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14:57:40 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-hcls-irc
14:57:42 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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14:57:44 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
14:57:44 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:45 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
14:57:45 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2015
14:57:51 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has now started
14:57:58 <Zakim> +DBooth
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15:01:47 <Lloyd> Lloyd has joined #HCLS
15:02:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:27 <Lloyd> zakim, ipcaller is lloyd
15:02:27 <Zakim> +lloyd; got it
15:03:19 <rhausam> rhausam has joined #HCLS
15:05:33 <Tony> Tony has joined #HCLS
15:06:00 <Zakim> + +1.978.794.aaaa
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15:06:24 <Zakim> + +1.604.250.aabb
15:06:32 <dbooth> zakim, aaaa is Tony
15:06:32 <Zakim> +Tony; got it
15:06:52 <dbooth> zakim, aabb is pknapp
15:06:52 <Zakim> +pknapp; got it
15:07:05 <Zakim> + +1.801.949.aacc
15:07:46 <dbooth> zakim, aacc is rhausam
15:07:46 <Zakim> +rhausam; got it
15:07:47 <rhausam> zakim, aacc is rhausam
15:07:48 <Zakim> sorry, rhausam, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
15:07:50 <Zakim> + +1.678.999.aadd
15:08:06 <dbooth> zakim, aadd is bpech
15:08:06 <Zakim> +bpech; got it
15:08:59 <Zakim> + +1.801.810.aaee
15:09:04 <dbooth> Topic: Approve Minutes of previous meeting
15:09:09 <rhausam> zakim, aaee is rhausam
15:09:09 <Zakim> +rhausam; got it
15:09:19 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20150602
15:09:20 <Zakim> -rhausam
15:09:57 <bpech> paul knapp: jumps in for approval of minutes
15:10:42 <bpech> dbooth makes motion, tony seconds to approve minutes
15:10:44 <dbooth> APPROVED: Minutes of June 2
15:10:49 <bpech> minutes approved
15:11:09 <dbooth> Topic:  FHIR element ordering
15:11:29 <bpech> dbooth: question about element ordering, choices ordered llist ontology or native rdf
15:12:00 <dbooth> Here is OLO: http://smiy.sourceforge.net/olo/spec/orderedlistontology.html
15:12:01 <Zakim> -rhausam.a
15:12:20 <bpech> tony: if worried only about content of sequence but not the sequence itself, why not use a data type?
15:12:44 <bpech> dbooth:ordering important in some cases
15:13:19 <bpech> tony: in xml, just says sequence in this order not why
15:13:30 <Zakim> +rhausam
15:13:46 <bpech> lloyd:meaningful order would be found in the resource
15:13:46 <dbooth> or native rdf:List : http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_list
15:13:52 <Zakim> -rhausam
15:14:19 <dbooth> See comparisons here: http://goo.gl/8PNuAG
15:15:09 <bpech> dbooth: there are some patterns or data types that do allow sequencing
15:15:16 <Zakim> +rhausam
15:15:55 <bpech> tony:mostly I do not want to escalate the complexity
15:16:35 <bpech> dbooth:we could explicity number items to designate the required order
15:17:11 <bpech> dbooth:could use rdf list
15:18:33 <bpech> tony:take codeable concept with multiple codes within, so you have a set of assertions with multiple concepts
15:19:50 <dbooth>   :obs1 a fhir:Observation ;
15:19:51 <dbooth>     fhir:Observation.name ( :coding1 :coding2 :coding3 ) .
