
16:36:59 <janina> regrets+ I'm in an biannual ISO/V2 call. Will join if it ends in time
16:37:01 <MichaelC> going in separate surveys for granular results
16:38:28 <MichaelC> topic: Label role
16:38:30 <MichaelC> action-1422?
16:38:30 <trackbot> action-1422 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add label role (text from Matt King) -- due 2014-05-05 -- OPEN
16:38:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1422
16:38:53 <MichaelC> jd: have put edits in a branch, feedback so far from Joseph
16:38:59 <MichaelC> not convinced we need the role
16:39:11 <MichaelC> rs: not sure either but would have helped with captions
16:39:20 <MichaelC> jd: caption isn´t a label, there are key differences
16:39:33 <MichaelC> rs: we don´t share that view then
16:39:51 <MichaelC> jd: there´s text saying you don´t have to use it but can if you like
16:40:04 <MichaelC> not sure that´s strong enough reason for a role
16:40:22 <MichaelC> rs: agree, but others wanted it to map to HTML figcaption and stuff
16:40:23 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:40:43 <clown> q+ to summarize my concerns with lable role.
16:40:58 <clown> s/lable/label/
16:41:17 <MichaelC> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:41:23 <MichaelC> ack c
16:41:23 <Zakim> clown, you wanted to summarize my concerns with lable role.
16:41:27 <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/label/aria/aria.html#label
16:41:56 <clown> An element containing content that labels another element
16:42:15 <clown> <div role="checkbox" aria-labelledby="checkLabel"> ... </div>
16:42:15 <clown> <span role="label" id="checkLabel" aria-label="Allow incoming
16:42:15 <clown> connections"></span>
16:42:41 <MichaelC> js: my main concern is conflict between containing content, and examples that might not have content
16:42:45 <MichaelC> present+ Stefan
16:42:55 <MichaelC> which is all fine but the definition isn´t right then
16:43:23 <MichaelC> either need to remove content from the definition, or not allow aria-label / aria-labelledby
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16:43:30 <MichaelC> jd: agree
16:43:37 <MichaelC> this is an inheritance issue
16:43:44 <MichaelC> rs: aria-labelledby is global
16:43:51 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
16:43:54 <MichaelC> present+ JamesN
16:44:06 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
16:44:31 <MichaelC> js: which means it can be applied to any element
16:44:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:44:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> q+
16:44:47 <MichaelC> would be weird to disallow it, but I don´t know the use cases enough
16:44:48 <MichaelC> ack
16:44:50 <MichaelC> ack r
16:45:07 <MichaelC> rs: think aria-label aria-labelledby should stay global
16:45:09 <MichaelC> easier to remember
16:45:17 <MichaelC> no point making exception for a somewhat edge case
16:45:29 <MichaelC> use cases for label:
16:45:32 <MichaelC> caption
16:45:34 <MichaelC> figcaption
16:46:02 <MichaelC> but you could handle the labeling at the host language mappings level
16:46:15 <MichaelC> to form a virtual labelledby
16:46:26 <richardschwerdtfeger> ack
16:46:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> q?
16:46:37 <MichaelC> js, jd, rs: this is useless
16:46:45 <clown> action-1422?
16:46:45 <trackbot> action-1422 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add label role (text from Matt King) -- due 2014-05-05 -- OPEN
16:46:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1422
16:46:49 <jamesn> no - I agree it is useless
16:47:18 <MichaelC> jn: the rationale was an attempt to get a 1:1 mapping between HTML 5 elements and ARIA elements
16:47:26 <MichaelC> but don´t think it buys us anything in practice
16:47:33 <MichaelC> cs: useful from code clarity point
16:47:51 <MichaelC> fe: yes, simplifies some SVG cases
16:48:22 <MichaelC> rs: if something is labelled by something else, you can put label role in the platform mapping, don´t need author to do it
16:48:57 <MichaelC> js: I heard CS say it makes it easier for author to know what´s gonna happen
16:49:06 <MichaelC> rs: have never seen this in the wild
16:49:24 <MichaelC> jn: not having it doesn´t stop authors from using HTML label
16:50:10 <joanie> q+ To raise concern wrt caption
16:50:32 <MichaelC> mc: figcaption and caption label their parents; label labels something else
16:50:43 <MichaelC> jn: not invalid to have a label in HTML that labels nothing
16:50:50 <MichaelC> mc: probably because of limits of DTD expression
16:51:44 <MichaelC> fe: would be weird if a label for referenced something that said it´s labelledby was something else
16:52:43 <joanie> q-
16:52:46 <MichaelC> rs: we should kill it
16:52:50 <clown> q?
