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12:57:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-irc
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12:57:56 <LJWatson> zakim, this will be 2742
12:57:56 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, LJWatson
13:01:05 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:01:38 <LJWatson> meeting: SVG A11y TF meeting
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13:03:28 <LJWatson> zakim, this is 2742
13:03:28 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not see a conference named '2742' in progress or scheduled at this time
13:03:52 <LJWatson> zakim, which meeting is this?
13:03:52 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, LJWatson.
13:04:19 <LJWatson> zakim, meeting?
13:04:19 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, LJWatson.
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13:04:41 <LJWatson> zakim, this is svg-a11y
13:04:41 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not see a conference named 'svg-a11y' in progress or scheduled at this time
13:05:44 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:05:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:06:12 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/Navigation#Amelia.27s_Proposal_.26_Related_Brainstorming
13:06:17 <LJWatson> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
13:06:54 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:06:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:07:20 <cpandhi> Can you hear me
13:07:37 <LJWatson> chair: Fred Esch
13:07:46 <LJWatson> present+ Fred Esch
13:07:51 <LJWatson> present+ LJWatson
13:07:57 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:07:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:10:40 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg-a11y
13:10:52 <LJWatson> present+ cpandh
13:11:03 <AmeliaBR> present+ AmeliaBR
13:11:08 <LJWatson> present+ Amelia BR
13:12:12 <LJWatson> TOPIC: Proposed symbol and icon roles
13:12:26 <shepazu> be right there
13:13:10 <fesch> https://www.w3.org/wiki/ARIA_roles_for_graphics
13:13:19 <LJWatson> ABR: The <use> element creates a copy of an original graphic. It's used a lot with the <symbol> element.
13:14:10 <LJWatson> ... Browsers treat <use> as atoic - they don't look at the copy. Firefox may be the exception.
13:14:22 <LJWatson> FE: If you put <title> inside <symbol>, the title is never shown.
13:14:51 <LJWatson> ABR: Yes, so accessibility in the original content is not transferred to the cloned copy.
13:15:08 <LJWatson> ... So the question is whether the accessibility tree of the original content be cloned as well?
13:15:19 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:15:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:16:27 <LJWatson> ... There are instances where you would want the acc tree to be cloned - like a <symbol> that's reused frequently. There are times when you wouldn't - like <text> duplicated for shadow effect or similar.
13:17:34 <LJWatson> ... We could access the acc tree with ARIA though.
13:18:31 <LJWatson> ... Perhaps aria-owns, except it should only be for a single parent.
13:18:43 <LJWatson> FE: Single inheritance as opposed to multiple inheritance.
13:19:19 <LJWatson> LW: Sounds like the acc tree clone for <use> is something we need to address, irrespective of the icon v symbol conversation?
13:19:40 <LJWatson> ABR: Yes. We'll need to look at how/when the acc tree is cloned.
13:19:47 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:19:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:20:31 <LJWatson> BAR: Wonder if people want to think on this for a bit?
13:20:37 <LJWatson> LW: Yes, good idea.
13:20:47 <AmeliaBR> s/BAR/ABR/
13:20:51 <LJWatson> DS: I prefer not to think about stuff too much, better to put something out for review.
13:21:08 <LJWatson> ... Let's go ahead and resolve.
13:22:21 <LJWatson> s/TOPIC: Proposed symbol and icon roles/TOPIC: <use> element clones/
13:22:35 <LJWatson> ABR: We can use aria-describedby to associate the original <desc> with the clone.
13:22:58 <LJWatson> ... the element you're copying will have the id.
13:23:59 <LJWatson> FE: Why wouldn't you directly inherit the atomic behaviour of the element being inherited - like <symbol>?
13:24:59 <LJWatson> LW: What about a boolean attribute that tells the browser whether to clone the acc tree or not?
13:26:23 <LJWatson> ABR: We could make it role based.
13:26:49 <LJWatson> present+ Jason White
13:26:59 <LJWatson> FE: Like group with children, or one child?
13:27:24 <LJWatson> JW: A screen reader might not play well with a group role with a single child.
13:27:54 <LJWatson> ABR: If the SVg doesn't have <title> or <desc> it would map to role="none". It would be transparent for accessibility purposes.
13:28:02 <shepazu_> shepazu_ has joined #svg-a11y
13:28:09 <fesch> q?
13:28:11 <LJWatson> FE: That sounds like desireable behaviour.
13:28:17 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:28:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:28:39 <LJWatson> ... ,use> is just a pointer. So unless you say it's presentation only, the <use> itself doesn't add anything itself.
13:29:03 <LJWatson> ABR: Recap... we want the browser to copy the acc tree of the cloned content.
13:29:22 <LJWatson> ... The <use> element would behave as an SVG group, where it would only have a specific role if it contained acc content.
13:29:32 <LJWatson> FE: You could assign it a presentation role, so it does nothing.
13:29:52 <LJWatson> DS: Not convinced that's a good idea.
13:29:55 <LJWatson> ABR: Which part?
13:30:17 <LJWatson> DS: It's technically possible to do this, in most cases <use> is just an atomic symbol.
13:30:35 <LJWatson> FE: YOu can reference anything using <use> though?
13:30:39 <LJWatson> DS: Yes.
13:31:00 <LJWatson> ... and you could have something that says "pay attention to this thing", but that should not be the default.
13:31:39 <LJWatson> LW: That's why I was thinking about an explicit way of informing the browser it needed to inherit the acc tree.
13:32:10 <LJWatson> ABR: To make the default case easier, we could say if there was a <title> or <desc> that was carried through.