15:19:58 <bpech> tony:we have a list of object property assertions that need to accounted for
15:22:00 <bpech> dbooth: the thing in parantheses is an rdf list
15:22:26 <bpech> the point is to somehow capture the ordering
15:22:58 <bpech> dbooth: we need to come up with fhir specific examples
15:23:17 <bpech> tony and david will work on this offline
15:23:23 <dbooth> ACTION: Tony and David to create FHIR list examples
15:23:23 <trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
15:24:04 <bpech> continue with side by side examples
15:24:06 <dbooth> Topic: Side-by-side example
15:24:07 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/images/2/25/FHIR_RDF_Sample_side_by_side_comparisons.pdf
15:24:35 <Zakim> + +1.512.680.aaff
15:24:53 <dbooth> zakim, aaff is Darrell
15:24:53 <Zakim> +Darrell; got it
15:25:40 <dbooth> Tony: This version uses the blank node approach we decided upon
15:25:53 <bpech> tony: this includes the decision to include blank node
15:26:01 <bpech> blank nodes
15:26:17 <dbooth> line 380
15:26:49 <dbooth> line 406: <status value="confirmed"/>
15:27:18 <Zakim> +ericP
15:28:00 <dbooth> lloyd, why line 413 is type confirmed and not a codeableconcept?
15:28:04 <dbooth> tony: it could be
15:28:26 <dbooth> lloyd: binding needs to be to an enumeration of allowable values.
15:28:56 <dbooth> ... Because you can have terminologies with the same codes, and one includes one code and one excludes the other.
15:29:08 <dbooth> ... The Class represents the concept; the instance represents the code.
15:29:17 <dbooth> ... Valueset binds to a list of codes, not concepts.
15:30:01 <dbooth> ... The instance of coding (this system, version, etc) implies a class, which is the concept.
15:30:55 <dbooth> ... The class is the concept.  You can't use the class in the valueset, because i could have three different codings with equiv classes.  But from a valueset perspective you might allow one and not another.
15:31:38 <dbooth> ... If I say that these two snomed classes are equiv, then i cannot negate that.  but i need to be able to negate that, to say that one is allowed and another not.
15:32:46 <dbooth> ... Valuesets would not use classes at all.
15:33:41 <dbooth> ... Valuesets can be defined based on concept hierarchies though.
15:33:44 <bpech> valuesets have to be defined based on enumeration of set of codings allowed
15:35:19 <dbooth> q+ to say it sounds like a valueset would still be represented as a class -- the class whose members are the allowable codings
15:35:37 <dbooth> ack dbooth
15:35:37 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say it sounds like a valueset would still be represented as a class -- the class whose members are the allowable codings
15:36:46 <bpech> so on line 413 what needs to change
15:36:53 <dbooth> dbooth: what needs to change on line 413? "fhir:AllergyIntolerance.status [ rdf:type <http://hl7.org/fhir/allergy-intolerance-status/confirmed>"
15:37:14 <dbooth> lloyd: Need to go back to using a CodeableConcept for all of these.
15:37:49 <dbooth> ... Also need a static assertion at the resource level saying there is only one coding allowed, because it's a code rather than a CodeableConcept, and the System has a fixed value.
15:38:02 <dbooth> ... No, actually system isn't fixed.
15:38:39 <dbooth> ... You'd enumerable the possible (Code system + code) pairs, and assert that the code has to be one of those.
15:39:24 <dbooth> ... fhir:code would be a specialization of CodeableThing.
15:39:58 <dbooth> tony: then the value rolls up to the type.
15:41:18 <dbooth> tony: Green on line 413 shows that it can be confirmed.
15:41:47 <dbooth> ... And the class is the concatenation of the coding system and code, on line 413
15:43:44 <dbooth> dbooth: This would restrict system URIs, for example to prohibit a # in the URI (so that a hash can later be appended)
15:43:58 <dbooth> lloyd: This was discussed last week on the FHIR list.
15:44:35 <dbooth> ... For most of FHIR it is irrelevant, because we never combine the system and code into a URI.
15:45:22 <dbooth> ... The topic came up in having a list of codes and wanting to turn them into options, which would involve combining the system and code.
15:45:42 <dbooth> ... Also discuss whether system must be a legal URI.