16:53:02 <MichaelC> it only helps some behind the scenes computation
16:54:31 <MichaelC> mc: expect HTML-AAM will have to map in way to not require ARIA label role, but potentially map to a platform feature nonetheless
16:55:51 <MichaelC> does this change any previous decisions to try to provide a comprehensive ARIA?
16:56:07 <MichaelC> rs: best to provide roles *where they are useful*
16:56:17 <MichaelC> js: SVG?
16:56:24 <MichaelC> fe: it´s all groups and stuff
16:56:53 <MichaelC> rs: we could make target of an aria-labelledby to defined as a label, but don´t see it as important
16:57:10 <MichaelC> fe: could @@
16:57:17 <MichaelC> rs: we could create a label role for SVG
16:57:27 <MichaelC> fe: hoped to piggy-back off of this in core ARIA
16:57:36 <MichaelC> but not a big deal
16:58:06 <MichaelC> rs: more useful to map to text
16:58:18 <MichaelC> fe: usually you care about the text, not the symbol
16:58:28 <MichaelC> but that may be an SVG-specific issue
16:59:46 <MichaelC> in a chart you could have axis with major and minor tick marks, don´t want all of those to become labels
17:00:05 <MichaelC> rs: propose that target of aria-labelledby has no mapping
17:00:13 <MichaelC> fe: does that stop you from getting to it?
17:00:14 <MichaelC> rs: no
17:00:25 <MichaelC> jd: if it´s not mapped, AT can´t find
17:01:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> <text role=“label” aria-labelledby=“foo”>
17:02:25 <MichaelC> rs: in above example you would ignore the aria-labelledby
17:03:18 <MichaelC>  <text role=¨label¨ id=¨text¨>label</label><circle aria-labelledby=¨text¨/>
17:04:28 <MichaelC> no, not that, I´m getting at that it´s not meaningful to put aria-labelledby on a label
17:04:45 <MichaelC> don´t know why someone would, but...
17:04:47 <clown> +1
17:04:58 <Stefan> +1
17:05:15 <richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: do not put role of “label” in the ARIA spec. as is to prone to author errors
17:05:20 <clown> +1
17:05:21 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
17:05:23 <joanie> +10000000
17:05:27 <fesch> + 1/2
17:05:34 <Stefan> +pi
17:05:41 <clown> + i
17:05:44 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: do not adopt the label role in ARIA core
17:05:45 <bgaraventa1979> +1
17:05:46 <jamesn> +1
17:07:37 <MichaelC> topic: Localized role descriptions
17:07:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> ttps://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/roledescription/aria/aria.html#aria-roledescription
17:07:46 <clown> action-1417?
17:07:47 <trackbot> action-1417 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Add edit for ISSUE-636: localized role description -- due 2015-06-12 -- OPEN
17:07:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1417
17:08:18 <MichaelC> rs: Markku´s gonna love this
17:12:22 <MichaelC> various: sorting what this means
17:12:27 <clown> <a role="button"  aria-role-descriptoin="attachement-button"> ...
17:12:43 <clown> s/descriptoin/description/
17:13:07 <MichaelC> jd: you would use this to provide clarification to the user about the intent of the role
17:13:27 <MichaelC> mc: kind of like an unofficial sub-role
17:13:44 <MichaelC> jd: get AT to announce something helpful
17:13:54 <MichaelC> but needs to be on a meaningful role to begin with, or the AT might overlook entirely
17:14:24 <MichaelC> rs: so require ARIA role when this is used?
17:14:41 <MichaelC> jd: we tried that, but found use cases for use on elements that have implicit ARIA semantics
17:15:36 <MichaelC> so came up with rule that their must either be ARIA role, or have implict role mapping
17:15:47 <MichaelC> ??: will authors understand that?