13:32:28 <LJWatson> FE: <use> doesn't need to be an extra layer.
13:32:37 <LJWatson> ... Unless you explicitly add stuff.
13:33:05 <LJWatson> ABR: It's one or the other. You don't want a couble layer, but if the <use> has the same title/desc as the copied content, for the acc tree that should have the same effect.
13:33:43 <LJWatson> ... current practice is that the title/desc have to go on the <use>, because the browsers don't clone them automatically.
13:34:11 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:34:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:34:17 <fesch> q?
13:36:22 <LJWatson> FE: If you have a decision tree, with text/labels inside symbols. Can't label the symbol itself, because you can't then replicate the symbol.
13:36:34 <LJWatson> ... so you add the label through the <use>.
13:36:42 <LJWatson> DS: Don't follow.
13:36:50 <LJWatson> FE: A decision tree has symbols.
13:37:01 <LJWatson> ... Symbols inside nodes will often be text.
13:37:41 <LJWatson> ... You can't associate the label with the symbol, because the symbol will be reused (potentially with different labels).
13:37:55 <LJWatson> ... So the label has to be applied with the <use> element, not the <symbol> element.
13:38:02 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes.
13:38:02 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes.', LJWatson.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
13:38:15 <LJWatson> DS: Doesn't presentational mean it's ignored completely?
13:38:24 <LJWatson> ABR: It means that element is ignored, but not child elements.
13:38:50 <LJWatson> DS: The fact you're using a symbol is meaningful.
13:38:54 <LJWatson> FE: You're right.
13:39:25 <LJWatson> DS: So I don't think this is a good use case. Most times I've seen <use> used, the thing is not presentational.
13:42:07 <LJWatson> LW: If <use> can be used to clone any kind of content, we need to cater for any degree of accessiblity inheritance.
13:42:36 <LJWatson> DS: Would argue there are better ways to use <use> than to clone complex content.
13:43:42 <LJWatson> ... This we should inherit the <title> and <desc> of the original, and leave it there.
13:44:11 <LJWatson> s/... This we should inherit the <title> and <desc> of the original, and leave it there./... Think we should inherit the <title> and <desc> of the original, and leave it there./
13:44:33 <LJWatson> ABR: So there should be a direct aria-labelledby and aria-describedby relationship, but we wouldn't copiy the entire acc tree.
13:44:41 <LJWatson> DS: Strikes me as the right balance.
13:45:19 <LJWatson> LW: Concern is that although Doug is right about the way <use> should be used, is that what developers are actually doing out there?
13:47:01 <LJWatson> ABR: The capabilities aren't really there in browsers to support it anyway, so I don't think it happens much.
13:47:18 <LJWatson> DS: Don't think any script libraries do it either.
13:47:38 <LJWatson> FE: You could use nested <use> elements right?
13:47:44 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:47:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:47:58 <LJWatson> ABR: Yes.
13:48:22 <LJWatson> ... That's a real use case - constructing complex symbols using multiple individual symbols.
13:48:45 <LJWatson> DS: You'd want the composite information in the description.
13:50:05 <AmeliaBR> Proposed Resolution: A <use> element has an implicite labelledby & describedby relationship with the element it is re-using, but there is no clone of the accessibility tree
13:51:23 <LJWatson> JW: I have an issue about whether something has children that should be included in the acc tree as part of its acc role.
13:52:01 <LJWatson> ABR: We're saying you'd never clone the acc tree through <use>, so there would never be children.
13:52:15 <LJWatson> ... Implementors will like this because it negates the need for code to clone the acc tree.
13:52:34 <LJWatson> ... It just extends the acc name/desc computation.
13:52:49 <LJWatson> ... YOu can give it a role, but it'll never have child elements.
13:53:08 <LJWatson> JW: Want someone to establish whether there are any counter examples to this proposal.
13:53:41 <LJWatson> ABR: A <use> element never has children in the DOM that will be in the acc tree, other than <title> and <desc>. Question is whether we should clone the visual children in the acc tree.
13:53:58 <LJWatson> ... It is simpler not to. We don't have use cases to justify that extra complexity.
13:54:25 <LJWatson> JW: But if you need to be able to navigate/interact with the content, not in UI sense, but navigation/reading sense, then there needs to be an acc tree.
13:54:57 <fesch> q?
13:55:05 <LJWatson> DS: The whole point of <use> - in a visual/graphical sense, is that you don't drill down into it. So it's the same in a structural sense. So we're just expressing that at the acc layer.
13:55:09 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:55:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:55:52 <LJWatson> ... We're mimicing the experience for sighted users within the acc tree.
13:56:38 <LJWatson> ABR: On a tangent, this isn't in the spec but... we could add an attribute on <use> so it becomes a proper clone. Like with HTML templates for Web Components.
13:57:51 <LJWatson> LW: That's the idea I was thinking of earlier, but at the content level instead of just acc layer.
13:58:06 <LJWatson> DS: Could just use the same semantics as HTML.
13:58:22 <LJWatson> ABR: So that would cover those use cases when <use> isn't quite appropriate.
13:58:38 <LJWatson> JW: That would satisfy my concerns.
13:58:52 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:58:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
13:59:10 <LJWatson> RESOLUTION: A <use> element has an implicitlabelledby & describedby relationship with the element it is re-using, but there is no clone of the accessibility tree.
13:59:18 <LJWatson> +1
13:59:31 <LJWatson> DS: Hearing no objections, the resolution passes.
13:59:39 <LJWatson> rrsagent, make minutes
13:59:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/05-svg-a11y-minutes.html LJWatson
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