15:45:48 <dbooth> s/discuss/discussed/
15:46:49 <dbooth> lloyd: we could make a recommendation to the discussion.
15:47:04 <dbooth> ... One challenge is that a code may contain pretty much anything.
15:47:36 <dbooth> ... We'll need to use an escaped version of the code when appending, because a code can contain spaces or other things.
15:48:27 <dbooth> lloyd: But we only have control over the URIs for the FHIR-defined systems.
15:49:23 <dbooth> ... But the in the base RDF, this issue does not come up, because we only use the code.
15:49:35 <dbooth> ... (It comes up only after inference)
15:51:09 <dbooth> q+ to say I think the receiving system would get only the base URI (pre-inference)
15:51:21 <dbooth> s/URI/RDF/
15:52:24 <dbooth> ack dbooth
15:52:24 <Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say I think the receiving system would get only the base URI (pre-inference)
15:53:14 <dbooth> lloyd: we'll allow for both.  If the inferred data is there, then it will be included.
15:53:59 <dbooth> ... Systems can negotiate about whether to include it.
15:55:12 <dbooth> ... It would be included in a FHIR extension.
15:56:33 <dbooth> dbooth: That would also address another issue that I had not yet brought up, which is to have a FHIR extension that enables arbitrary RDF to be carried.
15:57:17 <dbooth> lines 419-426
15:58:07 <dbooth> tony: This will now be a set of instances
15:58:18 <dbooth> lloyd: Really a set of instance constraints.
15:58:36 <dbooth> ... Talking about instances from the perspective of their properties.
15:59:00 <dbooth> tony: A set of allowable combination of properties.
15:59:50 <dbooth> paul: If RDf is encoded in an extension, would that violate the idea that RDF should only hold the same info as other serializations?
16:00:13 <dbooth> lloyd: no, because the the info would still be there.
16:00:26 <Zakim> -pknapp
16:00:29 <dbooth> Topic: Logistics
16:01:07 <dbooth> eric: Need to abandon zakim in the next couple of weeks.  want to try webex tomorrow instead.
16:01:26 <dbooth> ... zakim is being decommissioned because MIT does not want to pay for the lines that it was using.
16:03:39 <Zakim> -bpech
16:04:30 <Zakim> -Darrell
16:05:20 <ericP> webex for tomorrow and on: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5cd1bd8bb36825b9c4b369fd664bbb62 dial-up: +1-617-324-0000 Access code: 645 777 110 Meeting password: 4257
16:06:58 <dbooth> Topic: More on codings
16:08:50 <dbooth> lloyd: There will be a class for CodeableConcept,  the valueset and for each member of the valueset, such as "confirmed"
16:10:43 <dbooth> dbooth: Is there more followup we should do for system URIs?
16:11:42 <dbooth> lloyd: For fhir-defined system URIs, we can constrain them and use hashes for a concept URI to do directly to its definition.
16:12:31 <dbooth> ... But for others we have no control over the authoritative URIs that other systems will use for concepts.
16:13:23 <dbooth> dbooth: Could allow URI transformation rules or templates to be defined.
16:13:49 <dbooth> ... Each system could define its URI template system.
16:14:52 <dbooth> ISSUE: Should we define URI template guidance for vocabularies (coding system + code)?
16:14:53 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-11 - Should we define uri template guidance for vocabularies (coding system + code)?.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/issues/11/edit>.
16:15:08 <dbooth> Topic: References
16:15:40 <dbooth> eric: Lloyd said that references are only unique within what?
16:16:30 <dbooth> lloyd: A ref can point to one of three things: 1. a contained resource (using a hashtag).  Not an XML ID because the IDs are only unique within the containing resource, which might be contained within a group.
16:16:53 <dbooth> eric: E.g., an atom feed with a bunch of query results.
16:17:16 <dbooth> lloyd: yes.
16:17:25 <dbooth> eric: Would each entry have a unique identifier?