17:16:13 <MichaelC> mc: you have to be pretty knowledgeable to know why to use this to begin with, so maybe it´s safe enough
17:16:35 <MichaelC> fe: no, it´ll be a shiny toy that people will play with in all sorts of ways
17:17:02 <MichaelC> jd: is the concern about what the prose says, or how it says it?
17:19:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> Authors MUST only use aria-roledescription on elements that equate to a valid WAI-ARIA role (have an implicit WAI-ARIA role semantic) or or have a valid WAI-ARIA role applied. If neither condition is met then then the aria-roledescription MUST NOT be exposed by user agents.
17:21:44 <MichaelC> <wordsmithing>
17:21:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> Authors SHOULD only use aria-roledescription on elements that equate to a valid WAI-ARIA role (have an implicit WAI-ARIA role semantic) or or have a valid WAI-ARIA role applied. If neither condition is met then then the aria-roledescription MUST NOT be exposed by user agents.
17:22:42 <clown> If neither condition is met then user agents MUST NOT expose the aria-roledescription.
17:24:07 <richardschwerdtfeger> Authors SHOULD only use aria-roledescription on elements that equate to a valid WAI-ARIA role (have an implicit WAI-ARIA role semantic) or or have a valid WAI-ARIA role applied. If neither condition is met then user agents MUST NOT expose the aria-roledescription.
17:27:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: apply the new text above to replace the second paragraph in the specification.
17:28:15 <MichaelC> jd: this needs more review cycles, but if approved I´ll close the action / issue
17:28:26 <MichaelC> will do on the list
17:28:34 <MichaelC> rs: let me know if it needs to come back in a meeting
17:28:48 <MichaelC> topic: Keyboard shortcut help
17:28:54 <MichaelC> action-1642?
17:28:54 <trackbot> action-1642 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Create aria-keyshortcut proposal to group -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
17:28:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1642
17:28:58 <MichaelC> issue-711?
17:28:58 <trackbot> issue-711 -- Expose Keyboard Shortcut help information to ATs -- open
17:28:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/711
17:29:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0029.html
17:30:07 <MichaelC> rs: HTML trying to create an access key
17:30:21 <MichaelC> this issue goes back 10 years
17:30:28 <MichaelC> we knew the accesskey attribute had problems
17:30:42 <MichaelC> proposed an access element
17:30:49 <MichaelC> brought to XHTML WG
17:30:56 <MichaelC> but the scene changed
17:31:13 <MichaelC> but we´ve been talking about access keys ever since, but not managed to get anything done
17:31:20 <MichaelC> good reasons to take up
17:31:24 <MichaelC> want to be able to remap keys
17:31:36 <MichaelC> on user side, in order not to conflict with AT
17:31:44 <MichaelC> and associate description
17:31:50 <MichaelC> but that´s just for moving focus
17:31:59 <Stefan> +q
17:32:25 <MichaelC> but now we´ve got shortcuts on elements that have a role and label, and activate
17:32:41 <MichaelC> so need the key to activate not just focus
17:32:45 <MichaelC> but ARIA doesn´t allow that
17:32:53 <MichaelC> because it doesn´t define mainstream UI
17:33:12 <MichaelC> so doing this in HTML with access key makes sense
17:33:15 <MichaelC> but no progress in years
17:33:44 <MichaelC> so my proposal is to put stuff in ARIA spec
17:34:00 <MichaelC> and make it optional but hopeful that host language would say ¨go ahead and implement in mainstream UI¨
17:34:17 <MichaelC> do have valid use cases for remapping
17:34:36 <MichaelC> ack s
17:34:48 <Stefan> Need Concept Parallel to that in HTML next
17:34:55 <Stefan> Must think of Other Agents than AT
17:35:01 <Stefan> Split into aria-hotkey and aria-accesskey
17:35:48 <MichaelC> ss: should parallel the HTML design pattern
17:35:59 <MichaelC> consider how UAs expose the hot keys
17:36:23 <MichaelC> split properties to separate focus from activate
17:36:30 <MichaelC> hotkey to trigger function, access key to set focus
17:36:56 <MichaelC> rs: we weren´t charged to create ¨accesskey¨ in ARIA, just a shortcut
17:37:13 <MichaelC> bg: there´s access key, and access key label
17:37:30 <MichaelC> <news to many>
17:37:53 <MichaelC> the label is supposed to grab native browser keys and stuff
17:38:15 <MichaelC> rs: I don´t use accesskey because of how messed up it is
17:38:33 <MichaelC> have some UA interest on this
17:39:23 <MichaelC> do you all agree ARIA should not specify UA behavior?
17:39:40 <MichaelC> <silence=consent>
17:40:01 <MichaelC> so that´s a position that has not changed
17:40:28 <MichaelC> Ok to put this in a branch for further review?
17:40:32 <MichaelC> <support>
17:41:02 <MichaelC> sounds like the next step, then we need explicit review from the UA folks
17:41:27 <MichaelC> note that in the current approach, it would only be available to AT
17:41:32 <MichaelC> but UAs could expose
17:41:43 <MichaelC> jn: or extensions, or special script library
17:42:30 <MichaelC> I´d like to take it further, and provide a description of what a shortcut does, not necessarily tied to an element
17:42:42 <MichaelC> ss: I proposed that, response was could use aria-describedby
17:42:53 <clown> quoting Rich:  "The AT will have access to the label and descriptions for the widget"
17:43:14 <MichaelC> rs: I meant that enough information is available, not that you use aria-describedby specifically
17:43:21 <MichaelC> ss: that requires an additional step
17:43:33 <MichaelC> a descriptive string would be useful
17:43:38 <MichaelC> rs: gotta figure out where to map it
17:43:46 <MichaelC> adds to the set of descriptions we provide
17:43:53 <MichaelC> js: aria-hint
17:43:55 <MichaelC> fe: aria-help
17:44:09 <MichaelC> jd: some platforms have an actions interface to get mappings
17:44:43 <MichaelC> rs: CS will bring up control patterns
17:45:19 <MichaelC> rs: I´d like to get review on the current first, then address whether to tackle a description
17:46:19 <MichaelC> mc: agree with agressively seek review
17:46:24 <clown> issue-406
17:46:24 <trackbot> issue-406 -- Proposal for new aria-hint property. (Previously proposed as @aria-help) -- open
17:46:24 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
17:47:24 <MichaelC> rs: let´s put this in a review branch, with a note about needing to get back to descriptions
17:48:13 <MichaelC> action-1642: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jun/0029.html
17:48:13 <trackbot> Notes added to action-1642 Create aria-keyshortcut proposal to group.
17:49:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/17
17:49:55 <MichaelC> topic: Actions review
17:51:01 <MichaelC> rs: issues list is growing
17:51:08 <MichaelC> mc: time for another triage to push stuff to 2.0
17:51:40 <MichaelC> rs: yes, and we´re moving up the 2.0 timeframe anyways so won´t be forever
17:54:51 <MichaelC> close action-1320
17:54:51 <trackbot> Closed action-1320.
17:55:12 <clown> action-1380?
17:55:12 <trackbot> action-1380 -- Joanmarie Diggs to #presentation should mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector images in relation to ACTION-1379 -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
17:55:12 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1380
17:55:16 <MichaelC> don´t think mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements will go anywhere
17:55:37 <clown> action-1379?
17:55:37 <trackbot> action-1379 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to TAC should cover rendered descendants from external sources: svg, iframe, etc. (Compose text and get final review form ARIA subteam) -- due 2015-02-13 -- OPEN
17:55:37 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1379
17:56:29 <clown> action-1405?
17:56:29 <trackbot> action-1405 -- James Craig to For issue-526 modify spec. to allow non-global attrs to apply to host language elements having the correct aria semantics -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
17:56:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1405
18:00:29 <clown> action-1416?
18:00:29 <trackbot> action-1416 -- James Craig to Include definitions for terms used as first word of all attr definitions (defines, identifies, indicates) -- due 2014-04-07 -- OPEN
18:00:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1416
18:04:34 <clown> action-1424?
18:04:34 <trackbot> action-1424 -- James Craig to Propose spec text for generic/general/??? role (computed role of html:div, html:span, svg:g, etc) and clearly explain explicit usage of this role is not common, and clearly explain relationship to group and none role. -- due 2014-04-21 -- OPEN
18:04:34 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1424
18:06:47 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/11-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:09:10 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/11-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
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