16:17:57 <dbooth> lloyd: yes, each must have a resource ID, either a full URI, or relative to a base declared on the bundle itself.
16:18:37 <dbooth> ... E.g., I might have a bundle defined, and resource entries with entries of patients/5 and observations/3, which translate into full URIs.
16:18:54 <dbooth> eric: can it start with a hash?
16:19:05 <dbooth> lloyd: Only to a contained resource.
16:19:55 <dbooth> lloyd: If the ref is to contained, it must start with a hash.
16:20:25 <dbooth> ... If it is to a bundle then i may be partial URI or full URL or URN.
16:20:41 <dbooth> ... If it is external then it may be a partial URL or full URL, but not URN.
16:21:11 <dbooth> ... To determine whether it is external you look inside the bundle.  If it isn't there, then it's external.
16:21:32 <dbooth> ... The tricky bit is completing the relative part.
16:22:03 <dbooth> ... RDF always uses full URIs, but XML and JSON use relative URIs.
16:22:49 <dbooth> ... If you don't re-relativize the URI when round tripping is done, the it will break round tripping.
16:22:55 <dbooth> dbooth: yuck
16:23:41 <dbooth> lloyd: Relative URLs are a pain, but without them you end up annoying developers with long URLs all the time.
16:24:31 <dbooth> dbooth: Possible to define a canonicalization prior to signatures, using full long URIs?
16:25:14 <dbooth> lloyd: talked about that, but hasn't received a lot of bandwidth.  But you can raise this, because it would simplify the RDF.
16:25:45 <dbooth> ... In DSTU2 we have base declared twice, and it's evil to do XSLT matching.
16:26:08 <dbooth> ... I'm not a fan of base.
16:29:51 <dbooth> lloyd: Would need to define a canonicalization algorithm
16:30:15 <dbooth> ... Might also help with element ordering, where it is not semantically significant.
16:30:36 <dbooth> dbooth: Would also be useful to explicitly mark elements where ordering is semantically significant
16:31:39 <dbooth> ISSUE: Should we ask FHIR to define canonicalization to be use prior to signatures, to make URIs absolute and put elements in predictable order?
16:31:39 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-12 - Should we ask fhir to define canonicalization to be use prior to signatures, to make uris absolute and put elements in predictable order?.  Please complete additional details at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/issues/12/edit>.
16:31:59 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
16:31:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, lloyd, Tony, rhausam, ericP
16:32:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see Tony, rhausam, Lloyd, MacTed, Zakim, RRSAgent, dbooth, cloudcell_, remote, trackbot, ericP
16:36:09 <dbooth> i/what needs to change on line 413/Scribe: dbooth
16:36:46 <dbooth> i/11:00AM has now started/Scribe: bpech
16:36:54 <dbooth> Chair: David Booth and Paul Knapp
16:37:43 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
16:37:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, lloyd, Tony, rhausam, ericP
16:37:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Tony, rhausam, Lloyd, MacTed, Zakim, RRSAgent, dbooth, cloudcell_, remote, trackbot, ericP
16:38:05 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
16:38:06 <Zakim> -Tony
16:38:10 <Zakim> -DBooth
16:38:12 <Zakim> -ericP
16:38:17 <Zakim> -rhausam
16:38:29 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:38:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
16:43:17 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, lloyd, in SW_HCLS()11:00AM
16:43:19 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
16:43:19 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, lloyd, +1.978.794.aaaa, +1.604.250.aabb, Tony, pknapp, +1.801.949.aacc, rhausam, +1.678.999.aadd, bpech, +1.801.810.aaee, +1.512.680.aaff, Darrell, ericP
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17:46:29 <dbooth> s/Topic: References/Topic: FHIR References
17:51:45 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:51:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
17:52:53 <dbooth> Present: David Booth, Lloyd McKenzie, Tony Mallia, Paul Knapp, Rob Hausam, Brian Pech, Darrell, EricP
17:52:58 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:52:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
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